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geoff geoff is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On 16/02/2016 2:28 AM, JackA wrote:


Of course adequate tools existed - none of it is rocket-surgery ! The
problem was the rush to simply get stuff out asap.


Funny!!!



No, absolutely the case.


geoff

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geoff geoff is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On 16/02/2016 3:59 AM, JackA wrote:

No, they weren't that awful, but a far cry competing with vinyl.
At least I found on my own, it more or less had to do with a
couple different Sony PCM machines. It seems most were concerned
about distortion, and used conservative settings of those
machines.


No.


Yes....

"With the introduction of the CD in 1982, the cutting engineer was
now finally known as a mastering engineer was forced into the digital
age using a modified video tape recorder called the Sony 1630 to
deliver a digital CD master to the replicator, but still utilizing
many of the analog tools from the vinyl past from EQ and compression.
The 1989 introduction of the Sonic Solutions Digital Audio
Workstation with pre-mastering software provided a CD master instead
of a bulky 1630".


So what's this 'Conservative settings' ?

geoff
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:42:04 AM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
On 15/02/2016 15:41, JackA wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-5, John Williamson wrote:
Knowing HOW slow it took to make a 128kbps MP3, I say that was the
primary cause of this 128k bitrate.

At the time, it was the best compromise available between quality and
transmission bitrate, as the Fraunhofer coding was originally developed
for phone companies to use on their (Then cutting edge) systems. At the
time, it was the highest bitrate that could be converted in real time,
if I remember correctly.

You say Vocals, this person can't hear much difference!...
http://forums.winamp.com/archive/ind.../t-229919.html

I opted 160k, because it's tough to notice much difference, even 320k!

I don't believe your ears or my ears can detect minor amounts of
distortion.

I can tell the difference between 320kbps mp3 and CD playback with close
to 100% accuracy, even on a laptop using decent headphones.



I find that reasonably hard to believe.


- SHAME WE CAN'T TEST HIM.

Jack


So can a
number of people I've tried the experiment on.


This too. Are you sure you're doing all the experimental cue control
properly? No Clever Hans effect*?

*where people get tells from how the experiment is carried out.



160kbps stands out like a
very sore thumb in this context.



It's certainly different.

--
Les Cargill


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[email protected] thekmanrocks@gmail.com is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

geoff asked: "So what's this 'Conservative settings' ? "

Never peaking above -6dBfs? I own
a few CDs like that. Whole thing
was recorded at insanely low levels.
  #45   Report Post  
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:58:07 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 16/02/2016 4:41 AM, JackA wrote:


Knowing HOW slow it took to make a 128kbps MP3, I say that was the
primary cause of this 128k bitrate.


Slow ? A typical song should take far less than a minute. Even 10 years ago.


You weren't even around when MP3 hit the scene. Most all of us didn't know.
I'm talking Win 95 days and a DOS encoder, took FOREVER to encode a single song. Maybe a 120MHz CPU!



I don't believe your ears or my ears can detect minor amounts of
distortion.


Especially on playback equipment that masks it.


Fidelity varies all over them place, let's not go there.


But can far more easily detect missing detail, frequencies (esp upper
mid and high) , and bizarre 'phasing' effects.


Now, way back in Napster peer-peer days, I generally settled for 160k MP3s minimum. But, there was a 96k MP3 that sounded better than most higher bit rate MP3s will sound. Why I claim mastering quality has a LOT to do with MP3 sound.

Jack

geoff




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JackA JackA is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 2:50:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
geoff asked: "So what's this 'Conservative settings' ? "

Never peaking above -6dBfs? I own
a few CDs like that. Whole thing
was recorded at insanely low levels.


A good CD for you, UK, The Pure Sound Of Elton John!! Mixed w/o any enhancements. I found it ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ -L- boring.

Jack
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On 15/02/2016 16:49, Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:


So can a
number of people I've tried the experiment on.


This too. Are you sure you're doing all the experimental cue control
properly? No Clever Hans effect*?

One of them was trying to tell me that mp3 sounded better until I did an
A/B switch using a live performance that I had recorded and converted
myself, then he changed his tune. The only difference in the playback
chain was the decoder software, so there was no level fudging to give a
false impression, and the conversion was set for the highest quality I
could manage at 320kbps.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

geoff wrote:
On 16/02/2016 3:59 AM, JackA wrote:

"With the introduction of the CD in 1982, the cutting engineer was
now finally known as a mastering engineer was forced into the digital
age using a modified video tape recorder called the Sony 1630 to
deliver a digital CD master to the replicator, but still utilizing
many of the analog tools from the vinyl past from EQ and compression.
The 1989 introduction of the Sonic Solutions Digital Audio
Workstation with pre-mastering software provided a CD master instead
of a bulky 1630".


So what's this 'Conservative settings' ?


That's also not really correct. The 1630 is the box that sits in front of
the video recorder, it's not the recorder itself. And the 1630 was preceded
by the 1610. And Sony DID offer a very horrible and clumsy editing system
using those machines.

When the Sonic system came out, it was mostly being used for editing digital
data which would then be dumped back through a 1630 machine to ship to the
pressing plant. This got more or less replaced with DDP files on Exabyte
and then PMCDs came a few years later. The PMCD didn't come around until
Kodak finally got a reliable CD-R machine.

But... NONE of this equipment, save occasionally the Sonic workstation, was
ever really used for processing. Throughout this whole evolution, everyone
kept using their analogue processing chains. Most mastering rooms still do.

So none of this statement really has anything at all to do with any processing
that might be done in the mastering room.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

In article ,
wrote:
geoff asked: "So what's this 'Conservative settings' ? "

Never peaking above -6dBfs? I own
a few CDs like that. Whole thing
was recorded at insanely low levels.


You don't get it, do you?
I suspect you never will.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On 16/02/2016 8:52 a.m., JackA wrote:
You weren't even around when MP3 hit the scene.


Que ?!!!

geoff



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JackA JackA is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 2:01:43 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 16/02/2016 3:59 AM, JackA wrote:

No, they weren't that awful, but a far cry competing with vinyl.
At least I found on my own, it more or less had to do with a
couple different Sony PCM machines. It seems most were concerned
about distortion, and used conservative settings of those
machines.

No.


Yes....

"With the introduction of the CD in 1982, the cutting engineer was
now finally known as a mastering engineer was forced into the digital
age using a modified video tape recorder called the Sony 1630 to
deliver a digital CD master to the replicator, but still utilizing
many of the analog tools from the vinyl past from EQ and compression.
The 1989 introduction of the Sonic Solutions Digital Audio
Workstation with pre-mastering software provided a CD master instead
of a bulky 1630".


So what's this 'Conservative settings' ?


I posted the link before, have to find it, from someone who was in the (re)mastering business!!

Jack


geoff


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JackA JackA is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 2:01:43 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 16/02/2016 3:59 AM, JackA wrote:

No, they weren't that awful, but a far cry competing with vinyl.
At least I found on my own, it more or less had to do with a
couple different Sony PCM machines. It seems most were concerned
about distortion, and used conservative settings of those
machines.

No.


Yes....

"With the introduction of the CD in 1982, the cutting engineer was
now finally known as a mastering engineer was forced into the digital
age using a modified video tape recorder called the Sony 1630 to
deliver a digital CD master to the replicator, but still utilizing
many of the analog tools from the vinyl past from EQ and compression.
The 1989 introduction of the Sonic Solutions Digital Audio
Workstation with pre-mastering software provided a CD master instead
of a bulky 1630".


So what's this 'Conservative settings' ?



They referred to the louder as a "hot" mix. Even Sony claimed a few bits lost out of 65+k wouldn't be noticed. Assume this is what Bill Inglot of Rhino Records did (hot mix), though he claimed he just adjusted the tape azimuth better!

Jack

geoff


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

John Williamson wrote:
On 15/02/2016 16:49, Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:


So can a
number of people I've tried the experiment on.


This too. Are you sure you're doing all the experimental cue control
properly? No Clever Hans effect*?

One of them was trying to tell me that mp3 sounded better until I did an
A/B switch using a live performance that I had recorded and converted
myself, then he changed his tune. The only difference in the playback
chain was the decoder software, so there was no level fudging to give a
false impression, and the conversion was set for the highest quality I
could manage at 320kbps.




Interesting - I suspect the material I've compared just does not show up
the differences.

--
Les Cargill
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
On 15/02/2016 16:49, Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:


So can a
number of people I've tried the experiment on.

This too. Are you sure you're doing all the experimental cue control
properly? No Clever Hans effect*?

One of them was trying to tell me that mp3 sounded better until I did an
A/B switch using a live performance that I had recorded and converted
myself, then he changed his tune. The only difference in the playback
chain was the decoder software, so there was no level fudging to give a
false impression, and the conversion was set for the highest quality I
could manage at 320kbps.


Interesting - I suspect the material I've compared just does not show up
the differences.


It seems like the most clear effects are on transients. Fiddles and
harpsichords show the difference up much more obviously, and a sparse
arrangement where the transients can be heard in isolation can make it
that much more clear.

Also anything that has real stereo imaging with phase differences at
lower frequencies seems to get horribly mucked up. Intensity "stereo"
seems to survive the process pretty well.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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geoff geoff is offline
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Default OT Joe Walsh

On 16/02/2016 12:07 p.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
It seems like the most clear effects are on transients. Fiddles and
harpsichords show the difference up much more obviously, and a sparse
arrangement where the transients can be heard in isolation can make it
that much more clear. Also anything that has real stereo imaging with
phase differences at lower frequencies seems to get horribly mucked
up. Intensity "stereo" seems to survive the process pretty well. --scott


Quite handy that a delicately played 6-steel-string acoustic guitar can
get turned into a 12-string-though-a-phasor though ;-)

geoff
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Default OT Joe Walsh

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
On 15/02/2016 16:49, Les Cargill wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

So can a
number of people I've tried the experiment on.

This too. Are you sure you're doing all the experimental cue control
properly? No Clever Hans effect*?

One of them was trying to tell me that mp3 sounded better until I did an
A/B switch using a live performance that I had recorded and converted
myself, then he changed his tune. The only difference in the playback
chain was the decoder software, so there was no level fudging to give a
false impression, and the conversion was set for the highest quality I
could manage at 320kbps.


Interesting - I suspect the material I've compared just does not show up
the differences.


It seems like the most clear effects are on transients. Fiddles and
harpsichords show the difference up much more obviously, and a sparse
arrangement where the transients can be heard in isolation can make it
that much more clear.

Also anything that has real stereo imaging with phase differences at
lower frequencies seems to get horribly mucked up. Intensity "stereo"
seems to survive the process pretty well.
--scott



I just need to do the experiment again.

--
Les Cargill
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