I have a dilemma with 'listener training'. As long term musicians
know, a well trodden path is hard to deviate from. You lose the
ability to listen holistically, and are more prone to reverting to
analytical listening patterns conducive to those musical activities.
You actually start to perceive sound and music in a different way than
"normal". I've known full time musicians who are unable to even listen
to music in a casual sense, anymore.

Now consider Arnie's listener training program. It helps instil
"paths" in peoples conscious awareness. That is exactly the point of
it. Whist this surely helps people to hone in on the particular
differences he's highlighting, once you are walking those "paths" it
becomes increasingly difficult to listen naturally and holistically
again...

Arnie's screams of anguish at the HE2005 debate clearly signifies
agreement with this point![Listener training is..] "a two edged
sword", he says.

So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important question
is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could it be that it
has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your overall listening
skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

Signal wrote:
I have a dilemma with 'listener training'. As long term musicians
know, a well trodden path is hard to deviate from. You lose the
ability to listen holistically, and are more prone to reverting to
analytical listening patterns conducive to those musical activities.
You actually start to perceive sound and music in a different way than
"normal". I've known full time musicians who are unable to even listen
to music in a casual sense, anymore.

Now consider Arnie's listener training program. It helps instil
"paths" in peoples conscious awareness. That is exactly the point of
it. Whist this surely helps people to hone in on the particular
differences he's highlighting, once you are walking those "paths" it
becomes increasingly difficult to listen naturally and holistically
again...

Arnie's screams of anguish at the HE2005 debate clearly signifies
agreement with this point![Listener training is..] "a two edged
sword", he says.

So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important question
is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could it be that it
has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your overall listening
skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?


LOL. Scientists can't win. Either scientific methods are too insensitive
to detect real differences...or they're too intrusive to allow their
'holistic' detection. Leaving *what* as a reliable alternative method for
verifying the reality of differences?

Following your train of logic, one might ask if listening to high-end home
audio 'programs' you to hear and prefer unnatural levels of detail,
imaging and soundstaging, forever ruining the holistic (and often rather
less user-controlled) experience of live music. Sound far-fetched?
Yeah.

Btw, there were no screams of anguish at the HE2005 debate, from Arny or
others. I was there, I'd have remembered. Arny did suddenly shout at one
point, but it was purely theatrical (as well as anti-soporific).


--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee

Signal wrote:
I have a dilemma with 'listener training'. As long term musicians
know, a well trodden path is hard to deviate from. You lose the
ability to listen holistically, and are more prone to reverting to
analytical listening patterns conducive to those musical activities.
You actually start to perceive sound and music in a different way than
"normal". I've known full time musicians who are unable to even listen
to music in a casual sense, anymore.

Now consider Arnie's listener training program. It helps instil
"paths" in peoples conscious awareness. That is exactly the point of
it. Whist this surely helps people to hone in on the particular
differences he's highlighting, once you are walking those "paths" it
becomes increasingly difficult to listen naturally and holistically
again...

Arnie's screams of anguish at the HE2005 debate clearly signifies
agreement with this point![Listener training is..] "a two edged
sword", he says.

So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important question
is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could it be that it
has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your overall listening
skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

This type of issue often comes up in beginning music theory classes. The
teacher will often require an essay from students asking if learning music
theory causes one to lose something in their perception of music. Actually,
the exercise is usually intended to accomplish two things. One, for those
who have little problem learning the material to at least ponder the question
a bit and also prod those who might have trouble learning the material
because they fear a negative impact.

For me, a simple vacation from music and/or sound involving a lot of
physical activity nicely sidesteps the issue altogether letting me come
back refreshed and able to listen freshly and analytically at the same time.
The ability to do that is the bread and butter of any professional
musician or audio specialist.

Signal wrote:
I have a dilemma with 'listener training'. As long term musicians
know, a well trodden path is hard to deviate from. You lose the
ability to listen holistically, and are more prone to reverting to
analytical listening patterns conducive to those musical activities.
You actually start to perceive sound and music in a different way than
"normal". I've known full time musicians who are unable to even listen
to music in a casual sense, anymore.


So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important question
is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could it be that it
has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your overall listening
skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

Working with musicians in a recording studio, I almost immediately
recognized how different we can perceive the same piece. Musicians tend to
listen mainly to their own instrument, they do not really hear what the
others are doing and when mixing down they tend to increase the volume of
their own tracks and produce an unbalanced mix. They also use EQs and other
effects in a strange way, to work out details without considering the whole.
Short, musicians and also directors are absolutly useless and rather
disturbing during mixing, that is why the producer usually sends them home.
I also found that these people rarely own what can be called even a modest
quality playback system, but that might have to do with their financial
situation. They are probably also not so much interested to listen to others
music because it is a "Job" and who wants to continue with it in their free
time?
The professionals rather go to live concerts to judge the talent of playing
than to listen to recorded stuff, and here I have to agree. My boss always
attended concerts to decide whether a group or orchestra was worth
recording, and he was a superb producer with over 60% of his productions
hitting the profit margin opposed to barely 5% in general.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Signal wrote:

Now consider Arnie's listener training program. It helps instil
"paths" in peoples conscious awareness. That is exactly the point of
it. Whist this surely helps people to hone in on the particular
differences he's highlighting, once you are walking those "paths" it
becomes increasingly difficult to listen naturally and holistically
again...


Consider this very conspicuous flaw in your observation:

Listening to prerecorded music is not "natural"

In article , "Ban"
wrote:

Signal wrote:
I have a dilemma with 'listener training'. As long term musicians
know, a well trodden path is hard to deviate from. You lose the
ability to listen holistically, and are more prone to reverting to
analytical listening patterns conducive to those musical activities.
You actually start to perceive sound and music in a different way than
"normal". I've known full time musicians who are unable to even listen
to music in a casual sense, anymore.


So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important question
is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could it be that it
has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your overall listening
skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

Working with musicians in a recording studio, I almost immediately
recognized how different we can perceive the same piece. Musicians tend to
listen mainly to their own instrument, they do not really hear what the
others are doing and when mixing down they tend to increase the volume of
their own tracks and produce an unbalanced mix. They also use EQs and other
effects in a strange way, to work out details without considering the whole.
Short, musicians and also directors are absolutly useless and rather
disturbing during mixing, that is why the producer usually sends them home.
I also found that these people rarely own what can be called even a modest
quality playback system, but that might have to do with their financial
situation. They are probably also not so much interested to listen to others
music because it is a "Job" and who wants to continue with it in their free
time?

About what style (type of music) of musicians are you speaking?

Jenn wrote:
So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important
question is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could
it be that it has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your
overall listening skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

Working with musicians in a recording studio, I almost immediately
recognized how different we can perceive the same piece. Musicians
tend to listen mainly to their own instrument, they do not really
hear what the others are doing and when mixing down they tend to
increase the volume of their own tracks and produce an unbalanced
mix. They also use EQs and other effects in a strange way, to work
out details without considering the whole. Short, musicians and also
directors are absolutly useless and rather disturbing during mixing,
that is why the producer usually sends them home. I also found that
these people rarely own what can be called even a modest quality
playback system, but that might have to do with their financial
situation. They are probably also not so much interested to listen
to others music because it is a "Job" and who wants to continue with
it in their free time?

About what style (type of music) of musicians are you speaking?

I experienced this behaviour with musicians from different styles, chamber
music, Jazz, Folk and Pop. We were mainly recording good Jazz groups for the
ECM label, but also classical ensembles, but not big symphony orchestras,
because of the restrained place in the studio. We did record string/brass
groups(20-30 pcs) for background lines of pop music though, that's where I
made the experience with the conductors.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

In article , "Ban"
wrote:

Jenn wrote:
So, assuming the above is taken as read - the more important
question is... if you 'program' your brain in this fashion, could
it be that it has a detrimental and/or *subversive* effect on your
overall listening skills and/or patterns of listening behaviour?

Working with musicians in a recording studio, I almost immediately
recognized how different we can perceive the same piece. Musicians
tend to listen mainly to their own instrument, they do not really
hear what the others are doing and when mixing down they tend to
increase the volume of their own tracks and produce an unbalanced
mix. They also use EQs and other effects in a strange way, to work
out details without considering the whole. Short, musicians and also
directors are absolutly useless and rather disturbing during mixing,
that is why the producer usually sends them home. I also found that
these people rarely own what can be called even a modest quality
playback system, but that might have to do with their financial
situation. They are probably also not so much interested to listen
to others music because it is a "Job" and who wants to continue with
it in their free time?

About what style (type of music) of musicians are you speaking?

I experienced this behaviour with musicians from different styles, chamber
music, Jazz, Folk and Pop. We were mainly recording good Jazz groups for the
ECM label, but also classical ensembles, but not big symphony orchestras,
because of the restrained place in the studio. We did record string/brass
groups(20-30 pcs) for background lines of pop music though, that's where I
made the experience with the conductors.

Two statements raised my attention:
1. "Musicians tend to listen mainly to their own instrument, they do
not really hear what the others are doing and when mixing down they tend
to increase the volume of their own tracks and produce an unbalanced
mix."

In my classical experience, musicians MUST pay careful attention to what
everyone is doing. That's basic to the skill. My only professional
recording experience on the "pop" level is with a really well-known (for
over 40 years) folk group, and I can assure you that their assistance is
much appreciated in the mix down! Perhaps my experience is limited.

2. About sending the conductor home: Certainly has NEVER been the case
in my experience as either a player or conductor.