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#1
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digitalizing vinyl records
Hi to Everyone,
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? |
#2
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:
Hi to Everyone, I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all, without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record. Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the sound card? If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono preamplifier & de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of sound card you get. d |
#3
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:
Hi to Everyone, I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster live? When I digitized my albums, I used an outboard a/d (ackdac) and a sound card with an s/pdif input. |
#4
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Bernard" wrote in message news I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a meaningful response. Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized well. If money matters to you, try a Behringer uca 202. About $30 in many music and pro audio stores. If you have a little money to spend, try a eMu 0202. Musician's Friend is selling refurbs for about $80. If you have a lot of money to spend you could make a nice contribution to a charity... but otherwise one of the best audio interfaces around is still the LynxTwo, for about $800. |
#5
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Jun 23, 11:02*am, Bernard wrote:
Hi to Everyone, I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. If you are going directly from the turntable output to your sound card input, you're almost guaranteed to have poor quality results. You'll have poor bass, screechy highs, probably low levels and lots of noise. That's because none of the inputs on pretty much ANY soundcard are not designed to properly handle the output of a tunrtable. Instead, you need to have an intermediate piece of equipment which provides all of the functions of a phono preamp, including matching, gain and proper equalization. You could use an existing receiver, preamplifier or integrated amplifier with a phone input and connect the tap outputs to your sound card. You could also go out and buy a dedicated phono preamp for as little as %50 to as high as one's insanity might allow one to pay for such a device. Once you have that in hand, you'll need to spend a little time playing with gains to optimize the signal levels, but from there you're good to go. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. A USB audio interface will do the job, but it is not necessary. A good sound card will be equally as useful. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? There is no "specific" interface for the job. You need a good quality turntable, a good quality phono preamp or system with a phono preamp, and you need a good-quality sound card or external analog-to-digotal converter to get the recording in to your computer. Many modern-day computers have quite audio inputs amd ,ay well be more than up to the task, given the rest of the equipment needed above, so you may not need an external USB (or fire-wire or whatever). That being said, I have two laptops he one is an IBM Thinkpad T22, the other is a newer Thinkpad T42. The audio converters, from the standpoint of input-output response, are much better in the older T22 than in the newer T42! Figure that out. |
#6
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digitalizing vinyl records
On 6/23/2009 9:52 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"Bernard" wrote in message news I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a meaningful response. True that. Would be nice to know what kind of sound card gave results that were "poor in quality". Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized well. I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing the sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten results which are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my turntable through my sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn close to "CD quality". Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the quality of the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play it. With a good cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and probably any modren sound card, good results are possible. Clicks and pops are easily edited out by hand. -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#7
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/23/2009 9:52 AM Arny Krueger spake thus: "Bernard" wrote in message news I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a meaningful response. True that. Would be nice to know what kind of sound card gave results that were "poor in quality". Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized well. I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing the sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten results which are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my turntable through my sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn close to "CD quality". Read what he said again. He said it doesn't take anything particularly special to do this. And he's right. The original poster may be having some other issue, like a bad ground (or a ground loop), or as somone suggested, no phono preamp. So he reads around, and discovers that some suggest a USB audio card. He shifts in that direction, not really grasping what's being said, so he comes here looking for details based on that premise. But he didn't read far enough along to know that the reason some might suggest a USB card is not because "they are better" but because it gets the analog circuitry away from the noisy computer, which may be a factor in some cases. Or he may be mislaid by those USB turntables, that are a mere convenience. Someone without a turntable has to buy one, so they might as well get one that has a built in phono preamp, and then the electronics to digitize the sound into a USB signal. Of course, those are what you pay for them, and I just saw one locally for a hundred dollars which isn't going to beat my 30 year old Lenco turntable with a Grado cartridge, going through some stereo receiver for the phono preamp and then into whatever sound card I have in my computer. Michael Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the quality of the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play it. With a good cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and probably any modren sound card, good results are possible. Clicks and pops are easily edited out by hand. -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#8
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digitalizing vinyl records
Thanks to Everyone for your input.
At first, I am going to give some details that should have been in my first post. My pickyup (turntable) is not being plugged straight into the sound card. A phono preamplifier is in between. How poor are my digitilized results ? Well, the first time I listened to these, I thought they were OK. It surely was nothing professional, but, thinking of old vinyl records, it was not so bad. So I thought. But then I decided to test the original vinyl records against the digitalized CDs; using the same HiFi speakers and amplifier. I found that the difference was very big, even though it seems a light one at first sight. I don't know how to describe such a difference, so I will try my best to do so. With the vinyl, the piano seems to be in the room, its sound is very pleasurable. Listening the audio CD that I burnt from the digitalized vinyl source, the difference may seem light at first, but it makes the difference between something I am looking forward to listen again and again, and something that I won't care about, even thought is is supposedly the same thing. My sound card is included in my mother board ASUS P5LD2 SE. It is a SoundMax ADI 1986A. My system is not MSWIN, but Linux Debian Sarge on my desktop, Linux UBUNTU 8.04 (Hardy Heron) on my laptop. If you wish to get a more precise idea of what I get in digitalizing vinyls, here are a few links. http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3 http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip Thanks in advance for your comments. Bernard Le Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:08:00 +0000, Don Pearce a écrit*: On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote: Hi to Everyone, I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all, without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record. Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the sound card? If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono preamplifier & de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of sound card you get. d |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Don Pearce" wrote ...
Bernard wrote: I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all, without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record. Indeed, the specs (and likely real-world performance) in the areas of frequency response, flatness, distortion, etc. are ever so much better than any vinyl recording. However many (most?) internal sound cards, particularly the ones built into the mother-board, typically suffer from poor SNR because of the hostile digital hash internal to the computer case. This is likely the reason for the recommendation for external ("USB") A/D conversion. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:04:56 +0200, Bernard wrote:
My sound card is included in my mother board ASUS P5LD2 SE. It is a SoundMax ADI 1986A. My system is not MSWIN, but Linux Debian Sarge on my desktop, Linux UBUNTU 8.04 (Hardy Heron) on my laptop. If you wish to get a more precise idea of what I get in digitalizing vinyls, here are a few links. OK - you have the one exception to the rule there. That's tough luck. Just about any external sound card will do if this is the job it is doing, Assuming that you would like it to carry on doing useful work later. something like the M-Audio Transit would do the job nicely. d |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Don Pearce" wrote in message news:4a47ef41.902389156@localhost... On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote: I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? USB is one option, PCI card or firewire adapters also more than adequate. There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all, without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record. Pretty close, but there are still a few I wouldn't use. Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the sound card? Or maybe he is using the microphone input? If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono preamplifier & de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of sound card you get. Nope, some USB boxes designed for the purpose have RIAA EQ built in. Maybe that's what he is after. MrT. |
#12
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... However many (most?) internal sound cards, particularly the ones built into the mother-board, typically suffer from poor SNR because of the hostile digital hash internal to the computer case. This is likely the reason for the recommendation for external ("USB") A/D conversion. In fact the best possible performance is from an internal PCI card, just ask Arny if you want to know which one :-) BTW, just because some motherboards have bad sound doesn't mean they ALL do. In general though it is simply a cheap addition as you would expect. Even a decade old 16 bit SoundBlaster or Audigy will do an adequate job on vinyl however. And you can pick them up in the trash these days. MrT. |
#13
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digitalizing vinyl records
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster live? The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and resample in software. It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days. When I digitized my albums, I used an outboard a/d (ackdac) and a sound card with an s/pdif input. Good for you, but the records were still the limiting factor. MrT. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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digitalizing vinyl records
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized well. I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing the sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten results which are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my turntable through my sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn close to "CD quality". Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the quality of the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play it. With a good cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and probably any modren sound card, good results are possible. You are actually in agreement. The Turntable, cartridge and especially record quality and cleanliness will matter *FAR* more than the soundcard these days. While a $20 soundcard will do the job, how many people buy a decent turntable & record cleaning machine that will have FAR more effect on the final result IME? Unfortunately they have a *FAR* higher price tag as well! MrT. |
#15
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message ... That being said, I have two laptops he one is an IBM Thinkpad T22, the other is a newer Thinkpad T42. The audio converters, from the standpoint of input-output response, are much better in the older T22 than in the newer T42! But I'd be surprised if you bothered using either of them to record anything! :-) MrT. |
#16
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:45:39 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster live? The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and resample in software. It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days. That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware, but when I palyed around with them around '01 and '02, they did so much processing that the sound was little better than an FM radio. The line input went through no fewer than four mixers and each one reduced the s/n. Others have documented EQ, compression and resampling done wether you want it to or not. |
#17
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Bernard" a écrit dans le message de news:
... Thanks to Everyone for your input. Hi to Everyone, I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific interface for that purpose ? ================================================== =========== I used to digitilize vinyl records as I have described here : http://www.a-reny.com/iexplorer/restauration.html But as time changes, one gets a new computer with an horrible internal sound card which automatically compresses when recording. (Asus : keep away from it) My perfect old sound cards don't fit in the new PCI slots of new computer motherboards. So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. This preamp is an RIAA preamp and works perfect without any hum or noise. Quite a satisfaction and cheap. (Don't remember the price) -- Allen RENY www.a-reny.com |
#18
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digitalizing vinyl records
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:
So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#19
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digitalizing vinyl records
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#20
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Jun 24, 1:07*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Save the difference in signal level and impedance, they're the same. Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) And, of course, it does not. Both are velocity devices, and the RIAA portion is always there, regardless. |
#21
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digitalizing vinyl records
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. An MC cartridge will require a different sensitivity preamp, or a transformer. geoff |
#23
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digitalizing vinyl records
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and resample in software. It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days. That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware, but when I palyed around with them around '01 and '02, they did so much processing that the sound was little better than an FM radio. The line input went through no fewer than four mixers and each one reduced the s/n. Others have documented EQ, compression and resampling done wether you want it to or not. Sure I've seen similar claims. I have made my own measurements though, and was quite confident in what the card *I* had could do, especially with non-factory drivers. There were so many versions however, I can't speak for them all. I use a MOTU Ultralite these days though, and an M-Audio card is in another computer :-) MrT. |
#24
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digitalizing vinyl records
"geoff" wrote in message ... No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. MrT. |
#25
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Buzz" wrote in message ... "Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message de news: ... "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com ================================================== ==== I should have said MM and high output MC turntables. Just look at the features here : http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html -- Allen RENY www.a-reny.com Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that is probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#26
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message u... "geoff" wrote in message ... No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. MrT. To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA equalisation. In the old days, amplifiers had 2Mohm inputs for ceramic cartridges, and these DID have the standard RIAA equalisation, just like MMs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#27
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:33:22 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote: "Buzz" wrote in message ... "Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message de news: ... "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com ================================================== ==== I should have said MM and high output MC turntables. Just look at the features here : http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html -- Allen RENY www.a-reny.com Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that is probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl. S. The OP has already posted a sample which makes it clear that he has a preamp with de-emphasis. What he needs is some way of getting round what is obviously a broken laptop. He needs a USB sound card (which will remain useful for many purposes in the future), not a dedicated phono digitizer, which will become junk the moment he digitized his last record - or gets bored with the whole stupid business, which is what will almost certainly happen. d |
#28
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Jun 25, 6:30*am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. Actually, if you understand why the magnetic phono preamp response is what it is, than it is. There are actually two components dealing with two separate properties. One is the "RIAA" playback equalization, which consists of a zero at 318 uS (about 500 Hz) and a pole at 75 uS (about 2120 Hz). This was developed and adopted in the '50s as a means of dealing with dynamic range and noise issues on LPs. This equalization MUST be handled by ALL types of cartridges, magnetic, ceramic, electret, strain gauge, whatever. In that sense, Geoff is absolutely 100% correct. There's a second response issue. Record (ignoring the RIAA EQ discussed above), are cut so that what exists on the groove is a facsimile of the time-dependent amplitude of the original waveform. Ceramic, electret and similar cartridges have an output voltage proportional to the instantaneous displacement of the stylus. Magnetic cartridges, on the other hand, have an output voltage proportional to the instantaneous velocity of the stylus. In other words, the output voltage is the first derivative of position with respect to time, which means its the first derivative of the original waveform's amplitude WRT time. The second component of a magnetic phono preamp's response is a broadband -6 dB slope. This is, in fact, a integration function: the output voltage is the integration over time of the input voltage. So, you take a waveform, you differentiate it with respect to time, then you integrate that result over time, and you end up with the original waveform back again. In a broad sense you could call it "equalization," but it's not in the sense that it's not correcting or compensating for anything: it's an inherent requirement of the medium, unlike the RIAA shelving EQ which exists to try to shoehorn a wider dynamic range into a limited range medium. |
#29
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA equalisation. To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of the original design. MrT. |
#30
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message ... On Jun 25, 6:30 am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote: No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. Actually, if you understand why the magnetic phono preamp response is what it is, than it is. There are actually two components dealing with two separate properties. One is the "RIAA" playback equalization, which consists of a zero at 318 uS (about 500 Hz) and a pole at 75 uS (about 2120 Hz). This was developed and adopted in the '50s as a means of dealing with dynamic range and noise issues on LPs. This equalization MUST be handled by ALL types of cartridges, magnetic, ceramic, electret, strain gauge, whatever. In that sense, Geoff is absolutely 100% correct. There's a second response issue. Record (ignoring the RIAA EQ discussed above), are cut so that what exists on the groove is a facsimile of the time-dependent amplitude of the original waveform. Ceramic, electret and similar cartridges have an output voltage proportional to the instantaneous displacement of the stylus. Magnetic cartridges, on the other hand, have an output voltage proportional to the instantaneous velocity of the stylus. In other words, the output voltage is the first derivative of position with respect to time, which means its the first derivative of the original waveform's amplitude WRT time. The second component of a magnetic phono preamp's response is a broadband -6 dB slope. This is, in fact, a integration function: the output voltage is the integration over time of the input voltage. So, you take a waveform, you differentiate it with respect to time, then you integrate that result over time, and you end up with the original waveform back again. In a broad sense you could call it "equalization," but it's not in the sense that it's not correcting or compensating for anything: it's an inherent requirement of the medium, unlike the RIAA shelving EQ which exists to try to shoehorn a wider dynamic range into a limited range medium. -------------------------------------------- All perfectly true, but ignores the fact that cheap compatibility was always a consideration, and the standard RIAA playback curve provided by the EQ components of a pre-amp designed for magnetic cartridges is not only unnecessary, but unsuitable for ceramic cartridges. The only reason for ceramic cartridges is low cost, and reducing the cost of the playback amp was also a major benefit. MrT. |
#31
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Don Pearce" wrote in message news:4a535310.1059001468@localhost... On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:33:22 +0100, "Serge Auckland" wrote: "Buzz" wrote in message ... "Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message de news: ... "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus: So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl" Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB. Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive moving-coil cartridges. (And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.) It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com ================================================== ==== I should have said MM and high output MC turntables. Just look at the features here : http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html -- Allen RENY www.a-reny.com Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that is probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl. S. The OP has already posted a sample which makes it clear that he has a preamp with de-emphasis. What he needs is some way of getting round what is obviously a broken laptop. He needs a USB sound card (which will remain useful for many purposes in the future), not a dedicated phono digitizer, which will become junk the moment he digitized his last record - or gets bored with the whole stupid business, which is what will almost certainly happen. d Agreed, however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good doesn't bode well. I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they wouldn't pass a back-to-back test with RMAA. In each case (I tried three different ones) they distorted either on output when the output was at 0dBFS (one even distorted at -2dBFS) or on the inputs when the level went up above about 0dBu. I ended up resuscitating an old laptop so I could run my Digigram PCMCIA card, which does +10dBu in or out with essentially zero distortion, albeit it cost at the time, about 10x what are now being charged for USB sound cards. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#32
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message u... "Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA equalisation. To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of the original design. MrT. I think you're getting confused here between input impedance and frequency response, i.e. equalisation. Records are recorded to the RIAA characteristic, which means that pickup cartridge's output will follow that characteristic, whatever the generator. Magnetic cartridges are inherently velocity sensitive, so the output will also be RIAA equalised, and so need de-equalising by the frequency response of the pre-amp to restore a flat signal. Ceramic cartridges are inherently amplitude sensitive, and if loaded with 2Mohms, produce a flat velocity response which can be equalised in the normal way. Give a ceramic cartridge 47kohms, and it's output will approximate to the RIAA eq, and so can feed a flat input. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#33
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
... however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good doesn't bode well. Strange, I find many good ones. I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they wouldn't pass a back-to-back test with RMAA. Strange, I find many good ones. In each case (I tried three different ones) they distorted either on output when the output was at 0dBFS That's what digital does. it clips hard for sure at 0 dB FS or in the real world, just a tad below that. (one even distorted at -2dBFS) Now that is uncalled for. Not good gear. I can see maybe -1 dB FS, but -2 is IMO too sleazy. or on the inputs when the level went up above about 0dBu. Most consumer audio interfaces are designed for FS = 1 volt rms. If you want to go higher, you may have to use an external analog attenuator. |
#34
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digitalizing vinyl records
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:45:39 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote: "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster live? The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and resample in software. It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days. That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware, They did. |
#35
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good doesn't bode well. Strange, I find many good ones. I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they wouldn't pass a back-to-back test with RMAA. Strange, I find many good ones. In each case (I tried three different ones) they distorted either on output when the output was at 0dBFS That's what digital does. it clips hard for sure at 0 dB FS or in the real world, just a tad below that. (one even distorted at -2dBFS) Now that is uncalled for. Not good gear. I can see maybe -1 dB FS, ut -2 is IMO too sleazy. or on the inputs when the level went up above about 0dBu. Most consumer audio interfaces are designed for FS = 1 volt rms. If you want to go higher, you may have to use an external analog attenuator. Any sound card that clips hard at 0dBFS is, in my view, broken. 0dBFS should be passed totally clean, given that so many CDs now are mastered right up to 0dBFS, playing one of these CDs through the sound card will make an already poor CD sound worse, so no, in my real world, Digital stuff is totally good to 0dBFS, not just to -1dB (or even -0.1dBFS). My now 10 year old Digigram card is, so why is modern stuff worse? As to levels, I should have made clear I require balanced analogue ins and outs and digital I/O as well, although in this case, unbalanced S-PDIF is fine, I don't need balanced AES-EBU. Ideally, I'd like the analogue ins and outs to provide EBU recommended levels of +18dBu for 0dBFS, but I'd be satisfied with +8dBu. Again, my 10 year old card does +10dBu in and out, so why not something modern? S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#36
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digitalizing vinyl records
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA equalisation. To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of the original design. I think you're getting confused here between input impedance and frequency response, i.e. equalisation. Records are recorded to the RIAA characteristic, which means that pickup cartridge's output will follow that characteristic, whatever the generator. Magnetic cartridges are inherently velocity sensitive, so the output will also be RIAA equalised, and so need de-equalising by the frequency response of the pre-amp to restore a flat signal. Ceramic cartridges are inherently amplitude sensitive, and if loaded with 2Mohms, produce a flat velocity response which can be equalised in the normal way. Give a ceramic cartridge 47kohms, and it's output will approximate to the RIAA eq, and so can feed a flat input. Someone's sure confused because I can't see how that's different to what I said. Unless you think it's all just a coincidence? MrT. |
#37
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digitalizing vinyl records
Buzz wrote:
I should have said MM and high output MC turntables. Just look at the features here : http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html Um, still no. Unless you are referring to the adjustable input 'capacity' (should say 'shunt capaitance'). Otherwise is iis claimiing an exceedingly accurate fixed adherence to the RIAA curve that is totally independant of cartridge. geoff |
#38
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digitalizing vinyl records
Mr.T wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message ... No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with the type of cartridge. Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. Do they have a built in RIAA curve or something ?!! geoff |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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digitalizing vinyl records
Serge Auckland wrote:
Any sound card that clips hard at 0dBFS is, in my view, broken. 0dBFS should be passed totally clean, given that so many CDs now are mastered right up to 0dBFS, playing one of these CDs through the sound card will make an already poor CD sound worse, so no, in my real world, Digital stuff is totally good to 0dBFS, not just to -1dB (or even -0.1dBFS). My now 10 year old Digigram card is, so why is modern stuff worse? Um, how can you possibly ever go over 0dBFS ? Do some homework as understand just how silly that makes you look ! geoff |
#40
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digitalizing vinyl records
On Jun 25, 6:57*pm, "geoff" wrote:
Mr.T wrote: Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types. Do they have a built in RIAA curve or something ?!! The can be cut to do a, well, vague approximation, of the 318-75 uS zero-ole pair, which is what the "RIAA" part is. It's not very accurate, but good enough for your el cheapo plop-and-play Remember that, intrinsically, these cartridges have a displacement-dependent output, not velocity-dependent, and thus do not require the -6 dB per octave integration functions. The old Micro Acoustics cartridge used an electret element, so it had a displacement-dependent output. It had an in-built passive differentiator which converted it to velocity-dependent output so it could be used with your typical MM input. |
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