[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On 17 Aug 2008 18:49:24 GMT, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote:

I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.

Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur
porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix
this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is
nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo
to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout.

I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition.

Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer.

I feel a re-recording session looming.... Anything else will be a
bodge. Get it right.

[Scott Dorsey]

Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.

That's why it's important for your boom op to keep the position identical
from one shot to the next. Keep the distance as close as possible without
getting the mike in the shot, but keep the distance as close to the same
for shots within the same scene.

Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur
porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix
this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is
nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo
to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout.

You cannot remove reverb. You CAN loop it all back in the studio under
controlled conditions if you can get the actors back. You can also add
reverb to the drier shots. You can also be creative with the musical
bed to hide it... if the reverb tail drops down into the level of the
musical bed quickly enough, people won't notice it.

I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition.

Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer.

I wish I had better advice other than looping.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:24:57 +0000, Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:

Laurence Payne wrote in
:

I feel a re-recording session looming...

Not an option. As I indicated in my original post, ADDING echo for
consistency would be a better alternative.

What were you recording the audio on?
Some cameras have compression on their audio inputs which will bring up
the room reverb.

If the audio is uncompressed you could try some expansion. I've had luck
with using quite an aggressive expander, and riding the expander
threshold so it keeps biting at the right level despite the dialogue
level changes. Follow it with your replacement reverb and it might sound
ok.

If there are any frequencies that the room is resonating at, then you
could try pulling them down a bit with a parametric too.

Try capturing a bit of the room reverb into noise reduction as well. If
you abuse it a little it can work like a spectral gate. I think Adobe
Audition come with a plugin that will do this. Some plugins will also
gate if you use them without capturing a noise sample.

Also, try a generous high pass to cut everything below speech frequencies.

Ah, this is all advice for speech. If it's music then you are screwed.

Good luck!



jaybee

[Richard Crowley]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote...
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine
during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.

For future reference:
1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary
of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf

2) Always use a dedicated sound person, even if recording single-
system. This person's prime responsibility is to see that this kind of
thing doesn't happen. Because you can see that is MUCH harder
to fix in post-production that it would have been to prevent while
shooting.

3) Monitor at all times on good, occluding headphones.
NEVER take for granted that the sound is OK. It usually isn't.
Recording sound without monitoring is like shooting without
looking at the viewfinder/monitor.

4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics
indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing.
Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot-
gun mics are generally only effective outdoors.

Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur
porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix
this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is
nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo
to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout.

Sure, go for it. You don't need our permission to experiment with
adding reverb to try to "normalize" the shots. But I wouldn't have
high expectations that it will work.

An alternate solution (which was suggested by Laurence Payne,
but misunderstood by you) is to "loop" the shots, where you
have the actor(s) view the edited video and recreate their
speech to be recorded in a good sound situation. Hollywood
studios have special ADR (Automated Dialog Replacement)
facilities just for this.

I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition.

Not familiar with Soundbooth, but Audition has as many variations
on synthetic reverb as likely anything available. You have literally
dozens of parameters to adjust and 100s of thousands of variations
to try.

Another technique that might work (depending on exactly what
your tracks sound like, which we haven't heard) is to *gate* the
track to catch just the speech and attenuate the "room tone"
in-between phrases.

And finally, *masking* the undesired sound qualities with
"background noise" and/or music is sometimes effective.

Last weekend I participated (for the 3rd year) with a team
doing the "48 Hour Film Project" here in our city. I let the
other team members go out and shoot just to give them the
experience. But then I have to deal with the audio (and video)
that they bring back because I do the finish edit. I have used
all of the suggested techniques when dealing with defective
sound tracks.
http://www.48hourfilm.com/ a lot of fun. :-)

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in
:

For future reference:
1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary
of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf

Given the no-budget production, we had to select the location based on
availability. In retrospect, I wish I had hung more blankets.

2) Always use a dedicated sound person, even if recording single-
system. This person's prime responsibility is to see that this kind of
thing doesn't happen. Because you can see that is MUCH harder
to fix in post-production that it would have been to prevent while
shooting.

I did have a dedicated sound person who had SOME experience, but not a
lot. It was a volunteer project, so I was expecting some problems in
post.

3) Monitor at all times on good, occluding headphones.
NEVER take for granted that the sound is OK. It usually isn't.
Recording sound without monitoring is like shooting without
looking at the viewfinder/monitor.

I had a very good pair of Audio Technica headphones (recommended by users
here - thanks!) and a portable mixer. But I realize now that I may need a
different mic for indoor shooting (thanks again guys).

4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics
indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing.
Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot-
gun mics are generally only effective outdoors.

Any suggestions on a make/model? Something fairly inexpensive for small
shoots, as I'd just rent (or hire someone with their own equipment) for
larger projects.

Sure, go for it. You don't need our permission to experiment with
adding reverb to try to "normalize" the shots. But I wouldn't have
high expectations that it will work.

No, I doubt I'll very much like reverb throughout. But at least it'll be
slightly better than inconsistent sound.

An alternate solution (which was suggested by Laurence Payne,
but misunderstood by you) is to "loop" the shots, where you
have the actor(s) view the edited video and recreate their
speech

No, I understood what he meant. I don't really have the actors available
for dubbing. It's a solution, but a remote one.

http://www.48hourfilm.com/ a lot of fun. :-)

Thanks for the link and the technical advice, very much appreciated.

I love these small guerilla-filmmaking projects, even though they are
problematic in post. Lets me give young people an opporutnity to get some
experience, and the creative energy is high.


jaybee

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

That's why it's important for your boom op to keep the position
identical from one shot to the next. Keep the distance as close as
possible without getting the mike in the shot, but keep the distance
as close to the same for shots within the same scene.

Yep, I realize that. Problem is, we shot in different places within the
same room, and that's why the reverb changed. I didn't have enough hands
to monitor the sound as well, and my sound guy only had some experience,
but I was expecting some problems.

You cannot remove reverb. You CAN loop it all back in the studio
under controlled conditions if you can get the actors back. You can
also add reverb to the drier shots. You can also be creative with the
musical bed to hide it... if the reverb tail drops down into the level
of the musical bed quickly enough, people won't notice it.

I think my best solution so far is a little bit of everything that people
recommended. Some filters and music.

I wish I had better advice other than looping.

No your advice is helpful. From my Google searches I knew that re-
recording the dialogue was the best I could hope for. But I thought I'd
tap the vast knowledge of the pros in this group for some little tricks I
could try firs to alleviate the problem, and I'm not disappointed.


jaybee

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in
news
Jacques,
Shotguns are echo-prone indoors. If the room is reasonably quiet,
use a
hypercardioid.

Thanks Bob, I'm looking at some mics now (until I can get recommendations
on a make/model).


jaybee

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

philicorda wrote in
:

What were you recording the audio on?
Some cameras have compression on their audio inputs which will bring
up the room reverb.

It was directly to a Canon XH-A1. For larger shoots, I intend to use
separate sound and a more competent sound person.

Ah, this is all advice for speech. If it's music then you are screwed.

All speech, fortunately. Thank you very much for your advice, I'll give it
a try.


jaybee

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.

Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur
porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix
this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is
nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo
to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout.

I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition.

Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer.


jaybee

[Ron Capik]

"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote in
:

For future reference:
1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary
of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf

Given the no-budget production, we had to select the location based on
availability. In retrospect, I wish I had hung more blankets.

.....snip....

I love these small guerilla-filmmaking projects, even though they are
problematic in post. Lets me give young people an opporutnity to get some
experience, and the creative energy is high.

jaybee

If your best option is to even out the room echo you might want to
try a convolution reverb. If someone dropped or clanked something
while sound was rolling you may have a useful impulse to work with.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Scott Dorsey]

Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in

4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics
indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing.
Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot-
gun mics are generally only effective outdoors.

Any suggestions on a make/model? Something fairly inexpensive for small
shoots, as I'd just rent (or hire someone with their own equipment) for
larger projects.

Audio-Technica AT4053 would be my first suggestion on a budget. Rumor has
it that they are getting to be difficult to find, though. The Oktava 012
with a hypercardioid capsule is okay, but Oktava's idea of a hypercardioid
is pretty wide in comparison with A-Ts.

For a shotgun, if you can't afford a 416, consider the ME-80. They sell
for cheap and they are sort of mostly usable. A PX-12 battery should fit
in one in place of the now-unavailable mercury stack they were designed for.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

Laurence Payne wrote in
:

I feel a re-recording session looming...

Not an option. As I indicated in my original post, ADDING echo for
consistency would be a better alternative.


jaybee

[Marc Wielage[_2_]]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:49:24 -0700, Jacques E. Bouchard wrote
(in article 2):

I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.
------------------------------snip------------------------------

I think this is among the hardest things to control in location sound
recording. So much depends on the acoustics of the room, camera position, and
actor movement, along with outside factors (air conditioning, traffic,
airplanes, camera noise, etc.), it can be a nightmare to deal with.

As other posters have suggested, microphone selection is a major factor.
Hypercardioids like the Schoeps MK641 (expensive) and Sennheiser MKH50 (less
expensive) can help control this to a degree, but a lot depends on the skill
and experience of your boom operator. In my experience, shotgun mikes
(Sennheiser 416, MKH60, etc.) don't work well in small rooms with reflective
walls. Sound mixers choose mikes the way a great photographer chooses the
right lens for a shot; there's an art to how they pick the right mike for a
specific scene, and experience makes all the difference. Bear in mind there's
a reason why good microphones are expensive.

One common method used in TV -- particularly when two or more simultaneous
cameras are used in fast-paced scenes -- is to plant wireless mikes on each
speaking actor. The good news is that this helps "take the room out of the
recording," which minimzes reverb and slap echo; the bad news is, it sounds
artificial, like somebody talking into a closely-mounted microphone, as
opposed to someone speaking in a real space. But if you're on a tight budget
and can't rely on ADR later on to loop the bad lines, this may be your best
option. (Once you're aware of the sound quality difference between a good
boom and a wireless mike, it's very hard to watch many TV shows.)

These books will be helpful to you:

Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art
by John Purcell
published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240809181]

The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound
by David Yewdall
published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240808657]

Producing Great Sound for Digital Video
by Jay Rose
published by CMP Books [ISBN #157820208]

Audio Postproduction for Digital Video
by Jay Rose
published by CMP Books [ISBN #1578201160]

Sound for Digital Video
by Tomlinson Holman
published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240807200]

Sound for Film and Television
by Tomlinson Holman
published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240804538]

Sync Sound for DAT, DV, and DVD
by Wolf Seeberg

and

24P For Sound and Video Assist
by Wolf Seeberg
www.wolfvid.com

Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
by Ty Ford
http://web.mac.com/tyreeford

Guide to the Nagra 4.2 and Production Sound Recording
by Fred Ginsburg
published by Equipment Emporium [ISBN #0971394105]

Purcell's book is recommended because it specifically deals with how to fix
dialog problems in post, and also covers why the problems happen in the first
place. Yewdall's book is a good overview of the entire process, though it
mainly covers sound design and gathering sound effects, along with the final
mix. Jay Rose's books are excellent for people shooting small projects on
micro budgets, but the basic principles often apply to big projects as well.
And Holman's books are used as standard college textbooks in quite a few film
schools.

Wolf Seeberg's books are more advanced, and are specialized guides on user
setup and solving technical problems with digital gear on location. Ty Ford's
book is short but to the point, and has a lot of very specific tips of use to
beginners. Ford also has some very good mike reviews and demos on his site.

Ginsberg's book is dated (early 1990s), but many of the important principles
he talks about are still 100% valid today, particularly in terms of mike
selection, booming technique, how to deal with difficult locations, and
balancing multiple mikes between actors. (It's often available on eBay, and
also used on Amazon.)

The other books are available from major pro sound dealers like Coffey Sound
and Location Sound Corp. in LA, Gotham Sound in NYC, and Trew Audio in
Nashville & Toronto, as well as online booksellers like Amazon.

You'll also find great ongoing discussions on the Usenet group
rec.arts.movies.production sound, as well as Jeff Wexler's terrific
discussion group at www.jwsound.net, elsewhere on the web.

--MFW

[Richard Crowley]

"Marc Wielage" wrote ...
excellent suggestions, bibliography, book reviews, and
resource directory snipped for brevity. Archive that post!

Terrific info, Marc, thanks for taking the time to share it.

The Jay Rose books are likely aimed more at the kind of
experience and types of production that Jacques is dealing
with right now. Recommended.

Mr. Rose also is known to hang out in the production sound
newsgroup (news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound) as do
the authors of some of the other books suggested, and the
some of the suggested vendors (reatil outlets and equipment
manufacturers), and some of the sound mixers working on the
productions you see in the theatre and on TV.

[Jacques E. Bouchard]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in news:6h096eFhu8l2U1
@mid.individual.net:

"Marc Wielage" wrote ...
excellent suggestions, bibliography, book reviews, and
resource directory snipped for brevity. Archive that post!

Terrific info, Marc, thanks for taking the time to share it.

The Jay Rose books are likely aimed more at the kind of
experience and types of production that Jacques is dealing
with right now. Recommended.

Mr. Rose also is known to hang out in the production sound
newsgroup (news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound) as do
the authors of some of the other books suggested, and the
some of the suggested vendors (reatil outlets and equipment
manufacturers), and some of the sound mixers working on the
productions you see in the theatre and on TV.

Thanks for the newsgroup heads-up, AND to Marc Wielage for his
remarkable, excellent reply (which I've printed out and going to hand my
local bookseller). That's the reason I like newsgroups: when you get past
the few bad apples with anger issues and behavioral problems, you meet
impassioned people who love to share their knowledge.

And thanks again to everyone else who shared tips and advice.



jaybee

[Dave]

Perhaps the best unit to try mitigating the reverb would be a Cedar
DNS 1000. It can work some miracles. Not all, but some. See
http://www.cedar-audio.com/products/dns/dns.html

Dave

On Aug 17, 11:49*am, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote:
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during
recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in
particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next
depending on the angle and the position of the microphone.

Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur
porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix
this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is
nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo
to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout.

I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition.

Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer.

jaybee