[Mike Rivers]

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is mutual) over on
another forum is claiming that he replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with
an IDE drive. Says "Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in."
I know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

This was part of a discussion about adding a floppy drive to a Mac in
order to create (Intel-bootable) Mackie hard disk recorder operating
system floppys. The guy with the HDR has a USB floppy but apparently it
won't create a bootable floppy disk. He was told that only a Firewire or
IDE floppy will do that (I dunno why but that's not the point). So he
was advised to get an IDE floppy drive.

I've never heard of such a thing. Is there a floppy with an IDE (40 pin
ribbon) connector on it that was made just for Macs? I suspect that what
the wise guy left out was the part about using a new cable on the IDE
drive and connecting it to an IDE port (assuming the G4 has one). But
I've never been inside a Mac and I don't know about these mysteries.






--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is mutual) over on
another forum is claiming that he replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with
an IDE drive. Says "Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in."
I know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

This was part of a discussion about adding a floppy drive to a Mac in
order to create (Intel-bootable) Mackie hard disk recorder operating
system floppys. The guy with the HDR has a USB floppy but apparently it
won't create a bootable floppy disk. He was told that only a Firewire or
IDE floppy will do that (I dunno why but that's not the point). So he
was advised to get an IDE floppy drive.

Hmmm... If it was to make a Mac-bootable install, maybe so, but I don't
see why it couldn't write the code required to boot something else.
Sometimes (IIRC) whether or not one can get Mac-boot ability depends on
firmware in the outboard drive, and whether or not it's what the Mac
recognizes are a legit source for bootin'.

I've never heard of such a thing. Is there a floppy with an IDE (40 pin
ribbon) connector on it that was made just for Macs? I suspect that what
the wise guy left out was the part about using a new cable on the IDE
drive and connecting it to an IDE port (assuming the G4 has one). But
I've never been inside a Mac and I don't know about these mysteries.

If I were you I'd seek the answer to this in the DAW-Mac forum. If you
would rather not go there I could take your query there and get back to
you with the replies.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is mutual) over on
another forum is claiming that he replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with
an IDE drive. Says "Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in."
I know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

This was part of a discussion about adding a floppy drive to a Mac in
order to create (Intel-bootable) Mackie hard disk recorder operating
system floppys. The guy with the HDR has a USB floppy but apparently it
won't create a bootable floppy disk. He was told that only a Firewire or
IDE floppy will do that (I dunno why but that's not the point). So he
was advised to get an IDE floppy drive.

I've never heard of such a thing. Is there a floppy with an IDE (40 pin
ribbon) connector on it that was made just for Macs? I suspect that what
the wise guy left out was the part about using a new cable on the IDE
drive and connecting it to an IDE port (assuming the G4 has one). But
I've never been inside a Mac and I don't know about these mysteries.

I've never seen one. Most people use the term IDE for floppy cables as
well, even though they aren't IDE devices. Maybe he's confused :-)

[Mike Rivers]

hank alrich wrote:

Hmmm... If it was to make a Mac-bootable install, maybe so, but I don't
see why it couldn't write the code required to boot something else.
Sometimes (IIRC) whether or not one can get Mac-boot ability depends on
firmware in the outboard drive, and whether or not it's what the Mac
recognizes are a legit source for bootin'.

I was thinking along those lines, that you needed something special to
make a floppy that would boot a Mac. The source is an HQX file and
according to the instructions you first need to make that into a real
file (not difficult) and then use a Mac disk copy utility to copy it on
to a floppy. On a PC, it's simple. You download an executable file (a
different one from the Mac version) and run it with a floppy in the
drive. It writes the bootable image on to the floppy automagically. I've
never tried it with a USB floppy though, because when I wrote the book
most computers still had floppy drives, and I still have floppys in all
of my computers except one laptop.

If I were you I'd seek the answer to this in the DAW-Mac forum. If you
would rather not go there I could take your query there and get back to
you with the replies.

Yeah, ask it there if it's not too dumb of a question. I'd just as soon
not go over there as a stranger without a Mac not being able to answer
any follow-up questions.

Here's the instructions as written (which presumably work)L

Follow these steps if you are downloading onto a Mac OS(TM) computer:

1) Download the self-extracting file: HDR1_4B420.hqx (3.29MB)

2) To expand the HQX file, you'll need Stuffit Expander(TM)
(http://www.aladdinsys.com). If Stuffit Expander does not launch
automatically at
the completion of the download, then drag the HQX file onto the Stuffit
Expander(TM)
icon. Stuffit Expander(TM) creates a file called HDR1_4B420.sea,
and a folder titled HDR1_4B420. Drag the SEA file to the trash
can.

3) Launch Apple's Disk Copy utility (you may need to download the Disk Copy
utility from http://www.apple.com. or check the system installations
disks that
came with your system).

4) Label one double sided, high density 1.44MB freshly PC formatted
floppy disk as
"Disk 1", and a second PC formatted floppy as "Disk 2".

5) Depending on your version of Disk Copy, either click on the "Load Image
File..." button or choose "Make a Floppy" from the Utilities menu.

6) Locate the image folder labeled HDR1_4B420 that was extracted
onto your hard drive, select the HDR420D1.img file, and click
"Choose".

7) Insert Disk 1 into the floppy drive when prompted. With older
versions of Disk
Copy you may need to click on the "Make a copy" button first.

8) Disk Copy will eject the floppy when it has finished making the
image. Remove
Disk 1, and repeat steps 5 through 7, using HDR420D2.img to create
Disk 2.

There were some alternate instructions at one time that specified the
use of a program "Shrinkwrap" to make the bootable copy. But these are
all old instructions. I think Apple was around Version 7 at the time,
and I don't know how much different OS-X is in regards to floppy disk
management or utilities.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

I stopped reading the instructions too soon. Here's the Shrinkwrap part,
which apparently pertains to a USB floppy drive: Does this ring any bells?


**Note to Macintosh USB Floppy drive users:

Apple's Disk Copy program will not work using the above method with a
USB floppy
drive because the menu option "Make a Floppy..." will not be available.
You must
use Aladdin Systems' ShrinkWrap program available for purchase and trial
download
from http://www.aladdinsys.com/shrinkwrap/index.html. Once you have
ShrinkWrap
installed substitute these steps for steps 3-8 in the above directions.

3) Launch ShrinkWrap.

4) Label one double sided, high density 1.44MB freshly PC formatted
floppy disk as
"Disk 1", and a second PC formatted floppy as "Disk 2".

5) Select "Write Image back to Disk..." from the Image menu (command-B).

6) Locate the image folder labeled HDR1_4B420 that was extracted
onto your hard drive, select the HDR420D1.img file, and click
"Select".

7) Insert Disk 1 into the floppy drive when prompted.

8) ShrinkWrap will eject the floppy when it has finished making the
image. Remove
Disk 1, and repeat steps 5 through 7, using HDR420D2.img to create
Disk 2.

[Mike Rivers]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

I've never seen one. Most people use the term IDE for floppy cables as
well, even though they aren't IDE devices. Maybe he's confused :-)

He wouldn't admit it if he was. Not easy to get confused, though, once
you try to plug the floppy cable into an IDE drive and find that you
have some pins left over.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

I've never seen one. Most people use the term IDE for floppy cables as
well, even though they aren't IDE devices. Maybe he's confused :-)

He wouldn't admit it if he was. Not easy to get confused, though, once
you try to plug the floppy cable into an IDE drive and find that you
have some pins left over.


Ah! Those are the Windows pins and are not needed on a Mac... you can
just pull them out of the socket :-)

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Mike Rivers wrote:

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is mutual) over on
another forum is claiming that he replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with
an IDE drive. Says "Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in."
I know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

On beige desktop G3s, the IDE and power cables are routed past the back
of the floppy drive and have an extra set of connectors for a second
drive. Perhaps it is the same in the G4 and he just plugged the
alternative cable in without noticing that it wasn't the one he had just
unplugged.

(I believe early revisions of the G3 would only address one IDE drive on
the bus, but that had probably been sorted by the time they came to G4.)


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

I've never seen one. Most people use the term IDE for floppy cables as
well, even though they aren't IDE devices. Maybe he's confused :-)

He wouldn't admit it if he was. Not easy to get confused, though, once
you try to plug the floppy cable into an IDE drive and find that you
have some pins left over.

I think using the term "IDE" for floppy cables is like using the term "film"
when you mean "videotape" and as such is grounds for throwing something
at a person.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

On beige desktop G3s, the IDE and power cables are routed past the back
of the floppy drive and have an extra set of connectors for a second
drive. Perhaps it is the same in the G4 and he just plugged the
alternative cable in without noticing that it wasn't the one he had just
unplugged.

That's a reasonable explanation. PCs are usually built like that - two
connectors on the drive end of the IDE cable. This guy comes on like
he's pretty smart but also probably came in too late to learn the
fundamentals. Perhaps he concluded that since he was able to physically
mount an IDE drive where the floppy was and found a place to connect it,
that the floppy must have been IDE as well.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I think using the term "IDE" for floppy cables is like using the term "film"
when you mean "videotape" and as such is grounds for throwing something
at a person.

Or using "Centronics" connector for "Blue Ribbon." But I'll forgive
someone who uses DB-9 (based on that a DB-25 is a DB-25) for whatever it
really is (which I can't remember, which is why I'm so forgiving).


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

If I were you I'd seek the answer to this in the DAW-Mac forum. If you
would rather not go there I could take your query there and get back to
you with the replies.

Yeah, ask it there if it's not too dumb of a question. I'd just as soon
not go over there as a stranger without a Mac not being able to answer
any follow-up questions.

Will do.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[david correia]

In article xWywk.657$sq3.503@trnddc07,
Mike Rivers wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Hmmm... If it was to make a Mac-bootable install, maybe so, but I don't
see why it couldn't write the code required to boot something else.
Sometimes (IIRC) whether or not one can get Mac-boot ability depends on
firmware in the outboard drive, and whether or not it's what the Mac
recognizes are a legit source for bootin'.

I was thinking along those lines, that you needed something special to
make a floppy that would boot a Mac. The source is an HQX file and
according to the instructions you first need to make that into a real
file (not difficult) and then use a Mac disk copy utility to copy it on
to a floppy. On a PC, it's simple. You download an executable file (a
different one from the Mac version) and run it with a floppy in the
drive. It writes the bootable image on to the floppy automagically. I've
never tried it with a USB floppy though, because when I wrote the book
most computers still had floppy drives, and I still have floppys in all
of my computers except one laptop.

If I were you I'd seek the answer to this in the DAW-Mac forum. If you
would rather not go there I could take your query there and get back to
you with the replies.

Yeah, ask it there if it's not too dumb of a question. I'd just as soon
not go over there as a stranger without a Mac not being able to answer
any follow-up questions.

Here's the instructions as written (which presumably work)L

Follow these steps if you are downloading onto a Mac OS(TM) computer:

1) Download the self-extracting file: HDR1_4B420.hqx (3.29MB)

2) To expand the HQX file, you'll need Stuffit Expander(TM)
(http://www.aladdinsys.com). If Stuffit Expander does not launch
automatically at
the completion of the download, then drag the HQX file onto the Stuffit
Expander(TM)
icon. Stuffit Expander(TM) creates a file called HDR1_4B420.sea,
and a folder titled HDR1_4B420. Drag the SEA file to the trash
can.

3) Launch Apple's Disk Copy utility (you may need to download the Disk Copy
utility from http://www.apple.com. or check the system installations
disks that
came with your system).

4) Label one double sided, high density 1.44MB freshly PC formatted
floppy disk as
"Disk 1", and a second PC formatted floppy as "Disk 2".

5) Depending on your version of Disk Copy, either click on the "Load Image
File..." button or choose "Make a Floppy" from the Utilities menu.

6) Locate the image folder labeled HDR1_4B420 that was extracted
onto your hard drive, select the HDR420D1.img file, and click
"Choose".

7) Insert Disk 1 into the floppy drive when prompted. With older
versions of Disk
Copy you may need to click on the "Make a copy" button first.

8) Disk Copy will eject the floppy when it has finished making the
image. Remove
Disk 1, and repeat steps 5 through 7, using HDR420D2.img to create
Disk 2.

There were some alternate instructions at one time that specified the
use of a program "Shrinkwrap" to make the bootable copy. But these are
all old instructions. I think Apple was around Version 7 at the time,
and I don't know how much different OS-X is in regards to floppy disk
management or utilities.


You aren't going to create a standard Mac floppy that will boot a G4.
Waaay too much data to fit on one.

According to Wikipedia, Apple stopped shipping floppy drives in 1998
with introduction of iMac. G4's started shipping shortly thereafter.

btw I do own a 3rd party USB Mac floppy. It's what Mac folks bought for
access to floppies, as Jobs dumped the floppy drive long before the PC
world did. We had no other choices. It still works years later with the
current version of OS X. Just plug it in.

Heck, my still working 16 year old Apple Personal Laserwriter NTR is
recognized by OS X. Pretty frickin cool!





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 6, 9:43 pm, david correia wrote:

You aren't going to create a standard Mac floppy that will boot a G4.
Waaay too much data to fit on one.

That's not the problem. The problem is to attach a floppy drive to a
Mac that will allow creating a floppy disk that's bootable on a Mackie
recorder (an Intel motherboard)

According to Wikipedia, Apple stopped shipping floppy drives in 1998
with introduction of iMac. G4's started shipping shortly thereafter.

The Mackie recorder was introduced n 2000, but people had Macs with
floppy drives at the time. Some of them even needed to create
installation floppys for their Mackie recorders. And at least one
still does.

btw I do own a 3rd party USB Mac floppy. It's what Mac folks bought for
access to floppies, as Jobs dumped the floppy drive long before the PC
world did. We had no other choices. It still works years later with the
current version of OS X. Just plug it in.

So what does the ShrinkWrap utility do that makes it necessary for
this application? Ever use it, or even hear of it? If you have a few
minutes and a blank floppy, go to http://www.mackie.com/products/hdr24...downloads.html
and see if you can make an HDR installation disk. I'd be curious as to
what happens.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:qrywk.641$1a2.180@trnddc04

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is
mutual) over on another forum is claiming that he
replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with an IDE drive. Says
"Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in." I
know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with interchangable drive bays.
The same bay would hold a floppy or a CD drive.

This was part of a discussion about adding a floppy drive
to a Mac in order to create (Intel-bootable) Mackie hard
disk recorder operating system floppys. The guy with the
HDR has a USB floppy but apparently it won't create a
bootable floppy disk. He was told that only a Firewire or
IDE floppy will do that (I dunno why but that's not the
point). So he was advised to get an IDE floppy drive.

Here is what appears to be a product listing for an IDE floppy:

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/spe...ecs-_-Main+Tab

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:00:54 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Here is what appears to be a product listing for an IDE floppy:

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/spe...ecs-_-Main+Tab

Here's another reference to the same product. A comphrehensive list
od specs. - everything but the connection is mentioned :-) Interesting
look-back to the days when we might have cared about floppy disk
performance - now we're just grateful it reads that old floppy at all!

I guess the previous reference just proves that if you search the 'net
hard enough you'll have no trouble finding a misprint.

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with interchangable drive bays.
The same bay would hold a floppy or a CD drive.

Interesting. But I suppose that in order to be compatible with the
interchangeable drive bay, it would have the same form factor, or at
least the same connector type, as a 2.5" hard drive. Would it make sense
for Apple to put this sort of drive in a G4? Maybe. They've done some
strange things.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Laurence Payne wrote:

Here's another reference to the same product. A comphrehensive list
od specs. - everything but the connection is mentioned :-)

Did you forget something? The CDW specs pretty clearly says IDE
interface but doesn't specify the connector. A search direct to Sony is
hopeless, at least for me.

I guess the previous reference just proves that if you search the 'net
hard enough you'll have no trouble finding a misprint.

That's the way it goes. If you're looking to confirm something, you can
find it. If you're looking to dispute the same thing, you can find that,
too.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

Here is what appears to be a product listing for an IDE floppy:

And a "search for similar products" from the same web page comes up with
a little more detail on a similar product:

Sony MPF920-Z 3.5-inch Floppy Disk Drive
1.44MB 3.5" internal EIDE (34-pin) floppy disk drive for PCs with black
bezel

Note that it says "34-pin" which is what I consider to be the
conventional interface for a floppy drive, different from that of a hard
drive that we usually refer to as "IDE" which has a 40-pin connector.

We had 34-pin floppy drives back when we had ST-506 hard drives and
nobody called then IDE back then. I suspect that either "IDE" is more
general than how I'm using it, and that the guy who claims that there
was one in his Mac G4 was using the term literally just to be
argumentative (or because he didn't know any better). But that still
doesn't explain just what he did when he replaced the floppy drive.

Come to think of it, he never said he replaced it with a hard drive, I
just ASSumed that. More misleading useless information.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
Here is what appears to be a product listing for an IDE floppy:

And a "search for similar products" from the same web page comes up with a
little more detail on a similar product:

Sony MPF920-Z 3.5-inch Floppy Disk Drive
1.44MB 3.5" internal EIDE (34-pin) floppy disk drive for PCs with black
bezel

Note that it says "34-pin" which is what I consider to be the conventional
interface for a floppy drive, different from that of a hard drive that we
usually refer to as "IDE" which has a 40-pin connector.

We had 34-pin floppy drives back when we had ST-506 hard drives and nobody
called then IDE back then. I suspect that either "IDE" is more general
than how I'm using it, and that the guy who claims that there was one in
his Mac G4 was using the term literally just to be argumentative (or
because he didn't know any better). But that still doesn't explain just
what he did when he replaced the floppy drive.

Come to think of it, he never said he replaced it with a hard drive, I
just ASSumed that. More misleading useless information.

IDE and floppy interfaces are completely different. Note that those
slide-in interchangeable modules included a variety of different things,
even extra battery power, etc. This was accomplished with a custom
connector that has enough pins for all the different users. The "raw
drives" didn't plug directly into the slots. They were packaged into
the plastic enclosure that fits the slot.

The last several laptops I've had used USB to talk to the optical
drive. When you go to disconnect an external USB device (like
a drive.etc.) the "internal" drive is listed as if it were "external".


extra batteries, and likely
even other gadgets.

[Mike Rivers]

Richard Crowley wrote:

The last several laptops I've had used USB to talk to the optical
drive. When you go to disconnect an external USB device (like
a drive.etc.) the "internal" drive is listed as if it were "external".

I have one like that. I always wondered why the CD drive showed up there.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:qrywk.641$1a2.180@trnddc04

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is
mutual) over on another forum is claiming that he
replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with an IDE drive. Says
"Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in." I
know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with interchangable drive bays.
The same bay would hold a floppy or a CD drive.

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several fundamental ways
from PC drives? The disk format is completely different and the
ejection mechanism is motor driven.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several fundamental ways
from PC drives? The disk format is completely different and the
ejection mechanism is motor driven.

Still, one is capable of reading a PC disk, and of writing one that can
be read on a PC. There may be some tricks involved. Go back a few
messages and you'll see where I've posted the instructions for doing one
specific job, the job that prompted what prompted this discussion.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several fundamental ways
from PC drives? The disk format is completely different and the
ejection mechanism is motor driven.

Still, one is capable of reading a PC disk, and of writing one that can
be read on a PC. There may be some tricks involved. Go back a few
messages and you'll see where I've posted the instructions for doing one
specific job, the job that prompted what prompted this discussion.

Yes, the Mac drives could read and write Mac or PC formatted disks, but
a drive imported from the PC side of the fence probably wouldn't work
with Mac software drivers because it is such a different beast.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Yes, the Mac drives could read and write Mac or PC formatted disks, but
a drive imported from the PC side of the fence probably wouldn't work
with Mac software drivers because it is such a different beast.

So perhaps the answer to my question is: (?)

A Mac floppy drive is not the same hardware as a PC floppy drive. Among
other things, it uses the same 40-pin cable that an IDE hard drive
(which is the same on a Mac or PC) does. Unless the Mac is filled up,
there's likely a spare connector that can be used for either a floppy or
hard drive.

If this is accurate, it would put the issue to rest. The only other
issue is whether if a hard drive was substituted for a floppy in a Mac,
would it be recognized and usable?



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
newsbPwk.623$Dj1.214@trnddc02
Laurence Payne wrote:

Here's another reference to the same product. A
comphrehensive list od specs. - everything but the
connection is mentioned :-)

Did you forget something? The CDW specs pretty clearly
says IDE interface but doesn't specify the connector. A
search direct to Sony is hopeless, at least for me.

Once I found the model number I searched the web for it, and found it
consistently referred to as being IDE. If there was an misprint, the
pointing finger points at Sony. CDW seems to do a better job than many of
actually checking the specs they publish, being an enterprise-level supplier
at heart.

I guess the previous reference just proves that if you
search the 'net hard enough you'll have no trouble
finding a misprint.

Finding the same alleged misprint in so many more-or-less idependent sources
raises a few questions.

The device is not improbable, as it was probably closely related to the
active ingredient in the laptop drive slide-ins that I mentioned earlier in
my previous post.

The device makes sense - if space is tight and you control the OS that will
run on the box, why not just use a chipset standard dual-IDE controller,
instead of tacking on a floppy controller? Being able to plug any of the
three possible kinds of drives into the same slot has a lot of romance,
particularly on a portable machine.

That's the way it goes. If you're looking to confirm
something, you can find it. If you're looking to dispute
the same thing, you can find that, too.

From time to time Larry seems to cry "foul" when there is little or no
evidence of there actually being one.

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 11:48:51 -0400, Adrian Tuddenham wrote
(in article . invalid):

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:qrywk.641$1a2.180@trnddc04

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is
mutual) over on another forum is claiming that he
replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with an IDE drive. Says
"Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in." I
know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with interchangable drive bays.
The same bay would hold a floppy or a CD drive.

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several fundamental ways
from PC drives? The disk format is completely different and the
ejection mechanism is motor driven.



It just occurred to me that I may have a Mac floppy drive. ::dig, dig, dig::
Yup. A Panny JU-268A016C w/a 20-pin ribbon cable. I don't know if it's a 400
, 800 or 1.4 MB.

Did anyone actually need one?

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
Here is what appears to be a product listing for an IDE
floppy:

And a "search for similar products" from the same web
page comes up with a little more detail on a similar
product: Sony MPF920-Z 3.5-inch Floppy Disk Drive
1.44MB 3.5" internal EIDE (34-pin) floppy disk drive for
PCs with black bezel

But the device I mentioned was a different model, Sony MPF 820 - Floppy disk
drive - IDE.

The probable relationship is that they are the same drive chassis with
different interfaces.

Note that it says "34-pin" which is what I consider to
be the conventional interface for a floppy drive,
different from that of a hard drive that we usually
refer to as "IDE" which has a 40-pin connector.

Agreed.

We had 34-pin floppy drives back when we had ST-506 hard
drives and nobody called then IDE back then.

Agreed.

IDE and floppy interfaces are completely different. Note
that those slide-in interchangeable modules included a
variety of different things, even extra battery power,
etc.

The battery slots were generally a very different animal.

This was accomplished with a custom connector that
has enough pins for all the different users. The "raw
drives" didn't plug directly into the slots. They were
packaged into the plastic enclosure that fits the slot.

Agreed.

The last several laptops I've had used USB to talk to the
optical drive. When you go to disconnect an external USB
device (like a drive.etc.) the "internal" drive is listed as if it
were "external".

I've worked with several really new machines, and the big switchover I've
seen has been from PATA to SATA for both hard drives and optical drives.

SATA can support hot swapping. IME it works well for both optical and hard
drives. You've got to have a SATA controller that supports it, not all do.

Hot-swappable SATA seems like a natural contender for hard drive
applications of USB.

[Arny Krueger]

"Adrian Tuddenham"
wrote in message
lid.invalid
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:qrywk.641$1a2.180@trnddc04

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is
mutual) over on another forum is claiming that he
replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with an IDE drive. Says
"Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in." I
know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with
interchangable drive bays. The same bay would hold a
floppy or a CD drive.

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several
fundamental ways from PC drives? The disk format is
completely different

That looks like a software issue because appropriate software allow the
discs to be interchanged on both Macs and PCs.

and the ejection mechanism is motor driven.

That's a nit. My recollection is that LS-120 drives were IDE, read and write
standard 3.5 inch floppies in both Mac and PC format (with appropriate
software), and had motorized load/ejection.

[Richard Crowley]

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
Hot-swappable SATA seems like a natural contender for hard drive
applications of USB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 8, 8:38 am, Ty Ford wrote:

It just occurred to me that I may have a Mac floppy drive. ::dig, dig, dig::
Yup. A Panny JU-268A016C w/a 20-pin ribbon cable. I don't know if it's a 400
, 800 or 1.4 MB.

Did anyone actually need one?

I don't actually think so. I didn't count pins, but 20 seems about
what the one that I looked at that was in a PowerPC 9600 has in it.
Clearly not what I (and apparently the rest of the world) knows as
IDE, but also not the same as what most of the world knows as a floppy
interface. I guess that Macs just live in a different world and don't
use off-the-shelf commodity floppy drives - and may have used more
than one interface for the floppy drive over the years.

I tried searching the web for "Macintosh floppy disk drive" in hopes
of finding one that had a "normal" IDE interface and had no luck.
Mostly what turned up were USB drives, which, apparently you can't
boot a Mac from. I'm not sure you can boot a PC from one either, but
that's not the issue.

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Adrian Tuddenham"
wrote in message
lid.invalid
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:qrywk.641$1a2.180@trnddc04

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is
mutual) over on another forum is claiming that he
replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with an IDE drive. Says
"Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in." I
know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

IDE floppy drives used to be used on laptops with
interchangable drive bays. The same bay would hold a
floppy or a CD drive.

You do realise that Mac floppy drives differ in several
fundamental ways from PC drives? The disk format is
completely different

That looks like a software issue because appropriate software allow the
discs to be interchanged on both Macs and PCs.

While that's been true for a good while now, once upon a primitive time
it wasn't so.

and the ejection mechanism is motor driven.

That's a nit. My recollection is that LS-120 drives were IDE, read and write
standard 3.5 inch floppies in both Mac and PC format (with appropriate
software), and had motorized load/ejection.


--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
Hot-swappable SATA seems like a natural contender for
hard drive applications of USB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA

As a practical matter, many on-board SATA controllers support hot swapping
under XP.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

A guy (not one of my favorite people, and the feeling is mutual) over on
another forum is claiming that he replaced a floppy drive in a G4 with
an IDE drive. Says "Just slid the floppy out and slid the IDE drive in."
I know it'll fit physically, but how about connecting it?

There is a comprehensive database of Mac specs at:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/

Fo' 'xample, these excerpts:

----------

http://www.everymac.com/systems/appl...age_transfer.h
tml


How can I transfer files from my existing Mac to my Power Mac G4?

All Power Macintosh G4 models released prior to August 13, 2002, ship
with the option of an internal Zip drive, and have the internal
connectors to add one later as well. If your older Mac already has a Zip
drive, one easy way might be to purchase a Power Macintosh G4 with an
internal Zip drive (models released before August 13, 2002) or an
external Zip drive (models released after August 13, 2002) and transfer
all of your files from your older Mac to your new one via Zip
cartridges. If your older Mac has a CD-R/CD-RW drive, it may be even
easier, and less expensive, to copy files to CD, and then transfer them
to your Power Macintosh G4. Or, if you have an abundance of old floppy
disks and your older Mac has a floppy drive, you simply can add an
external floppy drive to your Power Macintosh G4, such as the Imation
USB SuperDisk, which reads and writes standard 1.44 MB disks and 120 MB
SuperDisks.



What removable storage options are available for the Power Macintosh G4
series?

Originally, for immediate removable storage, the Power Macintosh G4
series could be configured with an internal Zip 100 drive or an internal
DVD-RAM drive. Systems released on January 9, 2001 could be equipped
with an internal Zip 250 drive and either a CD-RW drive or a CD-RW/DVD-R
SuperDrive, depending on the model. Both the original "Quicksilver"
systems, introduced on July 18, 2001 and discontinued on January 28,
2002, and the "Quicksilver" systems introduced on January 28, 2002 and
discontinued on August 13, 2002, could be equipped with an internal Zip
250 drive and either a CD-RW drive, a hybrid CD-RW/DVD-ROM "Combo"
drive, or a hybrid CD-RW/DVD-R "SuperDrive", depending on the model. On
August 13, 2002, Apple dropped the internal Zip option, but added the
option of pre-installing one or two CD-RW drives, hybrid CD-RW/DVD-ROM
"Combo" drives, or hybrid CD-RW/DVD-R "SuperDrives". For the default
configurations, please refer to the appropriate specs page for the model
of interest.

External USB-based and FireWire-based removable storage can be added to
any model quickly and easily. You can also use SCSI-based devices by
adding a SCSI card to the Power Macintosh G4.

----------

So this is my story and I'm sticking to it:

Apple never shipped a G4 with a built-in floppy drive.


--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 9, 11:12 am, (hank alrich) wrote:

So this is my story and I'm sticking to it:
Apple never shipped a G4 with a built-in floppy drive.

Perhaps he doesn't know what a floppy drive is.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On Sep 9, 11:12 am, (hank alrich) wrote:

So this is my story and I'm sticking to it:
Apple never shipped a G4 with a built-in floppy drive.

Perhaps he doesn't know what a floppy drive is.

Aaaahh, the irony... g

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam