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#1
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Prince of Darkness
I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay
bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian |
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#2
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"Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian If its anything like the lucas electrics on my old mini, it won't start occasionally, and the heaters will flash on and off in sych to the music! But seriously, make sure they aren't selenium, if they burn it smeels baaaad... |
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#3
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The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping
they chatter away happily. Noise and smoke are a distraction though. The Lucas short dynamo needs at least 800rpm before the regulator kicks in, which is why tight corners were always so dark in the days of the Prince. Interestingly, I get more rumble from the alloy twin than the cast-iron single. Photos? I can't even take them of the present, never mind the future. Usually by the time I've got a camera ready it *is* the future, which is always too late, like it is for the ugly rat competition, which I must surely would have won except I'm so ugly no-one will lend me a digital camera or a scanner, and so even ugliness becomes a political issue, dominated by the poodles and running-dogs yapping around the wheels of the Juggernaut. What's your excuse? cheers, Ian "jim" wrote in message ... "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian YES, GO FOR IT !!!!! They are totally crap, but, at least, they are British !! Photo preamps seem like a good idea. They come in front of something you are about to do. You could look at the picture before you pressed the shutter and see something which hasn't happened yet before commiting it to the past. Heat it up if you like. I like mine at room temperature.. What is room temperature ?? Who's room and on what day ?? regards jim |
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#4
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"Henry 007" wrote in message
... If its anything like the lucas electrics on my old mini, ... You won't have heaters, you'll have colders.  Tim -- In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!" Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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#5
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"Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian YES, GO FOR IT !!!!! They are totally crap, but, at least, they are British !! Photo preamps seem like a good idea. They come in front of something you are about to do. You could look at the picture before you pressed the shutter and see something which hasn't happened yet before commiting it to the past. Heat it up if you like. I like mine at room temperature.. What is room temperature ?? Who's room and on what day ?? regards jim |
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#6
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Ian Iveson wrote: I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian Q: Why do the Brits drink warm beer? A: They have Lucas refrigerators... Lord Valve American |
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#7
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jim wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping they chatter away happily. These old mechanical regs are suprisingly reliable and long lasting and were fitted to cars of the same era. People would'nt understand it today why a red light came up on the dash when the engine was idling and the cut out points opened. There's now so much crap on cars we're seeing 250Amp alternators with tooth belt drives to cope with the load and 150Ah batteries. You will soon see 36 volt (42 volt) electrical systems in cars to look after the greatley increased loads. Something to think about. John Stewart Old Joe Lucas's E3L would have got a bit hot. Noise and smoke are a distraction though. The Lucas short dynamo needs at least 800rpm before the regulator kicks in, which is why tight corners were always so dark in the days of the Prince. Don't forget the 45W tunsten bulbs as well. In the dark I used to stop, put the bike on it's stand and walk the corners first before riding them. Smoke was an integral part of 50s/60s motoring. Before decent radios it was the only entertainment you had. Trying to identify where it was from, what it smelt of, whether it was getting worse, did you need to open a window yet and whether you would make it home. The kids could be kept amused looking out of the windows for flames. Smoke on motorcycles was either due to hopelessly inadequate tolerances or your boots were on the exhaust pipes. In my brother's case it could be his girlfriends leg in the days when she had a mini skirt and he had a Triumph Sports Cub with hi level exhaust. These kids today. They don't know what fun is ! Interestingly, I get more rumble from the alloy twin than the cast-iron single. Well Ajays twin had an extra main bearing so there was a bit more to rumble and given machining tolerances of the day, rumbles were compulsory. A more raucous exhaust system was the usual cure. Bikes without a rumble were taken back to the manufacturer straight away. It could be a bit tight and might seize up. Ajays' twin also frequently wore it's crank on the outside rather than inside where they normally live. The dramatic appearance of this normally unseen component was accompanied by a loud bang, a left boot full of hot oil, followed by total silence Photos? I can't even take them of the present, never mind the future. Usually by the time I've got a camera ready it *is* the future, which is always too late, like it is for the ugly rat competition, which I must surely would have won except I'm so ugly no-one will lend me a digital camera or a scanner, and so even ugliness becomes a political issue, dominated by the poodles and running-dogs yapping around the wheels of the Juggernaut. What's your excuse? No technology. What's a scanner ? I've only just got a monitor. It's been hell surfing without one.. This computer has Pentium 2, a CD player, an external modem, Win 98 and IE6 That's it !! It has no sound system, no printer outlet and no other facilities. It does what I want and any attempt to understand or upgrade it usually results in erasing all data and programmes, hard disk meltdown and total destruction of all my ISPs hardware if I am online at the time. I did once buy a couple of books .. 'The Internet for Dummies' and 'Understanding your computer' Didn't get beyond page one of either of them. What language are they written in ? I'm waiting for the English versions to come out. On the bright side, viruses usually ignore my computer as it is not worth bothering with. On the ugly side, I assumed Alan Marcy would enter. No contest really is there !! It's a done deal !! Fred tells me he hasn't entered but I've voted for him anyway. kind regards jim cheers, Ian "jim" wrote in message ... "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian YES, GO FOR IT !!!!! They are totally crap, but, at least, they are British !! Photo preamps seem like a good idea. They come in front of something you are about to do. You could look at the picture before you pressed the shutter and see something which hasn't happened yet before commiting it to the past. Heat it up if you like. I like mine at room temperature.. What is room temperature ?? Who's room and on what day ?? regards jim |
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#8
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"Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping they chatter away happily. These old mechanical regs are suprisingly reliable and long lasting and were fitted to cars of the same era. People would'nt understand it today why a red light came up on the dash when the engine was idling and the cut out points opened. There's now so much crap on cars we're seeing 250Amp alternators with tooth belt drives to cope with the load and 150Ah batteries. Old Joe Lucas's E3L would have got a bit hot. Noise and smoke are a distraction though. The Lucas short dynamo needs at least 800rpm before the regulator kicks in, which is why tight corners were always so dark in the days of the Prince. Don't forget the 45W tunsten bulbs as well. In the dark I used to stop, put the bike on it's stand and walk the corners first before riding them. Smoke was an integral part of 50s/60s motoring. Before decent radios it was the only entertainment you had. Trying to identify where it was from, what it smelt of, whether it was getting worse, did you need to open a window yet and whether you would make it home. The kids could be kept amused looking out of the windows for flames. Smoke on motorcycles was either due to hopelessly inadequate tolerances or your boots were on the exhaust pipes. In my brother's case it could be his girlfriends leg in the days when she had a mini skirt and he had a Triumph Sports Cub with hi level exhaust. These kids today. They don't know what fun is ! Interestingly, I get more rumble from the alloy twin than the cast-iron single. Well Ajays twin had an extra main bearing so there was a bit more to rumble and given machining tolerances of the day, rumbles were compulsory. A more raucous exhaust system was the usual cure. Bikes without a rumble were taken back to the manufacturer straight away. It could be a bit tight and might seize up. Ajays' twin also frequently wore it's crank on the outside rather than inside where they normally live. The dramatic appearance of this normally unseen component was accompanied by a loud bang, a left boot full of hot oil, followed by total silence Photos? I can't even take them of the present, never mind the future. Usually by the time I've got a camera ready it *is* the future, which is always too late, like it is for the ugly rat competition, which I must surely would have won except I'm so ugly no-one will lend me a digital camera or a scanner, and so even ugliness becomes a political issue, dominated by the poodles and running-dogs yapping around the wheels of the Juggernaut. What's your excuse? No technology. What's a scanner ? I've only just got a monitor. It's been hell surfing without one.. This computer has Pentium 2, a CD player, an external modem, Win 98 and IE6 That's it !! It has no sound system, no printer outlet and no other facilities. It does what I want and any attempt to understand or upgrade it usually results in erasing all data and programmes, hard disk meltdown and total destruction of all my ISPs hardware if I am online at the time. I did once buy a couple of books .. 'The Internet for Dummies' and 'Understanding your computer' Didn't get beyond page one of either of them. What language are they written in ? I'm waiting for the English versions to come out. On the bright side, viruses usually ignore my computer as it is not worth bothering with. On the ugly side, I assumed Alan Marcy would enter. No contest really is there !! It's a done deal !! Fred tells me he hasn't entered but I've voted for him anyway. kind regards jim cheers, Ian "jim" wrote in message ... "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian YES, GO FOR IT !!!!! They are totally crap, but, at least, they are British !! Photo preamps seem like a good idea. They come in front of something you are about to do. You could look at the picture before you pressed the shutter and see something which hasn't happened yet before commiting it to the past. Heat it up if you like. I like mine at room temperature.. What is room temperature ?? Who's room and on what day ?? regards jim |
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#9
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"Lord Valve" wrote in message ... Ian Iveson wrote: I have several Lucas 6.3V regulators from assorted Ariel and Ajay bikes circa 1950. Can I use these for the heaters in my phono preamp? cheers, Ian Q: Why do the Brits drink warm beer? A: They have Lucas refrigerators... Lord Valve American We don't drink warm beer. Nothing is even slightly warm in this country. Inuit children come here to learn how to survive in extreme conditions. Having been refused entry to the Axis of Evil, Tony Blair has now applied to join the Arctic Circle regards jim |
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#10
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Hi RATs!
My KT88 SE glows and sings. Still playing with tuning Friends dying mysteriously is a normal thing in some professions. Control freaks are such a$$hole$. My MGA 1600 survived Minnesota winters. Lucas is more jokes than failures. The heater WAS a joke: the controls said Demist, and they meant it I added a NOSheater from an old Plymouth, mounted on the transmission tunnel. Nothing better than applied technology to save your freezing feet. The new Sony SS-MB150H bookshelves a delightful for $49./pair. Kevlar woofs. 50 kHz tweeter. The lit is (C) 2003. Happy Ears! Al Alan J. Marcy Phoenix, AZ PWC/mystic/Earhead |
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#11
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"jim" wrote in message ...
"john stewart" wrote in message ... jim wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping they chatter away happily. These old mechanical regs are suprisingly reliable and long lasting and were fitted to cars of the same era. People would'nt understand it today why a red light came up on the dash when the engine was idling and the cut out points opened. There's now so much crap on cars we're seeing 250Amp alternators with tooth belt drives to cope with the load and 150Ah batteries. You will soon see 36 volt (42 volt) electrical systems in cars to look after the greatley increased loads. Something to think about. John Stewart Hi, John, Sure. Manufacturers have, for some years now, been looking to move to 24V. It's been standard for years on trucks and makes a lot more sense. It's watts you're trying to move not amps, and some of the 12V wiring nowadays to fuseboxes and central distribution points is as thick as your little finger... Total loading is not of course the only problem. I can talk about this all day. I own a garage business. Vehicle electrical systems are generally reliable but every year we see additional knick knacks added which are increasingly becoming computer controlled. Often a central processor handles several tasks/functions. ABS, active suspension, traction control, engine management, Satnav, etc etc. Fault diagnosis is now a nightmare, particularly intermittent faults which never appear on test equipment in my workshops, but leap up and bite the driver, again, 10 minutes after he drove away. If a common processor is used, several systems may go out together. 30 years ago, an intermittent ignition fault could be cured by progressively replacing bits of the ignition system. If you replaced EVERYTHING, the total bill would only be about £20 and somewhere along the line the fault disappeared. Nowadays you could be into an £1100 management computer.. I have customer vehicles out there at the other side of 60,000 miles with the same intermittent faults they were born with which are completely undiagnosable. The best the owner can hope for is a complete failure/breakdown. Least a diagnosis is possible, then. I welcome progress but there is an old engineering adage.. The less there is, the less there is to go wrong... 42V ? I don't think they'll go that far. All over the UK, garages will be inundated with people who are getting shocks off their cars. 24V will do and at least 24v light bulbs are readily available kind regards jim One odd thing I have noticed on most newer cars (mostly GM),is that the sizes of the wire used for heavy loads like headlights,etc is like 20AWG!!!They get warm after a while! The headlight wires on my 67 Chevy are like 14awg,thats about the size of the alternator wire in newer cars.. WTH is up with that? Go pop the hood of a new car and look at some of the wires.They seem greatly undersized to me,but who knows. |
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#12
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"jim" wrote...
Production engineering it's called. Nothing to do with engineering. Not where I came from (Toyota Motor Sales USA). Maybe that's why their quality is so good. Design it backwards with a computer and an accounting package to end up with a minimum material/minimum cost/maximum profit/ acceptable design life/answer to lighting up a headlamp The word 'quality' has now been replaced with 'how little can I get away with' As someone who works in the auto industry, I can tell you that it's as much a weight issue as a $$ issue. Sure, cost is an important factor, but the weight of the harness, and the fact that the size of the wire harness dictates the size of some other components (where the wiring has to be routed) are the dominant factor (at least at Toyota). Also, the 42 volt vehicle IS coming, I read more about it all the time in my SAE monthly journal. The problem with the 12 volt standard is the current requirements for the explosion of electronic devices modern vehicles carry. Not only does the proliferation mean more (maybe larger too) wires, it means the alternator has to have incredible output. More output means more heat, and the heat limits are fast approaching with some of these 150 & up amp alternators. Stator temps are a critical issue for longevity. BTW, the Toyota Prius hybrid runs off 600 volts or so on the latest model. And yes, there is a serious shock hazard for the untrained repairer or fire/rescue person who takes a big cutter to a chunk of harness to remove a trapped occupant (Toyota has provided safety info to public safety depts. here in the US). Also, I can't vouch for GM, but Toyota went to a higher grade insulating material for its body and chassis wiring over 12 years ago, which allowed them to reduce the wire bundle sizes significantly. I can't recall what the material was (it wasn't Tefzel like is used on aircraft), sorry, but it was noticeably thinner than the prior PVC insulation. As far as engine management systems go, if you want the kind of incredible ratio of horsepower to engine displacement that exists today AND high fuel economy, AND smooth performance/super driveability under any operating conditions AND low emissions, then computerized engine management is a necessity. And as self-diagnostics have improved, the number of "unfixable" issues has dropped like a rock. Remember in the "good old days" when it was damp/rainy and the distributor cap got moist inside and the car wouldn't run (or ran very rough)? Remember putting points and a condenser in every 10,000 miles? Remember carburetor icing, sticky choke blades, lead fouled spark plugs, sticking needles & seats causing engine flooding, vapor lock, etc? I do, and I don't miss them a bit! My $0.02 worth anyway... Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane |
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#13
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Hi RATs!
Down to 60.5 ohm 30W shared cathode bias resistor on KT88s  Every car problem is the same. The good stuff is driving like mad on deserted dirt roads with a beautiful young woman and scaring the hell out of cows and chickens as you roar past at or near redline. Splashing thru mudholes and kicking up gravel. If you have never passed a dead RR, relax, I have. Cars ALL fall asleep, sometimes The statistics are just exciting to the statisticiansBeethoven's music seems to like More Current ! Happy Ears! Al Alan J. Marcy Phoenix, AZ PWC/mystic/Earhead |
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#14
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"john stewart" wrote in message ... jim wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping they chatter away happily. These old mechanical regs are suprisingly reliable and long lasting and were fitted to cars of the same era. People would'nt understand it today why a red light came up on the dash when the engine was idling and the cut out points opened. There's now so much crap on cars we're seeing 250Amp alternators with tooth belt drives to cope with the load and 150Ah batteries. You will soon see 36 volt (42 volt) electrical systems in cars to look after the greatley increased loads. Something to think about. John Stewart Hi, John, Sure. Manufacturers have, for some years now, been looking to move to 24V. It's been standard for years on trucks and makes a lot more sense. It's watts you're trying to move not amps, and some of the 12V wiring nowadays to fuseboxes and central distribution points is as thick as your little finger... Total loading is not of course the only problem. I can talk about this all day. I own a garage business. Vehicle electrical systems are generally reliable but every year we see additional knick knacks added which are increasingly becoming computer controlled. Often a central processor handles several tasks/functions. ABS, active suspension, traction control, engine management, Satnav, etc etc. Fault diagnosis is now a nightmare, particularly intermittent faults which never appear on test equipment in my workshops, but leap up and bite the driver, again, 10 minutes after he drove away. If a common processor is used, several systems may go out together. 30 years ago, an intermittent ignition fault could be cured by progressively replacing bits of the ignition system. If you replaced EVERYTHING, the total bill would only be about £20 and somewhere along the line the fault disappeared. Nowadays you could be into an £1100 management computer.. I have customer vehicles out there at the other side of 60,000 miles with the same intermittent faults they were born with which are completely undiagnosable. The best the owner can hope for is a complete failure/breakdown. Least a diagnosis is possible, then. I welcome progress but there is an old engineering adage.. The less there is, the less there is to go wrong... 42V ? I don't think they'll go that far. All over the UK, garages will be inundated with people who are getting shocks off their cars. 24V will do and at least 24v light bulbs are readily available kind regards jim |
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#15
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"jim" wrote...
As someone who has also been down at the sharp end of the auto industry for 23 years and is still there, I can't see any wiring weight problem relevant to UK volume car production other than weight equals cost equals profit so should be minimized. That's not the way the top producers work. One time at a technical group meeting we were addressed by a gentleman from Nippondenso, a Toyota "partner" company that made a whole bunch of parts for them. He was doing backflips because they got 4 OUNCES of weight out of the air cleaner element and improved it's filtration! Every bit of weight is critical, don't believe for a moment that it isn't. Despite the hype and the marketing this is not the lunar orbiter No, a current vehicle has WAY more computer power than the orbiter did, WAY more. The marketing boys will sell it to you as the lunar orbiter, but we're down here back on Earth. Again at my old company, quality was #1 - no doubt about it. That's why Toyota will sell more cars in the US than any other maker this year (that's how it looks at this point). Yes, marketing is important, but quality is what retains owners. I'll never forget one time when a new model came out our Chicago Region office was responsible for initial quality monitoring at our West Chicago rail yard. We spotted a misfit (small, but definitely misfit) in a rear floor carpet and reported it to Japan by FAX. Production of the carpet was changed in 3 days! And it wasn't changed to reduce cost, it was changed to improve quality. Amazing, I think! It would seem from here that the UK producers don't have that same drive. So many have folded up their tents, and current production stuff is still "dodgy" - I have a Land Rover dealer as a client. They aren't proud that only Hummer was lower rated for quality... 42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Well, that's fine for you to feel that way, but a 42 volt standard has already been developed by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineering) and it's in the pipeline. It's a done deal! As a member I get to read up on new developments in the monthly magazine they send me. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? Nowhere now, this is an issue that has to be addressed to implement the new standard. But it's no big deal. Regarding the 600 volt hybrid Prius... What about the shock hazard to the trapped occupant. ?? He survives the auto accident to get the electric chair ?? Well, that's theoretically possible. But designing protection for the occupants can be accomplished just as it has been with other dangers such as fuel system protection, etc. The repair person or rescuer will be working in places the occupant rarely if ever even sees, let alone handles. Regarding improved smaller body/chassis wiring... Whole point I was making.. Let's save a few cents per car. Where I worked that was a great idea too - but no compromise in quality was allowed! But the weight reduction was a primary design goal as new models were being developed. The weight of a vehicle wiring loom is a negligible percentage of the total gross weight. Sorry - dead wrong. Read my air cleaner story above for an example. Small % yes, but nothing is negligible in the weight arena. Reducing it's weight by say 10% is irrelevant other than from a cost saving point of view Again, dead wrong. Less weight translates into a huge number of areas that yield performance and/or fuel economy gains. The fuel economy bonus is a spin off. What drives all this stuff is EU/US legislation on exhaust emmisions.. You don't match those figures. You don't sell cars. And in the US we have CAFE laws -Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Same deal - don't meet the cafe standard, you got a problem!! So fuel economy is no spin-off, that's for sure. BTW, the CAFE laws apply to cars only, not trucks. This loophole is one the automakers are really fighting to keep open. No sir, fuel economy is not an afterthought here. Regarding quality... Not where I'm standing, on the workshop floor, talking to the customers, it hasn't !! It's just changed.. Basic reliability has improved dramatically.. but... We're now into intermittent airbag/ABS lights and engine management systems which drop out and latch on to fixed 'get you home' settings for no identifiable reason.. Immobilizer and locking systems which won't let you in or let you start the engine. Bulb failure lights which tell you a bulbs blown when it hasn't. Electric windows which go down and won't go back up. When it's raining !! All makes all models.... Well, I see VERY little of it with the top quality producers (Honda, Toyota, Nissan). With all due respect, I see lots of that kind of stuff on European cars in general (including BMW, Mercedes, etc.). Cars that won't run due to multiple failed ignition coils (VW, Audi), BMW heater cores that burst inside the passenger compartment, window mechanisms that fall apart on VW, BMW, Mercedes. On Land Rover, EVERYTHING breaks and often (Jags are better, but they still are poor quality). These are not old cars, I'm talking 2000 & up models. You were in production..?? I think we may be on opposite sides of the fence. I worked for both retailers and manufacturers. I was an auto technician and manager in my retail auto career, then I joined Toyota Motor Sales (the manufacturer) as a Field Technical Specialist/ Technical Training Instructor in 1978. I was the Regional Manager for Service in the Midwestern USA from 1985 until I left Toyota in 1991. Now I have my own consulting company, I work with automotive and aircraft retail servicers and parts departments. I can tell you the way Toyota (the product line I know best) does things (at least in the USA) is WAY different than what you describe. I truly believe that's why they are so successful. I'm out here trying to climb an immense mountain of manufacturers bull**** and break it gently to people that this is only a car and they still go wrong. Today, however, they can go very expensively wrong. Well, I wish I could help, but in my opinion there's no excuse for poor quality. The leading makers have excellent quality - and I feel sorry for people who have to work on the "lesser" brands. Best of luck to you! Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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#16
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"jim" wrote
...[lots of true things about Toyotas]... You are both right, of course. Production Engineering units typically answer to both the Quality Assurance and the Production people, amongst others. But only Design people are responsible for *improving* the quality of the finished product. Everyone else is charged with maintaining it within specifications. They are all rewarded for increasing production or lowering costs. The balance of power is on the side of cheapness quick. Maximum production with zero defects, not maximum quality. Call it the dialectic, call it Zen, whatever you like, but I used to be a part of my vehicles. Now I can't be bothered with them. Same with computers. Taught the subject for years and slowly lost interest and involvement. Same with amplifiers. That's why many here are into valves. I can tolerate being bored with my fridge or washing machine, but not with my music collection. That would be stupid. I can always fix the AJS with baling wire and rizlas. It is 50 next year. Mostly the original metal in the original shapes still performing just as poorly as ever. The Kawasaki was a revelation. Nothing ever went wrong...never even blew a lightbulb. Didn't need to carry the wire anymore. Went like a rocket for several years then it was worn out. Totally, all the way through, nothing salvageable and I didn't care when it got stolen. That's exactly what makes production engineers proud...me too, I must admit, I get a kick out of the process of optimisation. That's why the term "bean counters" is so daft, as if beans don't need counting. Toyotas are necessary, but consumers find them very, very boring. cheers, Ian |
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#17
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"TubeGarden" wrote in message ... Hi RATs! My KT88 SE glows and sings. Still playing with tuning Friends dying mysteriously is a normal thing in some professions. Control freaks are such a$$hole$. My MGA 1600 survived Minnesota winters. Lucas is more jokes than failures. The heater WAS a joke: the controls said Demist, and they meant it I addeda NOS heater from an old Plymouth, mounted on the transmission tunnel. Nothing better than applied technology to save your freezing feet. Been there, Alan, MGA 1600 Mk2 1622 cc Fixed head coupe UK reg No 11 FON Fixed head MGAs were quite warm with the Smiths heater on full wack. Soft tops were more draughty and cold. 3 years, moved on to 159 PYB ... Austin Healey 100/6.. No need for a heater. The big six kept you warm..... then on to RAL 402B ...... Healey 3000 Mk 3...... Engine management ?? I just stuffed my boot in the carpet and let it go !!!! Got into E types and Alfa Romeos after that but this is way off topic....... regards jim The new Sony SS-MB150H bookshelves a delightful for $49./pair. Kevlar woofs. 50 kHz tweeter. The lit is (C) 2003. Happy Ears! Al Alan J. Marcy Phoenix, AZ PWC/mystic/Earhead |
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#18
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"Nothing40" wrote in message om... "jim" wrote in message ... "john stewart" wrote in message ... jim wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message ... The regulators are fine, after a spot of oil and contact re-gapping they chatter away happily. These old mechanical regs are suprisingly reliable and long lasting and were fitted to cars of the same era. People would'nt understand it today why a red light came up on the dash when the engine was idling and the cut out points opened. There's now so much crap on cars we're seeing 250Amp alternators with tooth belt drives to cope with the load and 150Ah batteries. You will soon see 36 volt (42 volt) electrical systems in cars to look after the greatley increased loads. Something to think about. John Stewart Hi, John, Sure. Manufacturers have, for some years now, been looking to move to 24V. It's been standard for years on trucks and makes a lot more sense. It's watts you're trying to move not amps, and some of the 12V wiring nowadays to fuseboxes and central distribution points is as thick as your little finger... Total loading is not of course the only problem. I can talk about this all day. I own a garage business. Vehicle electrical systems are generally reliable but every year we see additional knick knacks added which are increasingly becoming computer controlled. Often a central processor handles several tasks/functions. ABS, active suspension, traction control, engine management, Satnav, etc etc. Fault diagnosis is now a nightmare, particularly intermittent faults which never appear on test equipment in my workshops, but leap up and bite the driver, again, 10 minutes after he drove away. If a common processor is used, several systems may go out together. 30 years ago, an intermittent ignition fault could be cured by progressively replacing bits of the ignition system. If you replaced EVERYTHING, the total bill would only be about £20 and somewhere along the line the fault disappeared. Nowadays you could be into an £1100 management computer.. I have customer vehicles out there at the other side of 60,000 miles with the same intermittent faults they were born with which are completely undiagnosable. The best the owner can hope for is a complete failure/breakdown. Least a diagnosis is possible, then. I welcome progress but there is an old engineering adage.. The less there is, the less there is to go wrong... 42V ? I don't think they'll go that far. All over the UK, garages will be inundated with people who are getting shocks off their cars. 24V will do and at least 24v light bulbs are readily available kind regards jim One odd thing I have noticed on most newer cars (mostly GM),is that the sizes of the wire used for heavy loads like headlights,etc is like 20AWG!!!They get warm after a while! The headlight wires on my 67 Chevy are like 14awg,thats about the size of the alternator wire in newer cars.. WTH is up with that? Go pop the hood of a new car and look at some of the wires.They seem greatly undersized to me,but who knows. Production engineering it's called Nothing to do with engineering. Design it backwards with a computer and an accounting package to end up with a minimum material/minimum cost/maximum profit/ acceptable design life/ answer to lighting up a headlamp The word 'quality' has now been replaced with 'how little can I get away with' regards jim |
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"Jim McShane" wrote in message news  "jim" wrote... Production engineering it's called. Nothing to do with engineering. Not where I came from (Toyota Motor Sales USA). Maybe that's why their quality is so good. Design it backwards with a computer and an accounting package to end up with a minimum material/minimum cost/maximum profit/ acceptable design life/answer to lighting up a headlamp The word 'quality' has now been replaced with 'how little can I get away with' As someone who works in the auto industry, I can tell you that it's as much a weight issue as a $$ issue. Sure, cost is an important factor, but the weight of the harness, and the fact that the size of the wire harness dictates the size of some other components (where the wiring has to be routed) are the dominant factor (at least at Toyota). As someone who has also been down at the sharp end of the auto industry for 23 years and is still there, I can't see any wiring weight problem relevant to UK volume car production other than weight equals cost equals profit so should be minimized. Despite the hype and the marketing this is not the lunar orbiter it is a mass produced consumer durable....like a washing machine The marketing boys will sell it to you as the lunar orbiter, but we're down here back on Earth. Also, the 42 volt vehicle IS coming, I read more about it all the time in my SAE monthly journal. The problem with the 12 volt standard is the current requirements for the explosion of electronic devices modern vehicles carry. Not only does the proliferation mean more (maybe larger too) wires, it means the alternator has to have incredible output. More output means more heat, and the heat limits are fast approaching with some of these 150 & up amp alternators. Stator temps are a critical issue for longevity. 42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Doubling the voltage halves the current and we can use sensible size wiring. We can use the wiring we've got now. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? 24V is truck standard. Makes sense to use it. BTW, the Toyota Prius hybrid runs off 600 volts or so on the latest model. Sure it does. Honda's gas/electro wagon is the same. And yes, there is a serious shock hazard for the untrained repairer or fire/rescue person who takes a big cutter to a chunk of harness to remove a trapped occupant (Toyota has provided safety info to public safety depts. here in the US). What about the shock hazard to the trapped occupant. ?? He survives the auto accident to get the electric chair ?? Also, I can't vouch for GM, but Toyota went to a higher grade insulating material for its body and chassis wiring over 12 years ago, which allowed them to reduce the wire bundle sizes significantly. I can't recall what the material was (it wasn't Tefzel like is used on aircraft), sorry, but it was noticeably thinner than the prior PVC insulation. Whole point I was making.. Let's save a few cents per car. The weight of a vehicle wiring loom is a negligible percentage of the total gross weight. Reducing it's weight by say 10% is irrelevant other than from a cost saving point of view. In just the same way as computerized paint spray systems vary the thickness of the paint finish over a vehicle depending on the expected wear (it's thicker round the door handles, the wheel arches and the front edge of the hood/bonnet) and doesn't paint things which are to be subsequently covered by trim panels. Paint on the roof is particularly thin as expected abrasion is nil and cars don't corrode from the top downwards. If you're in volume production a few cents here and there times one million units is worth thinking about. Production engineering. How can I make it faster with the minimum of material and manpower input per unit. Don't blame me. Henry Ford started it with the 'T' at Highland Park As far as engine management systems go, if you want the kind of incredible ratio of horsepower to engine displacement that exists today AND high fuel economy, AND smooth performance/super driveability under any operating conditions AND low emissions, then computerized engine management is a necessity. Quite, given today's elevated combustion temperatures and lean mixtures you would not start today's car with a 1960s ignition system. Likewise you have no hope of achieving todays emission targets with a carburetter so engine management/ fuel injection/electronic ignition are inevitable.. The fuel economy bonus is a spin off. What drives all this stuff is EU/US legislation on exhaust emmisions.. You don't match those figures. You don't sell cars. And as self-diagnostics have improved, the number of "unfixable" issues has dropped like a rock. Not where I'm standing, on the workshop floor, talking to the customers, it hasn't !! It's just changed.. Basic reliability has improved dramatically.. but... We're now into intermittent airbag/ABS lights and engine management systems which drop out and latch on to fixed 'get you home' settings for no identifiable reason.. Immobilizer and locking systems which won't let you in or let you start the engine. Bulb failure lights which tell you a bulbs blown when it hasn't. Electric windows which go down and won't go back up. When it's raining !! All makes all models.... Remember in the "good old days" when it was damp/rainy and the distributor cap got moist inside and the car wouldn't run (or ran very rough)? Remember putting points and a condenser in every 10,000 miles? Remember carburetor icing, sticky choke blades, lead fouled spark plugs, sticking needles & seats causing engine flooding, vapor lock, etc? Neither do I and God forbid we ever go back there !!! 100% with you all the way. You were in production..?? I think we may be on opposite sides of the fence. I'm out here trying to climb an immense mountain of manufacturers bull**** and break it gently to people that this is only a car and they still go wrong. Today, however, they can go very expensively wrong Kind regards jim My $0.02 worth anyway... Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane |
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"Ian Iveson" wrote...
Production Engineering units typically answer to both the Quality Assurance and the Production people, amongst others. Correct. But only Design people are responsible for *improving* the quality of the finished product. Nope, not where I used to work. In fact, the company gave major awards for improvement to many a line worker. They often suggested design changes to the product that were adopted by the design teams. AND... ....any Toyota assembly line worker can shut down the entire line if needed - believe it or not. If he/she sees something wrong - they pull the plug! All of that is part of the continuous improvement philosophy they learned from Deming in the post war years, and have pursued with a vengeance ever since. They are all rewarded for increasing production or lowering costs. Yes, but not ONLY for those criteria. Besides, there are other ways to cut costs, it doesn't have to mean less resources for the vehicle build. Lowering warranty claims, reducing plant power and materials consumption, plant damage reduction, reducing waste disposal - all are valid ways to reduce the cost of production without compromising quality. The balance of power is on the side of cheapness quick. Maximum production with zero defects, not maximum quality. While it is true that at some point the overall design is a limiting factor, the number of improvements that can be made to improve quality of a given design is nearly infinite. And there is not an absolutely linear relationship between reducing cost and reducing quality. Toyotas are necessary, but consumers find them very, very boring. Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree. Driven a Lexus GS400 lately? But I understand what you are saying. When it comes to making a choice between "exciting" transportation and boring transportation, I'll take boring every time. I hope my next airplane flight is boring for sure! Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Doubling the voltage halves the current and we can use sensible size wiring. We can use the wiring we've got now. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? 24V is truck standard. Makes sense to use it. You're absolutely correct about the wire size being a major factor in the conversion to 42V - which as another poster also in the auto biz said IS coming.. no question.. this standard will allow less parasitic loss on the actual motor itself.. we'll see electric power steering pumps (already on a number of vehicles .. certain honda, bmw,and saturn models) maybe electric a/c compressors etc. etc. This will of course lower emmisions and increase fuel economy. But back to your light bulb statement, which is why I chose your post to respond to initially; My understanding is that at least at first all lighting will remain on a second 12V system. -Will |
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WILLIAM DOUCETTE wrote: 42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Doubling the voltage halves the current and we can use sensible size wiring. We can use the wiring we've got now. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? 24V is truck standard. Makes sense to use it. You're absolutely correct about the wire size being a major factor in the conversion to 42V - which as another poster also in the auto biz said IS coming.. no question.. this standard will allow less parasitic loss on the actual motor itself.. we'll see electric power steering pumps (already on a number of vehicles .. certain honda, bmw,and saturn models) maybe electric a/c compressors etc. etc. This will of course lower emmisions and increase fuel economy. One moment... why is it a "given" that it will lower emissions and increase fuel economy? Those functions are presently accomplished using a direct mechanical coupling. How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall efficiency? Cheers, Fred -- +--------------------------------------------+ | Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ | | Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk | +--------------------------------------------+ |
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How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall
efficiency? Hi RATs! Easy, the demand and supply are not synced in time It is cheap to charge a battery when supply is high and then demand whenever. Like my parallel LCLC power supplies Edging toward 0 bias for triode KT88 ... Happy Ears! Al Alan J. Marcy Phoenix, AZ PWC/mystic/Earhead |
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#24
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You're absolutely correct about the wire size being a major factor in
the conversion to 42V - which as another poster also in the auto biz said IS coming.. no question.. this standard will allow less parasitic loss on the actual motor itself.. we'll see electric power steering pumps (already on a number of vehicles .. certain honda, bmw,and saturn models) maybe electric a/c compressors etc. etc. This will of course lower emmisions and increase fuel economy. One moment... why is it a "given" that it will lower emissions and increase fuel economy? Those functions are presently accomplished using a direct mechanical coupling. How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall efficiency? Cheers, Fred It obviously can not increase "overall" efficiency in the purest sense. It will however make it easier for manufacturers to comply with current emissions standards (The flaws of these standards etc. etc. is another topic entirely - prob. for another NG ). More of the torque created by thecombustion process drives the wheels, in fact their idea is that all of it except the small amount needed to turn the alternator will be devoted to moving the vehicle. A higher output alternator doesn't leech more power from the crank than a lower one. It primarily has a different stator design, and although spinning it faster allows for increased output there is no question of it "stealing" more torque to induce more power. I had an early 80's toyota tercel a few years back - One drive belt, the alternator. No p/s no A/c.. Now that vehicle had some high marks in the "overall efficiency" category. -will |
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"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message ... WILLIAM DOUCETTE wrote: 42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Doubling the voltage halves the current and we can use sensible size wiring. We can use the wiring we've got now. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? 24V is truck standard. Makes sense to use it. You're absolutely correct about the wire size being a major factor in the conversion to 42V - which as another poster also in the auto biz said IS coming.. no question.. this standard will allow less parasitic loss on the actual motor itself.. we'll see electric power steering pumps (already on a number of vehicles .. certain honda, bmw,and saturn models) maybe electric a/c compressors etc. etc. This will of course lower emmisions and increase fuel economy. One moment... why is it a "given" that it will lower emissions and increase fuel economy? Those functions are presently accomplished using a direct mechanical coupling. How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall efficiency? Cheers, Fred -- +--------------------------------------------+ | Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ | | Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk | +--------------------------------------------+ An electrically driven power steering pump could remain off when it's not actually needed, and power up in response to demand. A mechanically driven pump runs (and uses engine power) whenever the engine is running. Jeff T |
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"Fred Nachbaur" wrote...
(Discussing automotive A/C compressors and power steering pumps) Those functions are presently accomplished using a direct mechanical coupling. How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall efficiency? Let me just use power steering as an example. A belt driven hydraulic pump runs all the time the engine is running, even though it is only required to supply pressure part of the time. An electric pump can activate on demand, saving the energy it took to run the pump unnecessarily. Also, even the 12 volt electric pumps and steering racks are lighter weight and more compact than a hydraulic pump. No spool or rotary hydraulic valving is needed on the steering box or rack to direct pressurization/oil flow. Less weight = less fuel consumption. 42 volt pumps will be lighter yet. The A/C compressor can be much more efficient, lighter, and more compact if it is able to run at a constant speed. It also eliminates the need for a clutch as is found on the current A/C compressors, reducing weight and bulk. Yet the compressor can cycle off if needed simply by turning off the electric motor, eliminating the small but significant drag of the clutch bearing and the drive belt. Make sense to you? Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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Jim McShane wrote: "Fred Nachbaur" wrote... (Discussing automotive A/C compressors and power steering pumps) Those functions are presently accomplished using a direct mechanical coupling. How can adding an intermediary energy conversion step increase overall efficiency? Let me just use power steering as an example. A belt driven hydraulic pump runs all the time the engine is running, even though it is only required to supply pressure part of the time. An electric pump can activate on demand, saving the energy it took to run the pump unnecessarily. Also, even the 12 volt electric pumps and steering racks are lighter weight and more compact than a hydraulic pump. No spool or rotary hydraulic valving is needed on the steering box or rack to direct pressurization/oil flow. Less weight = less fuel consumption. 42 volt pumps will be lighter yet. The A/C compressor can be much more efficient, lighter, and more compact if it is able to run at a constant speed. It also eliminates the need for a clutch as is found on the current A/C compressors, reducing weight and bulk. Yet the compressor can cycle off if needed simply by turning off the electric motor, eliminating the small but significant drag of the clutch bearing and the drive belt. Make sense to you? Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! Another advantage of going to a higher operating voltage is that the wire packing factor in motors, generators, alternators & transformers is better thru the use of smaller gauge wire in their rotors & stators. That translates to more performance in a package of given size/weight. There was a big improvement when North America went from 6 to 12 volts back in the days when I worked on cars. The auto today is a far better & safer product today than the stuff I got to work on. Thank God "they don't build cars like they used too"!!! Cheers, John Stewart |
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Toyota MADE great cars. Now they make cars with
great market appeal. You should have seen the result of the collision between my 1974 Toyota Celica, and a 2002 Toyota Camry. The 1974 Celica was known in the '70s as a car that was weak in a crash. Well,.... My Celica had a tiny little crease in the front fender, A broken running light, and a straightenable twist in the front bumper. The Camry lost its entire rear quarter (starting at the rear door) including its rear bumper. $600 damage vs $2500 damage. I drove away, the Camry was towed. Great improvement! Anyone care to bet on how many 2002 Camry's will still be on the road and in regular use in 2031? -Chuck Jim McShane wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote... Production Engineering units typically answer to both the Quality Assurance and the Production people, amongst others. Correct. But only Design people are responsible for *improving* the quality of the finished product. Nope, not where I used to work. In fact, the company gave major awards for improvement to many a line worker. They often suggested design changes to the product that were adopted by the design teams. AND... ...any Toyota assembly line worker can shut down the entire line if needed - believe it or not. If he/she sees something wrong - they pull the plug! All of that is part of the continuous improvement philosophy they learned from Deming in the post war years, and have pursued with a vengeance ever since. They are all rewarded for increasing production or lowering costs. Yes, but not ONLY for those criteria. Besides, there are other ways to cut costs, it doesn't have to mean less resources for the vehicle build. Lowering warranty claims, reducing plant power and materials consumption, plant damage reduction, reducing waste disposal - all are valid ways to reduce the cost of production without compromising quality. The balance of power is on the side of cheapness quick. Maximum production with zero defects, not maximum quality. While it is true that at some point the overall design is a limiting factor, the number of improvements that can be made to improve quality of a given design is nearly infinite. And there is not an absolutely linear relationship between reducing cost and reducing quality. Toyotas are necessary, but consumers find them very, very boring. Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree. Driven a Lexus GS400 lately? But I understand what you are saying. When it comes to making a choice between "exciting" transportation and boring transportation, I'll take boring every time. I hope my next airplane flight is boring for sure! Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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Chuck Harris wrote: Toyota MADE great cars. Now they make cars with great market appeal. You should have seen the result of the collision between my 1974 Toyota Celica, and a 2002 Toyota Camry. The 1974 Celica was known in the '70s as a car that was weak in a crash. Well,.... My Celica had a tiny little crease in the front fender, A broken running light, and a straightenable twist in the front bumper. The Camry lost its entire rear quarter (starting at the rear door) including its rear bumper. $600 damage vs $2500 damage. I drove away, the Camry was towed. Great improvement! Anyone care to bet on how many 2002 Camry's will still be on the road and in regular use in 2031? -Chuck Not very many around here. Toyotas only last around ten - fifteen years, not because they break, but because the bodies rust out. Same goes for Subarus. Hondas used to be famous for that also, but they seem to have fixed that sometime in the 90's. Cheers, Fred -- +--------------------------------------------+ | Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ | | Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: | | http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk | +--------------------------------------------+ |
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Thinking of what is on the road, has anyone out there ever
wondered where all the rubber lost from tires goes as they travel along? Must be at the roadside, I guess. Something to THINK about, John Stewart Jim McShane wrote: "Chuck Harris" and Fred Nachbaur wrote... The new Camry has 1/2 the thickness sheet metal the old Celica does... And the old Celica has 1/2 the thickness sheet metal my old '65 Dodges have.... All still on the road and in good condition. Not very many around here. Toyotas only last around ten - fifteen years, not because they break, but because the bodies rust out. Same goes for Subarus. Hondas used to be famous for that also, but they seem to have fixed that sometime in the 90's. Thickness is not the issue. Older Toyotas had real bad rust issues, especially in Canada and along the US Gulf coast. The # of tons/km of road salt Transport Canada uses is staggering, the cars are in a brine bath for the whole winter sometimes! But... In the early 1990s Toyota patented a sheet metal coating process (the coating is called Excelite) and rusting has virtually completely stopped. Now the same gauge metal will go for many many years corrosion free. Other makers such as Honda developed comparable processes/coatings too. Look at the exhaust system too. Toyota uses stainless steel (as do many other brands) and the exhaust and muffler business has been dying ever since. The metal is not thicker, but is VERY corrosion resistant. It's no accident Midas now emphasizes the other work (besides exhaust) they do. Some body areas also use high strength alloys too, so thickness is NOT a gauge of durability anymore Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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"Jim McShane" wrote in message ... "jim" wrote... As someone who has also been down at the sharp end of the auto industry for 23 years and is still there, I can't see any wiring weight problem relevant to UK volume car production other than weight equals cost equals profit so should be minimized. That's not the way the top producers work. One time at a technical group meeting we were addressed by a gentleman from Nippondenso, a Toyota "partner" company that made a whole bunch of parts for them. He was doing backflips because they got 4 OUNCES of weight out of the air cleaner element and improved it's filtration! Every bit of weight is critical, don't believe for a moment that it isn't. Despite the hype and the marketing this is not the lunar orbiter No, a current vehicle has WAY more computer power than the orbiter did, WAY more. The marketing boys will sell it to you as the lunar orbiter, but we're down here back on Earth. Again at my old company, quality was #1 - no doubt about it. That's why Toyota will sell more cars in the US than any other maker this year (that's how it looks at this point). Yes, marketing is important, but quality is what retains owners. I'll never forget one time when a new model came out our Chicago Region office was responsible for initial quality monitoring at our West Chicago rail yard. We spotted a misfit (small, but definitely misfit) in a rear floor carpet and reported it to Japan by FAX. Production of the carpet was changed in 3 days! And it wasn't changed to reduce cost, it was changed to improve quality. Amazing, I think! It would seem from here that the UK producers don't have that same drive. So many have folded up their tents, and current production stuff is still "dodgy" - I have a Land Rover dealer as a client. They aren't proud that only Hummer was lower rated for quality... 42 volt is uneccesary. 24v will do. Heating equals watts not volts. Well, that's fine for you to feel that way, but a 42 volt standard has already been developed by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineering) and it's in the pipeline. It's a done deal! As a member I get to read up on new developments in the monthly magazine they send me. Where do you buy 42V light bulbs ? Nowhere now, this is an issue that has to be addressed to implement the new standard. But it's no big deal. Regarding the 600 volt hybrid Prius... What about the shock hazard to the trapped occupant. ?? He survives the auto accident to get the electric chair ?? Well, that's theoretically possible. But designing protection for the occupants can be accomplished just as it has been with other dangers such as fuel system protection, etc. The repair person or rescuer will be working in places the occupant rarely if ever even sees, let alone handles. Regarding improved smaller body/chassis wiring... Whole point I was making.. Let's save a few cents per car. Where I worked that was a great idea too - but no compromise in quality was allowed! But the weight reduction was a primary design goal as new models were being developed. The weight of a vehicle wiring loom is a negligible percentage of the total gross weight. Sorry - dead wrong. Read my air cleaner story above for an example. Small % yes, but nothing is negligible in the weight arena. Reducing it's weight by say 10% is irrelevant other than from a cost saving point of view Again, dead wrong. Less weight translates into a huge number of areas that yield performance and/or fuel economy gains. The fuel economy bonus is a spin off. What drives all this stuff is EU/US legislation on exhaust emmisions.. You don't match those figures. You don't sell cars. And in the US we have CAFE laws -Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Same deal - don't meet the cafe standard, you got a problem!! So fuel economy is no spin-off, that's for sure. BTW, the CAFE laws apply to cars only, not trucks. This loophole is one the automakers are really fighting to keep open. No sir, fuel economy is not an afterthought here. Regarding quality... Not where I'm standing, on the workshop floor, talking to the customers, it hasn't !! It's just changed.. Basic reliability has improved dramatically.. but... We're now into intermittent airbag/ABS lights and engine management systems which drop out and latch on to fixed 'get you home' settings for no identifiable reason.. Immobilizer and locking systems which won't let you in or let you start the engine. Bulb failure lights which tell you a bulbs blown when it hasn't. Electric windows which go down and won't go back up. When it's raining !! All makes all models.... Well, I see VERY little of it with the top quality producers (Honda, Toyota, Nissan). With all due respect, I see lots of that kind of stuff on European cars in general (including BMW, Mercedes, etc.). Cars that won't run due to multiple failed ignition coils (VW, Audi), BMW heater cores that burst inside the passenger compartment, window mechanisms that fall apart on VW, BMW, Mercedes. On Land Rover, EVERYTHING breaks and often (Jags are better, but they still are poor quality). These are not old cars, I'm talking 2000 & up models. You were in production..?? I think we may be on opposite sides of the fence. I worked for both retailers and manufacturers. I was an auto technician and manager in my retail auto career, then I joined Toyota Motor Sales (the manufacturer) as a Field Technical Specialist/ Technical Training Instructor in 1978. I was the Regional Manager for Service in the Midwestern USA from 1985 until I left Toyota in 1991. Now I have my own consulting company, I work with automotive and aircraft retail servicers and parts departments. I can tell you the way Toyota (the product line I know best) does things (at least in the USA) is WAY different than what you describe. I truly believe that's why they are so successful. I'm out here trying to climb an immense mountain of manufacturers bull**** and break it gently to people that this is only a car and they still go wrong. Today, however, they can go very expensively wrong. Well, I wish I could help, but in my opinion there's no excuse for poor quality. The leading makers have excellent quality - and I feel sorry for people who have to work on the "lesser" brands. Best of luck to you! Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! I am beginning to see a picture here. Your comments on vehicles produced here are entirely correct. This is what I see every day. It is hard to remain upbeat when faced with continuing, repetitive failure of the same component/system. Examination of the failed component usually reveals minimalist design and engineering rather than an assembly line problem. The replacement part is identical to the failed one and can be expected to last the same length of time. What people may not realise is that the manufacturers don't make cars. They assemble parts from outside suppliers, none of whom make a car, but make all the parts for all cars.. Bosch, Delco, Nippon Denso, Lucas, Carello, Goodyear, etc.. Look around a car and the component manufacturers names are all there. The 'get it right' ethos is not the same here. We also use UK/EU component suppliers. The financial pressures exerted by the vehicle manufacturers to produce within a cost may result in cost cutting. Toyota have an assembly plant here in Derby. This got round the problem of import restrictions from Japan and was O.Kd on the basis that a percentage of the components had to be sourced from UK manufacturers.. There is a story that Lucas were asked to tender for supplying complete sub assembled instrument panels complete with wiring, bulbs etc and were asked to state an expected failure/rejection rate. The story goes that Lucas came up with a figure of 4%. Toyota rejected this and asked them to have a rethink. Lucas came back with a figure of 1%.. Nippon Denso's normal figure was apparently something like 0.01% !!! In the UK we are very good at producing low volume, high quality, handmade stuff. Formula one race technolgy is here. Even Penske are based here I believe. We are not very good at mass producing anything however. The picture here is just not the same as you are painting it... As Ian says, we are both right. We're standing in different countries. kind regards jim |
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Hi John,
A number of years ago I lived in a housing development that was entirely too close to I95, the major N-S artery on the east coast of the US. Dust for us was a fine black powder. Maybe the result of tires? -Chuck john stewart wrote: Thinking of what is on the road, has anyone out there ever wondered where all the rubber lost from tires goes as they travel along? Must be at the roadside, I guess. Something to THINK about, John Stewart Jim McShane wrote: |
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Chuck Harris wrote: Hi John, A number of years ago I lived in a housing development that was entirely too close to I95, the major N-S artery on the east coast of the US. Dust for us was a fine black powder. Maybe the result of tires? That's what happens to tires, they become dust. Thee were made of dust, and to dust thy shall return. But in that black dust, perhaps there is a small % of asbestos dust from all the worn out brake linings, and other ****e which couldn't be healthy, even if asbestos has been outlawed now. So returning to dust for us might be hastened if we spent long enough beside a freeway. Give me rolling paddocks of bluegrass green, and all is quiet, but for cattle lowing in the lane, and free me from the insanity of witnessing the stupidity of choked roads. Darn, I must be dreamin again.... Patrick Turner. -Chuck john stewart wrote: Thinking of what is on the road, has anyone out there ever wondered where all the rubber lost from tires goes as they travel along? Must be at the roadside, I guess. Something to THINK about, John Stewart Jim McShane wrote: |
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Hi Jim,
I thought better of this article immediately after I posted, and cancelled it... but apparently it got thru anyway. Most of what I said is true, but, of course, there is the matter of the ability to better regulate the compressors/pumps to match the load that comes with electric control. I don't know if this "improvement" equals or betters the losses resulting from the extra energy conversions. But I am sure that the engineers at the various auto manufacturers have investigated this issue at depth. We can all do without the "horse hockey"s, of course ;-) Jim McShane wrote: The first example of this kind of thinking most people saw was the front wheel drive car with its transversely mounted engine/transmission/ differential assembly. Partially wrong - transversely mounted powertrains do not use an expensive and heavy differential. The final drive is not a ring and pinion, it is a simple helical cut final drive gear set. Both do have a spider gear set for obvious reasons. I am not sure what you think is wrong about my above statement. "Differential" has to do with allowing the wheels to operate at different speeds without skidding. How it is done is largely a matter of design esthetics. Front wheel drive cars have an integral engine/transmission/ differential assembly as I said. Because the engine was transversely mounted, it was horribly inconvenient to use a belt driven fan to cool the radiator. So the electric radiator fan was developed.... And another 30A was added to the alternator load. But the average load is MUCH less, since the fan's duty cycle is much less than 100%. At highway speeds the fan may never run. And BTW, many rear drive vehicles used an auxiliary fan too increase airflow with the A/C on (or in unusually heavy cooling load conditions). Agreed, but with the thermostatically regulated belt drive fans the same result was achieved. In both cases however, the waterpump is kept pumping at full capacity. The alternator has to be sized to run the fan continuously, as that is what happens on a very hot summer's day at less than highway speed. The situation will be even worse when the AC becomes electric. There's a lot more than meets the eye sometimes. Absolutely! -Chuck |
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Chuck Harris wrote in message ...
Toyota MADE great cars. Now they make cars with great market appeal. Agreed..My Dad's,ermm '86 Camry? is a great car,and has plenty of "oomph" with the V6,I was impressed.. It is finally in need of a new headgasket,first major problem over the years.. A friends (then) Brand new 02 Camry however, is a complete heap.: Sunroof broken twice,serious clutch/tranny issues after ~200 miles,passenger window got stuck down,and had black tar-goo all over the glass,..engine light all the time,etc,etc,etc..all within the first 2 months.It was(and still is)in the shop more than it was driven.(not an exaggration!) Not to mention it's gutless(4cyl).Good on gas mileage,But it could use some help.It feels like you are sitting in a soda can on wheels..plasticy,and flimsy.. (I thought I was going to rip the door panel off when I closed the door!) One newer car I was impressed with was the New Beetle Turbo S. 1.8L-Turbo,180HP with a 6 speed,it scoots! Plus it feels solid! It doesn't flex and creak when you go over bumps,the doors aren't gonna come off in your hand,etc. Well made,nice solid feel.(Leave it to those Germans!) My girlfriend's has been in the shop for minor things (spoiler was stuck in the up position,etc.) nothing too major. Most new cars are just too "cheap" feeling to me..especialy for $20-30K Bah! I could easily buy another nice classic for half of that..and use the rest for gas ;-) Ohh,or a '32 Ford.. *drool* You should have seen the result of the collision between my 1974 Toyota Celica, and a 2002 Toyota Camry. The 1974 Celica was known in the '70s as a car that was weak in a crash. Well,.... My Celica had a tiny little crease in the front fender, A broken running light, and a straightenable twist in the front bumper. The Camry lost its entire rear quarter (starting at the rear door) including its rear bumper. $600 damage vs $2500 damage. I drove away, the Camry was towed. Great improvement! Anyone care to bet on how many 2002 Camry's will still be on the road and in regular use in 2031? -Chuck Jim McShane wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote... Production Engineering units typically answer to both the Quality Assurance and the Production people, amongst others. Correct. But only Design people are responsible for *improving* the quality of the finished product. Nope, not where I used to work. In fact, the company gave major awards for improvement to many a line worker. They often suggested design changes to the product that were adopted by the design teams. AND... ...any Toyota assembly line worker can shut down the entire line if needed - believe it or not. If he/she sees something wrong - they pull the plug! All of that is part of the continuous improvement philosophy they learned from Deming in the post war years, and have pursued with a vengeance ever since. They are all rewarded for increasing production or lowering costs. Yes, but not ONLY for those criteria. Besides, there are other ways to cut costs, it doesn't have to mean less resources for the vehicle build. Lowering warranty claims, reducing plant power and materials consumption, plant damage reduction, reducing waste disposal - all are valid ways to reduce the cost of production without compromising quality. The balance of power is on the side of cheapness quick. Maximum production with zero defects, not maximum quality. While it is true that at some point the overall design is a limiting factor, the number of improvements that can be made to improve quality of a given design is nearly infinite. And there is not an absolutely linear relationship between reducing cost and reducing quality. Toyotas are necessary, but consumers find them very, very boring. Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree. Driven a Lexus GS400 lately? But I understand what you are saying. When it comes to making a choice between "exciting" transportation and boring transportation, I'll take boring every time. I hope my next airplane flight is boring for sure! Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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Hello Nothing,
You wrote... A friends (then) Brand new 02 Camry however, is a complete heap.: Sunroof broken twice, serious clutch/tranny issues after ~200 miles,passenger window got stuck down,and had black tar-goo all over the glass,..engine light all the time,etc,etc, etc..all within the first 2 months.It was(and still is) in the shop more than it was driven.(not an exaggration!) FYI, your friend's Camry is suspect to me. Toyota imported/built VERY VERY few manual tranny Camrys, and normally the 4 cyl. in those cars can easily and often is mistaken for a 6. The goo in the door and the window problem lead me to believe this vehicle was not "factory fresh" when it was purchased. Even if purchased new, I might be tempted to research and see if the vehicle had any "incidents" before delivery - I'd be especially looking for "rustproofing" material applied by some one other than the factory. I've seen these symptoms many times from poor/sloppy application of that useless stuff. If that's the case, it's not the car's fault. If he/she didn't buy it brand new I'll bet that was a flood damage car or damaged in some way prior to the purchase. If it was bought new, your friend would have been wise to exercise his/her Lemon Law rights. Why would they not do so unless there was some reason not to? Methinks we're not getting the whole story on this car here... Oh, and from the previous post... My Celica had a tiny little crease in the front fender, A broken running light, and a straightenable twist in the front bumper. The Camry lost its entire rear quarter starting at the rear door) including its rear bumper. $600 damage vs $2500 damage. I drove away, the Camry was towed. Great improvement! Yes, a great improvement! The design of newer vehicles is such that they are built to absorb the impacts rather than pass them on to the vehicle occupants. It's not just Toyotas either, all late model stuff is designed to buckle the metal to absorb impact. In your specific case I can tell you the quarters are built with a specific "bend" point engineered into them. Like so much engineering, it's always a tradeoff. Yes, the sheet metal on the Camry (or Accord or Altima or ??) is more likely to get damaged, but in a hard hit I'd MUCH rather be in the Camry than the old Celica. I owned a '74 and liked it a lot, but it was nowhere near as well engineered as the '02 Camry. The engineers have decided (with both regulatory and market forces driving them) to sacrifice metal instead of occupants. Oh, one last thing - a poster wrote... The 1974 Celica was known in the '70s as a car that was weak in a crash. I'd like to know how that was "known". The most common source of that sort of info back then was American brand car salesmen. That was also the widely held perception about unibody constructed vehicles. If it didn't have a big-ass frame under it, it was weak! Wrong, but widely believed. Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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Hi Ned,
Do Priuses have those .1 ohm thousand watt braking resistors hanging under them, too? ;-) Hee! I don't THINK so, but hey, they do have regenerative braking. Hmmm...maybe Kapton (used a lot in speaker voice coils) or Nomex (used a lot in transformers)? I just can't recall, my mind is blank on that. you could be right, but I just don't remember. Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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"Jim McShane" wrote
Nope, not where I used to work. In fact, the company gave major awards for improvement to many a line worker. They often suggested design changes to the product that were adopted by the design teams. AND... OK...but... ...any Toyota assembly line worker can shut down the entire line if needed - believe it or not. If he/she sees something wrong - they pull the plug! Oooh. I didn't know that...crikey. I can't see how they would get away with that here. A single worker would be far too scared, and collective labour would stop for tea. Yes, but not ONLY for those criteria. Besides, there are other ways to cut costs, it doesn't have to mean less resources for the vehicle build. Lowering warranty claims, reducing plant power and materials consumption, plant damage reduction, reducing waste disposal - all are valid ways to reduce the cost of production without compromising quality. Right! I don't mean to contradict what you say. I love this stuff, it's my vocation too. I hope my next airplane flight is boring for sure! Depends what you fly in. With an airbus, interesting means unsafe, as a bunch of French politicians and their pilot discovered after they made an unauthorised detour to an airshow, to show off the new plane. The pilot overrode the computer to do a low pass, and crashed. The planes are so optimised they only work within strict limits, and the pilot's judgement is not to be trusted. Tim, OTOH, could fly himself in something capable of being interesting and reliable at the same time, although he would miss much of the anxiety concerning incompetent air traffic control, hi-jack, and surface-to-air missiles. Or you could drive the Lexus if the roads were empty and the right shape. Quality should be much more than zero defects, and a reliability curve that runs flat at unity for X years before dropping to zero in the following six months. Lexus was a deliberate departure so that Toyota could address the issue of "quality of experience", without blurring their own brand's definition of the word. It is very interesting to see the interplay here between production engineer and the end-user supplier. Several issues are intertwined. Toyota have the best reliability record in the UK AFAIK so I am a little surprised by Jim's experience. It is true that manufacturing quality here is not always what it is elsewhere. This is for two main reasons, both related to the plot. First, there remains a "craft" reaction to deskilling of labour, perhaps overcome by Toyota UK but not by its local suppliers. Second, there is still a strong resistance to the "Honda City" approach to social organisation. We don't like all this robot stuff. We don't generally want robot cars or to become robots ourselves. The further North the worse we get. The Romans had the same trouble. Nissan chose the North here and suffered badly in consequence. Most cars in inner Bradford are Toyotas, with Honda and Nissan also evident, but there is a stark and obvious change as you enter non-Muslim areas, where most are European. The Toyota Carina is a devout car. Perhaps they are big in Salt Lake City. There is a lot of culture in a Toyota, but it's not mine. You are absolutely right in all you say, although I might ask what the hit rate is for the adoption of lowly workers' contribution to design. Certainly they are not allowed to introduce changes on their own, willy nilly, and would certainly be sacked rather than rewarded if they did. So the emphasis for them is on how to improve the way it *is*. They aren't going to post ideas about how the car could be more exciting, or how to stop winding up the dealers with niggles they can't fix. I wondered BTW, why trains didn't have drive-shafts to all the axles from the unit at the front...but all those efficiency equations became out of date when the lines were electrified. Also about efficiency. I assume that every piece of modern automotive engineering is for a sound reason, within the defined role of the vehicle and the current economics of raw materials. I do wonder though how much the apparent improvements in efficiency add up in a wider context. How much simply arises from the narrowing of user requirements and how much is at a greater total cost of resources? If I work for a company like Toyota, then I end up needing that kind of car, which does one thing very efficiently, but is crap at anything else, and which alienates me from the process of driving, and which contains heaps of plastics and other economically volatile, non-renewable materials. The thing that frightens us most was summed up nicely by Marx and Engels: "There is a spectre hanging over Europe, the spectre of Communism". None of us looks forward to losing our souls in some social machine. Wires can't multiply and get thinner forever. Once you've multiplexed and neural-networked and interfaced with the global guidance and maintenance network there is not much further to go. Like temperature, human freedom has an absolute zero. Then we will be totally efficient and without defect. Everyone in the supply chain will then be completely powerless if something does go wrong. Same fear we have with MS. It's Sunday. My local electronics store is crammed full of gold-plated OFC double-heavy-duty car audio connectors. I wonder if this stuff affects their Toyota warranties? cheers, Ian in message m... "Ian Iveson" wrote... Production Engineering units typically answer to both the Quality Assurance and the Production people, amongst others. Correct. But only Design people are responsible for *improving* the quality of the finished product. All of that is part of the continuous improvement philosophy they learned from Deming in the post war years, and have pursued with a vengeance ever since. They are all rewarded for increasing production or lowering costs. The balance of power is on the side of cheapness quick. Maximum production with zero defects, not maximum quality. While it is true that at some point the overall design is a limiting factor, the number of improvements that can be made to improve quality of a given design is nearly infinite. And there is not an absolutely linear relationship between reducing cost and reducing quality. Toyotas are necessary, but consumers find them very, very boring. Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree. Driven a Lexus GS400 lately? But I understand what you are saying. When it comes to making a choice between "exciting" transportation and boring transportation, I'll take boring every time. Jim McShane Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp? Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock! |
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On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 14:50:53 +0000, Jim McShane wrote:
Hi Ned, Do Priuses have those .1 ohm thousand watt braking resistors hanging under them, too? ;-) Hee! I don't THINK so, but hey, they do have regenerative braking. Here's an idea...if they run the motor on high voltage AC, they could control the motor with gas tubes...it's been done (albeit not with terribly great success) with locomotives.. -- Ned Carlson Triode Electronics 5633 W Irving Park Rd Chicago, IL, 60634 USA http://www.triodeelectronics.com/ |
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Patrick wrote:
cattle lowing in the lane, -------------- Hi Patrick, just for trivial pursuit, Sarah is the lower voice, and Maybelle the higher. http://www.stevenmenke.com/Carter%20Family%20No2%20.htm I was trying to think of an Irish sounding American song, and Shenendoah fits the bill, as Irish Tenor material even. You'll remember it from the Jimmy Stewart movie. Curiously enough, Richard Thompson was on the radio a while back talking about that very song. He not only covered it, but dug out the history of it somewhere. It wasn't about the Shenendoah in Virginia, (as in the movie) but a river in Ohio he pronounced Shannandoh. Both likely named for the River Shannon of course. (I couldn't find any translation as anything other than, place name, river shannon) I think he said it *was* a Civil War song. |
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