http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for 2003,
along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media. CD sales still
ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent increase in
sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003 Yearend Statistics"
report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3 million
discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make an
impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics (above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

Arny Krueger wrote:
http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for
2003, along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media.
CD sales still ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total
discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent
increase in sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003
Yearend Statistics" report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3
million discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics
(above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001 27,000
CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says that 756
million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even after what 3
or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

"Arny Krueger"

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for
2003, along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media.
CD sales still ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total
discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent
increase in sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003
Yearend Statistics" report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3
million discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics
(above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001 27,000
CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says that 756
million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even after what
3
or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?



** You really like to stick the boot in don't you - Arny ............
;-)





............ Phil

Phil Allison wrote:
"Arny Krueger"

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music
for 2003, along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded
media. CD sales still ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756
million total discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent
increase in sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003
Yearend Statistics" report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3
million discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics
(above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001
27,000 CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says
that 756 million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even
after what 3 or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

** You really like to stick the boot in don't you - Arny
............ ;-)

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear and
total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace, given more than enough time and investment.

"Arny Krueger"
Phil Allison wrote:


** You really like to stick the boot in don't you - Arny
............ ;-)

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear and
total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace, given more than enough time and investment.



** I take it that it is a *very encouraging* sign that the public can,
sometimes, tell a con when they see it.




.............. Phil

Now take into account the increase in the number of music downloads over the
last three years.




"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger"
Phil Allison wrote:


** You really like to stick the boot in don't you - Arny
............ ;-)

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear and
total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace, given more than enough time and investment.



** I take it that it is a *very encouraging* sign that the public can,
sometimes, tell a con when they see it.




............. Phil

Phil Allison wrote:
"Arny Krueger"
Phil Allison wrote:


** You really like to stick the boot in don't you - Arny
............ ;-)

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear
and total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace, given more than enough time and investment.



** I take it that it is a *very encouraging* sign that the public
can, sometimes, tell a con when they see it.

Naaa, it's more 'format overload'. Beside, isn't Apple confirming to the
masses that LoFi is where it's at ?

geoff

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:


,even after what 3 or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear and
total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace,

*given more than enough time and investment*. (emphasis mine)

Interesting time limit there. Were we to retroactively enforce the '3
year' rule on ultimate commercial viabilty, we'd be without trains,
cars, planes, telegraph, phone, radio, transistors, cell phones,
velveeta cheese, the internet, and, dare i say it, digital audio
itself.

OK, not entirely fair comparisons in every case there, as at least
half of the aforementioned were sustained further along than they
might have otherwise been by the military. For example, considering
the vast quantity of MRE's (meals ready to eat) needed to outfit an
army, the long term investment required to get some
cheese/starch/who-knows-what "product" up to some minimum level of
palatability for soldiers, at rock-bottom cost, saved millions of
dollars, which could then be used for even more productively
destructive purposes. The consumer variety,'Velveeta(tm)', with a few
tweaks and marketing spins, was a commercial bonanza, as a side
benefit. Given 3 years on it's own in the commercial market, however,
the 'cheese product' would never have made it.

On the other side of it, color photography, both the still and the
moving variety, took more than 3 years to become standard, as i
recall. As did digital photography, though i'm not sure that it's as
yet considered 'standard' by all professional photographers. By the
way, when are the top-flight cinematographers going to do away with 35
mm film and smell the silicon? If they just shot in digital, you could
get any shading/tone you wanted via DSP, plug-ins, etc., forget the
gel color for the lighting, or lens filters, or expensive high quality
lenses. People have been using digital video cameras at home by the
tens of thousands for more than 3 years now. When are those fools
going to catch up to the rest of us?

HDTV has been around for more than 3 years. What are the percentages
of sales there? Does it even matter? No, because it's been
legislatively mandated that that *will* be the standard, at some near
future date. With the usual emphasis, of course, being focused upon
bandwith cost considerations over ultimate video or audio quality,
thanks in large part to the yapping dog, ankle-biter, "nobody can hear
it anyway!, because *I* can't hear it!" faction.

In terms of either money or time, i can assure you that the investment
in DVD and SACD combined, both in technology and marketing, cannot
even begin to compare to the origional investment in digital
technology and red book CD's.

JF

"John Fowler" wrote in message
om...
mm film and smell the silicon? If they just shot in digital, you could
get any shading/tone you wanted via DSP, plug-ins, etc., forget the
gel color for the lighting, or lens filters, or expensive high quality
lenses.

For me personally when I'm given "unlimited power and options" it saps some
of my drive to be "creative". I like the problem solving aspect of it.

John Fowler wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:

,even after what 3 or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

I take it Phil, that you agree that these statistics signify a clear
and total failure of SACD & DVD-A to make a meaningful impact in the
marketplace,

*given more than enough time and investment*. (emphasis mine)

Yes, Consider the last two audio formats introduced into the same
marketplace with anything like equal fanfare and vigor. Specifically, the
audio CD and the A/V DVD. Within 3 years of introduction, either was a
runaway success.

Interesting time limit there. Were we to retroactively enforce the '3
year' rule on ultimate commercial viability, we'd be without trains,
cars, planes, telegraph, phone, radio, transistors, cell phones,
Velveeta cheese, the internet, and, dare i say it, digital audio
itself.

Are you seriously claiming that SACD and DVD-A are technological advances
that should be directly compared with trains, cars, planes, telegraph,
phone, radio, transistors, cell phones, the internet, and, digital audio
itself?

If so John, then you have absolutely no resistance to hype, and no
technological judgment whatsoever.

OK, not entirely fair comparisons in every case there, as at least
half of the aforementioned were sustained further along than they
might have otherwise been by the military.

It's not a fair comparison in *any* of the cases you mentioned, John except
of course the Velveeta.

Both SACD and DVD-A were basically simple repackaging jobs, entirely based
on existing technology.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for
2003, along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media.
CD sales still ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total
discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent
increase in sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003
Yearend Statistics" report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3
million discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make
an impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics
(above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001 27,000
CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says that 756
million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even after what 3
or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

I remember doing research for a company, in 1989 on HDTV. That's how
long the germination period of new technologies can be. There was a
ton of literature on it already and has just become available.


I don't think the bigs are entirely concerned about big numbers for
SACD and DVD-A yet. I think they believe one of these formats will
take over. I think the main thing will be for them to sell machines
capable of playing the formats and when a critical mass is achieved,
someone will leverage things and get one of the other to take off. Of
course, if current trends continue, they could all fold in favor of
AAC or something. Isn't the audio on DVD movies essentially AAC?

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

I don't think the bigs are entirely concerned about big numbers for SACD and
DVD-A yet. I think they believe one of these formats will take over.

They are very concerned. To date Sony (hardware) has been giving the majors a
fund to help develop titles in the SACD format. It was going to be last
holiday season make or break it but everyone decided to give the format a
little more time.

The cost to create the titles is expensive with sales being VERY slow.




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

In article ,
(EggHd) wrote:

I don't think the bigs are entirely concerned about big numbers for SACD
and
DVD-A yet. I think they believe one of these formats will take over.

They are very concerned. To date Sony (hardware) has been giving the majors
a
fund to help develop titles in the SACD format. It was going to be last
holiday season make or break it but everyone decided to give the format a
little more time.

How does the demise of the Sonoma project play into this?

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

How does the demise of the Sonoma project play into this?

I don't believe I know what this is.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Jay Kadis wrote:
In article ,
(EggHd) wrote:

I don't think the bigs are entirely concerned about big numbers for SACD
and
DVD-A yet. I think they believe one of these formats will take over.

They are very concerned. To date Sony (hardware) has been giving the majors
a
fund to help develop titles in the SACD format. It was going to be last
holiday season make or break it but everyone decided to give the format a
little more time.

How does the demise of the Sonoma project play into this?

What? What? The Sonoma is dead? Is that dead in terms of no more future
development or dead in terms of no more production at all? Either way is
very bad news for DSD.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

EggHd wrote:

I don't think the bigs are entirely concerned about big numbers
for SACD and DVD-A yet. I think they believe one of these formats
will take over.

They are very concerned.

I would hope. I had no idea that things were this bad.

To date Sony (hardware) has been giving the
majors a fund to help develop titles in the SACD format.

So the vastly greater number of titles for SACD was essentially bought.
There was no groundswell of demand...

It was
going to be last holiday season make or break it but everyone decided
to give the format a little more time.

This surprises me given what's been said about layoffs at Sony.

I figured that Sony would fund SACD as long as they were minting money with
Playstation and the like. But now they are getting heavy competition there,
as well. Sooner or later the thread that has been supporting SACD has to
break.

Given that SACD is at least on paper, the stronger format, when it goes down
it will probably take DVD-A with it.

The cost to create the titles is expensive with sales being VERY slow.

Production of new titles with average sales of under a thousand pieces per
title for either format can only continue with heavy subsidies. Thing is,
there are probably warehouses full of a lot more than a thousand discs per
SACD or DVD-A title, so there is quite a bit of money that has already been
spent.

However, merchandising and advertising money spent now, could easily be good
money following bad.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

[snip]


Given that SACD is at least on paper, the stronger format, when it goes down
it will probably take DVD-A with it.


I think the ability to produce a hybrid CD/SACD might confer an advantage on the
SACD format that DVD-A doesn't provide. I'm one of those who does buy SACDs,
but I prefer hybrid discs I can still play in the car to pure SACD releases.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

Arny Krueger wrote:

I figured that Sony would fund SACD as long as they were minting
money with Playstation and the like.

Considering it is likely the mind-numbing that Playstation and the likes are
part of, which is at least partially to blame for the reducton in consumer
appreciation of quality and value, that is quite a conundrum.

geoff

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...


Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

I'd guess that taking the mean here is going to be a bit misleading.
The vast majority of CDs that are released every year are on small
independent labels. Sales of a few thousand copies or less are faily
common. The average is skewed by the relative handful of titles that
get mainstream success and sell in the millions. The median might
actually be more useful a characterization but would require raw data
to calculate.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even after what 3
or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

One thing to keep in mind is that large scale adoption of CDs came
about as a result of strong arm tactics on the part of major labels.
Thousands of record stores were told beyond X date the labels would no
longer take returns on vinyl records. Not being able to afford to get
stuck with a bunch of product they couldn't return if it didn't move,
the stores pretty much had to switch. I don't remember how long a
time period the record stores had exactly after the announcement
before the no returns policy went into effect, but it seems like a lot
of shop owners got pretty screwed. The consumer didn't really get to
decide, and retailers faced extinction if they didn't comply.

I'm guessing that wide scale adoption of yet some other new format, in
a timeframe of under 10 years, will probably require similar muscle.
Does anybody really want that?

rossi

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Chris Rossi wrote:
I'd guess that taking the mean here is going to be a bit misleading.
The vast majority of CDs that are released every year are on small
independent labels. Sales of a few thousand copies or less are faily
common. The average is skewed by the relative handful of titles that
get mainstream success and sell in the millions. The median might
actually be more useful a characterization but would require raw data
to calculate.

But you have to remember that Arny's number was based on this industry
statistic:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001 27,000
CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says that 756
million CDs were sold in 2003.

I suspect that the 27,000 CD titles released in 2001 did not include
every independent release that sells typically in the hundreds at best.
I suspect that these numbers are only representative of the
RIAA-represented labels.

This suspicion is supported by the context of Arny's statistic:
"In 1999 38,900 individual titles were released in the US. The number
of releases fell by 30% by 2001 when only 27,000 titles were released."

Surely in the time period from 1999 to 2001, at the absolute pinnacle
of the cheap home-recording gear revolution, the number of
self-released titles woul have substantially increased, not decreased.
I have been saying for a while now that the RIAA deliberately excludes
data on these types of releases.

Still, your point is valid. For every triple-platinum smash hit the
majors release, they put out another several dozen albums that fail
miserably, or see modest sales at best. The numbers bear this out
easily. If you have even a few platinum album in the count, imagine
how poorly the other releases have to sell to get the average down to
28,000.

ulysses

I suspect that the 27,000 CD titles released in 2001 did not include
every independent release that sells typically in the hundreds at best.
I suspect that these numbers are only representative of the
RIAA-represented labels.

This number is supposed to represent all releases.

Remember regarding SACD/DAD-A releases... Most are catalog items that sell
very well in CD format already.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

A.K. is just on an anti-fidelity kick. go to his pcv website and see
his "keychain recorded 5 times stuff". From what I have assimilated,
it seems that Arny thinks that pro-sumer is just fine, and the
high-ticket esoteric stuff from a production standpoint (and I guess
now from a consumer playback standpoint) is a bunch of hogwash.

xy wrote:

A.K. is just on an anti-fidelity kick. go to his pcv website and see
his "keychain recorded 5 times stuff". From what I have assimilated,
it seems that Arny thinks that pro-sumer is just fine, and the
high-ticket esoteric stuff from a production standpoint (and I guess
now from a consumer playback standpoint) is a bunch of hogwash.

He does have a point. :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

xy wrote:

A.K. is just on an anti-fidelity kick.

You've got your facts backward. I very much favor high fidelity.

go to his pcv website and see
his "keychain recorded 5 times stuff".

You've got that wrong, too. The PCAVTech web site is about technical tests
of audio gear, there are no keychain recordings there at all.

From what I have assimilated,
it seems that Arny thinks that pro-sumer is just fine,

I'm in favor of that which works well, regardless of price or presumed
reputation.

and the high-ticket esoteric stuff from a production standpoint (and I
guess
now from a consumer playback standpoint) is a bunch of hogwash.

You've got that part wrong as well. Please come back when you get your
facts straight.

this is the site i'm talking about:
http://64.41.69.21/product/santa_cruz/index.htm,
relating to: http://www.pcabx.com/product/

i interpreted the purpose of these tests was to imply that "hey a
prosumer card is just fine, look you can record in and out of it 10
times in a row without undue suffering from the audio".

in all seriousness, is there a different "message" we're supposed to
be getting from that site?

xy wrote:
this is the site i'm talking about:

http://64.41.69.21/product/santa_cruz/index.htm,
relating to: http://www.pcabx.com/product/

i interpreted the purpose of these tests was to imply that "hey a
prosumer card is just fine, look you can record in and out of it 10
times in a row without undue suffering from the audio".

Then you didn't actually try to listen, right?

More to the point, if you had actually listened, you'd probably get a vastly
different message than the one you presumed.

However, I can't predict exactly what message you'd get if you did listen,
because a lot would depend on what you personally thought was "undue
suffering".

in all seriousness, is there a different "message" we're supposed to
be getting from that site?

Absolutely.

I try to, where ever possible, avoid telling people what they are supposed
to hear. I want people to listen for themselves and hear what even it is
that they hear, because then it is more relevant to them.

However, I did recently let the some of the proverbial cat out of the bag
w/r/t my interpretation of the soundcard tests at the PCABX site. This was
in the context of a discussion of the possible audible performance of an
interface that in fact, I've never tested.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=j6...%40comcast.com

"In the case of equipment that I consider substandard, such as the legacy
SoundBlaster Live! card tested, looping the test signals just once was
sufficient to provide clear audible indications of sonic coloration.

"In the case of other consumer audio equipment such as the Turtle Beach
Santa
Cruz (TBSC) , one pass had few if any audible effects, but the effects of 5
passes can be heard . This is arguably "good enough" performance for
situations where production is entirely in the digital domain. It may leave
something to be desired when there are a number of generations of
conversions between the analog and digital domain. It also does not really
suit the critical production worker who wants "bulletproof" equipment and
results, and is willing to pay more to get it.

"In the case a high quality audio interface such as the DAL Card Deluxe
(DALCD), even large amounts of repetitive looping did not produce clearly
audible effects. This level of performance means that numerous
analog/digital and digital.analog conversions will not result in audible
degradation due to this high quality audio interface. I think this suits the
actual technical needs of most critical workers.

"Exactly where the ADA8000 fits on this scale of sonic quality from the
legacy SoundBlaster Live! to the Card Deluxe and beyond (e.g. LynxTWO), is
one of those things that actual listening would show.

"On paper, the ADA8000 results appear to be some place between those of the
TBSC and DALCD. Other interfaces that fit in this range include the widely
used M-Audio AudioPhile 2496.

I think that this recent discussion paints a very different picture from:

"From what I have assimilated,
it seems that Arny thinks that pro-sumer is just fine, and the
high-ticket esoteric stuff from a production standpoint (and I guess
now from a consumer playback standpoint) is a bunch of hogwash."

First off, I really don't see a Live! or TBSC as "prosumer". I see it as
being very solidy a consumer product. If it is used for audio production,
this would be under duress. It's one of those "surprisingly good, all things
considered" products. I see the TBSC as being a good example of a consumer
audio inerface, and the legacy Live! as being a bad example.

To me, the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 might be a "prosumer" card. However,
Google is full of comments relating to my reservations about it as a
prosumer card. I think my reasoning is pretty straight-forward, as it is
incapable of handling standard audio production levels. In the M-Audio line
the Delta 4 & 66 are pro-sumer cards. They handle standard production levels
but despite the TRS jacks, they have unbalanced I/O.

Instead, I prefer the Echo Mia as a fully "prosumer" card. It will handle
standard audio production levels, but (is there an echo in the room?)
despite the TRS jacks, it lacks balanced I/O. The M-Audio 1010LT is similar,
only with more channels and no TRS jacks. But, where the rubber hits the
road, they are comparable, except for the number of channels.

Now we move on to the DALCD. I don't think this is a prosumer card. I think
it ts solidly in the pro audio category. Not only does it have TRS jacks
like the three pretenders I just mentioned, but it also has fully balanced
I/O. BTW, I own two of them for my personal work. I don't think that there
is any evidence there that I think true pro audio cards like the DALCD are
hogwash.

I consider the LynxTWO to be a true high-end product - due to its nearly
unending performance reserves. It's almost an order of magnitude better than
the DALCD. But you should be very hard put to find any statements by me
suggesting that the LynxTWO is hogwash. It's simply a very, very good
outperformer.

I also think that this discussion of audio production interfaces is
off-topic in the midst a discussion of consumer distribution formats. Two
different sets of requirements.

To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001 27,000
CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says that 756
million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even after what 3
or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

You're comparing the total number of DVDA/SACD titles available to the
number of CD's released in one year...if you multiply that by twenty
years, you come out with 1350 copies average per CD title. I know
that's not likely very accurage, but it certainly shows how your
figures may be considerably skewed...

-Duardo

"Duardo" wrote in message
om
To put the sub-1,000 sales per SACD and DVD tiltle into perspective:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4352.cfm claims that in 2001
27,000 CD titles were released (most recent data I could find)

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html says
that 756 million CDs were sold in 2003.

Doing the math:

About 28,000 copies per average CD title.

Reviewing, less than 1,000 copies per DVD-A or SACD title, even
after what 3 or more years of trying to push the formats.

Is this what a market failure looks like?

You're comparing the total number of DVDA/SACD titles available to the
number of CD's released in one year.

Wrong.

28,000 is the number of new CD titles released during that one year. If you
look at the tabulations, you will see that the statistic is not cumulative.
It is not for new titles released in more than one year.

The peak year for new releases was 1994 with 36,600 new releases. The next
year, 30,200 new titles were released.

Nice try!

"Duardo" wrote in message
You're comparing the total number of DVDA/SACD titles available to the
number of CD's released in one year.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Wrong.

28,000 is the number of new CD titles released during that one year. If you
look at the tabulations, you will see that the statistic is not cumulative.
It is not for new titles released in more than one year.

The peak year for new releases was 1994 with 36,600 new releases. The next
year, 30,200 new titles were released.


He's got a point though, Arny. You calculated an average CD sales of
28,000 units based on the 27,000 CDs released in one years (2001) and
756 million CDs sold in a year (2003). The problem is that not all of
the 756 million CDs sold in 2003 were titles released in 2003, or in
2001, or in any particular year. The 756 million CDs sold were among
all the titles released over the past 20 years. Who knows what portion
of those 756 million sales were new releases. Certainly less than
100%. So the average per release must be less than the 28,000 you
calculated. How much less? I don't know. How many copies of Dark
Side of the Moon and the White Album sold in 2003?

ulysses

"Justin Ulysses Morse" wrote in message
m
"Duardo" wrote in message
You're comparing the total number of DVDA/SACD titles available to
the number of CD's released in one year.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Wrong.

28,000 is the number of new CD titles released during that one
year. If you look at the tabulations, you will see that the
statistic is not cumulative. It is not for new titles released in
more than one year.

The peak year for new releases was 1994 with 36,600 new releases.
The next year, 30,200 new titles were released.

He's got a point though, Arny.

True, I misread his statement.

You calculated an average CD sales of
28,000 units based on the 27,000 CDs released in one years (2001) and
756 million CDs sold in a year (2003). The problem is that not all of
the 756 million CDs sold in 2003 were titles released in 2003, or in
2001, or in any particular year.

True.

The 756 million CDs sold were among
all the titles released over the past 20 years. Who knows what
portion of those 756 million sales were new releases. Certainly less
than 100%. So the average per release must be less than the 28,000
you calculated. How much less? I don't know. How many copies of
Dark Side of the Moon and the White Album sold in 2003?

In the case of DSOTM, I believe it was remastered in 2003, and therefore was
a new title, right? (who can count all the the times DSOTM was remastered?)
But, the last remastering of the White Album seems to be 1998.

I agree that the copies per title part of the comparison was not valid.
However, if you extrapolate, and compare one years sales of CDs to 3 years
worth of new titles, the sales per title would be more like 7,000 per new
title which still about 10 times the numbers for SACD and DVD-A.

Exactly...I wasn't contesting that there were 28,000 CD's released in
one year (or 27,000 as you said). What I was contesting was that you
said that since there were 27,000 CD's released in one year, and that
there 756,000,000 CD's sold in one year, that the average number sold
per title was 28,000 (which is 756 million divided by 27 thousand).
You'd have to figure it out based on the total number of CD's
available. I guessed that there were approximately 540,000 titles
available (based on an average of 27,000 over the course of twenty
years...which may not be so far off the mark if it peaked at 36,600 in
1994), so your 756 million CD's sold in one year would have to be
divided by the 540 thousand titles available, not the 27 thousand
titles that came out in one year. And that comes out to and average
of 1350 copies of each title. You did base your figures for the DVDA
and SACD on the total number of titles available, correct?

-Duardo

Arny Krueger wrote:

Wrong.

28,000 is the number of new CD titles released during that one year. If you
look at the tabulations, you will see that the statistic is not cumulative.
It is not for new titles released in more than one year.

The peak year for new releases was 1994 with 36,600 new releases. The next
year, 30,200 new titles were released.


He's got a point though, Arny. You calculated an average CD sales of
28,000 units based on the 27,000 CDs released in one years (2001) and
756 million CDs sold in a year (2003). The problem is that not all of
the 756 million CDs sold in 2003 were titles released in 2003, or in
2001, or in any particular year. The 756 million CDs sold were among
all the titles released over the past 20 years. Who knows what portion
of those 756 million sales were new releases. Certainly less than
100%. So the average per release must be less than the 28,000 you
calculated. How much less? I don't know. How many copies of Dark
Side of the Moon and the White Album sold in 2003?

ulysses

In article writes:

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

Sure. The people who make DVD players.

The music on DVD format that's selling (and I didn't see a statistic
for this) is that which provides additional text and graphic content
and makes it different from the CD release in ways other than higher
resolution and perhaps more careful mastering.

I think that sluggish sales of just plain audio on DVD media is
indicitive of the conjecture that most listeners don't spend more
money for higher audio quality. It remains a niche market, just as the
Mobile Fidelity vinyl disks back in their day.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Arny Krueger wrote:

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics (above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

Maybe, IF the cost of the recording and most of the mastering are already
subsidized by the CD issue. Same goes for LP or any other niche format.

But we won't know the truth until the one recording that everybody has got
to have is available on SACD or DVD-A only.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

This is why Sony has a fund. Many of these titles are remixed in 5.1 and there
is mastering and Authoring costs to consider.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Arny Krueger wrote:

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

Home and pro studios are using DVD-A as a primary high-res audio storage
and distribution format. We can record DVD-As using recordable DVDs on
plain old PCs using Minnetonka Audio's discWelder Bronze, Steel and
Chrome products and almost any commercial DVD burner. discWelder Bronze
retails for $99.

So DVD-A probably has a future in the recording world, if not the mass
market music distribution world.

In contrast, SACD was designed by the mass market recording industry
specifically to be a distribution-only format that is difficult or
impossible to copy on a PC using mass market optical media burners.
This makes it a useless format for recording professionals and amateurs.
May it die a quick death.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:00:41 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for 2003,
along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media. CD sales still
ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent increase in
sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003 Yearend Statistics"
report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3 million
discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make an
impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics (above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?

Why should anyone buy anything other than a CD, after two decades
of being told, and fully believing (especially compared to LP's played
on that ubiquitous Garrard four-speed) that CD's are perfect? Are
these other formats "better than perfect?"

While I'm here, what are the DVD-A formats? I recall from years ago
that there are several formats, probably even several for DVD video
(at least 5.1, stereo, mono, perhaps the last two derived from the
5.1?). If I buy a DVD-A, do I know the number of channels, sample rate
and bit depth? Are there several versions (stereo, 6-channel,
what-not) of the program material on a DVD-A?
Maybe I'm like a lot of other people, I'm not buying DVD-A until I
know what it is. (I know what SACD is, and I read glowing reports on
RAP a year or two ago, but I still don't "need" it) I haven't even
seen or head a commercial for DVD-A - at least back in the mid-late
'80's I recall a stupid radio commercial saying something about a
"clear signal" - it was for DCC (!).

Is HDCD still around???
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:27:23 -0400, Ben Bradley
wrote:

If I buy a DVD-A, do I know the number of channels, sample rate
and bit depth?

If they say so on the box or your player can display the information.

Are there several versions (stereo, 6-channel,
what-not) of the program material on a DVD-A?

Sometimes.

Maybe I'm like a lot of other people, I'm not buying DVD-A until I
know what it is.

It is a format with some flexibility in terms of resolution (up to
24/192 in stereo, up to 24/96 in MCH), formats (PCM, MLP as well as
compatible DD, DTS are options), and number of channels (1-6, afaik).

Is HDCD still around???

Sorta. Owned by Microsoft now.

Kal

"Ben Bradley"
wrote:

Is HDCD still around???

It's a Microsoft thing. There is some hardware support, usually combines
with wma-cd support, but let's just say that the whole adventure isn't
exactly MS's finest hour.

jb

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...dvda_sacd.html

"The RIAA has recently released a sales report for recorded music for
2003,
along with comparisons to years past, for all recorded media. CD sales
still
ruled supreme in 2003, with nearly 756 million total discs sold.

"DVD-Audio sales remained stagnant in 2003, with a 0.08 percent increase
in
sales to approximately 400,000, says the RIAA's "2003 Yearend Statistics"
report.

"SACD sales were tracked for the first time in 2003, showing 1.3 million
discs sold during the year.

After more than enough years (at least 3) for DVD-A and SACD to make an
impression on the marketplace:

SACD market share is 1.3 / 756 or 0.17%

DVD-A market share is 0.4 / 756 0.065%

There are said to currently be about 2000 SACD titles.

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16666776

The average SACD title sold about 650 copies, per RIAA statistics (above).

There are said to currently be about 730 DVD-A titles.

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?fo...temaid=1935829

The average DVD-A title therefore sold about 548 copies, per RIAA
statistics (above).

Can anybody be making money with sales like these?



I'm puzzled as to why more dvd players don't support dvd-a. If they did,
more people might buy the discs.

jb

"reddred" wrote in message
news:G8udnfl5qaRUx1PdRVn-

I'm puzzled as to why more dvd players don't support dvd-a. If they did,
more people might buy the discs.

Who owns the IP and royalty stream for DVD-A?

Glenn D.