Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:

BOB URZ wrote:

Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.


--
After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the "SWEN" worm, I have
concluded we must conceal our e-mail address. Our true address is the
mirror image of what you see before the "@" symbol. It's a shame such
steps are necessary. ...Charlie

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.


--
After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the "SWEN" worm, I have
concluded we must conceal our e-mail address. Our true address is the
mirror image of what you see before the "@" symbol. It's a shame such
steps are necessary. ...Charlie

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.


--
After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the "SWEN" worm, I have
concluded we must conceal our e-mail address. Our true address is the
mirror image of what you see before the "@" symbol. It's a shame such
steps are necessary. ...Charlie

CJT wrote:

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

--


Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

CJT wrote:

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

--


Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

CJT wrote:

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article et,
Randy Yates wrote:


BOB URZ wrote:


Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978

Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting this reference. I am on-board 200 percent with
their views. What can be done?


The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use. Design
processor units, RAM banks, and I/O adaptors that connect with a single
multi-wire cable.

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

--


Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"BOB URZ" wrote...
Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

http://www.usfirst.org/jrobtcs/flego.htm

Shot video for a tournament last weekend where there were
~400 enthusiastic kids (ages~10-14). Some pretty good
problem solving thinking and good designs. They had to
give presentations and technical "interviews" in addition
to constructing and programming their robots to accomplish
pre-determined tasks.

No, they're not diddling with individual resistors and capacitors
like we do. Their "components" are at a higher level of integration
(and, frankly, a lot more "whizzy" than anything we built at their
age!)

10s of thousands of participants in scores of countries. It seems
certain that at least a good fraction of them will end up in some
sort of high-tech engineering or similar field.

There are likely other similar programs around. Many (most?)
are looking for mentors/coaches/judges and would welcome the
kind of people that frequent these newsgroups.

"BOB URZ" wrote...
Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

http://www.usfirst.org/jrobtcs/flego.htm

Shot video for a tournament last weekend where there were
~400 enthusiastic kids (ages~10-14). Some pretty good
problem solving thinking and good designs. They had to
give presentations and technical "interviews" in addition
to constructing and programming their robots to accomplish
pre-determined tasks.

No, they're not diddling with individual resistors and capacitors
like we do. Their "components" are at a higher level of integration
(and, frankly, a lot more "whizzy" than anything we built at their
age!)

10s of thousands of participants in scores of countries. It seems
certain that at least a good fraction of them will end up in some
sort of high-tech engineering or similar field.

There are likely other similar programs around. Many (most?)
are looking for mentors/coaches/judges and would welcome the
kind of people that frequent these newsgroups.

"BOB URZ" wrote...
Gezz guys, i think your all missing the point.
No one is suggesting that Radio Shack sell build your own
robot with artificially intelligence kit. This is just basic learning
electronics stuff. Not everything needs to have a 32 bit processor
or DSP chip.

Personally, i started building knight kits and built my own S100
computer. I thought i was an invaluable experience that later led
to an engineering degree. You have to make a LED flash before
you can build Frankenstein.

This keeps up, our kids are going to have all these marvellous toys
that are thrown away when they break. Why? Know one has a clue
how they work.

What the world needs is a Nintendo or Lego version of an electronic
kit. Something to get kids interested.

http://www.usfirst.org/jrobtcs/flego.htm

Shot video for a tournament last weekend where there were
~400 enthusiastic kids (ages~10-14). Some pretty good
problem solving thinking and good designs. They had to
give presentations and technical "interviews" in addition
to constructing and programming their robots to accomplish
pre-determined tasks.

No, they're not diddling with individual resistors and capacitors
like we do. Their "components" are at a higher level of integration
(and, frankly, a lot more "whizzy" than anything we built at their
age!)

10s of thousands of participants in scores of countries. It seems
certain that at least a good fraction of them will end up in some
sort of high-tech engineering or similar field.

There are likely other similar programs around. Many (most?)
are looking for mentors/coaches/judges and would welcome the
kind of people that frequent these newsgroups.

So times change. Kids are experimenting at a different level now and I
believe that many more are exposed to technology at a higher level than ever
before due to the proliferation of inexpensive computers. The may not be
dissecting old TVs and building radios like we did but overall, I see a lot
more bright, creative kids than when I was in school. I spent 8 years as a
high school algebra teacher during my hiatus from electronics repair, and
while there are more frustrations than ever in the schools, there are also
lots of really bright kids doing some really innovative things in computing
and robotics.

To me, the future looks bright. Just a little different.

Leonard Caillouet

"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

So times change. Kids are experimenting at a different level now and I
believe that many more are exposed to technology at a higher level than ever
before due to the proliferation of inexpensive computers. The may not be
dissecting old TVs and building radios like we did but overall, I see a lot
more bright, creative kids than when I was in school. I spent 8 years as a
high school algebra teacher during my hiatus from electronics repair, and
while there are more frustrations than ever in the schools, there are also
lots of really bright kids doing some really innovative things in computing
and robotics.

To me, the future looks bright. Just a little different.

Leonard Caillouet

"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

So times change. Kids are experimenting at a different level now and I
believe that many more are exposed to technology at a higher level than ever
before due to the proliferation of inexpensive computers. The may not be
dissecting old TVs and building radios like we did but overall, I see a lot
more bright, creative kids than when I was in school. I spent 8 years as a
high school algebra teacher during my hiatus from electronics repair, and
while there are more frustrations than ever in the schools, there are also
lots of really bright kids doing some really innovative things in computing
and robotics.

To me, the future looks bright. Just a little different.

Leonard Caillouet

"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
....not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
....not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
....not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use.

Already been done. In fact, there are many of them: SPI, I2C, etc.

--
Tim

In article ,
Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use.

Already been done. In fact, there are many of them: SPI, I2C, etc.

--
Tim

In article ,
Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

The problem is that modern digital circuits are too hard to use because
the chips have dozens or even hundreds of pins. Invent a serial
interface for modular digital components that a hobyist can use.

Already been done. In fact, there are many of them: SPI, I2C, etc.

--
Tim

I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

R. D. Davis ) writes:
In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
...not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like
local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of
it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done
it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.
But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that
the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,
and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm
not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning. Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and
others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Michael

R. D. Davis ) writes:
In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
...not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like
local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of
it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done
it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.
But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that
the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,
and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm
not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning. Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and
others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Michael

R. D. Davis ) writes:
In article ,
CJT writes:

It's also difficult to get enthused when all the functionality is in one
giant chip.

Who says that in order to have electronics as a hobby, one has to
bother with SMD chips, PICs, microprocessors and other modern-day
eye-straining annoyances?

There are still plenty of vacuum tubes being manufactured, as well as
components to use with them. Tubes are a heck of a lot more fun than
SMD circuitry. Even without tubes, look at the fun things that one
can create, like Jacob's ladders, cats whisker receives (although
analog radio transmissions may be doomed to the fate of replacement by
digital radio signals... needless complexity), and even (whispered)
spark gap transmitters. ;-) Many transistors are available as well.
...not to mention the present availability of many DIP ICs.

Who's to say that in 20 or 50 years time, some factory, somewhere,
won't still be churning out op-amps, 555 timers, TTL building block
chips like AND and OR gates, flip-flops, etc.? After all, look at
what's happened with tubes... some tube types are certainly rare, but,
others are plentiful and still in production. Of course, the
marketing 'droids at Radio Shack haven't a clue about any of that,
which is why they no longer sell tubes, tube sockets, suitable power
transformers, etc. in their stores, despite a market for it, given the
present-day popularity of DIY tube hi-fi.

Just my two-cents worth.

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like
local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of
it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done
it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.
But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that
the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,
and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm
not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning. Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and
others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Michael

test equipment hard to come by? you can buy a used TEK 7704a for a hundred
bucks with a couple plug-ins -- these scopes cost in the $17k region when
they were introduced and the y are just as functional today. you can
purchase the original HP 200 series audio oscillator for a song.

electronics parts and ratshack -- they've killed themselves off -- you can
get virtually anything next day from Digikey, Mouser, Allied Electronics,
Parts Express etc. there are guys on EBay who will sell whole parts kits to
stuff a junkbox much better than I did ripping apart TV's inthe 1960's. you
can buy high quality op-amps etc. directly from the manufacturers and get
USPS Priority mail shipping.

Popular Electronics (and the Gernsback publications they gobbled up) did
themselves in, as did Byte.

DIY Electronics is in very good shape, RatShack isn't. It never was.



"Jerry G." wrote in message
...
I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it
is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged
variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple
parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is
hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if
it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the
parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot
even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in.
Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you
still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it,
and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to
find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these
service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed
instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because
of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new
equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of
the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

test equipment hard to come by? you can buy a used TEK 7704a for a hundred
bucks with a couple plug-ins -- these scopes cost in the $17k region when
they were introduced and the y are just as functional today. you can
purchase the original HP 200 series audio oscillator for a song.

electronics parts and ratshack -- they've killed themselves off -- you can
get virtually anything next day from Digikey, Mouser, Allied Electronics,
Parts Express etc. there are guys on EBay who will sell whole parts kits to
stuff a junkbox much better than I did ripping apart TV's inthe 1960's. you
can buy high quality op-amps etc. directly from the manufacturers and get
USPS Priority mail shipping.

Popular Electronics (and the Gernsback publications they gobbled up) did
themselves in, as did Byte.

DIY Electronics is in very good shape, RatShack isn't. It never was.



"Jerry G." wrote in message
...
I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it
is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged
variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple
parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is
hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if
it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the
parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot
even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in.
Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you
still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it,
and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to
find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these
service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed
instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because
of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new
equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of
the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

test equipment hard to come by? you can buy a used TEK 7704a for a hundred
bucks with a couple plug-ins -- these scopes cost in the $17k region when
they were introduced and the y are just as functional today. you can
purchase the original HP 200 series audio oscillator for a song.

electronics parts and ratshack -- they've killed themselves off -- you can
get virtually anything next day from Digikey, Mouser, Allied Electronics,
Parts Express etc. there are guys on EBay who will sell whole parts kits to
stuff a junkbox much better than I did ripping apart TV's inthe 1960's. you
can buy high quality op-amps etc. directly from the manufacturers and get
USPS Priority mail shipping.

Popular Electronics (and the Gernsback publications they gobbled up) did
themselves in, as did Byte.

DIY Electronics is in very good shape, RatShack isn't. It never was.



"Jerry G." wrote in message
...
I wrote a reply to that article.

=========================================

If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it
is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged
variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple
parts
that are essential for the basics in order to make a simple radio.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is
hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist. Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if
it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the
parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot
even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in.
Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.
Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to
you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you
still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it,
and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to
find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these
service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed
instructions
about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because
of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new
equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of
the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

============================================

--

Season's Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"BOB URZ" wrote in message
...
Scary look at the future of electronic hobbyists.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=6978


Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In article ,
(Michael Black) writes:

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like

Well, one thing that I've noticed is that, at many hamfests, I don't
often observe many people younger than myself being present, and I'm
around four decades old.

local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of

Yes, I Know what you mean. Back when I was in elementary school and
junior high school, I didn't know of any other students who had
electronics as a hobby. It wasn't until high school, where we had
electronics classes, that I knew of other students who were interested
in electronics. However, electronics magazines, electronic kits,
electronic parts, etc. were plentiful. Back then, it wasn't uncommon
to find discarded television sets, radios, etc. from which one could
get a good supply of tubes, transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc.

Of course, today, any parent doing the sensible thing and giving a
child, in elementary school, a soldering iron, to build electronic
kits, and other projects, with, and to use for repairs and
disassembling things to use for parts, could be convicted of child
abuse. ...not to mention letting children use real screwdrivers,
saws, etc. without being carefully watched-over, like a lab specimen
under a microscope, while they use them. Back then, I used to take a
pen-knife. given to me by my grandfather, to school, from elementary
school onwards. Possession of a pen-knife was never considered a crime
back then. Never had a thought about it being used as a weapon---it
was a useful tool... heck, I've even heard teachers ask "does anyone
have a pen-knife with them? [to use to fix something or other]. How
times have changed. Anyway, surely this sort of overprotective
foolishness is only contributing to a decline in interest in
electronics as a hobby for many youngsters.

Getting a little off-topic, that also explains why one no longer sees
children climbing trees, building forts with real hammers and nails,
riding in the backs of station wagons with their feet sticking out the
tailgate windows, etc. They're so damned overprotected that they get
used to having their lives ruined by the overprotection! Then, just
think of what happens when they turn into adults and something minor
happens to them... we'll be a nation of filled with adult cry-babies
seeking more and more protective laws to protect them from their own
stupidity. An example of lunacy at its finest, is it not?

it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

Why should that be difficult? I still remember the great fun of
building crystal radios, p-box kits, the 100-in one kit, disassembling
old radios so as to use the parts from them to build other circuits (I
still take some things apart to get parts to build other projects),
etc. It was great fun and and I don't have any difficulty telling how
much fun it was. :-)

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done

True, but one can still have fond memories of such projects. As to
ICs, I don't find them useless (I do use them in some projects,
although I detest surface mount ICs). However, I don't think that the
electronics hobby has to revolve around only the latest and newest
devices and ICs. There's still a place for analog circuits,
transistors, vacuum-tubes and simpler ICs such as TTL building blocks
in DIP packages. Further more, using such devices as tubes,
transistors, etc. can still be fun, and doesn't limit one to simple
projects either. One doesn't have to build a robot, or some other
complex digital project---using complex ICs that probably won't be
around in a few years from now when repairs may be needed, in order to
have fun with complex circuitry that wont bore the builder.

it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.

....and eyes that have more trouble seeing those newfangled tiny parts.

But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that

For me it was a combination of both.

the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,

....if the electronics store had the parts needed... in this neck of
the woods, there always seemed to be quite a few needed parts that
local electronics stores didn't stock...it was either redesign the
circuit, or forget about building it from locally available parts.

and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

....and that was all the more fun, right? :-)

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm

Why on earth would anyone think that?

not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

Yes, it seems to reason that some would still feel the same feelings
of fun and accomplishment.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning.

Perhaps it's the sense of learning and creating things on one's own,
without being told "you have to do this, or learn that." One's doing
it because one wants to, not because one has to. It's unlike school,
where one is often told that one has to do something without being
given any reason as to why one has to do it. Give one an interesting
reason for doing or learning something, and one is more likely to do
better with learning or doing something. That certainly was the case
with me in school. I could, with equal ease, either fail, or get high
marks, in a very difficult class... it all depended upon how
interested I was in it, or how well I knew that I could apply what I
learned to something interesting.

Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and

Unfortunately, there are many who pursue electronics as a profession
only as a source of an income, having no interest, whatsoever, in
electronics as a hobby, and didn't know anything about electronics
until they began their engineering studies.

others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Well said.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
(Michael Black) writes:

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like

Well, one thing that I've noticed is that, at many hamfests, I don't
often observe many people younger than myself being present, and I'm
around four decades old.

local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of

Yes, I Know what you mean. Back when I was in elementary school and
junior high school, I didn't know of any other students who had
electronics as a hobby. It wasn't until high school, where we had
electronics classes, that I knew of other students who were interested
in electronics. However, electronics magazines, electronic kits,
electronic parts, etc. were plentiful. Back then, it wasn't uncommon
to find discarded television sets, radios, etc. from which one could
get a good supply of tubes, transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc.

Of course, today, any parent doing the sensible thing and giving a
child, in elementary school, a soldering iron, to build electronic
kits, and other projects, with, and to use for repairs and
disassembling things to use for parts, could be convicted of child
abuse. ...not to mention letting children use real screwdrivers,
saws, etc. without being carefully watched-over, like a lab specimen
under a microscope, while they use them. Back then, I used to take a
pen-knife. given to me by my grandfather, to school, from elementary
school onwards. Possession of a pen-knife was never considered a crime
back then. Never had a thought about it being used as a weapon---it
was a useful tool... heck, I've even heard teachers ask "does anyone
have a pen-knife with them? [to use to fix something or other]. How
times have changed. Anyway, surely this sort of overprotective
foolishness is only contributing to a decline in interest in
electronics as a hobby for many youngsters.

Getting a little off-topic, that also explains why one no longer sees
children climbing trees, building forts with real hammers and nails,
riding in the backs of station wagons with their feet sticking out the
tailgate windows, etc. They're so damned overprotected that they get
used to having their lives ruined by the overprotection! Then, just
think of what happens when they turn into adults and something minor
happens to them... we'll be a nation of filled with adult cry-babies
seeking more and more protective laws to protect them from their own
stupidity. An example of lunacy at its finest, is it not?

it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

Why should that be difficult? I still remember the great fun of
building crystal radios, p-box kits, the 100-in one kit, disassembling
old radios so as to use the parts from them to build other circuits (I
still take some things apart to get parts to build other projects),
etc. It was great fun and and I don't have any difficulty telling how
much fun it was. :-)

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done

True, but one can still have fond memories of such projects. As to
ICs, I don't find them useless (I do use them in some projects,
although I detest surface mount ICs). However, I don't think that the
electronics hobby has to revolve around only the latest and newest
devices and ICs. There's still a place for analog circuits,
transistors, vacuum-tubes and simpler ICs such as TTL building blocks
in DIP packages. Further more, using such devices as tubes,
transistors, etc. can still be fun, and doesn't limit one to simple
projects either. One doesn't have to build a robot, or some other
complex digital project---using complex ICs that probably won't be
around in a few years from now when repairs may be needed, in order to
have fun with complex circuitry that wont bore the builder.

it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.

....and eyes that have more trouble seeing those newfangled tiny parts.

But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that

For me it was a combination of both.

the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,

....if the electronics store had the parts needed... in this neck of
the woods, there always seemed to be quite a few needed parts that
local electronics stores didn't stock...it was either redesign the
circuit, or forget about building it from locally available parts.

and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

....and that was all the more fun, right? :-)

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm

Why on earth would anyone think that?

not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

Yes, it seems to reason that some would still feel the same feelings
of fun and accomplishment.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning.

Perhaps it's the sense of learning and creating things on one's own,
without being told "you have to do this, or learn that." One's doing
it because one wants to, not because one has to. It's unlike school,
where one is often told that one has to do something without being
given any reason as to why one has to do it. Give one an interesting
reason for doing or learning something, and one is more likely to do
better with learning or doing something. That certainly was the case
with me in school. I could, with equal ease, either fail, or get high
marks, in a very difficult class... it all depended upon how
interested I was in it, or how well I knew that I could apply what I
learned to something interesting.

Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and

Unfortunately, there are many who pursue electronics as a profession
only as a source of an income, having no interest, whatsoever, in
electronics as a hobby, and didn't know anything about electronics
until they began their engineering studies.

others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Well said.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
(Michael Black) writes:

If there's a dropoff (and it's hard to tell; visible signs, like

Well, one thing that I've noticed is that, at many hamfests, I don't
often observe many people younger than myself being present, and I'm
around four decades old.

local parts stores and magazines have faded out, but technical hobbies
weren't all that common thirty years ago when I was a kid), some of

Yes, I Know what you mean. Back when I was in elementary school and
junior high school, I didn't know of any other students who had
electronics as a hobby. It wasn't until high school, where we had
electronics classes, that I knew of other students who were interested
in electronics. However, electronics magazines, electronic kits,
electronic parts, etc. were plentiful. Back then, it wasn't uncommon
to find discarded television sets, radios, etc. from which one could
get a good supply of tubes, transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc.

Of course, today, any parent doing the sensible thing and giving a
child, in elementary school, a soldering iron, to build electronic
kits, and other projects, with, and to use for repairs and
disassembling things to use for parts, could be convicted of child
abuse. ...not to mention letting children use real screwdrivers,
saws, etc. without being carefully watched-over, like a lab specimen
under a microscope, while they use them. Back then, I used to take a
pen-knife. given to me by my grandfather, to school, from elementary
school onwards. Possession of a pen-knife was never considered a crime
back then. Never had a thought about it being used as a weapon---it
was a useful tool... heck, I've even heard teachers ask "does anyone
have a pen-knife with them? [to use to fix something or other]. How
times have changed. Anyway, surely this sort of overprotective
foolishness is only contributing to a decline in interest in
electronics as a hobby for many youngsters.

Getting a little off-topic, that also explains why one no longer sees
children climbing trees, building forts with real hammers and nails,
riding in the backs of station wagons with their feet sticking out the
tailgate windows, etc. They're so damned overprotected that they get
used to having their lives ruined by the overprotection! Then, just
think of what happens when they turn into adults and something minor
happens to them... we'll be a nation of filled with adult cry-babies
seeking more and more protective laws to protect them from their own
stupidity. An example of lunacy at its finest, is it not?

it might be due to those in the hobby being older, and being in the hobby
for decades. From that standpoint, it can be difficult to convey
the enjoyment that they themselves felt when they were kids and
interested in the hobby.

Why should that be difficult? I still remember the great fun of
building crystal radios, p-box kits, the 100-in one kit, disassembling
old radios so as to use the parts from them to build other circuits (I
still take some things apart to get parts to build other projects),
etc. It was great fun and and I don't have any difficulty telling how
much fun it was. :-)

And I think some of the fallout is in your comment about not
needing ICs etc. Oldtimers are bored by simple projects, they've done

True, but one can still have fond memories of such projects. As to
ICs, I don't find them useless (I do use them in some projects,
although I detest surface mount ICs). However, I don't think that the
electronics hobby has to revolve around only the latest and newest
devices and ICs. There's still a place for analog circuits,
transistors, vacuum-tubes and simpler ICs such as TTL building blocks
in DIP packages. Further more, using such devices as tubes,
transistors, etc. can still be fun, and doesn't limit one to simple
projects either. One doesn't have to build a robot, or some other
complex digital project---using complex ICs that probably won't be
around in a few years from now when repairs may be needed, in order to
have fun with complex circuitry that wont bore the builder.

it before, so they are seeing the hobby through those tired eyes.

....and eyes that have more trouble seeing those newfangled tiny parts.

But I can't forget the trouble I had trying to get some simple projects
going, and then the happiness when I finally built something that did
work. It wasn't about function, "I can build that thing instead of
buying it", it was about putting some parts together, learning to
solder, and then gaining enough knowledge so I had a better idea
of what all those parts were for. I think there is irony that

For me it was a combination of both.

the first two or three projects, I went down to the electronic
store with a list of parts I needed copied out of the magazine,

....if the electronics store had the parts needed... in this neck of
the woods, there always seemed to be quite a few needed parts that
local electronics stores didn't stock...it was either redesign the
circuit, or forget about building it from locally available parts.

and they did not work. But once I knew enough that I could put
something together with parts I'd taken out of scrap electronics,
the things started working.

....and that was all the more fun, right? :-)

Oldtimers think "in this technological age, how can kids see
anything in building a crystal radio [or whatever]?". But I'm

Why on earth would anyone think that?

not sure a ten year old today would not feel the same things
that we felt thirty or forty years ago when we were twelve, and
put something together and it worked.

Yes, it seems to reason that some would still feel the same feelings
of fun and accomplishment.

And as someone pointed out, it is those first steps that make the
hobbies important. It's learning, but not something happening in
school. If nothing else, you learn something about the very act
of learning.

Perhaps it's the sense of learning and creating things on one's own,
without being told "you have to do this, or learn that." One's doing
it because one wants to, not because one has to. It's unlike school,
where one is often told that one has to do something without being
given any reason as to why one has to do it. Give one an interesting
reason for doing or learning something, and one is more likely to do
better with learning or doing something. That certainly was the case
with me in school. I could, with equal ease, either fail, or get high
marks, in a very difficult class... it all depended upon how
interested I was in it, or how well I knew that I could apply what I
learned to something interesting.

Some will pursue electronics as a profession, and

Unfortunately, there are many who pursue electronics as a profession
only as a source of an income, having no interest, whatsoever, in
electronics as a hobby, and didn't know anything about electronics
until they began their engineering studies.

others will abandon it. In the former case, they will get
those early steps that will lead to other things later. In
the latter, they may at least have a better sense of the world
when electronics is everywhere.

Well said.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
"Jerry G." writes:
If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts

Not easy, but it is possible. Try specialty places like Antique Radio
Supply.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Actually, it was more difficult to obtain needed parts 10 to 20 years
ago before the WWW over the Internet made finding parts, without
access to the right catalogs, easier. Back then, I remember
encountering distributors who refused to sell parts to individuals;
however, said distributors would sell parts, in small quantities, to
businesses. The solution was to invent a fake and unique company name
and use it to place the orders... even got into a distributor's
expo. of some sort once when I was in college that way... filled up
the car with data books, samples, data sheets, etc... and even got a
free, thick, roast beef sandwich. :-)

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist.

Well, sort of... I paid $100 for a Tektronix 531 'scope back around
1982, even though the seller had connected most of the filaments to B+
when he "repaired" the 'scope. Wow, the insides of that 'scope turned
white with bright light when the B+ relay kicked on! Fortunately,
only a few tubes needed to be replaced. A couple of years later,
however, I picked up an HP 1707B 'scope from a college surplus
sale... there was no price marked on it, and the seller didn't know
what it was. I offered $5 for that, and $1 for a rebadged 25" RCA
color TV (all tubes, except for audio, and it worked), and the offer
was accepted. Today, the Tek 531 still works, but the HP 1707B's HV
transformer burned out a decade ago, and I didn't find a replacement
HV PSU until last year.

That's not to say that much used test equipment, at low prices, doesn't
turn up here and there, such as at hamfests. However, the prices for
used 'scopes, etc. at hamfests are way higher than they used to be.
Of course, I did find a Tek. 585 last year at a hamfest with a "free"
sticker on it. :-) Also, back then, we had Heathkit from which we
could purchase some rather nice electronic test equipment in kit form
without spending a fortune.

Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Well, there is still quite a bit of repairable equipment around;
however, alas, there's now also the added problem of collectors
acquiring it, not to use, but to put in on display or in a storage
area, in anticipation of higher future value.

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

Sometimes they'll sell one the operation/service manuals though, but
only on microfiche. Their game is not to produce well-made,
repairable, test equipment that lasts a long time, but to make
equipment that becomes as obsolete as soon as possible so as to make
more money selling more new equipment that will become obsolete even
more quickly... this, I suspect, allows them to employ more sales
droids than engineers and technicians.

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.

What will we need more engineers or technicians over here for?
[sarcasm intended]... it's cheaper to just export/outsource those
jobs, like the jobs of computer programmers, web site designers,
etc., over to China, India, Outer Mongolia, etc. [sarcasm still
intended] To make the politicians and biz 'droids happy, we need fewer
people who can actually think and solve problems living, or at least
earning an income, in this country. As far as the average, and
corrupt, politician, and biz 'droid, is concerned, thinkers question
too much and they make the 'droids look less intelligent in
comparison, so, put 'em out on the steets with a pan-handle by
exporting their jobs, and keep on importing those mexicans and other
cheap forms of labor who will multiply like roaches and vote in large
quantities for certain politicians.

Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to

Needlessly overcomplicated rubbish, just like modern cars, which is
why I drive a 30 year old car. If we cut down on overpopulation in
this country (low birth rate, very little immigration, legal or
illegal) we wouldn't have to worry about so much pollution and
fuel-efficient cars, etc. Of course, as we all know, [much sarcasm
intended] it's perfectly logical to selling all of the remaining farms
and woodlands to land developers [destroyers] who will create
temporary jobs (until there's no more land) for construction workers
and make large profits. That will result in more economic growth and
tax revenue to make our politicrats happy. Then, once the remaining
farm land is gone [more sarcasm intended], we can just utilize the
free trade agreements and buy unregulated pesticide and hepatitis-laden
produce from South America and elsewhere, and meats from factory
farms, where the cows, pigs, etc. are fattened up indoors and never
get to roam in green pastures. Then, there might also be plenty of
fish available who've been fattened up with lots of mercury, fertilizer
run-off from factory farms and golf-courses, and dioxins. You see,
it's called progress [as defined by most politicians, many biophobic
city slickers and modern-day suburb dwellers, which includes large
numbers of biz 'droids].

you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

Yep.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

We will have a service oriented economy, designed so that nothing
should be repaired... perhaps repairing things will become illegal,
since it can deprive certain corporations of the profits they desire.

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions

Right. People are not supposed to think. [sarcasm intended] People
are just supposed to learn to follow orders and learn to be good
little corporate droids and obedient citizens, who don't ask questions
or try to figure things out. It's better that way for the careers,
and earnings, of politicrats and CEOs. Yes, more and more emphasis
will be placed on education, but the kids will be trained to "think"
only as they are told, and only about what they're told to think
about, as more and more Ritalin, and other psychotherpeutic medicines,
are infused into their bloodstreams to control them. It's all about
increasing control over society and large profits, and incomes, for a
relative few.

Ever notice how it also appears that we're heading closer and closer
to the plans of Marx and Ingles? Well, not exactly, but a corrupt,
but nonetheless similar and heinous plan. It's just what the damned
communists, and communists in sheeps' clothing (socialists), have
wanted to occur over he get rid of the middle class, stir up a
revolt and take over. Kruschev said it would happen without them
having to fire a shot. Hopefully I'm wrong, but... it appears that
we're could either be headed for that or a dictatorship (but then,
we've been living in something approaching that throughout the Clinton
and Bush administrations).

about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

Yep... it's designed that way on purpose.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

Of course. Plus, many people have grown accustomed to just throwing
things out and buying new, whether or not the items can be repaired,
even if the repairs are simple to perform. We live in a throw-away
society... throw away whatever isn't deemed useful; people included.

Just my two cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
"Jerry G." writes:
If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts

Not easy, but it is possible. Try specialty places like Antique Radio
Supply.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Actually, it was more difficult to obtain needed parts 10 to 20 years
ago before the WWW over the Internet made finding parts, without
access to the right catalogs, easier. Back then, I remember
encountering distributors who refused to sell parts to individuals;
however, said distributors would sell parts, in small quantities, to
businesses. The solution was to invent a fake and unique company name
and use it to place the orders... even got into a distributor's
expo. of some sort once when I was in college that way... filled up
the car with data books, samples, data sheets, etc... and even got a
free, thick, roast beef sandwich. :-)

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist.

Well, sort of... I paid $100 for a Tektronix 531 'scope back around
1982, even though the seller had connected most of the filaments to B+
when he "repaired" the 'scope. Wow, the insides of that 'scope turned
white with bright light when the B+ relay kicked on! Fortunately,
only a few tubes needed to be replaced. A couple of years later,
however, I picked up an HP 1707B 'scope from a college surplus
sale... there was no price marked on it, and the seller didn't know
what it was. I offered $5 for that, and $1 for a rebadged 25" RCA
color TV (all tubes, except for audio, and it worked), and the offer
was accepted. Today, the Tek 531 still works, but the HP 1707B's HV
transformer burned out a decade ago, and I didn't find a replacement
HV PSU until last year.

That's not to say that much used test equipment, at low prices, doesn't
turn up here and there, such as at hamfests. However, the prices for
used 'scopes, etc. at hamfests are way higher than they used to be.
Of course, I did find a Tek. 585 last year at a hamfest with a "free"
sticker on it. :-) Also, back then, we had Heathkit from which we
could purchase some rather nice electronic test equipment in kit form
without spending a fortune.

Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Well, there is still quite a bit of repairable equipment around;
however, alas, there's now also the added problem of collectors
acquiring it, not to use, but to put in on display or in a storage
area, in anticipation of higher future value.

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

Sometimes they'll sell one the operation/service manuals though, but
only on microfiche. Their game is not to produce well-made,
repairable, test equipment that lasts a long time, but to make
equipment that becomes as obsolete as soon as possible so as to make
more money selling more new equipment that will become obsolete even
more quickly... this, I suspect, allows them to employ more sales
droids than engineers and technicians.

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.

What will we need more engineers or technicians over here for?
[sarcasm intended]... it's cheaper to just export/outsource those
jobs, like the jobs of computer programmers, web site designers,
etc., over to China, India, Outer Mongolia, etc. [sarcasm still
intended] To make the politicians and biz 'droids happy, we need fewer
people who can actually think and solve problems living, or at least
earning an income, in this country. As far as the average, and
corrupt, politician, and biz 'droid, is concerned, thinkers question
too much and they make the 'droids look less intelligent in
comparison, so, put 'em out on the steets with a pan-handle by
exporting their jobs, and keep on importing those mexicans and other
cheap forms of labor who will multiply like roaches and vote in large
quantities for certain politicians.

Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to

Needlessly overcomplicated rubbish, just like modern cars, which is
why I drive a 30 year old car. If we cut down on overpopulation in
this country (low birth rate, very little immigration, legal or
illegal) we wouldn't have to worry about so much pollution and
fuel-efficient cars, etc. Of course, as we all know, [much sarcasm
intended] it's perfectly logical to selling all of the remaining farms
and woodlands to land developers [destroyers] who will create
temporary jobs (until there's no more land) for construction workers
and make large profits. That will result in more economic growth and
tax revenue to make our politicrats happy. Then, once the remaining
farm land is gone [more sarcasm intended], we can just utilize the
free trade agreements and buy unregulated pesticide and hepatitis-laden
produce from South America and elsewhere, and meats from factory
farms, where the cows, pigs, etc. are fattened up indoors and never
get to roam in green pastures. Then, there might also be plenty of
fish available who've been fattened up with lots of mercury, fertilizer
run-off from factory farms and golf-courses, and dioxins. You see,
it's called progress [as defined by most politicians, many biophobic
city slickers and modern-day suburb dwellers, which includes large
numbers of biz 'droids].

you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

Yep.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

We will have a service oriented economy, designed so that nothing
should be repaired... perhaps repairing things will become illegal,
since it can deprive certain corporations of the profits they desire.

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions

Right. People are not supposed to think. [sarcasm intended] People
are just supposed to learn to follow orders and learn to be good
little corporate droids and obedient citizens, who don't ask questions
or try to figure things out. It's better that way for the careers,
and earnings, of politicrats and CEOs. Yes, more and more emphasis
will be placed on education, but the kids will be trained to "think"
only as they are told, and only about what they're told to think
about, as more and more Ritalin, and other psychotherpeutic medicines,
are infused into their bloodstreams to control them. It's all about
increasing control over society and large profits, and incomes, for a
relative few.

Ever notice how it also appears that we're heading closer and closer
to the plans of Marx and Ingles? Well, not exactly, but a corrupt,
but nonetheless similar and heinous plan. It's just what the damned
communists, and communists in sheeps' clothing (socialists), have
wanted to occur over he get rid of the middle class, stir up a
revolt and take over. Kruschev said it would happen without them
having to fire a shot. Hopefully I'm wrong, but... it appears that
we're could either be headed for that or a dictatorship (but then,
we've been living in something approaching that throughout the Clinton
and Bush administrations).

about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

Yep... it's designed that way on purpose.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

Of course. Plus, many people have grown accustomed to just throwing
things out and buying new, whether or not the items can be repaired,
even if the repairs are simple to perform. We live in a throw-away
society... throw away whatever isn't deemed useful; people included.

Just my two cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

In article ,
"Jerry G." writes:
If you ever tried to buy the parts these days to build a simple radio
without getting in to complex prescalers, and veractor tuned circuits, it is
very difficult! Try to buy a variable capacitor or a multi-ganged variable
capacitor, or a 2000 ohm headphones. This is an example of two simple parts

Not easy, but it is possible. Try specialty places like Antique Radio
Supply.

Many of the suppliers want to sell in large volumes, and will not want to
make a bill if the sales are under too large an amount for the young
hobbyist.

Actually, it was more difficult to obtain needed parts 10 to 20 years
ago before the WWW over the Internet made finding parts, without
access to the right catalogs, easier. Back then, I remember
encountering distributors who refused to sell parts to individuals;
however, said distributors would sell parts, in small quantities, to
businesses. The solution was to invent a fake and unique company name
and use it to place the orders... even got into a distributor's
expo. of some sort once when I was in college that way... filled up
the car with data books, samples, data sheets, etc... and even got a
free, thick, roast beef sandwich. :-)

Used test equipment such as a good scope and generator (RF or Audio) is hard
to come by at a reasonable price for a hobbyist.

Well, sort of... I paid $100 for a Tektronix 531 'scope back around
1982, even though the seller had connected most of the filaments to B+
when he "repaired" the 'scope. Wow, the insides of that 'scope turned
white with bright light when the B+ relay kicked on! Fortunately,
only a few tubes needed to be replaced. A couple of years later,
however, I picked up an HP 1707B 'scope from a college surplus
sale... there was no price marked on it, and the seller didn't know
what it was. I offered $5 for that, and $1 for a rebadged 25" RCA
color TV (all tubes, except for audio, and it worked), and the offer
was accepted. Today, the Tek 531 still works, but the HP 1707B's HV
transformer burned out a decade ago, and I didn't find a replacement
HV PSU until last year.

That's not to say that much used test equipment, at low prices, doesn't
turn up here and there, such as at hamfests. However, the prices for
used 'scopes, etc. at hamfests are way higher than they used to be.
Of course, I did find a Tek. 585 last year at a hamfest with a "free"
sticker on it. :-) Also, back then, we had Heathkit from which we
could purchase some rather nice electronic test equipment in kit form
without spending a fortune.

Many times the used
equipment is in terrible shape and too expensive to get working. Then if it
is more than about 5 years old, the manufactures don't even have the parts!
How the hell is the poor fellow able to get his older used equipment to
work???

Well, there is still quite a bit of repairable equipment around;
however, alas, there's now also the added problem of collectors
acquiring it, not to use, but to put in on display or in a storage
area, in anticipation of higher future value.

Then there are the ones that want to try to fix something. You cannot even
get the parts from the manufactures. They tell you to send the unit in. Or,
they will tell you they do not have any after warranty parts, because the
unit is technically not worth to repair. So, how can the poor guy try to
fix something and learn where there will be no parts available??? This
goes no and on...

Sometimes they'll sell one the operation/service manuals though, but
only on microfiche. Their game is not to produce well-made,
repairable, test equipment that lasts a long time, but to make
equipment that becomes as obsolete as soon as possible so as to make
more money selling more new equipment that will become obsolete even
more quickly... this, I suspect, allows them to employ more sales
droids than engineers and technicians.

I am just touching part of the problem. If the manufactures would like to
see more engineers, they better arrange that there are the parts available
to tinker with, and the test gear is available, and is affordable to have.

What will we need more engineers or technicians over here for?
[sarcasm intended]... it's cheaper to just export/outsource those
jobs, like the jobs of computer programmers, web site designers,
etc., over to China, India, Outer Mongolia, etc. [sarcasm still
intended] To make the politicians and biz 'droids happy, we need fewer
people who can actually think and solve problems living, or at least
earning an income, in this country. As far as the average, and
corrupt, politician, and biz 'droid, is concerned, thinkers question
too much and they make the 'droids look less intelligent in
comparison, so, put 'em out on the steets with a pan-handle by
exporting their jobs, and keep on importing those mexicans and other
cheap forms of labor who will multiply like roaches and vote in large
quantities for certain politicians.

Also, if you open a TV set or a monitor to fix yourself, it is all
microcomputer run, and uses very complex design. Just to try a simple
adjustment, you need the expensive service manual, if they will sell it to

Needlessly overcomplicated rubbish, just like modern cars, which is
why I drive a 30 year old car. If we cut down on overpopulation in
this country (low birth rate, very little immigration, legal or
illegal) we wouldn't have to worry about so much pollution and
fuel-efficient cars, etc. Of course, as we all know, [much sarcasm
intended] it's perfectly logical to selling all of the remaining farms
and woodlands to land developers [destroyers] who will create
temporary jobs (until there's no more land) for construction workers
and make large profits. That will result in more economic growth and
tax revenue to make our politicrats happy. Then, once the remaining
farm land is gone [more sarcasm intended], we can just utilize the
free trade agreements and buy unregulated pesticide and hepatitis-laden
produce from South America and elsewhere, and meats from factory
farms, where the cows, pigs, etc. are fattened up indoors and never
get to roam in green pastures. Then, there might also be plenty of
fish available who've been fattened up with lots of mercury, fertilizer
run-off from factory farms and golf-courses, and dioxins. You see,
it's called progress [as defined by most politicians, many biophobic
city slickers and modern-day suburb dwellers, which includes large
numbers of biz 'droids].

you (and its expensive when available), the software, computer interface,
and so-forth...! There are models with built in service menus but you still
need the proper set-ups to do the adjustments properly.

Yep.

If it is a computer monitor that you want to tinker with to service it, and
call the manufacture, they will tell you that they will not sell you the
parts. You must send it in. How the hell are these companies going to find
good techs in the future, if they don't encourage the hobbyists to do this
at home when they are learning?

We will have a service oriented economy, designed so that nothing
should be repaired... perhaps repairing things will become illegal,
since it can deprive certain corporations of the profits they desire.

I also found that the level of technicians working at most of these service
centres are not very knowledgeable, other than following fixed instructions

Right. People are not supposed to think. [sarcasm intended] People
are just supposed to learn to follow orders and learn to be good
little corporate droids and obedient citizens, who don't ask questions
or try to figure things out. It's better that way for the careers,
and earnings, of politicrats and CEOs. Yes, more and more emphasis
will be placed on education, but the kids will be trained to "think"
only as they are told, and only about what they're told to think
about, as more and more Ritalin, and other psychotherpeutic medicines,
are infused into their bloodstreams to control them. It's all about
increasing control over society and large profits, and incomes, for a
relative few.

Ever notice how it also appears that we're heading closer and closer
to the plans of Marx and Ingles? Well, not exactly, but a corrupt,
but nonetheless similar and heinous plan. It's just what the damned
communists, and communists in sheeps' clothing (socialists), have
wanted to occur over he get rid of the middle class, stir up a
revolt and take over. Kruschev said it would happen without them
having to fire a shot. Hopefully I'm wrong, but... it appears that
we're could either be headed for that or a dictatorship (but then,
we've been living in something approaching that throughout the Clinton
and Bush administrations).

about how to change specific boards, and do specific adjustments. There is
very little troubleshooting done at the component level anymore, because of
the cost of the labour, the sophistication of the assembly, and the
instruments required. Also, the skill level will have to be too high for
what most service centres are willing to pay.

Yep... it's designed that way on purpose.

In the end, only a very few people will be skilled to design new equipment,
and much fewer to understand how to properly service it. There are many
appliances that are tossed in the garbage because of wrong estimates of the
faults, due to the fact that the tech doing the estimate was not skilled
enough to do the work required. This goes on and on...

Of course. Plus, many people have grown accustomed to just throwing
things out and buying new, whether or not the items can be repaired,
even if the repairs are simple to perform. We live in a throw-away
society... throw away whatever isn't deemed useful; people included.

Just my two cents worth.

--
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.