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John Smith
 
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL speakers
using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output with a sound
level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s was very noticable.
The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the volume dropped off rapidly. I
was using a late (mid-eighties) Quad 34/303 combination for the test.

What is the most likely cause of this? Is it most likely to be the treble
panels or could there be a loss of voltage to the panels. I believe they
were overhauled by Quad around 1995 but that was before I owned them so I
don't know what was done.

The panels certainly hold a charge well. I switch off the mains to them
while I swapped connections about and when I reconnected them 20-30 minutes
later they still worked for a short time even though I had forgotten to
switch the mains back on.

Regards,

John.


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Phil Allison
 
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


"John Smith"

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL speakers
using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output with a sound
level meter.



** Stepped tones are quite unsuitable for "in room" speaker testing.

Get yourself a CD with pink noise tracks divided into 1/3 octave bands -
like the "Denon Audio Technical CD, 38C39 7147 " It is not an expensive
one.


The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s was very noticable.
The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the volume dropped off rapidly.



** Did you have the mic pointed at and directly on the central axis of the
ESL57 ?

What SPL meter did you use - not the cheap Radio-Shack one I hope ?

Did you set the meter to C weighting ?


What is the most likely cause of this?



** Your test procedure and gear.


BTW

I have been doing just such tests, with pink noise, on a pair of ESL63s
this week.




........ Phil





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Jim Lesurf
 
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL
speakers using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output
with a sound level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s
was very noticable. The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the
volume dropped off rapidly.

[snip]

Actually you may not have a problem with the ESL's per se but with the
listening position. The treble panels in the ESL 'beams' the sound to
one specific spot.


John: Could you tell us more about the microphone and speaker locations,
etc? Also could you give the details of what sound levels you measured and
at what frequencies? My initial reaction is was the same as Mike's, but it
would help us to diagnose/advise if we have more detailed/specific info.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
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John Smith John Smith is offline
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

[This reply got trapped in some e-mail limbo but has re-emerged so I'm
letting it be sent now in the hope someone remembers what were discussing]

Jim, Mike,

I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the make
and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but claimed the
full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net it was on sale
elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough for my needs.

I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount). Each speaker was measured separately
so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would for normal
listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a fixed
frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz). The volume coding is the same
for each track (15dBA below peak I think). For each frequency I noted the
meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings stayed about
the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by 20kHz they were
over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above 10kHz these days but
the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency was playing by the track
number on the CD player.

Does this help or do you need the actual meter readings?

Thanks for the interest.

John.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL
speakers using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output
with a sound level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s
was very noticable. The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the
volume dropped off rapidly.

[snip]

Actually you may not have a problem with the ESL's per se but with the
listening position. The treble panels in the ESL 'beams' the sound to
one specific spot.


John: Could you tell us more about the microphone and speaker locations,
etc? Also could you give the details of what sound levels you measured and
at what frequencies? My initial reaction is was the same as Mike's, but it
would help us to diagnose/advise if we have more detailed/specific info.

Slainte,

Jim




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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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Posts: 767
Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

In article ,
John Smith wrote:
I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the
make and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but
claimed the full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net
it was on sale elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough
for my needs.


I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount). Each speaker was measured
separately so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would
for normal listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a
fixed frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz). The volume coding is
the same for each track (15dBA below peak I think). For each frequency I
noted the meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings
stayed about the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by
20kHz they were over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above
10kHz these days but the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency
was playing by the track number on the CD player.


12" from the centre of an ESL 57 is off centre for the tweeters which have
a very narrow angle.

Frequency measurements like this are only a *very* approximate guide
unless made in an anechoic chamber.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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Mike Coatham Mike Coatham is offline
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Posts: 31
Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


"John Smith" wrote in message
...
[This reply got trapped in some e-mail limbo but has re-emerged so I'm
letting it be sent now in the hope someone remembers what were discussing]

Jim, Mike,

I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the

make
and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but claimed the
full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net it was on sale
elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough for my needs.

I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount). Each speaker was measured

separately
so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would for normal
listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a fixed
frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz). The volume coding is the same
for each track (15dBA below peak I think). For each frequency I noted the
meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings stayed about
the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by 20kHz they were
over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above 10kHz these days

but
the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency was playing by the

track
number on the CD player.

Does this help or do you need the actual meter readings?

Thanks for the interest.

John.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL
speakers using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output
with a sound level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s
was very noticable. The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the
volume dropped off rapidly.

[snip]

Actually you may not have a problem with the ESL's per se but with the
listening position. The treble panels in the ESL 'beams' the sound to
one specific spot.


John: Could you tell us more about the microphone and speaker locations,
etc? Also could you give the details of what sound levels you measured

and
at what frequencies? My initial reaction is was the same as Mike's, but

it
would help us to diagnose/advise if we have more detailed/specific info.

Slainte,

Jim


Hi John,

Your meter was way too close to the Quads to get any meaningful ( accurate)
readings. Trouble here is you could be trying to fix something that isn't
broke by assuming the data you have collected is actually correct.
The Quad ESL, as I mentioned earlier certainly beams the HF content, so you
need to be far enough back to get accurate measurements. Unfortunately, I
have no idea what the original test parameters were for the ESL, but you
can bet your boots the measuring mic wasn't 12 inches from the centre .
What I suggest you do is set up the meter at your normal listing position,
and have someone tilt the ESL backwards and forwards whilst playing some HF
content. Note the meter change as the ELS is moved - and set them up at the
position where the HF content is at a peak. Then measure the whole spectrum
and see what results you get.


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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Posts: 3,964
Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?



Mike Coatham wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
[This reply got trapped in some e-mail limbo but has re-emerged so I'm
letting it be sent now in the hope someone remembers what were discussing]

Jim, Mike,

I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the

make
and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but claimed the
full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net it was on sale
elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough for my needs.

I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount). Each speaker was measured

separately
so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would for normal
listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a fixed
frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz). The volume coding is the same
for each track (15dBA below peak I think). For each frequency I noted the
meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings stayed about
the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by 20kHz they were
over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above 10kHz these days

but
the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency was playing by the

track
number on the CD player.

Does this help or do you need the actual meter readings?

Thanks for the interest.

John.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL
speakers using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output
with a sound level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s
was very noticable. The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the
volume dropped off rapidly.
[snip]

Actually you may not have a problem with the ESL's per se but with the
listening position. The treble panels in the ESL 'beams' the sound to
one specific spot.

John: Could you tell us more about the microphone and speaker locations,
etc? Also could you give the details of what sound levels you measured

and
at what frequencies? My initial reaction is was the same as Mike's, but

it
would help us to diagnose/advise if we have more detailed/specific info.

Slainte,

Jim


Hi John,

Your meter was way too close to the Quads to get any meaningful ( accurate)
readings. Trouble here is you could be trying to fix something that isn't
broke by assuming the data you have collected is actually correct.
The Quad ESL, as I mentioned earlier certainly beams the HF content, so you
need to be far enough back to get accurate measurements. Unfortunately, I
have no idea what the original test parameters were for the ESL, but you
can bet your boots the measuring mic wasn't 12 inches from the centre .
What I suggest you do is set up the meter at your normal listing position,
and have someone tilt the ESL backwards and forwards whilst playing some HF
content. Note the meter change as the ELS is moved - and set them up at the
position where the HF content is at a peak. Then measure the whole spectrum
and see what results you get.


The method of testing ESL57 described by John Smith is not how anyone should
test any speaker.

The best way to test in an average lounge room is with a pink noise signal and a
calbrated microphone
set up in 4 different random positions around and near the listening position,
ie, say either side of the chair and at
two different heights, so mic position is say 3metres away from the speaker and
on axis.
One needs a pink noise source that is a true source of flat pink noise,
cacalibrated mic with stand, wide band amplifer,
switchable bandpass filter, peak detector and logarithmic volt meter calibrated
in +/- 20 dB from its resting centre position. A digital VM is useless. The
needle movement of the meter should be damped to give easy viewing of the
level being measured which moves around the centre point.

A switchable bandpass filter with constant Q of 12 is used to filter out 34
frequencies between 20Hz and 20kHz
from the amplified microphone signal. Testing should be done when things are
quiet.
The levels are plotted in dB on a suitably drawn up page with logathithmic
scales for F and level
The readings for each 4 positions are summed in Db and then averaged, so
readings of
say +3, +1, -4, -2 in dBV will give an average reading of the sum of those
number divided by 4, = -2 / 4 = -0.5dBV

PC programs used with a sound card will do this better and faster but I built my
own analog gear
before I got a PC in 2000. The graphed response can be printed out. I am not
aware of programs available
which allow four responses to be automatically be summed.
But the old fashioned method I use allows all sorts of variations to crossover
components and response deviations
to be checked. I find that when I have a response that is flat within +/- 2dB at
the chair some 3 metres from each speaker I am testing, then the response is
about as good as can ever be had because to get things flatter the crossover has
to become way too complex, and there are limitations to what one can achieve
with L,C & R.
I say this after testing a large mumber of speakers including those I built.
Many so called flat response commercial speakers are anything but flat often
with a presence peak between 2kHz and 9kHz, and bass peak around 80Hz to give
them more wham and bam in the showroom, ie, to make them sell.
But the best speakers really do have a flat response and are the least tiring
and most revealing to listen to
regardless of whether ESL or not, and are OK with any type of music from Heavy
Metal to Mozart.

But using fixed sine waves and a sound level meter that is not guranteed to give
a flat response
with a flat source of sound is a completely useless way to measure any speaker
anywhere.
Sine waves will be cancelled or reinforced due to room resonances and the graph
of response
will be +/- 12 dB with what look like random peaks and troughs, maybe there are
20
peaks and troughs along such a graph.
Pink noise is noise containing all frequencies at all times with varying
amplitude and phase
so the effect of room resonances is minimised.

Patrick Turner.





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Andre Jute Andre Jute is offline
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Posts: 1,661
Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


Mike Coatham wrote:
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
[This reply got trapped in some e-mail limbo but has re-emerged so I'm
letting it be sent now in the hope someone remembers what were discussing]

Jim, Mike,

I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the

make
and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but claimed the
full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net it was on sale
elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough for my needs.

I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount). Each speaker was measured

separately
so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would for normal
listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a fixed
frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz). The volume coding is the same
for each track (15dBA below peak I think). For each frequency I noted the
meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings stayed about
the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by 20kHz they were
over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above 10kHz these days

but
the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency was playing by the

track
number on the CD player.

Does this help or do you need the actual meter readings?

Thanks for the interest.

John.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I compared my 1974 pair of ESL57s against a pair of newish TDL
speakers using a test CD with stepped tones and measured the output
with a sound level meter. The high-frequency roll-off of the ESL57s
was very noticable. The higher tones (10kHz up) were there but the
volume dropped off rapidly.
[snip]

Actually you may not have a problem with the ESL's per se but with the
listening position. The treble panels in the ESL 'beams' the sound to
one specific spot.

John: Could you tell us more about the microphone and speaker locations,
etc? Also could you give the details of what sound levels you measured

and
at what frequencies? My initial reaction is was the same as Mike's, but

it
would help us to diagnose/advise if we have more detailed/specific info.

Slainte,

Jim


Hi John,

Your meter was way too close to the Quads to get any meaningful ( accurate)
readings. Trouble here is you could be trying to fix something that isn't
broke by assuming the data you have collected is actually correct.
The Quad ESL, as I mentioned earlier certainly beams the HF content, so you
need to be far enough back to get accurate measurements. Unfortunately, I
have no idea what the original test parameters were for the ESL, but you
can bet your boots the measuring mic wasn't 12 inches from the centre .
What I suggest you do is set up the meter at your normal listing position,
and have someone tilt the ESL backwards and forwards whilst playing some HF
content. Note the meter change as the ELS is moved - and set them up at the
position where the HF content is at a peak. Then measure the whole spectrum
and see what results you get.


I trashed the screed I wrote because Mike said it all. This is smart;
they're John's speakers, so only the sound at his listening chair
matters. If John wants a benchmark, independent of a listening
position, a good measuring distance for '57s is also the minimum
listening position of two meters, two long paces. (1) It would probably
be smart to raise the bottom rail of the '57 at least 14in off the
floor; it might still need tilting back; stacks of paperback books are
handy. For years I kept mine on a steamer trunk (full of books, zero
resonance) with the bottom rail 24in off the floor which put the sound
level with my ears when seated in an office chair with my feet up on
pouffe. Alligning '57s correctly can account for an amazing amount of
"lost" SPL restored to your ears.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) You can get wonderfully inflated readings from the ESL63 by
measuring dead centre and 12 inches in front of it, where it has a faux
point source. Of course, that would be the same as measuring *behind*
the speaker, for the ESL63 is a dipole which has the faux point source
each side, and the sound at the listening position is from the cone
with its point behind the speaker. So as not to confuse new kids on the
electrostatic block (anyone under 60), let me state categorically that
this is utterly irrelevant to '57s, which have a different construction
and a different radiation pattern -- for the topic police: that's why
the remark is in a footnote.

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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


I trashed the screed I wrote because Mike said it all. This is smart;
they're John's speakers, so only the sound at his listening chair
matters. If John wants a benchmark, independent of a listening
position, a good measuring distance for '57s is also the minimum
listening position of two meters, two long paces. (1) It would probably
be smart to raise the bottom rail of the '57 at least 14in off the
floor; it might still need tilting back; stacks of paperback books are
handy. For years I kept mine on a steamer trunk (full of books, zero
resonance) with the bottom rail 24in off the floor which put the sound
level with my ears when seated in an office chair with my feet up on
pouffe. Alligning '57s correctly can account for an amazing amount of
"lost" SPL restored to your ears.


You may be right here about the alignment & positioning, which I ddn't mention
in my reply on the subject.

But at 3 or 4 metres which would be possible in the large rooms of the rich people

who mainly bought ESL57, the height may not matter if the path to the ears is
uncluttered.

And do not dipole speakers have queer response due to reflections?

Patrick Turner.


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Phil Allison Phil Allison is offline
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Posts: 1,444
Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


"John Smith"


I bought the meter from Maplins about 3 years ago. I don't remember the
make
and I'm not at home to check. Maplins had it at £50 or £60 but claimed the
full price was around £100 and when I looked around the net it was on sale
elsewhere for around £100 so I guess it's accurate enough for my needs.




** Once again - did you set the meter to " C " weighting ??????

Don't you know SPL meters do NOT have flat frequency response in the A or C
settings.

Did you other to read the handbook that came with the meter ??



I set it up 12 inches from the centre of the speaker mounted on a camera
tripod (the meter has a tripod mount).



** FAR too CLOSE to get a correct result.

The mic needs to be placed ( on axis ) at 1 to 2 metres distance for
response testing of ANY speaker.



Each speaker was measured separately
so 4 runs of the test. I set the volume control as I would for normal
listening. The test CD (EMI) has a series of tracks playing a fixed
frequency for about 10 seconds (20Hz-20kHz).



** Sine wave tones are NOT suitable for response testing done in an
ordinary room.

Room standing waves will completely ruin the result.


The volume coding is the same
for each track (15dBA below peak I think).



** Gawd - this fool is really clueless.


For each frequency I noted the
meter reading (its a digital readout). While the TDL readings stayed about
the same from 8-15kHz the Quads dropped over 12dBA and by 20kHz they were
over 15 dBA less than the TDLs. I can't hear much above 10kHz these days
but
the meter had no problem and I knew what frequency was playing by the
track
number on the CD player.



** This just gets worse and worse !!!!


Does this help or do you need the actual meter readings?



** Nothing you post will help.


( A bloody top poster as well as all his other crimes.)




......... Phil







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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
I trashed the screed I wrote because Mike said it all. This is smart;
they're John's speakers, so only the sound at his listening chair
matters. If John wants a benchmark, independent of a listening
position, a good measuring distance for '57s is also the minimum
listening position of two meters, two long paces. (1) It would probably
be smart to raise the bottom rail of the '57 at least 14in off the
floor; it might still need tilting back; stacks of paperback books are
handy. For years I kept mine on a steamer trunk (full of books, zero
resonance) with the bottom rail 24in off the floor which put the sound
level with my ears when seated in an office chair with my feet up on
pouffe. Alligning '57s correctly can account for an amazing amount of
"lost" SPL restored to your ears.


You may be right here about the alignment & positioning, which I ddn't mention
in my reply on the subject.


I read your instructions for doing it the hard way with interest,
Patrick. Oinkerton Pork Butcher will be proud of you for the way that
post drains the glee from the audio hobby -- just like an engineer!
That's a brilliant exposition of why I generally don't bother to do
that job (if you don't want to do it right, don't do it at all),
trusting my ears instead. For those tempted to cholerics, my ears are
trained by having owned stats from when they first appeared when I was
a teenager and by having wasted my life sitting in concerts in the
finest concert halls to which the shareholders (that's your pension
fund) flew me in the company jet.

But at 3 or 4 metres which would be possible in the large rooms of the rich people

who mainly bought ESL57, the height may not matter if the path to the ears is
uncluttered.


With Quad ESL, either of the types here under discussion, anyone with
experience of them will be hard put to think of a situation in which
elevation or tilt does not improve the sound. (Mike? Phil? Astound me
with something I've overlooked.) You see, Patrick, even a genius like
Peter Walker had his blind spot. In the case of the ESL the "blind
spot" is an altogether too apt pun. It is those bloody grilles, so
stylish on the '57, hidden behind the sock on the '63 but still with
that nasty downward-pointing perforation which directs the sound at the
carpet.

The '57 in fact benefits from being put nearer the ceiling than the
floor, and particularly if inverted for stacking, wants to be raised a
very substantial way. The actress Fay Dunaway has a pair of '57 up
above doortop level near the ceiling of her living room in her Paris
apartment, a super solution.

And do not dipole speakers have queer response due to reflections?


Troll.

My stats have perfect dispersion patterns because only my chair matters
and the room is tuned by dumping amps strategically. EL34 PP amps make
the most mellow roomtuning devices. Seriously, If you sit on-beam to
the '57, that's the sweetest sound you'll ever hear. Do yourself a
favour and give up stereo. Sell your spare '57 or stack the pair in a
custom-made frame. I have a handwritten letter from Peter Walker in my
collection in which he tells someone that he can use any other good
speaker for the fill-in position if he insists on two speakers but that
the best sound will come from a single '57; I owned that single '57 (I
bought it to get the letter) as well as a pair, so I had plenty of
opportunity to test the theory.

Mono is Mama Mia! If-- you gotta have the right speaker and set it up
right. My town house is four stories tall. I stack several ESL63 at the
top and play thrilling music (Esther Lamandier, Emma Kirkby, Gregorian
Chant, Michael Vetter and the Overtone Chior, Piet Kee on the organ,
piano music) while I cook several floors below, using the stairs as a
horn flare for the ESL with room doors on the landings opened or closed
according to the requirement for Helmholz chambers (I just throw in
that bit for the engineers to agonize over -- there are also some
airing cupboards which on this scale is good for finetuning compression
chambers); it's a stunning sound and, at that scale, dispersion pattern
is irrelevant. Everything depends on viewpoint and scale. Nobody forces
you to sit in a chair and listen to music. Great sound is more a
question of putting your mind in gear than spending a lot of money on
this week's fashion-trash.

Patrick Turner.


Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


"Phil Allison"

" I have been doing just such tests, with pink noise, on a pair of ESL63s
this week."


** Further to the above - this is basically how I carry out response and
sensitivity ( dB /w/m) tests to Quad ESLs ( and others) in a domestic
environment.

Tools:

1. The "Denon Audio Technical CD, 38C39 7147 " with octave & 1/3 oct pink
noise bands.

2. A CD player, Sony CDP101 in my case.

3. A power amplifier with known flat response ( +0 ,-1 dB 10Hz to 50 kHz)
and low output impedance.

4. A "true rms" AC voltmeter with response flat from 5 Hz to 100 kHz +/-
1% of reading - this is an ESSENTIAL item.

5. A Rode SPL meter with 1/2 inch true condenser mic capsule & modified
electronics to give *flat* response rather than C weighted - which is
nearly 10 dB down at 20 kHz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting).

6. A camera tripod for the Rode meter.


Procedu

Position Quad ESL (or box speaker ) on a stand so the central (or tweeter)
axis is 1.5 metres above the floor - all speakers are kept well away from
adjacent walls.

Position SPL meter *exactly* on axis and 1.5 metres in front of the ESLs or
1 metre for box speakers.

Connect AC meter to speaker terminals to monitor the input level in volts
rms.

Play octave band noise centred on 500Hz and adjust signal level to get a
reference reading of around 80 dB SPL.

Play each octave band in turn and note readings on BOTH the AC meter and the
SPL meter - any drop in the AC meter reading is used to correct the SPL
meter reading.

Do same as above for 1/3 octaves and plot on a graph.

Sensitivity can be tested with full audio band pink noise or preferably by
averaging the SPL readings in the octaves from 100 Hz to 8 kHz - in each
case the level is adjusted to show 2.82 volts rms on the AC meter
corresponding to nominal 1 watt / 8 ohms.

For Quad ESLs, the SPL meter is moved to a position exactly 2 metre away,
6 dB is then added to the reading to give an SPL figure referenced to the
usual 1 metre distance.





........ Phil



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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

In article .com,
Andre Jute wrote:
My stats have perfect dispersion patterns because only my chair matters
and the room is tuned by dumping amps strategically. EL34 PP amps make
the most mellow roomtuning devices. Seriously, If you sit on-beam to
the '57, that's the sweetest sound you'll ever hear. Do yourself a
favour and give up stereo. Sell your spare '57 or stack the pair in a
custom-made frame. I have a handwritten letter from Peter Walker in my
collection in which he tells someone that he can use any other good
speaker for the fill-in position if he insists on two speakers but that
the best sound will come from a single '57; I owned that single '57 (I
bought it to get the letter) as well as a pair, so I had plenty of
opportunity to test the theory.


If you don't get a rock solid central mono image in the sweet spot from a
pair of good '57s, your room needs treating. They don't take kindly to
poor acoustics. Pretty well the same as any speaker. ;-)

Anyone who recommends mono over stereo has never heard good stereo in a
decent listening room. And that is probably 99.9% of the listening public.

--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

Andre Jute wrote:

(1) You can get wonderfully inflated readings from the ESL63 by
measuring dead centre and 12 inches in front of it, where it has a faux
point source. Of course, that would be the same as measuring *behind*
the speaker, for the ESL63 is a dipole which has the faux point source
each side, and the sound at the listening position is from the cone
with its point behind the speaker.


If your microphone is a foot in front of the speaker, nothing special happens.
The virtual point source is always on the other side. Trying to find that loud
spot is like looking for the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow, unless
you've wired the delay line backwards.

As for Andre's theory that the louvred grill directs the sound into the carpet,
that really is a crock.

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?



Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
I trashed the screed I wrote because Mike said it all. This is smart;
they're John's speakers, so only the sound at his listening chair
matters. If John wants a benchmark, independent of a listening
position, a good measuring distance for '57s is also the minimum
listening position of two meters, two long paces. (1) It would probably
be smart to raise the bottom rail of the '57 at least 14in off the
floor; it might still need tilting back; stacks of paperback books are
handy. For years I kept mine on a steamer trunk (full of books, zero
resonance) with the bottom rail 24in off the floor which put the sound
level with my ears when seated in an office chair with my feet up on
pouffe. Alligning '57s correctly can account for an amazing amount of
"lost" SPL restored to your ears.


You may be right here about the alignment & positioning, which I ddn't mention
in my reply on the subject.


I read your instructions for doing it the hard way with interest,
Patrick. Oinkerton Pork Butcher will be proud of you for the way that
post drains the glee from the audio hobby -- just like an engineer!
That's a brilliant exposition of why I generally don't bother to do
that job (if you don't want to do it right, don't do it at all),
trusting my ears instead. For those tempted to cholerics, my ears are
trained by having owned stats from when they first appeared when I was
a teenager and by having wasted my life sitting in concerts in the
finest concert halls to which the shareholders (that's your pension
fund) flew me in the company jet.


Well, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings about thie hobby, but
I have to fix gear for a living, and although Mozartian test signals are the final
decider
I do like things to measure modeartely well, rather than attrociously, which usually
makes
speakers sound maybe passable but maybe not optimal on all music because many speakers
sound as if
there is a graphic equalizer in the system with a few slides set randomly +/6dB or more
along the band.


But at 3 or 4 metres which would be possible in the large rooms of the rich people

who mainly bought ESL57, the height may not matter if the path to the ears is
uncluttered.


With Quad ESL, either of the types here under discussion, anyone with
experience of them will be hard put to think of a situation in which
elevation or tilt does not improve the sound. (Mike? Phil? Astound me
with something I've overlooked.) You see, Patrick, even a genius like
Peter Walker had his blind spot. In the case of the ESL the "blind
spot" is an altogether too apt pun. It is those bloody grilles, so
stylish on the '57, hidden behind the sock on the '63 but still with
that nasty downward-pointing perforation which directs the sound at the
carpet.


You'd be surprised if I said that many ordinary listerners don't like a really flat
response.
I listened to a Celtic Harp last night with a lady friend and you'd have thought the
player was with us with my system. But she preferred an 8 dB cut to the treble.
Her own system is in a cupboard with louvre doors in front, this give about 2hHz of
sound
yet she sings along and is a happy little vegemite.



The '57 in fact benefits from being put nearer the ceiling than the
floor, and particularly if inverted for stacking, wants to be raised a
very substantial way. The actress Fay Dunaway has a pair of '57 up
above doortop level near the ceiling of her living room in her Paris
apartment, a super solution.

And do not dipole speakers have queer response due to reflections?


Troll.

My stats have perfect dispersion patterns because only my chair matters
and the room is tuned by dumping amps strategically. EL34 PP amps make
the most mellow roomtuning devices. Seriously, If you sit on-beam to
the '57, that's the sweetest sound you'll ever hear. Do yourself a
favour and give up stereo. Sell your spare '57 or stack the pair in a
custom-made frame. I have a handwritten letter from Peter Walker in my
collection in which he tells someone that he can use any other good
speaker for the fill-in position if he insists on two speakers but that
the best sound will come from a single '57; I owned that single '57 (I
bought it to get the letter) as well as a pair, so I had plenty of
opportunity to test the theory.


Mono is actually OK....



Mono is Mama Mia! If-- you gotta have the right speaker and set it up
right. My town house is four stories tall. I stack several ESL63 at the
top and play thrilling music (Esther Lamandier, Emma Kirkby, Gregorian
Chant, Michael Vetter and the Overtone Chior, Piet Kee on the organ,
piano music) while I cook several floors below, using the stairs as a
horn flare for the ESL with room doors on the landings opened or closed
according to the requirement for Helmholz chambers (I just throw in
that bit for the engineers to agonize over -- there are also some
airing cupboards which on this scale is good for finetuning compression
chambers); it's a stunning sound and, at that scale, dispersion pattern
is irrelevant. Everything depends on viewpoint and scale. Nobody forces
you to sit in a chair and listen to music. Great sound is more a
question of putting your mind in gear than spending a lot of money on
this week's fashion-trash.


I often do other things than sit in a chair when there is music in my house;
I'm always busy, and endorphins generated by female company always
enhances the music and food and wine.

An audiophile sitting alone in a dark room without any company might be missing
something......

But concerts do tell you what to expect from a system, and I am always on the lookout
for good ones to go to.

And what I also re-discovered this winter is that doing a few hundred metres in the pool
and a few kilometres
on the bike every week also improves the sound and reduces the obsessive perceptions.

Patrick Turner.




Patrick Turner.


Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review




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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:
You'd be surprised if I said that many ordinary listerners don't like a
really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night with a lady
friend and you'd have thought the player was with us with my system. But
she preferred an 8 dB cut to the treble. Her own system is in a cupboard
with louvre doors in front, this give about 2hHz of sound yet she sings
along and is a happy little vegemite.


Nice mellow sound, then. Plenty people like excessive bass too.
Doesn't make them 'right' - just maybe happy.

--
*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Keith G Keith G is offline
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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:
You'd be surprised if I said that many ordinary listerners don't like a
really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night with a lady
friend and you'd have thought the player was with us with my system. But
she preferred an 8 dB cut to the treble. Her own system is in a cupboard
with louvre doors in front, this give about 2hHz of sound yet she sings
along and is a happy little vegemite.


Nice mellow sound, then. Plenty people like excessive bass too.
Doesn't make them 'right' - just maybe happy.



Interesting notion - the obverse presumably being 'I'm not happy with it,
but at least I know it's *right"....??



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"Keith G" wrote in
:

like a really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night
with a lady friend and you'd have thought the player was with us


Damn, you're lucky. None of my GFs and FBs had an interest in audio.
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"Prune" wrote in message
4.76...
"Keith G" wrote in
:

like a really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night
with a lady friend and you'd have thought the player was with us


Damn, you're lucky. None of my GFs and FBs had an interest in audio.




I never actually said that, but asitappens mine does - she is even *more*
pro valves and vinyl than I am!! (Understandable, as she is both a
clarinettist and pianist...!! ;-)

But forget all that - just get one who can cook.....

Or, even better, one who can cook like an angel and then *insists* on doing
the washing up.....

:-)




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Prune Prune is offline
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"Keith G" wrote in
:

But forget all that - just get one who can cook.....

Or, even better, one who can cook like an angel and then *insists* on
doing the washing up.....


Hehe... I cook myself, and I find it natural that all the greatest chefs
are men. I'd be more interested in one that will do my laundry, ironing,
and folding -- that's the chore I most despise.

For now, though, one woman still seems a boring proposition for me.
Variety is the spice of life, gentlemen.


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Prune wrote:

"Keith G" wrote in
:


But it was me who said this:-

like a really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night
with a lady friend and you'd have thought the player was with us


Damn, you're lucky. None of my GFs and FBs had an interest in audio.


Yes, I am lucky. She likes music of many varieties, and tolerates my
huge speakers, huge log fire, a fine wine and................


.....................and she has something resistant to being worn out.

Patrick Turner.


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Patrick Turner wrote in news:44C8A7AF.DEC55C73
@turneraudio.com.au:

....................and she has something resistant to being worn out.


That's great Patrick, I hope to find a woman like that one day. At 26, I
figure I'll take another six to fool around... plus, I'm thinking that the
more women I meet, the bigger the chance of finding "the one".
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Prune wrote in
4.76:

I figure I'll take another six to fool around


o.O

Er, I meant another six YEARS, not women...
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Keith G wrote:

"Prune" wrote in message
4.76...
"Keith G" wrote in
:

like a really flat response. I listened to a Celtic Harp last night
with a lady friend and you'd have thought the player was with us


Damn, you're lucky. None of my GFs and FBs had an interest in audio.


I never actually said that, but asitappens mine does - she is even *more*
pro valves and vinyl than I am!! (Understandable, as she is both a
clarinettist and pianist...!! ;-)

But forget all that - just get one who can cook.....

Or, even better, one who can cook like an angel and then *insists* on doing
the washing up.....


I got one who likes to cook, wash up, clean up the kitchen and bedroom if there
is time,
then bonk like mad.
She sings around the house more than she complains,
and doesn't meddle with lighting the fire.

Patrick Turner.



:-)


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Prune wrote:

"Keith G" wrote in
:

But forget all that - just get one who can cook.....

Or, even better, one who can cook like an angel and then *insists* on
doing the washing up.....


Hehe... I cook myself, and I find it natural that all the greatest chefs
are men. I'd be more interested in one that will do my laundry, ironing,
and folding -- that's the chore I most despise.

For now, though, one woman still seems a boring proposition for me.
Variety is the spice of life, gentlemen.


Goodness me you dice with death trying to have more than one woman.

Better to have the same woman do it twice and differently than two who do it
the same way
with twice the costs and all that TROUBLE you can have with more than 1.

Patrick Turner.






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Prune wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in news:44C8A7AF.DEC55C73
@turneraudio.com.au:

....................and she has something resistant to being worn out.


That's great Patrick, I hope to find a woman like that one day. At 26, I
figure I'll take another six to fool around... plus, I'm thinking that the
more women I meet, the bigger the chance of finding "the one".


There is always "the other one" if "the one" turns out to be a dud.
The good woman should amplify the good man in who you are, and not cause
vexatious oscillations of character and moods.

Women think like that too.

So don't be a dud for them.

But many women who find themselves with better jobs and more success at 33
dump their
toiling boring men and remain single or meet a guy better than you are.
Never ever think you are god's gift to females.....

Only 35% of females now born will suffer marriage in western nations.

An ideal marriage is a one night stand that lasts several glorious years of
fun and good times,
but with no time for infidelty, but time for necessary domestic arrangements
and bliss.

Patrick Turner.





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Default ESL57s - loss of high frequency?

Patrick Turner said:


That's great Patrick, I hope to find a woman like that one day. At 26, I
figure I'll take another six to fool around... plus, I'm thinking that the
more women I meet, the bigger the chance of finding "the one".



There is always "the other one" if "the one" turns out to be a dud.
The good woman should amplify the good man in who you are, and not cause
vexatious oscillations of character and moods.



Women think like that too.


So don't be a dud for them.


But many women who find themselves with better jobs and more success at 33
dump their
toiling boring men and remain single or meet a guy better than you are.
Never ever think you are god's gift to females.....


Only 35% of females now born will suffer marriage in western nations.


An ideal marriage is a one night stand that lasts several glorious years of
fun and good times,
but with no time for infidelty, but time for necessary domestic arrangements
and bliss.



They *do* exist, boys.
I count myself as a blessed man. :-)

--
"All amps sound alike, but some sound more alike than others".
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