Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item from
someone?

Thanks,
Colin

I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently replace my Yamaha
CD changer with a Denon unit that has an onboard Burr-Brown DAC and the
difference in sound quality (frequency response and audible distortion) is
startling to say the least. To say that they have all reached perfection is
incorrect. I have also heard that DVD players seldom sound near as good as
a quality CD player. You probably should audition many of them back to back
and hear for yourself.

DaveL


"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic
or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item
from
someone?

Thanks,
Colin

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which
are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential
perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my
ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to
see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player
(matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand
item from
someone?

Thanks,
Colin

For middle of road - better than cr*p and not esoteric - look at
Marantz, Denon, or NAD. Marantz may be a touch mre pricey, especially
the SE versions, but they are good.


--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic
or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item
from
someone?

I have never copme across a carusel 'changer' type player that works
reliably with a wide sample of CD-Rs.

This presumably implies that they are more prone to read errors, potentially
affecting sound quality, even if not failing on a disc.

geoff

Geoff@home wrote:

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic
or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item
from
someone?

I have never copme across a carusel 'changer' type player that works
reliably with a wide sample of CD-Rs.

This presumably implies that they are more prone to read errors, potentially
affecting sound quality, even if not failing on a disc.

Interesting. However, my Denon carousel changer has never failed to play
anything, including borderline CD-RWs.

DaveL wrote:
I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently replace my
Yamaha CD changer with a Denon unit that has an onboard Burr-Brown DAC
and the difference in sound quality (frequency response and audible
distortion) is startling to say the least. To say that they have all
reached perfection is incorrect. I have also heard that DVD players
seldom sound near as good as a quality CD player. You probably should
audition many of them back to back and hear for yourself.

DaveL


"Colin B." wrote in message
...

Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player
(matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand
item from
someone?

Thanks,
Colin


Is it the Burr Brown DAC that made things better, or just the newer,
better technilogy? The reason I ask is because I bought a Panasonic DVD
player which retired my Denon CD changer with Burr Brown DAC. The Denon
DCM-270 is an older model which has no up-sampling so I think that may
have been the factor in why the Panasonic always sounded better than it.

CD

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
I have never copme across a carusel 'changer' type player that works
reliably with a wide sample of CD-Rs.

This presumably implies that they are more prone to read errors,
potentially
affecting sound quality, even if not failing on a disc.

Interesting. However, my Denon carousel changer has never failed to play
anything, including borderline CD-RWs.

Nor has my old Yamaha, but I will admit it's a bit of a lottery with some
players.

MrT.

"Codifus" wrote in message
...
DaveL wrote:
I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently replace my
Yamaha CD changer with a Denon unit that has an onboard Burr-Brown DAC
and the difference in sound quality (frequency response and audible
distortion) is startling to say the least. To say that they have all
reached perfection is incorrect. I have also heard that DVD players
seldom sound near as good as a quality CD player. You probably should
audition many of them back to back and hear for yourself.

DaveL


Is it the Burr Brown DAC that made things better, or just the newer,
better technilogy? The reason I ask is because I bought a Panasonic DVD
player which retired my Denon CD changer with Burr Brown DAC. The Denon
DCM-270 is an older model which has no up-sampling so I think that may
have been the factor in why the Panasonic always sounded better than it.

CD

Well, from what I have read on the internet it is the Burr-Brown DAC that is
responsible from the superior sound quality. The model I have is the
DCM-370. It's not perfect by any means but it does sound awesome. My
engineer brother-in-law also recommended a Burr-Brown DAC. Some high
quality separate DACs also use the same chip.

DaveL

I did audition a real CD player and a pioneer DVD player but I can't hear
much difference. Well it sounds different but not enough to justify spending
200 dollars more on...

I was under the impression that if you buy a 1000 dollar CD player it
wouldn't sound that much different from a cheap DVD player anyways... more
like 10% or less. But real audiophiles might have something different to
say.

--
TAI FU
http://creationism.dyndns.org/

"harrogate2" wrote in message
...

"Colin B." wrote in message
...
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which
are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential
perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my
ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to
see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only
modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player
(matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand
item from
someone?

Thanks,
Colin

For middle of road - better than cr*p and not esoteric - look at
Marantz, Denon, or NAD. Marantz may be a touch mre pricey, especially
the SE versions, but they are good.


--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com



Denon late model optical players are some of the least reliable ever made
and they don't support them worth a damn. NAD is average at best, Marantz is
Philips-built. Stay away.

For mass market stuff go with Pioneer number 1, Sony 2.

Mark Z.

"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message


I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently
replace my Yamaha CD changer with a Denon unit that has
an onboard Burr-Brown DAC and the difference in sound
quality (frequency response and audible distortion) is
startling to say the least.


Let's recap. Dave had a Yamaha in unknown operating
condition. It could have poor tracking and dried out caps,
as well as many other technical faults. He might never know
it until he buys a new player that will likely track well
and be in pretty good operating condition.

Ever hear of the parable of the boiled frog?

http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/boiled.html

There's also the slight matter of excitement and feelings of
optimism that can arise when one buys something new. Not a
problem, it can actually be a pretty neat experience, but
that loud slam you just heard is objectivity running out the
door.

Dave then attributes all of his favorable perceptions to the
manufacturer of the DAC chips in the new player.

Are there any people who can sucessfully do critical
thinking in the house? ;-)

To say that they have all reached perfection is
incorrect.

Needless to say, Dave is basing this conclusion on
who-knows-what. Really, there are so many extraneous
influences that its hard to count them.

I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.

Dave re-pledges his allegance to his new overpriced,
obsolete-when-built, CD player.

You probably should audition many of them back
to back and hear for yourself.

Been there, done that.

If you match levels, time-synch the discs, and manage
listener bias (which almost nobody ever does), then a ton of
them starting at about $39.95 are sonically
indistinguishable.

I was messing around the other day with my home stereo, and decided to
play a cd through the DVD player, using the fiber optic digital audio
hookup. I thought it sounded better than the cd player, but then again
my cd player is 15 years old, so it might not have been a fair
comparison.


I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.

Brian wrote:
I was messing around the other day with my home stereo, and decided to
play a cd through the DVD player, using the fiber optic digital audio
hookup. I thought it sounded better than the cd player, but then again
my cd player is 15 years old, so it might not have been a fair
comparison.



I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.


I had the same experience.
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a previous
post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a
DVD player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound
quality when I bought it. After several months of use I casually started
to notice that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some comparison,
no doubt the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's litmus test,
but it was good enough for me, and I found that the Panasonic DVD player
blew away my Burr Brown Denon CD player, without even trying.

I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and I'm
pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.


CD

Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound quality
on the DCM-370.


"Codifus" wrote in message
...
I had the same experience.
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a previous
post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a DVD
player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound quality
when I bought it. After several months of use I casually started to notice
that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some comparison, no doubt
the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's litmus test, but it was
good enough for me, and I found that the Panasonic DVD player blew away my
Burr Brown Denon CD player, without even trying.

Blew it away in what way?


I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and I'm
pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.


CD

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
news:zB2af.11880
Denon late model optical players are some of the least reliable ever made
and they don't support them worth a damn. NAD is average at best, Marantz
is Philips-built. Stay away.

For mass market stuff go with Pioneer number 1, Sony 2.

Mark Z.


I'll agree about the Denon. If mine did not sound so good I would not have
it. The thing uses leaf switch for carousel sensors and does not use them
in good ways either. My unit had problems out of the box but I fix it by
cleaning all the leaf switches. No doubt this is the source of the
reliability issues.

DaveL

DaveL wrote:
Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.


"Codifus" wrote in message
...

I had the same experience.
I have a Denon DCM-370 CD changer with the Burr Brown DAC. In a
previous post in this thread I mistakenly thought I had the 270, but
it is the 370.
Anyhow, I bought a Panasonic DVD player, the S-35. All I wanted was a
DVD player that played MP3 discs. I was not even concerned about sound
quality when I bought it. After several months of use I casually
started to notice that the Panasonic sounded really good. I did some
comparison, no doubt the tests I conducted woudn't pass Arny Krueger's
litmus test, but it was good enough for me, and I found that the
Panasonic DVD player blew away my Burr Brown Denon CD player, without
even trying.


Blew it away in what way?


I attribute this to the fact that the Panasonic uses upsampling and
I'm pretty sure that the Denon 370 does not.


CD


What's the headphone mod?

The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a
newer Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the playing
field. This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370 is an old
unit compared to the newish Panasonic.

CD

Wow, Arny. That's quite a diatribe you have there.

I only paid $75 shipped for the Denon. I was not expecting miracles but did
really get one. The Yamaha did suck badly and always did. I never liked
its sound but put up with it because it was convenient. The thing always
sounded digital and induced listener fatigue especially during complex
passages like crescendos and such. Also the bass was boomy. I always
thought I had a nasty resonance in my room but no, it was the Yamaha. It
donned on me when I realized my tuner did not have the same resonance.
After swapping the players I had to re-adjust the EQ. Now I only have two
octaves that need to be adjusted. Before nearly all were.

Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh? Does it sound different
than the same album on vinyl? Does it sound ok when the music is at a quiet
passage but gets confused sounding during the climax?

Arny, poor tracking? They either track or they skip. Tracking has nothing
to do with sound quality. Dried caps? Oh sure dried caps are the root of
all that is evil Seriously, unless the caps are of a faulty design they
won't begin to dry out for at least 20 years.

DaveL


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message


I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently
replace my Yamaha CD changer with a Denon unit that has
an onboard Burr-Brown DAC and the difference in sound
quality (frequency response and audible distortion) is
startling to say the least.


Let's recap. Dave had a Yamaha in unknown operating condition. It could
have poor tracking and dried out caps, as well as many other technical
faults. He might never know it until he buys a new player that will likely
track well and be in pretty good operating condition.

Ever hear of the parable of the boiled frog?

http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/boiled.html

There's also the slight matter of excitement and feelings of optimism that
can arise when one buys something new. Not a problem, it can actually be
a pretty neat experience, but that loud slam you just heard is objectivity
running out the door.

Dave then attributes all of his favorable perceptions to the manufacturer
of the DAC chips in the new player.

Are there any people who can sucessfully do critical thinking in the
house? ;-)

To say that they have all reached perfection is incorrect.

Needless to say, Dave is basing this conclusion on who-knows-what. Really,
there are so many extraneous influences that its hard to count them.

I have also heard that
DVD players seldom sound near as good as a quality CD
player.

Dave re-pledges his allegance to his new overpriced, obsolete-when-built,
CD player.

You probably should audition many of them back
to back and hear for yourself.

Been there, done that.

If you match levels, time-synch the discs, and manage listener bias (which
almost nobody ever does), then a ton of them starting at about $39.95 are
sonically indistinguishable.

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb. There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.

DaveL

"Codifus" wrote in message
news
DaveL wrote:
Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.

What's the headphone mod?

The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a newer
Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the playing field.
This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370 is an old unit
compared to the newish Panasonic.

CD

DaveL wrote:
Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb. There is a three wire cable that
connects from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right
corner. You simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it
eliminates the distortion.

DaveL

"Codifus" wrote in message
news
DaveL wrote:

Did you do the headphone mod? It's supposed to increase the sound
quality on the DCM-370.

What's the headphone mod?

The Panasonic was just much more pleasant to listen to. I imagine a
newer Denon with BurrBrown DAC and upsampling would leveled the
playing field. This is a somewhat un-fair comparison because the 370
is an old unit compared to the newish Panasonic.

CD


Maybe thats why I like my Panasonic better! I'm going to fiddle with
that headphone connection and see what happens.

CD

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:23:18 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

I don't know if I qualify as a techie but I did recently replace my Yamaha
CD changer with a Denon unit that has an onboard Burr-Brown DAC and the
difference in sound quality (frequency response and audible distortion) is
startling to say the least. To say that they have all reached perfection is
incorrect. I have also heard that DVD players seldom sound near as good as
a quality CD player. You probably should audition many of them back to back
and hear for yourself.

There is nothing so convincing as pride of ownership! :-)

The reality is that any mainstream CD player built in the last fifteen
years has utterly inaudible distortion, and a ruler-flat frequency
response - whatever the clowns in the ragazines may say to justify
their existence. My own 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer DV-575A universal
player sounds identical to a genuinely state of the art Meridian 588.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:57:00 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Well, from what I have read on the internet it is the Burr-Brown DAC that is
responsible from the superior sound quality. The model I have is the
DCM-370. It's not perfect by any means but it does sound awesome. My
engineer brother-in-law also recommended a Burr-Brown DAC. Some high
quality separate DACs also use the same chip.

Absolute hooey, audibly identical results can be obtained from
Crystal, AD or Wolfson chips. Burr-Brown *was* the 'Rolls-Royce'
converter brand in the '70s and '80s, but technology has moved ahead,
and 24/192 DACs are now commodity items.

Your 'engineer' brother in law is badly out of touch with current
technology.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:38:57 GMT, "Colin B."
wrote:

Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

Audio Note, YBA 'blue laser', and probably several other so-called
'high end' players which are sufficiently badly designed as to have
audible differences.

Otherwise, apart *possibly* from some of the really cheap ones where
everything has been cut to the bone, no.

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item from
someone?

It's always a good idea to borrow something genuinely state of the
art, such as a current Meridian, just to prove the point.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message


Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh?

Whenever it's playing a CD that sounds harsh.

Does it sound different than the same album on vinyl?

If a CD player doesn't sound different from vinyl as a rule,
that would be grounds for throwing it away. I had well over
1000 albums when I bought my CD player. Within a year I was
so sick of the poorer sound quality of the LPs that I
started selling them off in volume.

It's almost a sure thing that any CD was mastered
differently from the corresponding LP. Therefore its
unlikely that they would sound alike on equally accurate
players.

Does it
sound ok when the music is at a quiet passage but gets
confused sounding during the climax?

It does this whenever its playing a CD that is recorded that
way.

Arny, poor tracking? They either track or they skip.

Wrong, in a way. Not all skips are audible as tics and pops.
Some of them are treated with a process called "error
concealment". There's no standard for how "error
concealment" is done, and it can have varying effects on the
music.

Tracking has nothing to do with sound quality.

A machine with subtle bad tracking can definately have
something to do with sound quality.

Dried caps? Oh sure dried caps are the root of all that
is
evil Seriously, unless the caps are of a faulty
design they won't begin to dry out for at least 20 years.

It's true that electrolytic caps should live for at least 20
years, but nothing is perfect. I've got a Sony with such
dried out caps on the output that the bass rolls off rapidly
below about 100 Hz.

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.

Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......

Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:25:52 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

snip numerous lines of bull****

Ask yourself. Does your cd player sound harsh? Does it sound different
than the same album on vinyl?

I'd be bloody horrified if it didn't !!

Does it sound ok when the music is at a quiet
passage but gets confused sounding during the climax?

Nope.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake
wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced
into the entire playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

Good question. Seems very unlikely.

Guy was probably doing a sighted evaluation.

OTOH, there might be something to it:

Here's more details:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/226.html

"To improve the sound of a Denon DCM-370, just unplug the
three conductor cable running from the main circuit card to
the little circuit card by the headphone jack. Some sort of
ESD or overvoltage protection components for the headphone
jack cause distortion even at the rear panel output of this
CD player. Of course this mod disables the headphone jack,
but this is easily reversible.

"Of course, it seems possible to change or remove the
headphone protection components, but this would be more
difficult and perhaps would cause reliablilty problems. I'm
not sure what their purpose is.

"If you want to get a quick idea of the sonic effect, use
the Denon remote and set the output level down to -6. Then
turn up the gain in the amplifier to get the same loudness.
Removing the cable as described above is even more
effective.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.

Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......

Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!

There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.

geoff

"Colin B." wrote:

Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which
are audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection
a few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my
ancient (i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening
first, to see how important it is in the grand scheme of things.
However, the only modern CD player I have available is a no-name DVD
player (matsumagna****asonic or some such thing). Can I count on
something this cheap to be audibly nonexistent, or am I going to have
to borrow at least a name-brand item from someone?

Thanks,
Colin

Give the newer ones from NAD a listen.

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:00:54 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake
wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced
into the entire playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

Good question. Seems very unlikely.

Guy was probably doing a sighted evaluation.

OTOH, there might be something to it:

Here's more details:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/226.html

"To improve the sound of a Denon DCM-370, just unplug the
three conductor cable running from the main circuit card to
the little circuit card by the headphone jack. Some sort of
ESD or overvoltage protection components for the headphone
jack cause distortion even at the rear panel output of this
CD player. Of course this mod disables the headphone jack,
but this is easily reversible.

"Of course, it seems possible to change or remove the
headphone protection components, but this would be more
difficult and perhaps would cause reliablilty problems. I'm
not sure what their purpose is.

"If you want to get a quick idea of the sonic effect, use
the Denon remote and set the output level down to -6. Then
turn up the gain in the amplifier to get the same loudness.
Removing the cable as described above is even more
effective.

Fair enough. It is indeed a truism that there is no technology which
cannot be badly implemented! :-(
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:42:28 +1300, "Geoff@home"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.

Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......

Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!

There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.

Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication that there is
something fundamentally incompetent in this device. One does of course
wonder if the OP actually heard anything, or simply discovered the
same URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Some guy figured out that distortion was being induced into the entire
playback from the headphone pcb.

Did his astrologer tell him that?

There is a three wire cable that connects
from the headphone pcb to the main board at the back right corner. You
simply disconnect the cable at the main board and it eliminates the
distortion.

Wow! Imagine the distortion that a five-wire cable might cause......

Puhhhhllleeeeeeeese!

There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the headphone sub-board. I
would guess it is degrading an inadequate power supply branch.

Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication that there is
something fundamentally incompetent in this device. One does of course
wonder if the OP actually heard anything, or simply discovered the
same URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I did not do a before
and after test but I can tell you that this unit sounds really good and far
better than my Yamaha unit. If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand. How many
audiophiles are spending thousands on high end cd players and separate dacs?
I guess they are all wasting their money when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same sound. If you believe
that all cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response and virtually
no distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.

DaveL

Colin B. wrote:
Quick question for the techies out there.

Are there any currently available CD or DVD players out there which are
audibly flawed?

From all I've heard, CD players seem to have hit essential perfection a
few years ago. I've been considering getting a replacement for my ancient
(i.e. ~16 years old) player, but want to do some listening first, to see
how important it is in the grand scheme of things. However, the only modern
CD player I have available is a no-name DVD player (matsumagna****asonic or
some such thing). Can I count on something this cheap to be audibly
nonexistent, or am I going to have to borrow at least a name-brand item from
someone?

Might as follow up my own posting.

Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of Kind of Blue, and
compared it very informally to my Denon DCM-340. First thing I noticed is
that (since I didn't have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing, the DVD player was
louder. After a while, I started to think that it was _only_ in the high
end - the bass didn't seem to be any different at all.

More listening, both through the headphones and speakers, and I definitely
got the impression that the high frequencies were a bit more prominent in
the DVD player. Spent a few hours going back and forth, reading, eating,
trying to guess (and not remember) which player it was on, and getting it
right about 90% of the time. Curiously, every time I noticed something that
sounded like it might be 'wrong,' it turned out to be on the old Denon.

Better? I think so. Significantly? Nope. If there's any difference, it's
about an order of magnitude less than between the Denon and my friend's
similarly-aged pioneer.

I'd like to do some proper testing of it at some point, but that's going to
be a bit tough without some serious equipment and a patient cohort.

Colin

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:30:10 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake wrote:

Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I did not do a before
and after test but I can tell you that this unit sounds really good and far
better than my Yamaha unit. If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.

It's not a 'belief', it's a *fact* that I'm happy to demonstrate to
anyone who cares to bring along their idea of a SOTA player.

http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/stewart_p/stewart_p.html

How many
audiophiles are spending thousands on high end cd players and separate dacs?
I guess they are all wasting their money when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same sound. If you believe
that all cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response and virtually
no distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.

If you believe that in 2005 they don't, then your ignorance is truly
appalling.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in
message
...

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake
wrote:

There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the
headphone sub-board. I would guess it is degrading an
inadequate power supply branch.

Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication
that there is something fundamentally incompetent in
this device. One does of course wonder if the OP
actually heard anything, or simply discovered the same
URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things. --

Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I
did not do a before and after test but I can tell you
that this unit sounds really good and far better than my
Yamaha unit.

Dave, if you don't compare these units level-matched,
time-synched, and bias-controlled they are going to sound
different and its very likely that given the rampant
hysteria about good sound among inexperienced audiophiles,
you'll think that one sounds better than the other.

But, don't you think that favoring the sound of one player
over another when one is louder than the other is kinda
trivial?

If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.

"Head in the sand" is a good phrase to use to describe
audiophiles who don't take the time and effort to compare
players properly.

How many audiophiles are spending thousands on high end
cd players and separate dacs?

Not that many, any more. Probably not that many even in the
heyday of high end players and DACs. But, just because there
are people with more money than brains doesn't mean that we
should all emulate them.

I guess they are all wasting their money

For many people, audio is about conspicious consumption. I
happen to live in a community where conspicious consumption
tends more towards 55' boats and $million dollar houses.
Audio tends to take a back seat, but across town where the
lakes are a so small that 55' boats don't make a lot of
sense...


when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same
sound.

You got to watch the *really* cheap stuff, but someplace
around $100 optical players get interesting.

If you believe that all cd players have a
perfectly flat frequency response and virtually no
distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.

So Dave, tell us about all the measurements of DACs and CD
players that you've done.

Here are some of mine:

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/summary/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/adc-dac/summary/index.htm

Now, what is it that you want to tell me about DAC and
optical player sound quality, Dave?

"Colin B." wrote in
message

Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of
Kind of Blue, and compared it very informally to my Denon
DCM-340. First thing I noticed is that (since I didn't
have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing,
the DVD player was louder.

You know this is really sad. You may be bright enough that
you seem to realize that your listening test might not be
worth squat unless you adjusted the levels of the two
players within 0.1 dB.

You say you have the means to match levels, which I might
doubt but I'll take what you say at face value.

Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and fundamentally
flawed.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Colin B." wrote in
message

snip



Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling dissertation about
what you thought you heard, when your listening test is obviously,
grotesquely and fundamentally flawed.

Not given to overstatement, are you Arny?

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Colin B." wrote in
message

snip



Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and
fundamentally flawed.

Not given to overstatement, are you Arny?

Harry, you're just miffed because you're obviously very
light on personal, hands-on experience with proper audio
evaluation techniques. Indeed like Mirabel, you've made a
Usenet career of defending flawed techniques and criticizing
good ones.

Hi Arny,

All I know is what my ears tell me. But your measurements prove my point.
None of the analog output specs are the same. They all vary. This means
the all sound a little bit different. The difference may be slight but it
is still there. It could be like Stewart says that the newer players have
less variance. I can accept that. But please believe me that my Denon does
sound better than my Yamaha. This is no lie or misjudgment.

DaveL


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in
message
...

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:41:47 -0800, "DaveL" AKA Snake
wrote:

There is electronics (presumably flawed) on the
headphone sub-board. I would guess it is degrading an
inadequate power supply branch.

Possibly. There certainly seems to be some indication
that there is something fundamentally incompetent in
this device. One does of course wonder if the OP
actually heard anything, or simply discovered the same
URL that Arny did, and *then* began to 'hear' things. --

Actually I did hear of the mod from several sources. I
did not do a before and after test but I can tell you
that this unit sounds really good and far better than my
Yamaha unit.

Dave, if you don't compare these units level-matched, time-synched, and
bias-controlled they are going to sound different and its very likely that
given the rampant hysteria about good sound among inexperienced
audiophiles, you'll think that one sounds better than the other.

But, don't you think that favoring the sound of one player over another
when one is louder than the other is kinda trivial?

If you believe that they all sound the same
then go ahead and keep your head (or ears) in the sand.

"Head in the sand" is a good phrase to use to describe audiophiles who
don't take the time and effort to compare players properly.

How many audiophiles are spending thousands on high end
cd players and separate dacs?

Not that many, any more. Probably not that many even in the heyday of high
end players and DACs. But, just because there are people with more money
than brains doesn't mean that we should all emulate them.

I guess they are all wasting their money

For many people, audio is about conspicious consumption. I happen to live
in a community where conspicious consumption tends more towards 55' boats
and $million dollar houses. Audio tends to take a back seat, but across
town where the lakes are a so small that 55' boats don't make a lot of
sense...


when they could have done like you
and bought the cheapest no name unit and had the same
sound.

You got to watch the *really* cheap stuff, but someplace around $100
optical players get interesting.

If you believe that all cd players have a
perfectly flat frequency response and virtually no
distortion then you are simply ignorant to the truth.

So Dave, tell us about all the measurements of DACs and CD players that
you've done.

Here are some of mine:

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/summary/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/adc-dac/summary/index.htm

Now, what is it that you want to tell me about DAC and optical player
sound quality, Dave?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Colin B." wrote in
message

Plugged the DVD player into the preamp, burned a copy of
Kind of Blue, and compared it very informally to my Denon
DCM-340. First thing I noticed is that (since I didn't
have any way of adjusting levels, although I could have
measured them) when there were drums or trumpet playing,
the DVD player was louder.

You know this is really sad. You may be bright enough that
you seem to realize that your listening test might not be
worth squat unless you adjusted the levels of the two
players within 0.1 dB.

Arny, I have defended DBT to the n'th degree. I've agreed ad nauseum on the
criticality of proper testing and the existence of listener bias. Thus,
please allow me to offer the following advice.

**** OFF! Take a valium. Take two! Wipe the spittle off your chin, and then
come back and reread my post.

Nowhere did I mention the word "test" in my post, except at the end. This
was an evening of playing. This was entertainment. This was interest. This
was at the VERY most, a way of deciding for myself if I should pursue real
testing methodology.

You say you have the means to match levels, which I might
doubt but I'll take what you say at face value.

You misread. I said that I do NOT have the means to match levels--only to
measure them. A test-tone CD and an oscilloscope (or even a good DVM, for
that matter) should accomplish that quite nicely. Matching them is another
matter altogether of course, and neither player has an output level
adjustment.

Nevertheless you just launched into a long rambling
dissertation about what you thought you heard, when your
listening test is obviously, grotesquely and fundamentally
flawed.

Well yes, that was sort of the point. Again I'll point out that this wasn't
a test. You may have noticed (although apparently not) the use of phrases
such as "got the impression," "started to think," and "I think so."
If you had read, you may have also noticed that I finished with "I'd like
to do some proper testing of it at some point..."

Let me explain in simple words: If I could not find any reliable difference
in a situation that uncontrolled, then there's little or no point in doing a
tightly controlled level-matched DBT. On the other hand, if I BELIEVE (note
the use of a word that indicates opinion in the absence of fact) that I
could detect a difference, then on to the proper methodology to see if it's
a level-matching problem, a perceptional error (i.e. bias towards one player
in a sighted evaluation), or an actual difference in response between the
players. The third is the least likely, although given the age of my Denon,
at least possible.

Furthermore, my OPINIONS (note again, the use of one of "those" words) from
playing around are something that can quite easily be tested, and may in
fact get done. It seemed like the high-frequency was different between the
two players. Well I can either to a formal DBT as mentioned above, or measure
the frequency response of the players. Come to think of it, that might be
a relatively easy test to manage. I've got test CDs with 20Hz-20kHz sweep
tracks on them, at different levels. Run the players into the computer,
record the tracks, and (after digitally adjusting the levels) subtract them.
Any problems with that?

And finally, in the future it would do you well to make an _attempt_
to understand what people are saying before getting up in arms.

Colin

"DaveL" AKA Snake wrote in message


All I know is what my ears tell me.

Unless you're careful, your ears tell you that different
music played at significantly different loudnesses sounds
different. Kinda trivial eh?

But your measurements prove my point.

No they don't.

None of the analog output specs are the same.

So what? As long as the variations are in the range that
nobody can hear, its all moot.

They all vary.

So what? The precision with which we can measure variations
in audio gear is so great that its getting a little
ludicrous.

This means the all sound a little bit different.

Not at all. Just because something measures different
doesn't mean that it sounds different.

For example, frequency response curves that are within 0.2
dB 20-20 KHz can't be audibly distinguished. At the
frequency extremes, far greater variations can't be heard.

Please see:

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/FR/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/THD/index.htm

http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/IM/index.htm

For information about the limits of audibility of
performance specs.

For another example, no form of distortion that is below
0.01 % (-80 dB) can be heard. In most cases that can be
raised to 0.03% or more.

The difference may be slight but it is still there.

So what?