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#1
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Neither are really suitable. I suppose if you had 4 video cables going somewhere useful you could use the screens as + and - for 2 channels. Graham |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"GoPack" wrote in message
... I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? I would think that both can. The Cat5 is better. It has 8 wires in it. Choose two for left +, two for left -, two for right +, and two for right -, so that for each of the 4 wires you actually need, you are using 2 wires in parallel. This is not ideal speaker wire for extremely high-power speakers, but it may well meet your needs. The video coax can also be used as speaker cable (one speaker). |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. this type of solid wire wont take many flexes before it breaks. i suppose if you connect regular speaker wire to it at the box on the wall sound should come out OK when you hook up the speakers and amps. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
TimPerry wrote: GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Graham |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote: GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Graham even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
TimPerry wrote: Pooh Bear wrote: TimPerry wrote: GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Graham even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems. Not true actually but in any event hardly the point. Graham |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Sure it's easy: go buy some 12 gauge speaker cable of the appropriate length, use electrical tape to attach it to the installed video cable, then pull the coax until the 12 gauge speaker appears. You've now converted it to suitable speaker cable. Seriously, neither wire appropriate for speaker level signals. It might be passible for very low level background level, but not for any kind of foreground application. However, the cat 5 cable is usable for distributing line level audio signals, so you could buy self powered speakers and use the cat5 to get the signal to them if you don't want to run new wires through the walls. //Walt |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
In article , "TimPerry" wrote:
GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. this type of solid wire wont take many flexes before it breaks. i suppose if you connect regular speaker wire to it at the box on the wall sound should come out OK when you hook up the speakers and amps. That gives 21 gauge wire. It is much better when you just connect one speaker to one cable, giving 18 gauge, however I have reservations about the CAT3 or 5 or whatever, connectors, having low enough resistance. Twisting the raw cable eliminates this, but solid wire breaks easily. greg |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
In , on 06/05/06
at 12:38 AM, GoPack said: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Neither of these wires make particularly effective speaker wires, but you could "make do" (at reduced performance levels) with either. By switching from a traditional central amplifier based technology to a newer, computer networked approach, you can use the cat-5 wire to connect individual room systems back to a central music server. With this approach each room has its own amplifier and speaker wire is almost eliminated. One such approach can be found at sonos.com. Another fairly well developed system is available from Yamaha. In my opinion this is the wave of the future for whole house audio. You can get on the wagon now or later. Very different, but still appropriate for cat-5 is the "A-bus" system. (Cat-5 is on the edge for A-bus -- use a home run of cat-5 for each room.) ----------------------------------------------------------- spam: wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15 13 (Barry Mann) [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox] ----------------------------------------------------------- |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess
do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Well, maybe. The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet. So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
mc wrote: cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Well, maybe. The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet. So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system. A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say 100 milliohms. Graham |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Pooh Bear spake thus:
mc wrote: cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Well, maybe. The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet. So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system. A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say 100 milliohms. Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of such resistance? What bad things would happen? My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD. -- Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa. This is an inviolable rule. - Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm) |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote: A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say 100 milliohms. Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of such resistance? What bad things would happen? My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD. I believe it depends to some extent on the speaker in question. For a speaker with a near-constant impedance, what you suggest is probably true. You'd need to turn up the volume a bit to compensate for the loss of signal in the wire's resistance, but that'd be about it. For a speaker with a highly variable impedance-vs.-frequency curve, the effects could be more significant. The wire's impedance could reduce the output significantly at those frequencies where the speaker's impedance is near its minimum, while having very little effect on the output at frequencies where the impedance is at a maximum. This could, in some cases, result in an audible change in the speaker's frequency response. Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others. Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Dave Platt spake thus:
Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe superconducters.) For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference. -- Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa. This is an inviolable rule. - Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm) |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
David Nebenzahl wrote: Pooh Bear spake thus: mc wrote: cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Well, maybe. The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet. So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system. A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say 100 milliohms. Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of such resistance? What bad things would happen? My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD. 2 things happen you haven't considered. 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. 2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration. Graham |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Dave Platt wrote: In article , David Nebenzahl wrote: A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say 100 milliohms. Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of such resistance? What bad things would happen? My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD. I believe it depends to some extent on the speaker in question. For a speaker with a near-constant impedance, what you suggest is probably true. You'd need to turn up the volume a bit to compensate for the loss of signal in the wire's resistance, but that'd be about it. For a speaker with a highly variable impedance-vs.-frequency curve, the effects could be more significant. The wire's impedance could reduce the output significantly at those frequencies where the speaker's impedance is near its minimum, while having very little effect on the output at frequencies where the impedance is at a maximum. This could, in some cases, result in an audible change in the speaker's frequency response. Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others. Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. You are quite correct. Whatever the merits of Cat5 it sure isn't capable of being a hi-fi speaker cable. Graham |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
David Nebenzahl wrote: Dave Platt spake thus: Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe superconducters.) For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference. You really do talk out of your ass you know. Graham |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Pooh Bear spake thus:
David Nebenzahl wrote: Dave Platt spake thus: Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe superconducters.) For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference. You really do talk out of your ass you know. Well, you know, "Pooh Bear", it really depends on what one's using the wiring for, correct? So why don't we ask the O.P., OK. So, O.P., tell us: what quality of speakers and other equipment were you planning on hooking up in your house? How big an issue is sound quality to you? And how about this: have you considering experimenting, trying the wiring first to see how it works? As long as you keep the volume to a reasonable level, you needn't worry about burning up the wiring. Let's let him (or her) tell us whether it might be adequate. -- Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa. This is an inviolable rule. - Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm) |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote: Pooh Bear wrote: TimPerry wrote: GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Graham even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems. Not true actually but in any event hardly the point. Graham there is a wonderful system known as 70 volt (somtimes 100 volt or an older type 25 volt audio. this involve step up and step down transformers at each end of the wire. the advantage is you can parallel all the wires in the house together and put speakers in every room of the house all on the same audio amplifier. AND it eliminates most or all the issues that Graham is concerned about. 'course if wont be true hifi to a purest... the the PO only said "speakers".... |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:16 +0200, Peter Larsen
wrote: mc wrote: The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's using them doubled up. It goes to the loudspeaker and back. Had you read on, you'd have noticed that he said you need two wires, so you're back to 25 ohms. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:37:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote: Dave Platt spake thus: Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe superconducters.) Typical childish hyperbole - you have to run 400 feet of 1 gauge to get to 100 milliohms loop resistance. For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference. Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Walt" wrote in message ... Sure it's easy: go buy some 12 gauge speaker cable of the appropriate length, use electrical tape to attach it to the installed video cable, then pull the coax until the 12 gauge speaker appears. You've now converted it to suitable speaker cable. Seriously, neither wire appropriate for speaker level signals. It might be passible for very low level background level, but not for any kind of foreground application. However, the cat 5 cable is usable for distributing line level audio signals, so you could buy self powered speakers and use the cat5 to get the signal to them if you don't want to run new wires through the walls. So you think a long length of unshielded wire is OK for line level signals? Probably close to power cables as well! I'd go with pulling some new wire or use what's there as speaker cable instead. Maybe you could use the cat5 or coax to distribute digital signals though, and use D-A converters at the other end, if cost is not an issue. MrT. |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others. Only a couple of dB at worst, unlikely to hear it without a direct comparison. However the speaker Q can also be affected which *may* be more audible. Whether this change in frequency response will be significant, audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not... but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very well make the difference between an acceptable install and an unacceptable one. And we still don't know why he doesn't just try it and decide that for himself! MrT. |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers. That's going from one extreme to the other! To say that 3 ohms (quite high for just about any house run) *may* give a couple of dB variation and thus be audible, is one thing, but to claim you HAVE to go as low as 100 milliohm is stretching your credibility. Zero ohms is lovely and all that, but you're not likely to pick much less than one ohm without an A/B direct comparison, in the *majority* of cases. And less than one ohm is not hard to achieve. Also I doubt he has perfect speakers to start with, extra resistance will even improve some of them! MrT. |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 2 things happen you haven't considered. 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You mean slightly reduced. 2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration. Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) MrT. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
TimPerry wrote: Pooh Bear wrote: TimPerry wrote: Pooh Bear wrote: TimPerry wrote: GoPack wrote: I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? Thanks SM cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar with it. see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5. for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color pair. that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left - and so on. The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker cable. Graham even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems. Not true actually but in any event hardly the point. Graham there is a wonderful system known as 70 volt (somtimes 100 volt or an older type 25 volt audio. this involve step up and step down transformers at each end of the wire. the advantage is you can parallel all the wires in the house together and put speakers in every room of the house all on the same audio amplifier. AND it eliminates most or all the issues that Graham is concerned about. 'course if wont be true hifi to a purest... the the PO only said "speakers".... 70 or 100 volt lines are shockingly poor quality on account of the transformers. Graham |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Mr.T" wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers. That's going from one extreme to the other! To say that 3 ohms (quite high for just about any house run) *may* give a couple of dB variation and thus be audible, is one thing, but to claim you HAVE to go as low as 100 milliohm is stretching your credibility. 100 milliohms is simply good practice. Graham |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Mr.T" wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 2 things happen you haven't considered. 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback is taken from. You mean slightly reduced. More than slightly. 2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration. Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say whether it will be worse anyway. Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms ! I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) You can never tell. Graham |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 100 milliohms is simply good practice. Not what was claimed. And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way? MrT. |
#32
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback is taken from. Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way. You mean slightly reduced. More than slightly. Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures! Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms ! Never said they were. We are just arguing over how much affect there will be. I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) You can never tell. Of course you can, *IF* the OP tells us. I'm betting he will never own such a pair, let alone wire them with cat5. Which way are you betting? MrT. |
#33
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Mr.T" wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 100 milliohms is simply good practice. Not what was claimed. Pardon ? Can you elaborate ? And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way? I chose it thank you very much. Graham |
#34
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Mr.T" wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback is taken from. Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way. I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of thinking you can simply lump in the cable resistance with the speaker impedance. You mean slightly reduced. More than slightly. Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures! Even with only 100 milliohms of cable the damping factor might be easily halved. Probably more. Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms ! Never said they were. We are just arguing over how much affect there will be. Ok. Let's take 3 ohms of cable and a nominal 8 ohm speaker with impedance that varies from 5 ohms to 40 ohms for example. That adds about +/- 2dB which isn't insignificant. I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) You can never tell. Of course you can, *IF* the OP tells us. I'm betting he will never own such a pair, let alone wire them with cat5. Which way are you betting? I assumed you were just 'making a point'. A decent pair of $400 dollar speakers will be affected just as much. Graham |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback is taken from. Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way. I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of thinking you can simply lump in the cable resistance with the speaker impedance. Care to explain exactly what it is you are claiming, and a reference of any sort. You mean slightly reduced. More than slightly. Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures! Even with only 100 milliohms of cable the damping factor might be easily halved. Probably more. Care to give us the formula you used to calculate that, or a reference of any sort? Ok. Let's take 3 ohms of cable and a nominal 8 ohm speaker with impedance that varies from 5 ohms to 40 ohms for example. That adds about +/- 2dB which isn't insignificant. But is much less than most speaker frequency response variations. Even the $100,000 ones. I assumed you were just 'making a point'. A decent pair of $400 dollar speakers will be affected just as much. Is there any such thing as a decent pair of $400 speakers? There are certainly none with less than +/- 2dB frequency response variation! MrT. |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 100 milliohms is simply good practice. Not what was claimed. Pardon ? Can you elaborate ? Which word are you unsure about? And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way? I chose it thank you very much. That explains it then. MrT. |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"GoPack" wrote in message
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how? There is such a thing as RG6 Coax with an 18 gauge solid copper center core. The shield usually has a similar or lower resistance. 18 gauge speaker wire is kinda crappy, but it beats nothing. Trouble is that a lot of RG 6 does not have a solid copper center core. The copperweld (copper over steel) cored RG6 is more like 24 gauge, which is very, very crappy speaker wire. If you know what you are doing, one can tell the difference between copperweld and solid copper by its stiffness. If you want to be sure, sand the end of the wire on an angle, and you will be able to see the steel core if it is there. If you tie all 8 24 gauge wires in a piece of CAT5 cable together, you have roughly the equivalent of a 13 gauge copper wire. Two of these make a pretty fair piece of speaker cable. If you tie the 24 gauge wires in CAT5 into two groups, you have roughly the equivalent of a 18 gauge copper cable. Not real good, but again way ahead of nothing. The cable will have higher capacitance than normal speaker wire. |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 2 things happen you haven't considered. 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You mean slightly reduced. Agreed. This is one reason why the term "damping factor" is such a crock. Typical speakers are highly inefficient which among other things means that the mechanical parts of the speaker work pretty much the same regardless of the source impedance for the voice coil. IOW, the Q of the mechanical resonance of a woofer is pretty much the same no matter how you drive its voice coil. The voice coil is only loosly coupled to the woofer cone by the magnetic field. This is implicit in most means that are used to estimate the mechanical and electrical Q of a driver for measurements of Thiel-Small parameters. If you measure the impedance curve of a woofer with a constant current source or a low impedance source, the results are very similar. 2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration. Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) Agreed. The frequency response differences observed with low damping factor amplifiers are mostly due to the impedance curve of the speaker interacting with the high output impedance of the amplifier. The impedance curve of the speaker is relatively unchanged. IOW differences are on the order of like 1%. |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message "Mr.T" wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback is taken from. Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way. I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of thinking you can simply lump in the cable resistance with the speaker impedance. Ken Kantor made that *mistake* when he designed his NHTPro speakers a few years back. My friend Dave Clark has made the same *mistake* in some of his system designs. Of course, it is no mistake! Ken Kantor and Dave Clark have literally forgotten more about speakers than... ;-) |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Advice on speaker wire needed.
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... 2 things happen you haven't considered. 1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound. No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You mean slightly reduced. Agreed. This is one reason why the term "damping factor" is such a crock. Typical speakers are highly inefficient which among other things means that the mechanical parts of the speaker work pretty much the same regardless of the source impedance for the voice coil. IOW, the Q of the mechanical resonance of a woofer is pretty much the same no matter how you drive its voice coil. The voice coil is only loosly coupled to the woofer cone by the magnetic field. Do you really mean this a stated? In all the 'speakers I've seen, the voice coil is glued to the coil former, and the former is rigidly attached to the cone, consequently, any movement of the voice coil is transmitted directly to the cone. This is implicit in most means that are used to estimate the mechanical and electrical Q of a driver for measurements of Thiel-Small parameters. If you measure the impedance curve of a woofer with a constant current source or a low impedance source, the results are very similar. Of course, as you are measuring the impedance curve of the woofer, so the method of drive is irrelevant as long as it is taken into consideration in the calculation. 2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration. Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-) Agreed. The frequency response differences observed with low damping factor amplifiers are mostly due to the impedance curve of the speaker interacting with the high output impedance of the amplifier. The impedance curve of the speaker is relatively unchanged. IOW differences are on the order of like 1%. Why as much as 1%? The frequency response of the 'speaker can vary considerably if driven from a high source impedance, but the impedance of the 'speaker, I think, should be unchanged regardless of how driven. S. |
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