I know this a pretty vague question, but which do folks think is a
better sounding machine? Otari 1/2" 4-track (MX-5050) or Otari 1"
8-track (forgot the model # but its a big sucka on a rolling chassis
with input strips in a vertical panel. # of tracks is somewhat
irrelevant. I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

Dan Fox

Daniel Fox wrote:

I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

I'd go for the Otari 1" 8-track. It's more like "the real thing." But
why not look for an Ampex AG-440? That IS the real thing. Or better
yet, just make clean recordings. Tape saturation as a processing tool
isn't all it's rumored to be by those who have never recorded projects
on a good analog tape recorder. The big boys who like recording analog
isn't because of saturation effects, it's about a preference for the
overall sound. If it was something that was easily described, it could
be modeled, and so far it hasn't been, at least not completely
successfully.

I wonder what a project recored, like a real studio project with live
musicians, to ProTools through 24 channels of that new Portico analog
tape simulator gizmo would sound like.

In article .com,
Daniel Fox wrote:
I know this a pretty vague question, but which do folks think is a
better sounding machine? Otari 1/2" 4-track (MX-5050) or Otari 1"
8-track (forgot the model # but its a big sucka on a rolling chassis
with input strips in a vertical panel. # of tracks is somewhat
irrelevant. I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

I don't know which 1" machine that is, since they made several matching
that description. But the heads on the 5050 will saturate before modern
tape formulations will, which probably defeats the purpose if you are
trying to get tape overload sounds.

And, you can't get easy-to-overload red-oxide tape in 1/2" or 1" any more,
just in 1/4".
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Daniel Fox wrote:

I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

I'd go for the Otari 1" 8-track. It's more like "the real thing." But
why not look for an Ampex AG-440? That IS the real thing. Or better
yet, just make clean recordings. Tape saturation as a processing tool
isn't all it's rumored to be by those who have never recorded projects
on a good analog tape recorder. The big boys who like recording analog
isn't because of saturation effects, it's about a preference for the
overall sound. If it was something that was easily described, it could
be modeled, and so far it hasn't been, at least not completely
successfully.

I wonder what a project recored, like a real studio project with live
musicians, to ProTools through 24 channels of that new Portico analog
tape simulator gizmo would sound like.


MTR 10 and MTR 12 are Otari's pro tape machines (2 track 1/4" and 4 track
1/2"). If you are partial to Otari, look for them. I also agree with Mike,
for your purposes an Ampex AG-440 would do equally well. Finally, I also
agree with him that the real value in pro-class tape machine is in its
overall sound, not just that it can be overdriven into saturation. If all
you want is the saturation, it's a poor value trade-off IMO.

"Daniel Fox" wrote in message
oups.com...
I know this a pretty vague question, but which do folks think is a
better sounding machine? Otari 1/2" 4-track (MX-5050) or Otari 1"
8-track (forgot the model # but its a big sucka on a rolling chassis
with input strips in a vertical panel. # of tracks is somewhat
irrelevant. I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

Dan Fox


A friend of mine runs Protools and an Otari MTR 12, for exactly the same
reasons that you want. Its a half inch 2 track. The EQ cards have record
level adjustments for Bass, Mid and High, which he tweaks to get the
particular sound he is after, and he is really pleased with the results.
You may want to consider which machines out there have this capability and
which don't.

I'm not really that up on tape machines, but my gut feeling is that 2 tracks
may be more reliable and cheaper to run and maintain than multitracks?
Maybe someone can clarify this.


Gareth.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article .com,
Daniel Fox wrote:
Otari 1"
8-track (forgot the model # but its a big sucka on a rolling chassis
with input strips in a vertical panel.

I don't know which 1" machine that is, since they made several matching
that description.


Really? I don't think I ever saw an Otari 1" 8-track besides the model
7800.

maybe I am a litle nuts to want to keep and maintain a multi track
machine just as a special effects box. Thanks for the info Scott about
modern tape formulation and the 5050

Gareth Magennis wrote:
I'm not really that up on tape machines, but my gut feeling is that 2 tracks
may be more reliable and cheaper to run and maintain than multitracks?
Maybe someone can clarify this.

Well, we've got an Akai 1/4" 2 track Sound on Sound. If I can get the
appropriate tape for this machine maybe it would be better suited to my
purposes. Its alot smaller but it also only runs at 7 ips.

Dan Fox

In article . com,
says...

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I don't know which 1" machine that is, since they made several matching
that description.

He's probalby thinking of their first, the 7800, but I believe Otrai
made 1" 8-track heads for the MX-70 and almost certainly for the 1"
MX-80.


MX7800,MX70,MX80,MTR 90II were all made in 1" 8 track.
MX5050 I have only ever seen in 1\2" 8 track

Pip pip
(& Bah Humbug y'all)
--
Chris Notton
Replace "nospam" with my surname to reply by email
Sostituisca il "nospam" con il mio cognome per rispondere
}////(*

Daniel Fox wrote:
Well, we've got an Akai 1/4" 2 track Sound on Sound. If I can get the
appropriate tape for this machine maybe it would be better suited to my
purposes. Its alot smaller but it also only runs at 7 ips.

You sure it's not a quarter-track machine and not half track? If it one
of the post-Roberts machines, it may need a JIS standard tape but the
older Roberts machines will bias up most pre-406 tapes.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I don't know which 1" machine that is, since they made several matching
that description.

He's probalby thinking of their first, the 7800, but I believe Otrai
made 1" 8-track heads for the MX-70 and almost certainly for the 1"
MX-80.

I'd put a thumbs down on the 7800, but the MX-70 is an entirely usable
production machine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I'd put a thumbs down on the 7800, but the MX-70 is an entirely usable
production machine.

But he doesn't WANT a production macine. He wants an effect processor.

Mike Rivers wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

I'd put a thumbs down on the 7800, but the MX-70 is an entirely usable
production machine.

But he doesn't WANT a production macine. He wants an effect processor.

Yeah, but I've never used a tape machine as an effect processor, really.
Only as a production machine. So I can really only speak to that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Daniel Fox" wrote in message
oups.com...
maybe I am a litle nuts to want to keep and maintain a multi track
machine just as a special effects box. Thanks for the info Scott about
modern tape formulation and the 5050

Gareth Magennis wrote:
I'm not really that up on tape machines, but my gut feeling is that 2
tracks
may be more reliable and cheaper to run and maintain than multitracks?
Maybe someone can clarify this.

Well, we've got an Akai 1/4" 2 track Sound on Sound. If I can get the
appropriate tape for this machine maybe it would be better suited to my
purposes. Its alot smaller but it also only runs at 7 ips.

Dan Fox



Not sure how that would sound on an entire drum mix, you may want better
quality.


Gareth.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I don't know which 1" machine that is, since they made several matching
that description.

He's probalby thinking of their first, the 7800, but I believe Otrai
made 1" 8-track heads for the MX-70 and almost certainly for the 1"
MX-80.

I just checked it out - Its the 7800 with tape timer and remote control
boxes.

Also, I'm a doltz - the MX5050 i'm referring to is a 1/2" 2-track
machine... So with more space per track on the 2-track does that swing
the favor in its direction?

Dan Fox

Well Scott i'm pretty ignorant about this area. Upon further
inspection it is a Akai GX-4000DB. Its got 2 ins but the track
selector is switchable between stereo, 1&4, and 2&3. So I guess it is
quarter track. Does that mean that when in stereo mode it is using
1/8" per track or 1/16"? It does have Dolby NR, if that's any
indication of its age.

Thanks,

Dan Fox

Daniel Fox wrote:
Well Scott i'm pretty ignorant about this area. Upon further
inspection it is a Akai GX-4000DB. Its got 2 ins but the track
selector is switchable between stereo, 1&4, and 2&3. So I guess it is
quarter track. Does that mean that when in stereo mode it is using
1/8" per track or 1/16"? It does have Dolby NR, if that's any
indication of its age.

In either stereo OR mono mode, it is using about 1/24" per track. Figure
it's a quarter of a quarter inch, minus the guard band between tracks
that prevents crosstalk. Quarter track was another attempt to make tape
recording cheaper for consumer applications at a severe sound quality
expense.

These are definitely new machines from the post-Roberts era. I don't
think they can be set up for anything other than the JIS standard tapes,
which are no longer made. The service manual will tell you for sure,
though. It might be possible to modify for adjustable bias, but frankly
quarter track consumer machines aren't worth the time to pick them up
out of the dumpster.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In either stereo OR mono mode, it is using about 1/24" per track. Figure
it's a quarter of a quarter inch, minus the guard band between tracks
that prevents crosstalk. Quarter track was another attempt to make tape
recording cheaper for consumer applications at a severe sound quality
expense.

These are definitely new machines from the post-Roberts era. I don't
think they can be set up for anything other than the JIS standard tapes,
which are no longer made. The service manual will tell you for sure,
though. It might be possible to modify for adjustable bias, but frankly
quarter track consumer machines aren't worth the time to pick them up
out of the dumpster.

...unless you want to play back 1/4" consumer tapes, of course.
The Akai 4000 was one of the most successful domestic machines in the early
70s. The GX4000 variant is still quite desirable as it has the
glass-ferrite heads which supposedly do not wear out.

I wouldn't want to use one for production work, though.

--scott


--
JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=-
Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org
Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org
The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org
d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB----
uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)

Gareth Magennis wrote:
A friend of mine runs Protools and an Otari MTR 12, for exactly the same
reasons that you want. Its a half inch 2 track. The EQ cards have record
level adjustments for Bass, Mid and High, which he tweaks to get the
particular sound he is after, and he is really pleased with the results.
You may want to consider which machines out there have this capability and
which don't.

Never seen a pro tape machine, or MTR-12, with a "Mid" record or
playback level. You sure about that? Also, the "Bass" control is on
playback, not record. The lo record EQ is usually fixed, but adjustable
on playback.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

"EricK" wrote in message
...
Gareth Magennis wrote:
A friend of mine runs Protools and an Otari MTR 12, for exactly the same
reasons that you want. Its a half inch 2 track. The EQ cards have record
level adjustments for Bass, Mid and High, which he tweaks to get the
particular sound he is after, and he is really pleased with the results.
You may want to consider which machines out there have this capability
and which don't.

Never seen a pro tape machine, or MTR-12, with a "Mid" record or playback
level. You sure about that? Also, the "Bass" control is on playback, not
record. The lo record EQ is usually fixed, but adjustable on playback.

--


Well I'm just relaying what he told me. I actually got him to confirm at the
time that it had Bass Mid and High, because it seemed surprising to me too.
I'll check up on that though - he has the manual and full schematics.



Gareth.





Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

Gareth Magennis wrote:
"EricK" wrote in message
Never seen a pro tape machine, or MTR-12, with a "Mid" record or playback
level. You sure about that? Also, the "Bass" control is on playback, not
record. The lo record EQ is usually fixed, but adjustable on playback.

Well I'm just relaying what he told me. I actually got him to confirm at the
time that it had Bass Mid and High, because it seemed surprising to me too.
I'll check up on that though - he has the manual and full schematics.

Going from memory, I think that machine had a Hi-EQ pot for H-M-L.
H-M-L, related to hi speed, medium speed, and lo speed. That's probably
what you are referring to.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

EricK wrote:
Going from memory, I think that machine had a Hi-EQ pot for H-M-L.
H-M-L, related to hi speed, medium speed, and lo speed. That's probably
what you are referring to.

Yup, here's a picture of a card from one of those machines:
http://www.accessaudioservices.com/I...dio%20Card.jpg

It has "REPRO EQ" with an "H, M, L" pot and "REC EQ" with an "H-M-L"
pot. These are referring to playback and record Hi freq. EQ for high,
medium, and low, speeds.


--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

"EricK" wrote in message
...
EricK wrote:
Going from memory, I think that machine had a Hi-EQ pot for H-M-L. H-M-L,
related to hi speed, medium speed, and lo speed. That's probably what you
are referring to.

Yup, here's a picture of a card from one of those machines:
http://www.accessaudioservices.com/I...dio%20Card.jpg

It has "REPRO EQ" with an "H, M, L" pot and "REC EQ" with an "H-M-L" pot.
These are referring to playback and record Hi freq. EQ for high, medium,
and low, speeds.




Ah ha! C'mon Arnie, we need you to jump in here and explain about sighted
listening tests etc.



Gareth.

Gareth Magennis wrote:

Ah ha! C'mon Arnie, we need you to jump in here and explain about sighted
listening tests etc.

Ahhh...What? Not sure what this means??

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

"EricK" wrote in message
...
Gareth Magennis wrote:

Ah ha! C'mon Arnie, we need you to jump in here and explain about
sighted listening tests etc.

Ahhh...What? Not sure what this means??

--


Sorry, I meant that maybe my friend thought he was adjusting Bass, Mid and
Treble controls when clearly he wasn't. Arnie will gladly tell you all
about sighted listening tests vs AXB comparrisons, and that this is an
example of the flaws inherrent in the former.



Gareth.



Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

Gareth Magennis wrote:
Sorry, I meant that maybe my friend thought he was adjusting Bass, Mid and
Treble controls when clearly he wasn't. Arnie will gladly tell you all
about sighted listening tests vs AXB comparrisons, and that this is an
example of the flaws inherrent in the former.

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Download Our Multi-Track Masters
www.Raw-Tracks.com
www.Mad-Host.com

If you're using a tape machine as an "effect", try the cheaper Tascam
machines. Their 1/4 inch 8 track, 4 track cassette, 1/2 inch 8 track, 1/4
inch 4 track, etc. Many of the cheaper machines used IC's and transformers
that contributed to a subjectively "warm" and very pleasing sound. If you're
going for the saturation effect, then that will help overcome the added
noise of using the smaller tape formats.

My personal experience was that the smaller tape formats could sound
wonderful as an effect, where as the more professional formats ( like 1/2
inch 4 track, 1/2 inch 2 track, 1 inch 8 track, 1 inch 16 track machines,
etc.) had better transparency and less "effect". I suppose if you're simply
trying to isolate the sound of tape saturation, then that's a good way to
go, but some of the best percussion, guitar & bass tracks I've ever heard
were recorded on the "cheaper" formats, then bumped up to 2 inch or even
hard disk & vocals & other stuff added for the finished masterpiece! :-)

Schuyler
Austin, Tejas


"Daniel Fox" wrote in message
oups.com...
I know this a pretty vague question, but which do folks think is a
better sounding machine? Otari 1/2" 4-track (MX-5050) or Otari 1"
8-track (forgot the model # but its a big sucka on a rolling chassis
with input strips in a vertical panel. # of tracks is somewhat
irrelevant. I'm looking to use the machine as a tape saturation effect
(I won't use the w***th word) for individual instruments or drum
submixes.

Dan Fox

Daniel Fox wrote:

Also, I'm a doltz - the MX5050 i'm referring to is a 1/2" 2-track
machine... So with more space per track on the 2-track does that swing
the favor in its direction?


Could you be talking about an MTR-10 or MTR-12?