[Edmund[_2_]]

Hi experts,
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements.
A few things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.
2 A way of €œmaking€� such sound file from a PCM data text file.
3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til
a least 45 kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator
but this generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz
with a PC / laptop ?
Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

Thanks

Edmund

[Don Pearce]

Edmund wrote:
Hi experts,
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements.
A few things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.
2 A way of €œmaking€� such sound file from a PCM data text file.
3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til
a least 45 kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator
but this generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz
with a PC / laptop ?
Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

Thanks

Edmund

This is a problem in several bits.

Any player should play 192k sampled sounds provided your sound card will
support that rate - this is a matter of drivers, not programmes.

Text is a valid PCM format (look up RIFF headers in Google for the full
list of formats you might find enclosed in a .WAV wrapper). Some systems
are not set up to read text PCM, though.

For creating and recording sounds/signals your best bet is probably an
audio editor. Audacity is a powerful piece of freeware that will do
anything reasonable you need.

For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will always
cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

d

[Richard Crowley]

"Edmund" wrote ...
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements.
A few things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

So go shopping for a sound card that fits your requirements.
Don't be surprised if you don't find any popular-priced
products that will have that range, however. You may be
forced to look at industrial lab equipment if you want
waveform generation up in those ranges.

2 A way of €œmaking€� such sound file from a PCM data text file.

The math for creating sine waves is pretty simple. Most
any programming language (even one-chip microcontrollers)
have a "sine" function.

3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

Are you sure you want that? You are talking about 230,400,000
sample values per channel. Do you have the software it takes
to analyze (or even view) a text file that large?

You also don't mention any bit-depths (8 bit?, 16 bit?,
24 bit?) What is the application?

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til
a least 45 kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator
but this generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

The only difference between a sine wave at 1KHz and a sine
wave at 100KHz is the period. The math is the same

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz
with a PC / laptop ?

No difference from the one that will do 9.6 KHz.
The difference is in the hardware, not the software or the data.

Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

How are you making the files you are using now?

There are free and inexpensive software applications that
will create various waveforms using your computer sound
card. Google can find them for you in a few milliseconds.

If you get hardware that supports 192KHz, it will almost
certainly come with software that will run it, or at least
demonstrate its capabilities.

[Serge Auckland[_2_]]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
. ..
"Edmund" wrote ...
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements.
A few things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

So go shopping for a sound card that fits your requirements.
Don't be surprised if you don't find any popular-priced
products that will have that range, however. You may be
forced to look at industrial lab equipment if you want
waveform generation up in those ranges.

2 A way of €œmaking€� such sound file from a PCM data text file.

The math for creating sine waves is pretty simple. Most
any programming language (even one-chip microcontrollers)
have a "sine" function.

3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

Are you sure you want that? You are talking about 230,400,000
sample values per channel. Do you have the software it takes
to analyze (or even view) a text file that large?

You also don't mention any bit-depths (8 bit?, 16 bit?,
24 bit?) What is the application?

An editor like Audacity or Cool Edit will display a file's waveform however
long it is, and can be zoomed down to individual samples. It doesn't have a
text file function, but for oscilloscope-type analysis, it's extremely
useful.

As for waveform generation, both Audacity and Cool Edit will generate white
noise and pure sine-waves. Audacity will do square and sawtooth waves and CE
will also generate pink and brown noise and sine waves with user-settable
harmonics so you can simulate harmonic distortion.

Finally, an analyser like RMAA (RightMark Audio Analyser)
http://audio.rightmark.org/index_new.shtml
will do a lot of measurements both automatically and manually. There's a
free version that does a lot, and a modestly charged PRO version that does
that bit more.

S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Edmund[_2_]]

On Mon, 12 May 2008 05:34:19 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Edmund" wrote ...
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements. A few
things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

So go shopping for a sound card that fits your requirements. Don't be
surprised if you don't find any popular-priced products that will have
that range, however. You may be forced to look at industrial lab
equipment if you want waveform generation up in those ranges.

The sound card in my laptop is able to do that.

2 A way of €œmaking€� such sound file from a PCM data text file.

The math for creating sine waves is pretty simple. Most any programming
language (even one-chip microcontrollers) have a "sine" function.

OK that's not a problem, but I need play that sine, so I
expect it has to be in a some standardized format that
a windows player understands. So I must make an 192kHz
sampled wav file?? if that is possible.

3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

Are you sure you want that? You are talking about 230,400,000 sample
values per channel. Do you have the software it takes to analyze (or
even view) a text file that large?

I realize it is quite a lot data but thats not a real problem, I don't
need all that, I need some parts of it. These parts I can easily select.
An alternative would be a 'logging' program that automatically
starts and stops simultaneous with the played or generated sound.
Recording all seems simple.

You also don't mention any bit-depths (8 bit?, 16 bit?, 24 bit?) What
is the application?

That depends what my sound card supports, 16 bit will be good enough.
One thing I like to do is automatically measure the impedance from
a speaker unit.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til a least 45
kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator but this
generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

The only difference between a sine wave at 1KHz and a sine wave at
100KHz is the period. The math is the same

I am talking about the analoge output, measured with an oscilloscope.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz with a PC
/ laptop ?

No difference from the one that will do 9.6 KHz. The difference is in
the hardware, not the software or the data.

Hmm CD's use a sample rate of 44.1 kHz so that will definitely not
produce 96 kHz.

Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

How are you making the files you are using now?

I don't have anything for it now, so far I only used a sound generator.

There are free and inexpensive software applications that will create
various waveforms using your computer sound card. Google can find them
for you in a few milliseconds.

If you get hardware that supports 192KHz, it will almost certainly come
with software that will run it, or at least demonstrate its
capabilities.

Not with my laptop :-)

Edmund

[Edmund[_2_]]

This is a problem in several bits.

Any player should play 192k sampled sounds provided your sound card will
support that rate - this is a matter of drivers, not programmes.

Text is a valid PCM format (look up RIFF headers in Google for the full
list of formats you might find enclosed in a .WAV wrapper). Some systems
are not set up to read text PCM, though.

For creating and recording sounds/signals your best bet is probably an
audio editor. Audacity is a powerful piece of freeware that will do
anything reasonable you need.

For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will always
cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

d

Thank you I will check this things..
Edmund

[Richard Crowley]

"Edmund" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 May 2008 05:34:19 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Edmund" wrote ...
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements. A few
things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

So go shopping for a sound card that fits your requirements. Don't be
surprised if you don't find any popular-priced products that will have
that range, however. You may be forced to look at industrial lab
equipment if you want waveform generation up in those ranges.

The sound card in my laptop is able to do that.

I seriously doubt that ANY laptop sound card ever made was capable
of outputting a 192KHz sine wave. That would imply that runs at at
least 348K. Can you please tell us what kind of remarkable laptop
computer you are using?



2 A way of "making" such sound file from a PCM data text file.

The math for creating sine waves is pretty simple. Most any programming
language (even one-chip microcontrollers) have a "sine" function.

OK that's not a problem, but I need play that sine, so I
expect it has to be in a some standardized format that
a windows player understands. So I must make an 192kHz
sampled wav file?? if that is possible.

It is trivial. Look up the specs for how a WAV file is encoded.
The header information in the file tells what the sample rate and
bit-depth (width) are.



3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

Are you sure you want that? You are talking about 230,400,000 sample
values per channel. Do you have the software it takes to analyze (or
even view) a text file that large?

I realize it is quite a lot data but thats not a real problem, I don't
need all that, I need some parts of it. These parts I can easily select.
An alternative would be a 'logging' program that automatically
starts and stops simultaneous with the played or generated sound.
Recording all seems simple.

You also don't mention any bit-depths (8 bit?, 16 bit?, 24 bit?) What
is the application?

That depends what my sound card supports, 16 bit will be good enough.
One thing I like to do is automatically measure the impedance from
a speaker unit.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til a least 45
kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator but this
generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

The only difference between a sine wave at 1KHz and a sine wave at
100KHz is the period. The math is the same

I am talking about the analoge output, measured with an oscilloscope.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz with a PC
/ laptop ?

No difference from the one that will do 9.6 KHz. The difference is in
the hardware, not the software or the data.

Hmm CD's use a sample rate of 44.1 kHz so that will definitely not
produce 96 kHz.

CDs use a sampling rate of 44.1K so that they are capable of response
up to 20K (generally 1/2 the sample rate is the max frequency).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist...mpling_theorem

Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

How are you making the files you are using now?

I don't have anything for it now, so far I only used a sound generator.

There are free and inexpensive software applications that will create
various waveforms using your computer sound card. Google can find them
for you in a few milliseconds.

If you get hardware that supports 192KHz, it will almost certainly come
with software that will run it, or at least demonstrate its
capabilities.

Not with my laptop :-)

Your laptop sound card hardware will not generate 192KHz unless
there is something extraordinary about it you're not telling us.

[Edmund[_2_]]

On Mon, 12 May 2008 12:06:48 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Edmund" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 May 2008 05:34:19 -0700, Richard Crowley wrote:

"Edmund" wrote ...
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements. A few
things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

So go shopping for a sound card that fits your requirements. Don't be
surprised if you don't find any popular-priced products that will have
that range, however. You may be forced to look at industrial lab
equipment if you want waveform generation up in those ranges.

The sound card in my laptop is able to do that.

I seriously doubt that ANY laptop sound card ever made was capable of
outputting a 192KHz sine wave. That would imply that runs at at least
348K. Can you please tell us what kind of remarkable laptop computer
you are using?

I am not talking about 192kHz sine but a sine sampled at 192 kHz.
Iow something like 90 kHz sine wave out.


Edmund

[Richard Crowley]

"Edmund" wrote ...
I am not talking about 192kHz sine but a sine sampled at 192 kHz.
Iow something like 90 kHz sine wave out.

I'll bet that you sound card won't put out 90KHz either.

[Arny Krueger]

"Edmund" wrote in message


I want to do some testing with a sound card for
measurements.

Been there done that, for over a decade.

A few things I need are :

1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.

Tons of audio editing and playing software can do that, starting out with
Winamp and Audacity.

2 A way of "making" such sound file from a PCM data text

Adobe audition will convert text files of wave data into audio files.

file. 3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20
minutes of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text
data.

Again, Adobe Audition will do that.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up
til a least 45 kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a
sound generator but this generator can not automatic
produce all frequencies I want.

Adobe audition is a good program for synthesizing different complex,
periodic waves.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing
96kHz with a PC / laptop ?

A .wav file.

Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound
file?

Audacity is a good simple starting point. So is Goldwave.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 12 May 2008 08:22:05 GMT, Edmund wrote:

Hi experts,
I want to do some testing with a sound card for measurements.
A few things I need are :
1 Some player which can play 192kHz sampled sounds.
2 A way of “making” such sound file from a PCM data text file.
3 An oscilloscope program which can record about 20 minutes
of 192kHz sampled data and save it as PCM text data.

My sound card can produce a remarkably good sine wave up til
a least 45 kHz ( did not yet test higher yet ) with a sound generator
but this generator can not automatic produce all frequencies I want.

What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz
with a PC / laptop ?
Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

If I understand you correctly, you want to make (not described)
measurements at a couple of octaves above the audio range, a
quite do-able goal.

It seems to be unclear to the rest of us exactly *what*
you're lacking. Please post more.

All the best fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
"I have a gift for enraging people, but if I ever bore you,
it'll be with a knife." -Louise Brooks

[Randy Yates]

Edmund writes:
[...]
What kind sound file format can be used for reproducing 96kHz
with a PC / laptop ?

The standard PCM WAVE file format (RIFF) will do just fine.

Is there any (free?) tool out there to make such a sound file?

Yes. vi (or emacs or xemacs or ...), a library such as sox, and the GNU
C compiler.
--
% Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % ... What is it worth?"
%%% 919-577-9882 % 'Mission (A World Record)',
%%%% % *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Randy Yates]

Don Pearce writes:
[...]
For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will
always cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

It is quite amazing that this is no longer true. GNU Octave (a
completely free open source software application) is pretty close to
Matlab in basic functionality, and even comes with many of the
equivalents to the Signal Processing Toolbox.
--
% Randy Yates % "My Shangri-la has gone away, fading like
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % the Beatles on 'Hey Jude'"
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Shangri-La', *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 12 May 2008 22:52:57 -0400, Randy Yates
wrote:

Don Pearce writes:
[...]
For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will
always cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

It is quite amazing that this is no longer true. GNU Octave (a
completely free open source software application) is pretty close to
Matlab in basic functionality, and even comes with many of the
equivalents to the Signal Processing Toolbox.

I've tried Octave and rejected it pretty quickly (I have Mathcad,
Mathematica, Matlab etc already). It may be powerful but boy, is it
unfriendly to use!

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Randy Yates]

(Don Pearce) writes:

On Mon, 12 May 2008 22:52:57 -0400, Randy Yates
wrote:

Don Pearce writes:
[...]
For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will
always cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

It is quite amazing that this is no longer true. GNU Octave (a
completely free open source software application) is pretty close to
Matlab in basic functionality, and even comes with many of the
equivalents to the Signal Processing Toolbox.

I've tried Octave and rejected it pretty quickly (I have Mathcad,
Mathematica, Matlab etc already). It may be powerful but boy, is it
unfriendly to use!

Huh? If it's unfriendly, then so is Matlab.

Did you mean use or install? It has in the past been a real pig to
install from source. Fortunately, Fedora 8 had the 3.0.0 version in
their repo, so installing it took one line:

yum install octave

yum can be a wonderful thing.

I've been using Matlab for 20 years. I use it from the command line
rather than the Simulink gui. I find Octave to be very much similar
to the Matlab command line interface; almost identical.
--
% Randy Yates % "The dreamer, the unwoken fool -
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % in dreams, no pain will kiss the brow..."
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% % 'Eldorado Overture', *Eldorado*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Don Pearce]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:33:20 -0400, Randy Yates
wrote:

(Don Pearce) writes:

On Mon, 12 May 2008 22:52:57 -0400, Randy Yates
wrote:

Don Pearce writes:
[...]
For serious analysis you need a mathematical tool, and they will
always cost. Matlab is the most versatile one that comes to mind.

It is quite amazing that this is no longer true. GNU Octave (a
completely free open source software application) is pretty close to
Matlab in basic functionality, and even comes with many of the
equivalents to the Signal Processing Toolbox.

I've tried Octave and rejected it pretty quickly (I have Mathcad,
Mathematica, Matlab etc already). It may be powerful but boy, is it
unfriendly to use!

Huh? If it's unfriendly, then so is Matlab.

Did you mean use or install? It has in the past been a real pig to
install from source. Fortunately, Fedora 8 had the 3.0.0 version in
their repo, so installing it took one line:

yum install octave

yum can be a wonderful thing.

I've been using Matlab for 20 years. I use it from the command line
rather than the Simulink gui. I find Octave to be very much similar
to the Matlab command line interface; almost identical.

If you are happy to run from command lines, then of course. But I
don't think that way, which is why my favourite of the bunch is
Mathcad. It is just like doodling on a piece of paper - it works the
way I think.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Mr.T]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Edmund" wrote ...
I am not talking about 192kHz sine but a sine sampled at 192 kHz.
Iow something like 90 kHz sine wave out.

I'll bet that you sound card won't put out 90KHz either.

Why, there are plenty that do.
(admittedly I know of no *inbuilt* laptop cards, but there are external USB
and firewire ones)

MrT.

[Serge Auckland[_2_]]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Edmund" wrote ...
I am not talking about 192kHz sine but a sine sampled at 192 kHz.
Iow something like 90 kHz sine wave out.

I'll bet that you sound card won't put out 90KHz either.

Why, there are plenty that do.
(admittedly I know of no *inbuilt* laptop cards, but there are external
USB
and firewire ones)

MrT.


My current HP laptop will generate a 96kHz sinewave using Cool Edit, albeit
in mono. My previous laptop, an ACER, would do the same, or possibly even in
stereo as I tried some e-e tests, and it handled 192kHz sampling.

Both of these were using the inbuilt sound *card*.

S.

http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Mr.T]

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Why, there are plenty that do.
(admittedly I know of no *inbuilt* laptop cards, but there are external
USB and firewire ones)


My current HP laptop will generate a 96kHz sinewave using Cool Edit,
albeit
in mono. My previous laptop, an ACER, would do the same, or possibly even
in
stereo as I tried some e-e tests, and it handled 192kHz sampling.

Both of these were using the inbuilt sound *card*.

Fair enough, I certainly haven't used that many laptops, that's why I chose
the words "I know of ......"
A further problem though, is most inbuilt laptop sound cards have quite poor
performance (THD, S/N etc), regardless of maximum sample rate. Once again
there may be exceptions. Easy enough to buy an external device in any case.

MrT.

[Serge Auckland[_2_]]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Why, there are plenty that do.
(admittedly I know of no *inbuilt* laptop cards, but there are external
USB and firewire ones)


My current HP laptop will generate a 96kHz sinewave using Cool Edit,
albeit
in mono. My previous laptop, an ACER, would do the same, or possibly even
in
stereo as I tried some e-e tests, and it handled 192kHz sampling.

Both of these were using the inbuilt sound *card*.

Fair enough, I certainly haven't used that many laptops, that's why I
chose
the words "I know of ......"
A further problem though, is most inbuilt laptop sound cards have quite
poor
performance (THD, S/N etc), regardless of maximum sample rate. Once again
there may be exceptions. Easy enough to buy an external device in any
case.

MrT.



The ACER laptop was quite good enough for measurements, although I preferred
to use my Digigram VXPocket card as it has balanced analogue and digital
I/O, albeit with only up to 48k sampling. Unfortunately the screen failed so
I had to buy a new laptop as getting the screen replaced would have cost the
same as a new PC. My new HP laptop's internal audio card is appallingly bad
for both noise and distortion, although the frequency response is from DC to
light (well almost!). It's so bad that I can't use it for audio other than
the occasional Internet radio or other non-critical application.

I've been unimpressed with the external USB audio cards I've tried as few
have balanced I/O, and those that do don't take more than +4dBu for 0dBFS.
The only exception I found was the Lexicon Lambda that would go to +10dBu
for 0dBFS like my VXPocket, but that had such poor distortion and noise
figures that I returned it for refund. I then decided to keep my Digigram
card and reuse the ACER as new laptops don't have PCMCIA slots any more.

I've removed the faulty screen and mounted the ACER laptop into a large
briefcase, with an external screen mounted in the lid, and a large
hard-drive underneath, and kept it purely for audio recoding and editing.

S.
--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Mr.T]

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
The ACER laptop was quite good enough for measurements, although I
preferred
to use my Digigram VXPocket card as it has balanced analogue and digital
I/O, albeit with only up to 48k sampling. Unfortunately the screen failed
so
I had to buy a new laptop as getting the screen replaced would have cost
the
same as a new PC. My new HP laptop's internal audio card is appallingly
bad
for both noise and distortion, although the frequency response is from DC
to
light (well almost!). It's so bad that I can't use it for audio other than
the occasional Internet radio or other non-critical application.

I've been unimpressed with the external USB audio cards I've tried as few
have balanced I/O, and those that do don't take more than +4dBu for 0dBFS.
The only exception I found was the Lexicon Lambda that would go to +10dBu
for 0dBFS like my VXPocket, but that had such poor distortion and noise
figures that I returned it for refund. I then decided to keep my Digigram
card and reuse the ACER as new laptops don't have PCMCIA slots any more.

I've removed the faulty screen and mounted the ACER laptop into a large
briefcase, with an external screen mounted in the lid, and a large
hard-drive underneath, and kept it purely for audio recoding and editing.


Of course a simple 10dB attenuator would have been a lot easier and smaller.
Then there are number of firewire devices with balanced inputs up to 14dBu,
(and even a few USB devices if you look), but whatever works for you.

MrT.