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Bernard Bernard is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

Hi to Everyone,

I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:

Hi to Everyone,

I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly
adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all,
without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record.

Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the
sound card? If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono
preamplifier & de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of
sound card you get.

d
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AZ Nomad[_2_] AZ Nomad[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:
Hi to Everyone,


I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster live?

When I digitized my albums, I used an outboard a/d (ackdac) and a sound card
with an s/pdif input.
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Bernard" wrote in message
news
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a
meaningful response.

Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized
well.

If money matters to you, try a Behringer uca 202. About $30 in many music
and pro audio stores.

If you have a little money to spend, try a eMu 0202. Musician's Friend is
selling refurbs for about $80.

If you have a lot of money to spend you could make a nice contribution to a
charity... but otherwise one of the best audio interfaces around is still
the LynxTwo, for about $800.


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Dick Pierce Dick Pierce is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Jun 23, 11:02*am, Bernard wrote:
Hi to Everyone,

I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give
good results in digitilizing vinyls. Using my original
sound card give results that are rather poor in quality.


If you are going directly from the turntable output to
your sound card input, you're almost guaranteed
to have poor quality results. You'll have poor bass,
screechy highs, probably low levels and lots of
noise.

That's because none of the inputs on pretty much
ANY soundcard are not designed to properly handle
the output of a tunrtable.

Instead, you need to have an intermediate piece
of equipment which provides all of the functions
of a phono preamp, including matching, gain and
proper equalization. You could use an existing
receiver, preamplifier or integrated amplifier with
a phone input and connect the tap outputs to
your sound card. You could also go out and
buy a dedicated phono preamp for as little as
%50 to as high as one's insanity might allow
one to pay for such a device.

Once you have that in hand, you'll need to spend
a little time playing with gains to optimize the
signal levels, but from there you're good to go.

I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb
audio interface.


A USB audio interface will do the job, but it is not
necessary. A good sound card will be equally as
useful.

Could someone tell of his/her own experience
on a specific interface for that purpose ?


There is no "specific" interface for the job.
You need a good quality turntable, a good quality
phono preamp or system with a phono preamp,
and you need a good-quality sound card or external
analog-to-digotal converter to get the recording in
to your computer.

Many modern-day computers have quite audio
inputs amd ,ay well be more than up to the
task, given the rest of the equipment needed
above, so you may not need an external USB
(or fire-wire or whatever). That being said, I have
two laptops he one is an IBM Thinkpad T22, the
other is a newer Thinkpad T42. The audio converters,
from the standpoint of input-output response, are
much better in the older T22 than in the newer T42!
Figure that out.


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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On 6/23/2009 9:52 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"Bernard" wrote in message
news
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a
meaningful response.


True that. Would be nice to know what kind of sound card gave results
that were "poor in quality".

Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized
well.


I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing
the sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten
results which are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my
turntable through my sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn
close to "CD quality".

Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the
quality of the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play
it. With a good cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and
probably any modren sound card, good results are possible.

Clicks and pops are easily edited out by hand.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
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Michael Black[_2_] Michael Black[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 6/23/2009 9:52 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"Bernard" wrote in message
news
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


Since you've given zero specific information, it is hard to make a
meaningful response.


True that. Would be nice to know what kind of sound card gave results that
were "poor in quality".

Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized
well.


I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing the
sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten results which
are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my turntable through my
sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn close to "CD quality".

Read what he said again. He said it doesn't take anything particularly
special to do this. And he's right.

The original poster may be having some other issue, like a bad ground (or
a ground loop), or as somone suggested, no phono preamp. So he reads
around, and discovers that some suggest a USB audio card. He shifts
in that direction, not really grasping what's being said, so he comes
here looking for details based on that premise. But he didn't read
far enough along to know that the reason some might suggest a USB card
is not because "they are better" but because it gets the analog circuitry
away from the noisy computer, which may be a factor in some cases.

Or he may be mislaid by those USB turntables, that are a mere convenience.
Someone without a turntable has to buy one, so they might as well get one
that has a built in phono preamp, and then the electronics to digitize
the sound into a USB signal. Of course, those are what you pay for them,
and I just saw one locally for a hundred dollars which isn't going to beat
my 30 year old Lenco turntable with a Grado cartridge, going through some
stereo receiver for the phono preamp and then into whatever sound card
I have in my computer.

Michael

Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the quality of
the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play it. With a good
cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and probably any modren
sound card, good results are possible.

Clicks and pops are easily edited out by hand.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

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Bernard Bernard is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

Thanks to Everyone for your input.

At first, I am going to give some details that should have been in my
first post.

My pickyup (turntable) is not being plugged straight into the sound card.
A phono preamplifier is in between.

How poor are my digitilized results ? Well, the first time I listened to
these, I thought they were OK. It surely was nothing professional, but,
thinking of old vinyl records, it was not so bad. So I thought. But then I
decided to test the original vinyl records against the digitalized CDs;
using the same HiFi speakers and amplifier. I found that the difference
was very big, even though it seems a light one at first sight. I don't
know how to describe such a difference, so I will try my best to do so.
With the vinyl, the piano seems to be in the room, its sound is very
pleasurable. Listening the audio CD that I burnt from the digitalized
vinyl source, the difference may seem light at first, but it makes the
difference between something I am looking forward to listen again and
again, and something that I won't care about, even thought is is
supposedly the same thing.

My sound card is included in my mother board ASUS P5LD2 SE. It is a
SoundMax ADI 1986A. My system is not MSWIN, but Linux Debian Sarge on my
desktop, Linux UBUNTU 8.04 (Hardy Heron) on my laptop. If you wish to get
a more precise idea of what I get in digitalizing vinyls, here are a few
links.


http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip
http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip
http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.wav

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.mp3

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second.aup

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/premier_data.zip

http://www.teaser.fr/~bdebreil/musique/second_data.zip

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Bernard

Le Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:08:00 +0000, Don Pearce a écrit*:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:

Hi to Everyone,

I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly
adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all, without
exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record.

Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the sound
card? If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono preamplifier &
de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of sound card you get.

d


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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

"Don Pearce" wrote ...
Bernard wrote:
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly
adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all,
without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record.


Indeed, the specs (and likely real-world performance) in the
areas of frequency response, flatness, distortion, etc. are ever
so much better than any vinyl recording.

However many (most?) internal sound cards, particularly the
ones built into the mother-board, typically suffer from poor
SNR because of the hostile digital hash internal to the computer
case. This is likely the reason for the recommendation for
external ("USB") A/D conversion.


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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:04:56 +0200, Bernard wrote:

My sound card is included in my mother board ASUS P5LD2 SE. It is a
SoundMax ADI 1986A. My system is not MSWIN, but Linux Debian Sarge on my
desktop, Linux UBUNTU 8.04 (Hardy Heron) on my laptop. If you wish to get
a more precise idea of what I get in digitalizing vinyls, here are a few
links.


OK - you have the one exception to the rule there. That's tough luck.
Just about any external sound card will do if this is the job it is
doing, Assuming that you would like it to carry on doing useful work
later. something like the M-Audio Transit would do the job nicely.

d


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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a47ef41.902389156@localhost...
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:02:53 +0200, Bernard wrote:
I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?


USB is one option, PCI card or firewire adapters also more than adequate.

There is not a single sound card available today that could possibly
adversely affect the quality of a vinyl recording. They are all,
without exception, orders of magnitude better than any vinyl record.


Pretty close, but there are still a few I wouldn't use.

Are you by any chance trying to plug the pickup straight into the
sound card?


Or maybe he is using the microphone input?

If so, you are missing a vital component - the phono
preamplifier & de-emphasis unit. You will need this whatever sort of
sound card you get.


Nope, some USB boxes designed for the purpose have RIAA EQ built in. Maybe
that's what he is after.

MrT.



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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
However many (most?) internal sound cards, particularly the
ones built into the mother-board, typically suffer from poor
SNR because of the hostile digital hash internal to the computer
case. This is likely the reason for the recommendation for
external ("USB") A/D conversion.


In fact the best possible performance is from an internal PCI card, just ask
Arny if you want to know which one :-)
BTW, just because some motherboards have bad sound doesn't mean they ALL do.
In general though it is simply a cheap addition as you would expect.
Even a decade old 16 bit SoundBlaster or Audigy will do an adequate job on
vinyl however. And you can pick them up in the trash these days.

MrT.


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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster

live?

The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and
resample in software.
It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to
nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days.

When I digitized my albums, I used an outboard a/d (ackdac) and a sound

card
with an s/pdif input.


Good for you, but the records were still the limiting factor.

MrT.


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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Vinyl doesn't really take a magnificent audio interface to be digitized
well.


I have to disagree with that sweeping generalization. Without committing
the sin of making another one, all I can say is that I have gotten
results which are close to what I would call "magnificent" running my
turntable through my sound card; the resulting CDs were pretty damn
close to "CD quality".

Results will vary all over the place, of course, depending on the
quality of the vinyl being played, and the equipment being used to play
it. With a good cartridge (a Signet in my case), a decent amplifier, and
probably any modren sound card, good results are possible.


You are actually in agreement. The Turntable, cartridge and especially
record quality and cleanliness will matter *FAR* more than the soundcard
these days.

While a $20 soundcard will do the job, how many people buy a decent
turntable & record cleaning machine that will have FAR more effect on the
final result IME? Unfortunately they have a *FAR* higher price tag as well!

MrT.


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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...
That being said, I have
two laptops he one is an IBM Thinkpad T22, the
other is a newer Thinkpad T42. The audio converters,
from the standpoint of input-output response, are
much better in the older T22 than in the newer T42!


But I'd be surprised if you bothered using either of them to record
anything! :-)

MrT.




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AZ Nomad[_2_] AZ Nomad[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:45:39 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster

live?


The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and
resample in software.
It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to
nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days.


That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware, but
when I palyed around with them around '01 and '02, they did so much
processing that the sound was little better than an FM radio.
The line input went through no fewer than four mixers and each one
reduced the s/n. Others have documented EQ, compression and resampling
done wether you want it to or not.
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Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

"Bernard" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Thanks to Everyone for your input.

Hi to Everyone,

I am looking for an usb audio interface that would give good results in
digitilizing vinyls. Using my original sound card give results that are
rather poor in quality. I read somewhere that I ought to have a usb audio
interface. Could someone tell of his/her own experience on a specific
interface for that purpose ?



================================================== ===========

I used to digitilize vinyl records as I have described here :

http://www.a-reny.com/iexplorer/restauration.html

But as time changes, one gets a new computer with an horrible internal
sound card which automatically compresses when recording. (Asus : keep away
from it)

My perfect old sound cards don't fit in the new PCI slots of new computer
motherboards.

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.
This preamp is an RIAA preamp and works perfect without any hum or noise.

Quite a satisfaction and cheap. (Don't remember the price)

--
Allen RENY
www.a-reny.com


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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.


Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.


Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)



It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs are
different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but there
are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

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Dick Pierce Dick Pierce is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Jun 24, 1:07*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.


Should be "moving magnet", no?


Save the difference in signal level and impedance,
they're the same.

Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)


And, of course, it does not. Both are velocity devices,
and the RIAA portion is always there, regardless.


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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.


Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)


No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with
the type of cartridge.

An MC cartridge will require a different sensitivity preamp, or a
transformer.

geoff


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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48

and
resample in software.
It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to
nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days.


That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware, but
when I palyed around with them around '01 and '02, they did so much
processing that the sound was little better than an FM radio.
The line input went through no fewer than four mixers and each one
reduced the s/n. Others have documented EQ, compression and resampling
done wether you want it to or not.


Sure I've seen similar claims. I have made my own measurements though, and
was quite confident in what the card *I* had could do, especially with
non-factory drivers. There were so many versions however, I can't speak for
them all.
I use a MOTU Ultralite these days though, and an M-Audio card is in another
computer :-)

MrT.




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"geoff" wrote in message
...
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with
the type of cartridge.


Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo USB
turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same
EQ as for magnetic types.

MrT.


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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Buzz" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.

Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)



It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs
are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but
there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com
================================================== ====

I should have said MM and high output MC turntables.

Just look at the features here :

http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html

--
Allen RENY
www.a-reny.com


Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that is
probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N
ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com



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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"geoff" wrote in message
...
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do with
the type of cartridge.


Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new el-cheapo
USB
turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do NOT require the same
EQ as for magnetic types.

MrT.



To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by
feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they
approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA
equalisation. In the old days, amplifiers had 2Mohm inputs for ceramic
cartridges, and these DID have the standard RIAA equalisation, just like
MMs.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

  #27   Report Post  
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:33:22 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:


"Buzz" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.

Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)



It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs
are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but
there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com
================================================== ====

I should have said MM and high output MC turntables.

Just look at the features here :

http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html

--
Allen RENY
www.a-reny.com


Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that is
probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N
ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl.

S.


The OP has already posted a sample which makes it clear that he has a
preamp with de-emphasis. What he needs is some way of getting round
what is obviously a broken laptop. He needs a USB sound card (which
will remain useful for many purposes in the future), not a dedicated
phono digitizer, which will become junk the moment he digitized his
last record - or gets bored with the whole stupid business, which is
what will almost certainly happen.

d
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Dick Pierce Dick Pierce is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

On Jun 25, 6:30*am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP.
Nothing to do with the type of cartridge.


Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of
the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic
cartridges once more) do NOT require the same
EQ as for magnetic types.


Actually, if you understand why the magnetic phono preamp
response is what it is, than it is. There are actually two
components dealing with two separate properties. One
is the "RIAA" playback equalization, which consists of a
zero at 318 uS (about 500 Hz) and a pole at 75 uS (about
2120 Hz). This was developed and adopted in the '50s
as a means of dealing with dynamic range and noise
issues on LPs. This equalization MUST be handled by
ALL types of cartridges, magnetic, ceramic, electret,
strain gauge, whatever. In that sense, Geoff is absolutely
100% correct.

There's a second response issue. Record (ignoring the
RIAA EQ discussed above), are cut so that what exists
on the groove is a facsimile of the time-dependent
amplitude of the original waveform.

Ceramic, electret and similar cartridges have an
output voltage proportional to the instantaneous
displacement of the stylus. Magnetic cartridges,
on the other hand, have an output voltage
proportional to the instantaneous velocity of the
stylus. In other words, the output voltage is the
first derivative of position with respect to time,
which means its the first derivative of the original
waveform's amplitude WRT time.

The second component of a magnetic phono preamp's
response is a broadband -6 dB slope. This is, in fact,
a integration function: the output voltage is the integration
over time of the input voltage.

So, you take a waveform, you differentiate it with
respect to time, then you integrate that result
over time, and you end up with the original waveform
back again.

In a broad sense you could call it "equalization,"
but it's not in the sense that it's not correcting or
compensating for anything: it's an inherent
requirement of the medium, unlike the RIAA
shelving EQ which exists to try to shoehorn
a wider dynamic range into a limited range
medium.

  #29   Report Post  
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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by
feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k) they
approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA
equalisation.


To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already
have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the
standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of the
original design.

MrT.


  #30   Report Post  
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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Posts: 2,108
Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...
On Jun 25, 6:30 am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP.
Nothing to do with the type of cartridge.


Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of
the new el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic
cartridges once more) do NOT require the same
EQ as for magnetic types.


Actually, if you understand why the magnetic phono preamp
response is what it is, than it is. There are actually two
components dealing with two separate properties. One
is the "RIAA" playback equalization, which consists of a
zero at 318 uS (about 500 Hz) and a pole at 75 uS (about
2120 Hz). This was developed and adopted in the '50s
as a means of dealing with dynamic range and noise
issues on LPs. This equalization MUST be handled by
ALL types of cartridges, magnetic, ceramic, electret,
strain gauge, whatever. In that sense, Geoff is absolutely
100% correct.

There's a second response issue. Record (ignoring the
RIAA EQ discussed above), are cut so that what exists
on the groove is a facsimile of the time-dependent
amplitude of the original waveform.

Ceramic, electret and similar cartridges have an
output voltage proportional to the instantaneous
displacement of the stylus. Magnetic cartridges,
on the other hand, have an output voltage
proportional to the instantaneous velocity of the
stylus. In other words, the output voltage is the
first derivative of position with respect to time,
which means its the first derivative of the original
waveform's amplitude WRT time.

The second component of a magnetic phono preamp's
response is a broadband -6 dB slope. This is, in fact,
a integration function: the output voltage is the integration
over time of the input voltage.

So, you take a waveform, you differentiate it with
respect to time, then you integrate that result
over time, and you end up with the original waveform
back again.

In a broad sense you could call it "equalization,"
but it's not in the sense that it's not correcting or
compensating for anything: it's an inherent
requirement of the medium, unlike the RIAA
shelving EQ which exists to try to shoehorn
a wider dynamic range into a limited range
medium.

--------------------------------------------

All perfectly true, but ignores the fact that cheap compatibility was always
a consideration, and the standard RIAA playback curve provided by the EQ
components of a pre-amp designed for magnetic cartridges is not only
unnecessary, but unsuitable for ceramic cartridges. The only reason for
ceramic cartridges is low cost, and reducing the cost of the playback amp
was also a major benefit.

MrT.




  #31   Report Post  
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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Posts: 175
Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a535310.1059001468@localhost...
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:33:22 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:


"Buzz" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" a écrit dans le message
de
news: ...

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 6/24/2009 9:39 AM Buzz spake thus:

So I got a little box which is a "Terratec PreAmp IVinyl"
Just plug in your moving coil turntable and the output is USB.

Should be "moving magnet", no? Not many of us have them expen$ive
moving-coil cartridges.

(And of course MC requires different equalization from MM.)



It doesn't! The equalisation is identical for MM or MCs. The gain needs
are different, as most MCs are significantly lower output than MMs, but
there are plenty of MCs with similar levels of output to MMs.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com
================================================== ====

I should have said MM and high output MC turntables.

Just look at the features here :

http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html

--
Allen RENY
www.a-reny.com


Looks fine for the purpose. The input sensitivity is a bit low, but that
is
probably a good compromise to achieve a higher overload level, as the S/N
ratio is far in excess of what you need for vinyl.

S.


The OP has already posted a sample which makes it clear that he has a
preamp with de-emphasis. What he needs is some way of getting round
what is obviously a broken laptop. He needs a USB sound card (which
will remain useful for many purposes in the future), not a dedicated
phono digitizer, which will become junk the moment he digitized his
last record - or gets bored with the whole stupid business, which is
what will almost certainly happen.

d


Agreed, however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good
doesn't bode well. I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they
wouldn't pass a back-to-back test with RMAA. In each case (I tried three
different ones) they distorted either on output when the output was at 0dBFS
(one even distorted at -2dBFS) or on the inputs when the level went up above
about 0dBu. I ended up resuscitating an old laptop so I could run my
Digigram PCMCIA card, which does +10dBu in or out with essentially zero
distortion, albeit it cost at the time, about 10x what are now being charged
for USB sound cards.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Posts: 175
Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that by
feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k)
they
approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA
equalisation.


To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already
have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the
standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of the
original design.

MrT.


I think you're getting confused here between input impedance and frequency
response, i.e. equalisation. Records are recorded to the RIAA
characteristic, which means that pickup cartridge's output will follow that
characteristic, whatever the generator. Magnetic cartridges are inherently
velocity sensitive, so the output will also be RIAA equalised, and so need
de-equalising by the frequency response of the pre-amp to restore a flat
signal. Ceramic cartridges are inherently amplitude sensitive, and if loaded
with 2Mohms, produce a flat velocity response which can be equalised in the
normal way. Give a ceramic cartridge 47kohms, and it's output will
approximate to the RIAA eq, and so can feed a flat input.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Posts: 17,262
Default digitalizing vinyl records

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good doesn't
bode well.


Strange, I find many good ones.

I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they wouldn't pass a
back-to-back test with RMAA.


Strange, I find many good ones.


In each case (I tried three different ones) they distorted either on
output when the output was at 0dBFS


That's what digital does. it clips hard for sure at 0 dB FS or in the real
world, just a tad below that.


(one even distorted at -2dBFS)


Now that is uncalled for. Not good gear. I can see maybe -1 dB FS, but -2
is IMO too sleazy.


or on the inputs when the level went up above about 0dBu.



Most consumer audio interfaces are designed for FS = 1 volt rms. If you
want to go higher, you may have to use an external analog attenuator.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records


"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:45:39 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
How are they poor? noisy? EQ'd and overprocessed like the soundblaster

live?


The soundblaster live doesn't EQ or process at all if you record 16/48 and
resample in software.
It's quite adequate for vinyl, although you can get better for next to
nothing, so I wouldn't personally bother with one these days.


That's not my experience with it. Maybe they rewrote their firmware,


They did.



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Serge Auckland[_2_] Serge Auckland[_2_] is offline
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Posts: 175
Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

however, my own attempts to get a USB sound card that was any good
doesn't bode well.


Strange, I find many good ones.

I tried several, from Alesis and others, and they wouldn't pass a
back-to-back test with RMAA.


Strange, I find many good ones.


In each case (I tried three different ones) they distorted either on
output when the output was at 0dBFS


That's what digital does. it clips hard for sure at 0 dB FS or in the real
world, just a tad below that.


(one even distorted at -2dBFS)


Now that is uncalled for. Not good gear. I can see maybe -1 dB FS,
ut -2 is IMO too sleazy.


or on the inputs when the level went up above about 0dBu.



Most consumer audio interfaces are designed for FS = 1 volt rms. If you
want to go higher, you may have to use an external analog attenuator.




Any sound card that clips hard at 0dBFS is, in my view, broken. 0dBFS should
be passed totally clean, given that so many CDs now are mastered right up to
0dBFS, playing one of these CDs through the sound card will make an already
poor CD sound worse, so no, in my real world, Digital stuff is totally good
to 0dBFS, not just to -1dB (or even -0.1dBFS). My now 10 year old Digigram
card is, so why is modern stuff worse?

As to levels, I should have made clear I require balanced analogue ins and
outs and digital I/O as well, although in this case, unbalanced S-PDIF is
fine, I don't need balanced AES-EBU. Ideally, I'd like the analogue ins and
outs to provide EBU recommended levels of +18dBu for 0dBFS, but I'd be
satisfied with +8dBu. Again, my 10 year old card does +10dBu in and out, so
why not something modern?

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com



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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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Posts: 2,108
Default digitalizing vinyl records


"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
To be pedantic, they DO require the same equalisation, it's just that

by
feeding a ceramic cartridge into a low(ish) impedance (like 47k-100k)
they
approximately self-equalise, so you don't need an input with RIAA
equalisation.


To be pedantic, you don't need *to add* the same EQ, the records already
have an EQ designed to work with the inherent response achieved with the
standard input impedance. Cheap compatibility was a considered part of

the
original design.


I think you're getting confused here between input impedance and frequency
response, i.e. equalisation. Records are recorded to the RIAA
characteristic, which means that pickup cartridge's output will follow

that
characteristic, whatever the generator. Magnetic cartridges are inherently
velocity sensitive, so the output will also be RIAA equalised, and so need
de-equalising by the frequency response of the pre-amp to restore a flat
signal. Ceramic cartridges are inherently amplitude sensitive, and if

loaded
with 2Mohms, produce a flat velocity response which can be equalised in

the
normal way. Give a ceramic cartridge 47kohms, and it's output will
approximate to the RIAA eq, and so can feed a flat input.


Someone's sure confused because I can't see how that's different to what I
said. Unless you think it's all just a coincidence?

MrT.


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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

Buzz wrote:


I should have said MM and high output MC turntables.

Just look at the features here :

http://data.terratec.net/site/ivinyl...nicalData.html


Um, still no. Unless you are referring to the adjustable input 'capacity'
(should say 'shunt capaitance').

Otherwise is iis claimiing an exceedingly accurate fixed adherence to the
RIAA curve that is totally independant of cartridge.

geoff


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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Mr.T wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
No it doesn't - the RIAA curve is a factnor of the LP. Nothing to do
with the type of cartridge.


Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new
el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do
NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types.


Do they have a built in RIAA curve or something ?!!

geoff


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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Default digitalizing vinyl records

Serge Auckland wrote:


Any sound card that clips hard at 0dBFS is, in my view, broken. 0dBFS
should be passed totally clean, given that so many CDs now are
mastered right up to 0dBFS, playing one of these CDs through the
sound card will make an already poor CD sound worse, so no, in my
real world, Digital stuff is totally good to 0dBFS, not just to -1dB
(or even -0.1dBFS). My now 10 year old Digigram card is, so why is
modern stuff worse?


Um, how can you possibly ever go over 0dBFS ? Do some homework as
understand just how silly that makes you look !


geoff


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Dick Pierce Dick Pierce is offline
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On Jun 25, 6:57*pm, "geoff" wrote:
Mr.T wrote:
Not so, a ceramic, or crystal cartridge, (and some of the new
el-cheapo USB turntables use cheap ceramic cartridges once more) do
NOT require the same EQ as for magnetic types.


Do they have a built in RIAA curve or something ?!!


The can be cut to do a, well, vague approximation,
of the 318-75 uS zero-ole pair, which is what the
"RIAA" part is. It's not very accurate, but good
enough for your el cheapo plop-and-play

Remember that, intrinsically, these
cartridges have a displacement-dependent output,
not velocity-dependent, and thus do not require
the -6 dB per octave integration functions.

The old Micro Acoustics cartridge used an electret
element, so it had a displacement-dependent output.
It had an in-built passive differentiator which converted
it to velocity-dependent output so it could be used
with your typical MM input.

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