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On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:24:51 +0100, Fritz Wuehler
wrote:

On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi


snip

You know Andre ...the only difference between you and a bucket of ****
is the bucket.

KPLONK.

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Ronald
 
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Default On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles

PLONK !!!

X-post !!!



"Fritz Wuehler" schreef in
bericht ll.eu.org...
On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

There is a difference between a music lover and an audiophile that

reflects on the sort of hi-fi equipment they buy.

Hi-fi for music lovers was well described by Peter Walker as providing a

window on the concert hall, the closest approach to the original in your
living room. There are a lot of technical problems, still, with achieving
anything like the ideal. That is why we say high-fidelity and not just
fidelity. The important thing about trying to reproduce the original
performance in your living room is that there is an objective standard, the
original performance itself. This implies constant concert going. One of the
great problems with the classical Walker approach is that the modern living
room is not the size of a concert hall or even the sort of library or
drawing room of a grand house in which live recordings of chamber music is
often made. (A recording studio can be any size but many are much closer to
the rooms of real people. This is however a side issue, dealt with by Mick
in the thread Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture
speakers.)

Audiophiles have essentially given up on the window on the concert hall.

They have gradually taken upon themselves to reproduce their music the way
they want it, without reference to any original. Since they are now in the
vast majority, a whole trade of manufacturers has sprung up to cater for
them. Over the years bass extension has become the dominant criterion of
goodness of loudspeakers to those in this group, and thus for the
manufacturers catering for them. Those designers who are still concert goers
and so retain a connection with the music lovers sell their work into this
market as boutique brands, as fashion goods. Their good gear is then copied
by strictly commercial parties who hardly ever, and in some cases never, see
the inside of a concert hall. Such people add more of what is desired by
their market, which is bass (or in an amp power), and eventually the entire
experience, in comparison with the concert hall, is distorted. Very
expensive speakers with boomy one note bass acquire a faithful following.

Since there is no objective standard, fashion and hype become the norm.

How much you spent and how much brand recognition your hi-fi has becomes
much more important than how it actually sounds. Fourth and fifth carbons of
once reasonable designs are sold at vastly inflated prices by designers
who have no connection to the original music, no philosophy of music
reproduction, only the desire to make a buck. Some of their speakers are
better built copies of other peoples speakers, but the premium is justified
by more bass, not more faithful reproduction. Their customers are easily
spotted by having spent vastly more money on their amp and speakers and
sources than on their collection of music. They think the brand name and the
cost gives them superiority, or an entree into cultured society. (A retired
brother keeper a month or so ago wrote a letter to these newsgroups which
she intended as a putdown to me: it consisted of the brand names of about
nine pricey audio components she owns.)

A subbranch of these deluded people becomes religious about the particular

experience of their preferred brand and angry when one points out that the
sonic output bears little relationship to live music. Or perhaps they are
just trying to protect the trade-in value of snake oil.

Below I reprint part of the correspondence which gave rise to these more

general observations.

Andre Jute

Andre Jute wrote in the thread:
Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

Let me say, first of all, Paul, that it is your money. You can spend it on

any speakers you want, including Turner Audio speakers. It is also your
soul. If you want to make a religion of the turneroids speakers, you will
burn alone for it, so it is none of our business.

However, you must allow the rest of us too to make our own choices. And

when you put your reasons on the public record in such abrasively personal
tones, we are entitled to inspect them closely.

WHAT YOU HEARD
Your description of the turneroid speakers is perfectly fair, from your

viewpoint. However, what we hear you telling us is that there is this
toaster made in a Canberra electrical repair shop that toasts the bread
evenly but not quite equally brown on both sides. All right, okay, so thats
what toasters mostly do, they toast bread, and even common toasters toast
evenly, and to get one that toasts equally brown on both sides may cost a
bit more. But you also tell us this Canberra repair shop toaster, which
doesnt even toast evenly brown on both sides, costs an enormous premium. And
the maker of the toaster tells us he sells three a year.

Only in audiophool land is an enormous premium for a run of the mill

product justified by the fact that it is exclusive, for which the English
translation is: Everyone else is too smart to waste their money.

And then you get abusive when I state the obvious. Ouch, man. Since you

dont like my first attempt to explain the reasoning to you, here is the
neddy version (1):

WHAT HI-FI DOES
High-fidelity audio equipment attempts to reproduce the sound of live

music in the concert hall faithfully in your home. It has not yet succeeded
or we would not need the qualifier, high, we would use only the single
definitive word, fidelity.

WHAT CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH IT
Music is an art form, by definition a cultured activity in its creation,

performance and appreciation. It is a cultivated taste.

Those who have not cultivated the taste cannot judge whether the

performance in the concert hall is in fact faithfully reproduced by the
speakers in your home, or to be precise, since we are speaking of an
ever-closer approach to fidelity, a journey rather than a fait accompli,
more faithfully than by the next speaker. Those who have not cultivated the
taste therefore have no business pretending to be makers of loudspeakers,
because they are certain to take backwards, away from fidelity, rather than
closer to it.

WHAT TURNERS LACK OF CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH LOUDSPEAKERS
Your friend Patrick Turner has no culture. He behaves like a yob. We know

he rarely if ever attends concerts. We know his CD collection is a
derisory sixty discs. He is not a music lover. How can Turner possibly judge
and develop loudspeakers that will satisfy the criteria of music lovers?

THE MAKERS OF GOOD SPEAKERS
Mr Gilbert Briggs, founder of Wharfedale and at the helm throughout their

glory days, was a pianist of some standing and a constant concertgoer. Mr
Peter Walker of Quad did not just attend concerts, he put them on in the
Royal Albert Hall.

The makers of good speakers, and amps for that matter, are not merely

concert goers and engineers, they also think about music and its
reproduction, and have arrived at a philosophy, and it is by the philosophy
that they add value as much as by their engineering and cultivated taste to
know what works artistically as well as mechanically.

SO, HOW DO THE TURNEROID SPEAKERS WORK
Your friend Patrick Turner has no such philosophy. He has a craft outlook.

He sees something, copies it, and claims he makes it better than the
original, and therefore it should be worth vastly more. That may be a way to
make second-rate jewelry, though the discriminating will still patronize the
original craftsman rather than the copyist, and will know the nouveau riche
and non-kulturny pretenders precisely by the fact that they take the copyist
at his own hyped-up valuation.

THE OUTCOME
Because Turner is not a music lover and not a cultured person in general,

he has no reference for his speakers except other speakers he heard. Because
as a consequence of not being a music lover he has no philosophy of
reproduction, the outcome, at vast cost, is a me-too speaker, a possibly
better made lowest common denominator speaker for which a premium is
charged, perversely because no one with any discrimination wants it!

And why dont the discriminating want it? Because no value has been added.

And no value has been added because the turneroid has no culture. The circle
is complete.

You are in effect asked to pay a premium for a pretty common speaker

because its maker, Turner, is a rude yob!

Im sorry, James, but there are literally hundreds of makes of speakers

that do exactly what the turneroid speakers do, at a lower cost. In the case
of the Turner Audio amplifiers, there are hundreds of makes that do exactly
what the turneroid amps do, at vastly lower cost. If you dont want your
religion ridiculed, dont display it in public.

Andre Jute

(1) Neddy is an all-purpose fool to whom things must be explained slowly

and repeatedly.




  #3   Report Post  
Yves Monmagnon
 
Posts: n/a
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For sure !!

BUT ...

Does the same perfomer(s) sounds the same when he (she) performs at Royal
Albert Hall,
at Carnegie Hall or .... in my (300 sqft) living room ?
Certainly not !
Do all Bosendorfer sound the same ?
Certainly not !
Does a Stenway sounds different than a Yamaha ?
Certainly yes !
Wich is the best ?
I don't know ! and don't really matter as long I've pleasure to listen to !

Make your hears happy and forgot why there are.

Yves

P.S.
I doubt to be able to cook as Troisgros nor (sigh) Bernard Loiseau, but I
cook and
have pleasure with ;-)


"Ronald" wrote in message
...
PLONK !!!

X-post !!!



"Fritz Wuehler" schreef in
bericht ll.eu.org...
On the difference between music lovers and audiophiles
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

There is a difference between a music lover and an audiophile that

reflects on the sort of hi-fi equipment they buy.

Hi-fi for music lovers was well described by Peter Walker as providing a

window on the concert hall, the closest approach to the original in your
living room. There are a lot of technical problems, still, with achieving
anything like the ideal. That is why we say high-fidelity and not just
fidelity. The important thing about trying to reproduce the original
performance in your living room is that there is an objective standard,

the
original performance itself. This implies constant concert going. One of

the
great problems with the classical Walker approach is that the modern

living
room is not the size of a concert hall or even the sort of library or
drawing room of a grand house in which live recordings of chamber music is
often made. (A recording studio can be any size but many are much closer

to
the rooms of real people. This is however a side issue, dealt with by Mick
in the thread Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture
speakers.)

Audiophiles have essentially given up on the window on the concert hall.

They have gradually taken upon themselves to reproduce their music the way
they want it, without reference to any original. Since they are now in the
vast majority, a whole trade of manufacturers has sprung up to cater for
them. Over the years bass extension has become the dominant criterion of
goodness of loudspeakers to those in this group, and thus for the
manufacturers catering for them. Those designers who are still concert

goers
and so retain a connection with the music lovers sell their work into this
market as boutique brands, as fashion goods. Their good gear is then

copied
by strictly commercial parties who hardly ever, and in some cases never,

see
the inside of a concert hall. Such people add more of what is desired by
their market, which is bass (or in an amp power), and eventually the

entire
experience, in comparison with the concert hall, is distorted. Very
expensive speakers with boomy one note bass acquire a faithful following.

Since there is no objective standard, fashion and hype become the norm.

How much you spent and how much brand recognition your hi-fi has becomes
much more important than how it actually sounds. Fourth and fifth carbons

of
once reasonable designs are sold at vastly inflated prices by designers
who have no connection to the original music, no philosophy of music
reproduction, only the desire to make a buck. Some of their speakers are
better built copies of other peoples speakers, but the premium is

justified
by more bass, not more faithful reproduction. Their customers are easily
spotted by having spent vastly more money on their amp and speakers and
sources than on their collection of music. They think the brand name and

the
cost gives them superiority, or an entree into cultured society. (A

retired
brother keeper a month or so ago wrote a letter to these newsgroups which
she intended as a putdown to me: it consisted of the brand names of about
nine pricey audio components she owns.)

A subbranch of these deluded people becomes religious about the

particular
experience of their preferred brand and angry when one points out that the
sonic output bears little relationship to live music. Or perhaps they are
just trying to protect the trade-in value of snake oil.

Below I reprint part of the correspondence which gave rise to these more

general observations.

Andre Jute

Andre Jute wrote in the thread:
Why the non-kulturny turneroid builds zero-culture speakers
rec.audio.tubes,aus.hi-fi

Let me say, first of all, Paul, that it is your money. You can spend it

on
any speakers you want, including Turner Audio speakers. It is also your
soul. If you want to make a religion of the turneroids speakers, you will
burn alone for it, so it is none of our business.

However, you must allow the rest of us too to make our own choices. And

when you put your reasons on the public record in such abrasively personal
tones, we are entitled to inspect them closely.

WHAT YOU HEARD
Your description of the turneroid speakers is perfectly fair, from your

viewpoint. However, what we hear you telling us is that there is this
toaster made in a Canberra electrical repair shop that toasts the bread
evenly but not quite equally brown on both sides. All right, okay, so

thats
what toasters mostly do, they toast bread, and even common toasters toast
evenly, and to get one that toasts equally brown on both sides may cost a
bit more. But you also tell us this Canberra repair shop toaster, which
doesnt even toast evenly brown on both sides, costs an enormous premium.

And
the maker of the toaster tells us he sells three a year.

Only in audiophool land is an enormous premium for a run of the mill

product justified by the fact that it is exclusive, for which the English
translation is: Everyone else is too smart to waste their money.

And then you get abusive when I state the obvious. Ouch, man. Since you

dont like my first attempt to explain the reasoning to you, here is the
neddy version (1):

WHAT HI-FI DOES
High-fidelity audio equipment attempts to reproduce the sound of live

music in the concert hall faithfully in your home. It has not yet

succeeded
or we would not need the qualifier, high, we would use only the single
definitive word, fidelity.

WHAT CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH IT
Music is an art form, by definition a cultured activity in its creation,

performance and appreciation. It is a cultivated taste.

Those who have not cultivated the taste cannot judge whether the

performance in the concert hall is in fact faithfully reproduced by the
speakers in your home, or to be precise, since we are speaking of an
ever-closer approach to fidelity, a journey rather than a fait accompli,
more faithfully than by the next speaker. Those who have not cultivated

the
taste therefore have no business pretending to be makers of loudspeakers,
because they are certain to take backwards, away from fidelity, rather

than
closer to it.

WHAT TURNERS LACK OF CULTURE HAS TO DO WITH LOUDSPEAKERS
Your friend Patrick Turner has no culture. He behaves like a yob. We

know
he rarely if ever attends concerts. We know his CD collection is a
derisory sixty discs. He is not a music lover. How can Turner possibly

judge
and develop loudspeakers that will satisfy the criteria of music lovers?

THE MAKERS OF GOOD SPEAKERS
Mr Gilbert Briggs, founder of Wharfedale and at the helm throughout

their
glory days, was a pianist of some standing and a constant concertgoer. Mr
Peter Walker of Quad did not just attend concerts, he put them on in the
Royal Albert Hall.

The makers of good speakers, and amps for that matter, are not merely

concert goers and engineers, they also think about music and its
reproduction, and have arrived at a philosophy, and it is by the

philosophy
that they add value as much as by their engineering and cultivated taste

to
know what works artistically as well as mechanically.

SO, HOW DO THE TURNEROID SPEAKERS WORK
Your friend Patrick Turner has no such philosophy. He has a craft

outlook.
He sees something, copies it, and claims he makes it better than the
original, and therefore it should be worth vastly more. That may be a way

to
make second-rate jewelry, though the discriminating will still patronize

the
original craftsman rather than the copyist, and will know the nouveau

riche
and non-kulturny pretenders precisely by the fact that they take the

copyist
at his own hyped-up valuation.

THE OUTCOME
Because Turner is not a music lover and not a cultured person in

general,
he has no reference for his speakers except other speakers he heard.

Because
as a consequence of not being a music lover he has no philosophy of
reproduction, the outcome, at vast cost, is a me-too speaker, a possibly
better made lowest common denominator speaker for which a premium is
charged, perversely because no one with any discrimination wants it!

And why dont the discriminating want it? Because no value has been

added.
And no value has been added because the turneroid has no culture. The

circle
is complete.

You are in effect asked to pay a premium for a pretty common speaker

because its maker, Turner, is a rude yob!

Im sorry, James, but there are literally hundreds of makes of speakers

that do exactly what the turneroid speakers do, at a lower cost. In the

case
of the Turner Audio amplifiers, there are hundreds of makes that do

exactly
what the turneroid amps do, at vastly lower cost. If you dont want your
religion ridiculed, dont display it in public.

Andre Jute

(1) Neddy is an all-purpose fool to whom things must be explained slowly


and repeatedly.






  #4   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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You know Andre ...the only difference between you and a bucket of ****
is the bucket.

KPLONK.



** The above nameless troll is one of the vilest pieces of excrement on
usenet.

He lives to destroy the truth on any subject.



.......... Phil



  #5   Report Post  
TubeGarden
 
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Default

Hi RATs!

There are no music lovers nor audiophiles.

"There is only you and me, and brother, can't you see, this is not the way to
put an end to war."

The human brain imagines knowledge, and then pretends it has some, or all

It sometimes acts like no one else has any.

Insults are for those unhappy people who feel threatened by their own humanity.

Music is for us unhappy people who feel joy in our own humanity.

Play in whatever park suits your current mood.

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead
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