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  #1   Report Post  
Davey V
 
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Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood KDC-X869,
which has "high power." Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category of
speaker? Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and designed
for to run of a hu?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

Regards,
Davey V.


  #2   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood KDC-X869,
which has "high power."


"High power" apparently means ~15 watts per channel, which is what head
units produce.

Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category of
speaker?


It may or may not sound better than stock (depends on how stock sounds I
guess). It probably will sound better.

Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and designed
for to run of a hu?


Yes. Why are you ruling out an amp?


  #3   Report Post  
Davey V
 
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Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Only ruling out an amp for now because I don't have time and funds to do it
the right way. Which separates are you thinking of that would work well in
this application?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood KDC-X869,
which has "high power."


"High power" apparently means ~15 watts per channel, which is what head
units produce.

Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category of
speaker?


It may or may not sound better than stock (depends on how stock sounds I
guess). It probably will sound better.

Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and designed
for to run of a hu?


Yes. Why are you ruling out an amp?




  #4   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Then I suggest you rearrange your priorities. You're talking about a/d/s/
and MB speakers which both cost a lot, but not a $100 amp? A set of
mid-level speakers running off an amplifier will sound better than the best
speakers in the world running off the HU.

--


"Davey V" wrote in message
...
Only ruling out an amp for now because I don't have time and funds to do

it
the right way. Which separates are you thinking of that would work well

in
this application?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood

KDC-X869,
which has "high power."


"High power" apparently means ~15 watts per channel, which is what head
units produce.

Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB

Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category

of
speaker?


It may or may not sound better than stock (depends on how stock sounds I
guess). It probably will sound better.

Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and designed
for to run of a hu?


Yes. Why are you ruling out an amp?






  #5   Report Post  
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

If high sound levels aren't required, that might not be true.
Assuming that each setup won't be pushed to distortion, decent
speakers driven by 15 watts per channel RMS will probably sound better
than so-so speakers driven by 40 watts per channel RMS.

Regards,
Joe


"Mark Zarella" wrote in
:

Then I suggest you rearrange your priorities. You're talking about
a/d/s/ and MB speakers which both cost a lot, but not a $100 amp? A
set of mid-level speakers running off an amplifier will sound better
than the best speakers in the world running off the HU.

--


"Davey V" wrote in message
...
Only ruling out an amp for now because I don't have time and funds
to do

it
the right way. Which separates are you thinking of that would work
well

in
this application?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood

KDC-X869,
which has "high power."

"High power" apparently means ~15 watts per channel, which is
what head units produce.

Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g.
MB

Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this
category

of
speaker?

It may or may not sound better than stock (depends on how stock
sounds I guess). It probably will sound better.

Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and
designed for to run of a hu?

Yes. Why are you ruling out an amp?









  #6   Report Post  
Daniel Snooks
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Joe wrote
If high sound levels aren't required, that might not be true.
Assuming that each setup won't be pushed to distortion, decent
speakers driven by 15 watts per channel RMS will probably sound better
than so-so speakers driven by 40 watts per channel RMS.

Regards,
Joe


It's the midbass that suffers ... the head unit just won't kick up enough
brass to maintain a solid level of sound across the frequency spectrum.
Remember that you will have the head unit up near max volume levels to
acheive 15W. Distortion will be just mad.

--
Regards,
Dan Snooks


  #7   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Ideally, I'd like to put in a set of good speakers and then get to the amp
when I have some time to do it the right way. Are there actually amps

that
you would recommend in the $100 price range?


On ebay there are plenty of nice 2-ch amps between about $90 and $130. Your
plan will certainly work - just don't expect stellar performance prior to
installing the amp. In the meantime, I wouldn't let efficiency be a factor
in your choice of speaker considering your long-term goals.


  #8   Report Post  
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

"Daniel Snooks" wrote in
:

Joe wrote
If high sound levels aren't required, that might not be true.
Assuming that each setup won't be pushed to distortion, decent
speakers driven by 15 watts per channel RMS will probably sound
better than so-so speakers driven by 40 watts per channel RMS.

Regards,
Joe


It's the midbass that suffers ... the head unit just won't kick up
enough brass to maintain a solid level of sound across the frequency
spectrum. Remember that you will have the head unit up near max
volume levels to acheive 15W. Distortion will be just mad.


I think that most aftermarket HUs have enough power to make decent,
efficient good-quality speakers sound good, assuming that high sound
levels aren't necessary. All the power in the world won't make
inferior speakers sound good.

IOW, more power can't make a speaker with poor frequency response
sound good.

Regards,
Joe
  #9   Report Post  
Joe
 
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Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

"Mark Zarella" wrote in
:

If high sound levels aren't required, that might not be true.
Assuming that each setup won't be pushed to distortion, decent
speakers driven by 15 watts per channel RMS will probably sound
better than so-so speakers driven by 40 watts per channel RMS.


I disagree. First of all, it's not "high sound levels" that I'm
talking about. I'm talking about fairly moderate typical listening
levels. Your peaks will require well above 15 watts per channel,
especially for components, and even more especially for most a/d/s/
components (like the OP alluded to). If he plans on driving with
the windows down or the AC/heat on or on the highway, forget about
it!


This is true; I've experienced it personally. But I was under the
impression that we were talking about low-to-moderate listening
levels.

Secondly, there are many cases where STOCK speakers sound better off
a head unit than the most expensive aftermarket speakers. This is
usually because of the increase in sensitivity of some stocks -- a
direct consequence of power's effect on SQ.


It's also in part due to the fact that OEM speakers are "engineered"
to work with the OEM HU (and amp, if applicable). Replacing one part
in an OEM chain won't necessarily result in better sound.

The fallacy that power and SQ are somehow mutually exclusive runs
rampant in this newsgroup!


Mark, my only point is that more power won't make up for the lack of
frequency response in an inferior speaker. In reality, you need both
power and good frequency response for good sound.

Regards,
Joe
  #10   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

I disagree. First of all, it's not "high sound levels" that I'm
talking about. I'm talking about fairly moderate typical listening
levels. Your peaks will require well above 15 watts per channel,
especially for components, and even more especially for most a/d/s/
components (like the OP alluded to). If he plans on driving with
the windows down or the AC/heat on or on the highway, forget about
it!


This is true; I've experienced it personally. But I was under the
impression that we were talking about low-to-moderate listening
levels.


I have been talking about moderate listening levels. For instance, the
sound level required to be able to discern detail in the music above
road/car noise.


Secondly, there are many cases where STOCK speakers sound better off
a head unit than the most expensive aftermarket speakers. This is
usually because of the increase in sensitivity of some stocks -- a
direct consequence of power's effect on SQ.


It's also in part due to the fact that OEM speakers are "engineered"
to work with the OEM HU (and amp, if applicable). Replacing one part
in an OEM chain won't necessarily result in better sound.


Yes, if applicable. But I was also referring to an aftermarket HU. I
didn't make that clear.


The fallacy that power and SQ are somehow mutually exclusive runs
rampant in this newsgroup!


Mark, my only point is that more power won't make up for the lack of
frequency response in an inferior speaker. In reality, you need both
power and good frequency response for good sound.


That's exactly right. 15 watts per channel will not yield flat response
characteristics for a good set of components because it will be unable to
accurately reproduce midbass frequencies and, to a lesser extent, midrange
frequencies.




  #11   Report Post  
Jackson
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?


Davey,

What year BMW 5er? If it's 1997 to current E39 and does NOT have the DSP
option, your factory HU has 4 channels of high quality 4volt pre-amp output.
Go to www.bmwtips.com to find a nice wiring diagram and just tap into the
preamp signals in the trunk. You can also search the archives on the E39
( or other model ) board at http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/.

Once you have that, bypass the factory amp and send you new amp's full power
signals back through the factory wiring to your new speakers. It is all
very easy to do.

If you're Bimmer is older, your on your own. If it has the DSP option,
things get quite a bit more complicated.

I have quite a lot of experience doing this as I've recently done my own E39
as follows:
Factory HU
mb-quart components in front
mb-quart coax in rear
Phoenix Gold Xs6600 amp
large Pro-Wedge sub in trunk.

Good Luck,

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood KDC-X869,
which has "high power." Would my system sound better than stock if I used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category of
speaker? Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and designed
for to run of a hu?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

Regards,
Davey V.




  #12   Report Post  
Eric Desrochers
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Joe wrote:

If high sound levels aren't required, that might not be true.
Assuming that each setup won't be pushed to distortion, decent
speakers driven by 15 watts per channel RMS will probably sound better
than so-so speakers driven by 40 watts per channel RMS.

Regards,
Joe


The new 60 W X 4 "hybrid" Alpine HU will reportedly put out a real 25
watts X 4 so are not too weak in the clean power department. Used with
the internal hi-pass crossover near 80 Hz, high level and great headroom
can be obtained.

I use an Alpine CDA 9815 HU with Alpine 5.25 component front and 6.5
coax rear driven off the HU. I was shocked how much louder and cleaner
this HU is compared to my previous Alpine CDM-7834 (35W X 4). The SPL
will make your ear ring after 10 minutes of loud listening...
particularly AC/DC!

As always, my 0.02
--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95
  #13   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

The new 60 W X 4 "hybrid" Alpine HU will reportedly put out a real 25
watts X 4 so are not too weak in the clean power department. Used with
the internal hi-pass crossover near 80 Hz, high level and great headroom
can be obtained.


Perhaps relatively high level, but certainly not great headroom.


  #14   Report Post  
Davey V
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Kevin-

It's a '95, so everything is straightforward and relatively easy.

Regards,
Davey V.
"Jackson" wrote in message
...

Davey,

What year BMW 5er? If it's 1997 to current E39 and does NOT have the DSP
option, your factory HU has 4 channels of high quality 4volt pre-amp

output.
Go to www.bmwtips.com to find a nice wiring diagram and just tap into the
preamp signals in the trunk. You can also search the archives on the E39
( or other model ) board at http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/.

Once you have that, bypass the factory amp and send you new amp's full

power
signals back through the factory wiring to your new speakers. It is all
very easy to do.

If you're Bimmer is older, your on your own. If it has the DSP option,
things get quite a bit more complicated.

I have quite a lot of experience doing this as I've recently done my own

E39
as follows:
Factory HU
mb-quart components in front
mb-quart coax in rear
Phoenix Gold Xs6600 amp
large Pro-Wedge sub in trunk.

Good Luck,

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood KDC-X869,
which has "high power." Would my system sound better than stock if I

used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category of
speaker? Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and

designed
for to run of a hu?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

Regards,
Davey V.






  #15   Report Post  
Jackson
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?


Good luck. You have a very solidly sealed trunk, so you may end up having
trouble getting any low frequencies ( from a sub ) through to the cabin
unless you have fold down seats, the ski hatch, or some other large,
free-air opening between.

I've been putting off cutting anything in mine, as I have none of the above,
but will end up doing it eventually.

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
Kevin-

It's a '95, so everything is straightforward and relatively easy.

Regards,
Davey V.
"Jackson" wrote in message
...

Davey,

What year BMW 5er? If it's 1997 to current E39 and does NOT have the

DSP
option, your factory HU has 4 channels of high quality 4volt pre-amp

output.
Go to www.bmwtips.com to find a nice wiring diagram and just tap into

the
preamp signals in the trunk. You can also search the archives on the

E39
( or other model ) board at http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/.

Once you have that, bypass the factory amp and send you new amp's full

power
signals back through the factory wiring to your new speakers. It is all
very easy to do.

If you're Bimmer is older, your on your own. If it has the DSP option,
things get quite a bit more complicated.

I have quite a lot of experience doing this as I've recently done my own

E39
as follows:
Factory HU
mb-quart components in front
mb-quart coax in rear
Phoenix Gold Xs6600 amp
large Pro-Wedge sub in trunk.

Good Luck,

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood

KDC-X869,
which has "high power." Would my system sound better than stock if I

used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB

Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this category

of
speaker? Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and

designed
for to run of a hu?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

Regards,
Davey V.










  #16   Report Post  
Davey V
 
Posts: n/a
Default "High Power" Head Unit to Power Separates?

Eventually I'd be willing to cut out the ski sack port. For now I'm just
concentrating on the front stage.

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
How about just taking the rear speakers out? There's two holes.

--


"Jackson" wrote in message
...

Good luck. You have a very solidly sealed trunk, so you may end up

having
trouble getting any low frequencies ( from a sub ) through to the cabin
unless you have fold down seats, the ski hatch, or some other large,
free-air opening between.

I've been putting off cutting anything in mine, as I have none of the

above,
but will end up doing it eventually.

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
Kevin-

It's a '95, so everything is straightforward and relatively easy.

Regards,
Davey V.
"Jackson" wrote in message
...

Davey,

What year BMW 5er? If it's 1997 to current E39 and does NOT have

the
DSP
option, your factory HU has 4 channels of high quality 4volt pre-amp
output.
Go to www.bmwtips.com to find a nice wiring diagram and just tap

into
the
preamp signals in the trunk. You can also search the archives on

the
E39
( or other model ) board at

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e39/.

Once you have that, bypass the factory amp and send you new amp's

full
power
signals back through the factory wiring to your new speakers. It is

all
very easy to do.

If you're Bimmer is older, your on your own. If it has the DSP

option,
things get quite a bit more complicated.

I have quite a lot of experience doing this as I've recently done my

own
E39
as follows:
Factory HU
mb-quart components in front
mb-quart coax in rear
Phoenix Gold Xs6600 amp
large Pro-Wedge sub in trunk.

Good Luck,

-Kevin

"Davey V" wrote in message
...
I'm upgrading my BMW ('5 540i) factory head unit to a Kenwood

KDC-X869,
which has "high power." Would my system sound better than stock

if
I
used
the new head unit's amp and some high quality separates (e.g. MB

Quart,
a/d/s, etc.) or is the internal amp inadequate to power this

category
of
speaker? Are there separates that are particularly effiicient and
designed
for to run of a hu?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

Regards,
Davey V.












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