I recently took a couple of my studio mikes out for live sound using
them in figure of 8.
I used a Audio Technica 4033 as a center mike pointed toward the back of
the stage, and the 414 in figure of 8 on the same stand picking up the
musicians standing on the side in a half circle.
This is the way this band likes to perform.
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Jim

"Jim" wrote in message
m...
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson

Jim wrote:
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.

How did you hear this? Were you talking into the mike while listening
through headphones? That would explain that kind of thing.

Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

The front and rear lobes are out of phase with one another. That's what
makes the whole figure-8 thing work.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jim wrote:
I recently took a couple of my studio mikes out for live sound using
them in figure of 8.
I used a Audio Technica 4033 as a center mike pointed toward the back
of
the stage, and the 414 in figure of 8 on the same stand picking up
the
musicians standing on the side in a half circle.
This is the way this band likes to perform.
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different
characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm
and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and

noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on
this?

I have had occasion to use AKG 414B-ULS's like that for TV music
mixing, between Middle eastern hand percussion and Zither, even the
back of a kick drum and a bass amp. Any off axis bleed will degrade
the source of the bleed, so you might try putting the mic a bit closer
to the source with the more ambient sound.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff A1 / Fox News Channel / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

In article , Jim
wrote:

We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Jim


This reminded me of an old trick for a multipattern mic when you don't
like the sound of it in cardiod but are in a pinch. Put it in fig 8,
turn it around and listen to the other side.

In the case of your 414, one of the diaphrams is wanting. AKG will take
your $ and fix this if you like. But it probably won't be cheap.

The omni setting on this mic probably doesn't sound as good as it
should either.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

"Jim" wrote in message
m...
I recently took a couple of my studio mikes out for live sound using them
in figure of 8.
I used a Audio Technica 4033 as a center mike pointed toward the back of
the stage, and the 414 in figure of 8 on the same stand picking up the
musicians standing on the side in a half circle.
This is the way this band likes to perform.
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics on
the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different sound
engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I have a well-used B-ULS and a brand-spanking-new B-XL11, and they both
sound identical each side (and almost identical one to the other, but not
quite).

You could have gunk built up on the cardioid-sde diaphrams from breath (or
reducing the capsule hi-z insulation) which could kill some brightness,
making the 'backside' sound thin in comparison. or you could have a room
with asymetrical absorbtion/reflection characteristics.

Alternatively you could be being psychologically affected by the dissimilar
grille colours .

geoff

Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.
I found it odd that on one side of the mike it sounded normal on the
other side a bit thin, not like flipping phase on a sine wave, but more
like flipping phase on a stereo pair that is out of phase.
I had band members walk around in the half circle and playing their
instrument the whole time. It wasn't just me listening, it was done over
4 different nights with 4 different house engineers, at 4 different
venues, with two different 414b-uls's.
I actually had the chance two days after that tour to try a figure of 8
set up with two U-89's in a recording session. One of the 89's sounded
normal on both sides of the mike, the other sounded like my 414's, out
of phase sounding, interesting.
Thanks Neil,
Jim

"Geoff Wood" wrote in message


Oh yeah, the front diaphram can also get 'tired' quicker than the rear if
used for miking bass instruments/drum.

geoff

In article , Jim
wrote:

Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.


I don't think that's what Neil was talking about.

If one of the diaphrams was wired incorrectly, then all the 414's
pickup patterns would be seriously messed up.

It sure sounds as simple as one side of your dual sided 414 capsule
needs work. As I said before, check out the omni setting, it also will
be more sucky than it should be as well.

You can always just use it in cardiod. Live with its limitations. Or
get it fixed.

A multipattern mic is a nice thing to have, as your use of figure 8 has
shown you. Typically, these kinda mics sound best in omni, if you can
get away with it.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

"Jim" wrote in message
m...
Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.

Well, without hearing the recording itself, I would probably have to chime
in with the person who suggested that the diaphragm might need some work...
you might have a problem if there is a significant difference between one
side & the other... yeah there's probably going to be **some** difference,
given that if a mic has been used in cardiod 97% of the time & omni or fig-8
the remaining 3% of the time, over time one could expect different degrees
of sonic wear & tear from one side to the other.

Just remember that a single source recorded into a single mic cannot be
out-of-phase with itself - if this is the phenomenon you've got happening,
then it's got to be a problem with the mic, or some room reflections
wreaking havoc on what the mic is actually hearing.

Neil Henderson

"david" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim
wrote:

Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.


I don't think that's what Neil was talking about.

Yer right, that's not what I meant - I didn't know if he was aware that one
side is indeed out-of-phase with the other.

If one of the diaphrams was wired incorrectly, then all the 414's
pickup patterns would be seriously messed up.

Well... only if he used it in anything other than cardiod - that pattern
would still be fine (unless the front side was the one that was wired
bassackwards!), but you bring up a good point - I wonder if it's possile
that the back side is mis-wired? Unlikely, I know, but possible, and maybe
worth checking.

A multipattern mic is a nice thing to have, as your use of figure 8 has
shown you. Typically, these kinda mics sound best in omni, if you can
get away with it.

Dittoes from me - I kinda like any of the 414 series in omni, especially for
BG vox.

Neil Henderson

Jim wrote:
I recently took a couple of my studio mikes out for live sound using
them in figure of 8.
I used a Audio Technica 4033 as a center mike pointed toward the back of
the stage, and the 414 in figure of 8 on the same stand picking up the
musicians standing on the side in a half circle.
This is the way this band likes to perform.
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Jim

It sounds like you had an MS set up. What happens if you decode it
as MS? If I were to have an MS set up, but just play them back
mono'ed I would expect the instruments on the back-lobe side to
sound this way.

Rob R.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:07:17 -0500, Jim wrote
(in article ):

Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.
I found it odd that on one side of the mike it sounded normal on the
other side a bit thin, not like flipping phase on a sine wave, but more
like flipping phase on a stereo pair that is out of phase.
I had band members walk around in the half circle and playing their
instrument the whole time. It wasn't just me listening, it was done over
4 different nights with 4 different house engineers, at 4 different
venues, with two different 414b-uls's.
I actually had the chance two days after that tour to try a figure of 8
set up with two U-89's in a recording session. One of the 89's sounded
normal on both sides of the mike, the other sounded like my 414's, out
of phase sounding, interesting.
Thanks Neil,
Jim

Jim,

Your notion of what out of phase means is leading you astray. With mics that
have a properly operating figure of eight, the sound quality is the same on
each side.

What you may have discovered is that there are many mics with figure of eight
patterns that aren't the same on both sides.

Unfortunately, due to lack of design or to a broken mic as with the
problematic u 89, this is true more often than it should be.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:40:06 -0500, Neil Henderson wrote
(in article ) :


"david" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim
wrote:

Neil Henderson wrote:

"Jim" wrote in message
m...

Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson


I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.


I don't think that's what Neil was talking about.

Yer right, that's not what I meant - I didn't know if he was aware that one
side is indeed out-of-phase with the other.

If one of the diaphrams was wired incorrectly, then all the 414's
pickup patterns would be seriously messed up.

Well... only if he used it in anything other than cardiod - that pattern
would still be fine (unless the front side was the one that was wired
bassackwards!), but you bring up a good point - I wonder if it's possile
that the back side is mis-wired? Unlikely, I know, but possible, and maybe
worth checking.

if it was just miswired, it would be an omni instead of a figure of eight.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Uzytkownik "Ty Ford" napisal w wiadomosci
...

Your notion of what out of phase means is leading you astray. With mics
that
have a properly operating figure of eight, the sound quality is the same
on
each side.


* How about Royer SF12 - AFAIR its slightly brighter on the back, then on
the front.
But its not a regular mic

kisses.

Essentially, from your description, you're using an off-axis M-S setup. Fix
it and run M-S, decode and you'll get everything back in spades. But it
can't really be right in the middle of the group.


--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Jim" wrote in message
m...
I recently took a couple of my studio mikes out for live sound using
them in figure of 8.
I used a Audio Technica 4033 as a center mike pointed toward the back of
the stage, and the 414 in figure of 8 on the same stand picking up the
musicians standing on the side in a half circle.
This is the way this band likes to perform.
We the sound is great but I noticed some very different characteristics
on the 414 from one side of the Figure of 8 to the other.
The side that is normally addressed when set to cardiod sounded warm and
full, the back side of the mike sounded a bit thin.
Since the fiddle was on the warm side of the mike and the guitar was
mostly on the thin side it kind of works.
I used two different 414's on different nights in different halls and
noticed the exact same effect in different locations with different
sound engineers.
Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Jim

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:48:19 -0500, hefalump wrote
(in article ):


Uzytkownik "Ty Ford" napisal w wiadomosci
...

Your notion of what out of phase means is leading you astray. With mics
that
have a properly operating figure of eight, the sound quality is the same
on
each side.


* How about Royer SF12 - AFAIR its slightly brighter on the back, then on
the front.
But its not a regular mic

kisses.



Exactly. It's not a regular mic. They moved the ribbon forward of the center
of the flux field on purpose to try and gain a little HF.

As such, it's not the mic you want for Mid/Side.

Regards,

Ty Ford

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Neil Henderson wrote:
"david" wrote in message
...

In article , Jim
wrote:


Neil Henderson wrote:


"Jim" wrote in message
y.com...


Could these capsules be out of phase? Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Well, it IS out-of-phase with the front side, if that's what you mean.

Neil Henderson



I didn't think of that Neil, but that makes sense.
I actually meant out of phase in a way that creates that out of phase
sound, the sound that lacks a lot of information, especially the full
spectrum of sound.


I don't think that's what Neil was talking about.


Yer right, that's not what I meant - I didn't know if he was aware that one
side is indeed out-of-phase with the other.


If one of the diaphrams was wired incorrectly, then all the 414's
pickup patterns would be seriously messed up.


Well... only if he used it in anything other than cardiod - that pattern
would still be fine (unless the front side was the one that was wired
bassackwards!), but you bring up a good point - I wonder if it's possile
that the back side is mis-wired? Unlikely, I know, but possible, and maybe
worth checking.


A multipattern mic is a nice thing to have, as your use of figure 8 has
shown you. Typically, these kinda mics sound best in omni, if you can
get away with it.


Dittoes from me - I kinda like any of the 414 series in omni, especially for
BG vox.

Neil Henderson



Thanks once again fella's.
I do understand what Neil meant in the original post, I just never put
thought into the physics of the two diaphram capsule design till after
he mentioned it.
I will try them in omni to see what they sound like.
I hadn't thought of using M-S either, as is mentioned in another post
related to this topic, though those are interesting thoughts as well.
These mikes have mostly set in my studio unused for about 8 years now. I
pull them out now and again and sometimes lend them to folks.
They have been used in very clean environments and I don't think have
ever been used for anything but stringed instruments and vocals, but
when I've lent them out a few times so who knows.
The interesting thing to me is that the side of the mike that gets the
most use in cardiod is the side that sounds best on both of them.
Thank everyone for your thoughts on this.
Jim