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  #161   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:44:44 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Jay - atldigi" wrote in message


It can remove distortion but the error still exists as broadband
noise.


Well, we call it noise but in fact it's 100% deterministic given that we
created the randomizing signal so we should know what it is.


And to make the whole thing even soupier, dither can theoretically
be removed after DAC, decorrelating quantization errors and
leaving noise that's statistically independent of the signal.

IMO, there's a lot of etymological weirdness in this area. Quantization
error is often called quantization noise. Spectral shaping of quantization
error is commonly called "noise shaping". Quantization error is noisy, but
it's noisy in the sense that loud neighbors are *noisy*. It's not noise in
the sense of random noise, because quantization error is 100% predictable.


Definitely a "through the looking glass" world because we have to rely
on words.

Thanks for your comments,

Chris Hornbeck
"That is my Theory, and what it is too."
Anne Elk
  #162   Report Post  
Jay - atldigi
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain

In article , "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


I think Chris probably knew this but chose the wrong word.


Could be. But the point needs to be clearly made.


No argument there. Just trying to be polite while infomative. I believe
that counts for something, though much of the internet seems to disagree.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com
  #163   Report Post  
Jay - atldigi
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain

In article , Chris Hornbeck
wrote:

And to make the whole thing even soupier, dither can theoretically
be removed after DAC


If you're talking about subtractive dither, that's pretty impractical
after the DAC because you need to know exactly what the dither signal
was and reproduce it precisely, but inverted. Dither needs to be random
(or pseudo-random) by it's very nature which makes the technique quite
challenging under non-labratory conditions. How will the CD player at
Joe Schmoe's house know what dither you used? If you were to include a
key or "antidote" with the recording, the encoding of the dither
"antidote" eat quite a bit of storage space (it would be continuous
alongside the audio), and of course you'd need new hardware that
supported the subtractive technique and could make use of that
"antidote". We won't even get into the potential production problems
when you start editing and processing. The technique is more practical
if used in an ADC where the designer has control over it as a closed
system, but even there I'm not aware of a practical example in
widespread use in audio production.

If that's not what you were referring to, then just think of this as an
interesting (or not so interesting) aside...

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com
  #164   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:44:44 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Jay - atldigi" wrote in message


It can remove distortion but the error still exists as broadband
noise.


Well, we call it noise but in fact it's 100% deterministic given
that we created the randomizing signal so we should know what it is.


And to make the whole thing even soupier, dither can theoretically
be removed after DAC, decorrelating quantization errors and
leaving noise that's statistically independent of the signal.


Yes. Some of the Vanderkooy & Lip****z papers treat this. Apparently this
possibility was exciting to some people for a while.

IMO, there's a lot of etymological weirdness in this area.
Quantization error is often called quantization noise. Spectral
shaping of quantization error is commonly called "noise shaping".
Quantization error is noisy, but it's noisy in the sense that loud
neighbors are *noisy*. It's not noise in the sense of random noise,
because quantization error is 100% predictable.


Definitely a "through the looking glass" world because we have to rely
on words.


I suspect that some of these word choices made more sense at some time in
the past.

Thanks for your comments,


back at ya!

;-)



  #165   Report Post  
Tommi
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain


"Jay - atldigi" wrote in message
...
In article , "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


I think Chris probably knew this but chose the wrong word.


Could be. But the point needs to be clearly made.


No argument there. Just trying to be polite while infomative. I believe
that counts for something, though much of the internet seems to disagree.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com



But not everyone!




  #166   Report Post  
Jay - atldigi
 
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Default 16 bit vs 24 bit, 44.1khz vs 48 khz <-- please explain

In article , "Tommi"
wrote:

to be polite while infomative. I believe that counts for
something, though much of the internet seems to disagree.


But not everyone!


As evidenced in this thread. There's hope yet!

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com
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