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#1
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CNN Article on Music quality
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark |
#2
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CNN Article on Music quality
On Feb 23, 12:36*pm, Mark wrote:
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But *in my opinion, the biggest *technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the *MP3 compression.... *the problem *IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark Right, but 128kbps MP3s have ungodly amounts of artifacts. I'll admit that 16-bit isn't so bad. I use 320kbps AAC for everything mobile, FLAC otherwise. Sounds very good. Most of my music isn't compressed that much |
#3
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CNN Article on Music quality
On 2/23/2011 12:36 PM, Mark wrote:
But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. I didn't read the article yet, but I'll tell you this. I'm rarely sufficiently attentive to the technical details of music that I hear that MP3 encoding or even reduced dynamic range doesn't bother me. What I find wrong with music today is that there's about as much good (IMHO) music being made as ever, but there's so much more bad music that the "pool" is diluted. Of course radio stations have to play a little of everything, so I'm hearing proportionally less music that I actually enjoy. This is a consequence of, among other things like inexpensive recording equipment, easy and cheap downloadable MP3 distribution. But they know darn well that they can't sell many USB flash drives loaded with 50 songs for $50. Who would want to listen to 50 songs by anyone who would do that, anyway? -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#4
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CNN Article on Music quality
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:36:38 -0500, Mark wrote
(in article ): Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark Like CNN would know. :id I say that out loud?":: Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#5
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CNN Article on Music quality
Ty Ford wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:36:38 -0500, Mark wrote (in article ): Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark Like CNN would know. :id I say that out loud?":: I hope so. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#6
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CNN Article on Music quality
"Mark" wrote in message
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Why it will be bad for users: http://gizmodo.com/#!5768446/why-24+...-bad-for-users |
#7
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CNN Article on Music quality
On Feb 24, 2:39*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Mark" wrote in message Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But *in my opinion, the biggest *technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the *MP3 compression.... *the problem *IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Why it will be bad for users: http://gizmodo.com/#!5768446/why-24+...-bad-for-users while I hate squashed music as much as anyone..., in light of the protests going on in the Middle East and in Wisconsin, this seems a little off the wall... "When modern music is mixed to blow your ears off already, it negates the dynamic benefits the digital revolution once promised. This is a cultural issue within the industry, which faces protest on March 25 with Dynamic Range Day." I see visions of burning compressors in the streets. Mark |
#8
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CNN Article on Music quality
On 2/24/2011 2:39 PM, Arny Krueger wrote:
Why it will be bad for users: http://gizmodo.com/#!5768446/why-24+...-bad-for-users What a bunch of drivel! Producers won't let 24-bit files out the door with any more dynamic range than they could get out of 16-bit files if they let THEM out the door. Give the listeners dynamic range and they'll say "This file isn't loud enough." Witness all the amateur recording musicians who have exactly that complaint and they get always get the answer "Those CDs have been MASTERED and yours hasn't. That's why it's not as loud." Show me the audiophile with Dr. Dre headphones and I'll show him a 24-bit file to play. Bet he'll ask for it to be turned up. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#9
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CNN Article on Music quality
Mike Rivers wrote:
Show me the audiophile with Dr. Dre headphones and I'll show him a 24-bit file to play. Bet he'll ask for it to be turned up. I saw the Dr. Dre headphones on display at the AES show and I picked them up, but the sound coming out of them was so loud I was afraid to put them on my head. There was a button on the demo panel marked "PLAY IT LOUD" that would increase the volume beyond this point. I did not press it. My suspicion is that the intended use of these headphones is to drive people deaf. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#10
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CNN Article on Music quality
On Feb 23, 9:36*am, Mark wrote:
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But *in my opinion, the biggest *technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the *MP3 compression.... *the problem *IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark It's interesting that a Mac standard audio program like Peak, won't let you make an MP3 from a 24 bit file. You have to convert it to 16 bit before the option to make an MP3 comes up. |
#11
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CNN Article on Music quality
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#13
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CNN Article on Music quality
Mark wrote:
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark How about the fact that it is tuneless and repiticious, and not worth recording in any case? |
#14
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CNN Article on Music quality
cedricl wrote:
On Feb 23, 9:36 am, Mark wrote: Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark It's interesting that a Mac standard audio program like Peak, won't let you make an MP3 from a 24 bit file. You have to convert it to 16 bit before the option to make an MP3 comes up. That has nothing to do with Macs, and evertyhing to do with Peak. Logic will make you an MP3 from a 24 bit file just fine. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#15
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CNN Article on Music quality
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
On 2/24/2011 2:39 PM, Arny Krueger wrote: Why it will be bad for users: http://gizmodo.com/#!5768446/why-24+...-bad-for-users Producers won't let 24-bit files out the door with any more dynamic range than they could get out of 16-bit files if they let THEM out the door. The irony is that there are few if any performances that come close to taxing the dynamic range of 16 bits done right. Most live performances have dynamic range in the 65-75 dB range max, and that's about 20 dB less than what good a job of 16 bits can deliver. Give the listeners dynamic range and they'll say "This file isn't loud enough." Yup, I can't hear the quiet sections when I'm driving on rough pavement. Witness all the amateur recording musicians who have exactly that complaint and they get always get the answer "Those CDs have been MASTERED and yours hasn't. That's why it's not as loud." Not realizing that people listen to music for excitement, and excitement comes from contrast, not just loud, loud, loud. Show me the audiophile with Dr. Dre headphones and I'll show him a 24-bit file to play. Bet he'll ask for it to be turned up. I spend a fair amount of time conferencing with people who use earphones, headphones, and portable digital players as their primary listening tools. The vast majority of the complaints trace back to not enough loudness. It's really pretty strange. Manufacturers particularly in Europe artifically limit the output of their headphone jacks for political reasons. What do you call a device with 4.5 volts of VCC that can only crank out about 1 volt of signal? This has created a market for ultra-efficient low impedance transducers so that the equipment is practical for people to use in the real world. |
#16
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CNN Article on Music quality
On 2/25/2011 7:42 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
The irony is that there are few if any performances that come close to taxing the dynamic range of 16 bits done right. Most live performances have dynamic range in the 65-75 dB range max, and that's about 20 dB less than what good a job of 16 bits can deliver. When you consider the entire system (which may include traffic noise, a TV set in the next room, the neighbor mowing his lawn, or a screaming baby, the actual usable dynamic range for most people is 35-40 dB. That's plenty to have a sense of dynamics in the performance, but 6 dB isn't. I spend a fair amount of time conferencing with people who use earphones, headphones, and portable digital players as their primary listening tools. The vast majority of the complaints trace back to not enough loudness. I think that the makers of portable devices are to blame for that, some out of consideration of the users' hearing, others out of consideration for battery life. I don't know what kind of electrical power you can get from the headphone output of a $500 iPad, but I can tell you that my $20 MP3 player requires me to run it at full volume in order to hear it adequately when listening in an airplane, on my Sennheiser noise canceling headphones. These low voltage, low power devices just don't move much air. It's really pretty strange. Manufacturers particularly in Europe artifically limit the output of their headphone jacks for political reasons. What do you call a device with 4.5 volts of VCC that can only crank out about 1 volt of signal? Safe??? I remember one version of the Sony Walkman that had a red LED that blinked when the output level was (what they considered) harmful. I'm sure the first think any kid wanted to do was see that LED light. This has created a market for ultra-efficient low impedance transducers so that the equipment is practical for people to use in the real world. I haven't been following efficiency, but I expect that it can be better for properly fitted in-ear phones than over-the-head phones. Lots of netlore about the impedance of the phones being the problem, whenever someone complains about low volume. But power is power. Ohm's Law still applies. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#17
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CNN Article on Music quality
Il 23/02/2011 18.36, Mark ha scritto:
Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark totally agree... No reasons, right now, to try to develop higher resolution standards for music distribution other than CDDA because the main quality bottleneck IS this horrible habit. alex |
#18
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CNN Article on Music quality
Il 25/02/2011 17.15, alex ha scritto:
Il 23/02/2011 18.36, Mark ha scritto: Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark totally agree... No reasons, right now, to try to develop higher resolution standards for music distribution other than CDDA because the main quality bottleneck IS this horrible habit. alex obviously i mean the "intended" loss of dynamic range induced to raise the loudness, which is what the OP intended IMHO... |
#19
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CNN Article on Music quality
(hank alrich) wrote in news:1jx7r2c.1v9f14p4ywanuN%
: Steve Hawkins wrote: Mark wrote in news:60a619c9-e151-4f24-8ac4- : Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark All I see is Apple creating a reason to buy a new iPod. Steve Hawkins An iPod will play a 24 bit wav file already. Assuming you already have one. :-) A lot of folks don't like MP3's. Steve Hawkins |
#20
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CNN Article on Music quality
I'm on the third floor in a not urban neighborhood, four houses from
the corner. Sometimes when a car is at the corner red light playing their audio, which the windows up, not only is it too loud in my apartment, it literally rumbles my chest and I submit to holding my ears to shield against the discomfort until the light changes. The guy in the car is who these headphones must be made for. Or more likely wannabees who don't have cars. I completely understand that there is more to one's music experience than the details in the music itself. At many times for me music has had a role where it is important to the moment but not in a critical way. And the guy in the car is certainly no more guilty than the guitarist with two full stacks in a club, so it's nothing new. But in the past the abuse came from users turning it up extra loud, or having four cabinets when one would do, not from products marketed for abuse But it has successfully gotten out of hand as a cultural thing beyond the musicians/producers making the music, so now the people supplying the music and hardware can claim the tailis wagging the dog. On Feb 24, 7:31*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Mike Rivers wrote: Show me the audiophile with Dr. Dre headphones and I'll show him a 24-bit file to play. *Bet he'll ask for it to be turned up. I saw the Dr. Dre headphones on display at the AES show and I picked them up, but the sound coming out of them was so loud I was afraid to put them on my head. There was a button on the demo panel marked "PLAY IT LOUD" that would increase the volume beyond this point. *I did not press it. My suspicion is that the intended use of these headphones is to drive people deaf. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
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CNN Article on Music quality
Steve Hawkins wrote:
Mark wrote in news:60a619c9-e151-4f24-8ac4- : Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark All I see is Apple creating a reason to buy a new iPod. Steve Hawkins I finallyt succumbed to the Dark Side and got a 64GB one. Now have it 1/3 full with about 1200 CDs in lossless. geoff |
#22
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CNN Article on Music quality
alex wrote:
Il 23/02/2011 18.36, Mark ha scritto: Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark totally agree... No reasons, right now, to try to develop higher resolution standards for music distribution other than CDDA because the main quality bottleneck IS this horrible habit. alex Why pander to the lowest common denominator? Why not offer something for people who don't have that habit? Bad habits needn't become an all encompassing self-fulfilling prophesy. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#23
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CNN Article on Music quality
Steve Hawkins wrote:
(hank alrich) wrote in news:1jx7r2c.1v9f14p4ywanuN% : Steve Hawkins wrote: Mark wrote in news:60a619c9-e151-4f24-8ac4- : Interesting article... http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/...sic/index.html But in my opinion, the biggest technical quality problem with new music is not the 16 bit depth not even the MP3 compression.... the problem IMO is the hyper dynamic range compression. And that was not even mentioned in the article. Mark All I see is Apple creating a reason to buy a new iPod. Steve Hawkins An iPod will play a 24 bit wav file already. Assuming you already have one. :-) A lot of folks don't like MP3's. Steve Hawkins Steve, iPods have been able to play wav files from the gitgo. The obivous catch or some folks is that you can't put a zillion wavs in the same amount of storage space. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#24
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CNN Article on Music quality
On 2/25/2011 7:16 PM, hank alrich wrote:
Why pander to the lowest common denominator? Why not offer something for people who don't have that habit? Bad habits needn't become an all encompassing self-fulfilling prophesy. I suspect that it's pandering to the lowest common denominator dealer, and the user just gets dragged along for the ride. The dealers have an easier time selling a product if they say that that stores 2,000 CDs than if it stores 200. And forget about them explaining to the customer about the differences between PCM, MP3 and FLAC encoding. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#25
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CNN Article on Music quality
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/25/2011 7:16 PM, hank alrich wrote: Why pander to the lowest common denominator? Why not offer something for people who don't have that habit? Bad habits needn't become an all encompassing self-fulfilling prophesy. I suspect that it's pandering to the lowest common denominator dealer, and the user just gets dragged along for the ride. The dealers have an easier time selling a product if they say that that stores 2,000 CDs than if it stores 200. And forget about them explaining to the customer about the differences between PCM, MP3 and FLAC encoding. Can we plese have something for those who already know the difference? g -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#26
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CNN Article on Music quality
Of course, there's always the issue of how good your sound system is -
a pair of s*** iPod headphones will still sound horrible with 24/192 lossless audio. Then there's the fact that the most popular forms of distribution (CDs and MP3s) are 16-bit. HDCD/SACD/DVD-A didn't take off for a reason - the current format is good enough, and changing the ENTIRE industry takes a while and involves ugly format wars. Also, MP3s are REALLY outdated - as in 1993 outdated. If you want quality, just make everything AAC, which can be done by the manufacturers, since consumers don't care and they already work on most devices (is that a run-on sentence?). What we need is a portable music player for audiophiles - 24/192 capable, with 250GB of storage. I'm half tempted to build one. |
#27
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CNN Article on Music quality
On 2/26/2011 9:54 PM, gjsmo wrote:
What we need is a portable music player for audiophiles - 24/192 capable, with 250GB of storage. I'm half tempted to build one. I saw something like that at CES a year or two back. I think it might have been up to 96 kHz sample rate, but that's more than anyone needs anyway. Definitely 24-bit. What they really need to go along with it is a portable listening room with a comfortable couch. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#28
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CNN Article on Music quality
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:16:39 -0500, Mike Rivers wrote:
When you consider the entire system (which may include traffic noise, a TV set in the next room, the neighbor mowing his lawn, or a screaming baby, the actual usable dynamic range for most people is 35-40 dB. That's plenty to have a sense of dynamics in the performance, but 6 dB isn't. I take it you are familiar with this classic approach to the problem: "Dynamic Range versus Ambient Noise" http://sound.westhost.com/dynamic-range.htm The footnotes say the article was published around 1974, but from my own memory it must have been 1970 or earlier. They also correctly point out that 2kW of amplifier power in a home system was regarded as an outrageous joke then, whereas it's not impossible now. I later discovered the real author behind the "George Izzard O'Veering" pseudonym was John Linsley Hood, who published a number of well-regarded amplifier design articles in the same magazine. -- Anahata --/-- http://www.treewind.co.uk +44 (0)1638 720444 |
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