[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Eeysore"

The sum total of ZERO. There is nothing whatever specific to valve
amplifiers. They have to obey just the same rules as everything else to
which 60065 applies.



** OK - how does the issue of exposing the valves on top of a chassis
rate ?

Lotsa hi-fi amp makes like to show the values off and have no mesh grille
over them for safety.

Two hazards:

1. Little fingers can get burned if they grab one.

2. A broken valve may expose the anode structure posing a serious shock
hazard - ie 300 to 700 volts DC.



No one I have asked previously has been able to quote
chapter and verse as Graham is now doing. This is very useful.

I have spoke about this safety aspect to many people, and have
a considerable amount of info, much of it as yet unverified.

It seems as though the issue of exposed valves is strictly
taboo. I was told by an amp builder that the amplifier "must
be supplied with a cage, cooling stack or other physical
protection" The owner takes the full responsibility for
remobving this. The cage must not be "press fit" but
require a tool for its removal.

In addition, even with a top cage, tubes with anode caps
may not be used unless the connector has an insulated
cover. This too is unverified, but seems tro make good sense.

Iain

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

CE in EU means RF emission controls, no?

** No.

It means compliance with all and any relevant EU standard that apply to the
product.

Includes all safety standards.

In Oz this is C-tick legislation.

** No.

C-tick is for "Electro- Magnetic Compatibility " only.

Australia WIMPED out of going the whole Monty on mandating safety regs -
at least for time being.

I believe this was because so many Aussie manufacturers and importers said
that full CE type compliance would cost them a packet or put them out of
business.

Safety is a completely separate issue to CE or C-tick.

** WRONG.

OK, point taken, and I'd forgotten what the euro CE meant.

But here in Oz, the C-tick legislation about the "Electro- Magnetic
Compatibility " you mentioned above,
and NOT about safety.

This compatability business means that depending on various classes of
equipments,
the gear cannot inject more than a specified amount of HF junk into
any of the 3 wires from a mains outlet, and may not be permitted to
radiate
more than a specified amount electro-magnetically; ie, act like an
unwanted transmitter of RF crap.

People like me making amps with "linear" supplies, ie, conventional
50Hz power trans with 100Hz based rectifiers have no trouble complying
with all the C-tick requirements.
I tested my amps and gave a full report to the ACA Dept here in the ACT.
They said I was over zealous. I wouldn'r be worried by them.

Their worry is about the flood of very noisy asian made TV sets and a
multitude of other asian crap
all cheap and nasty and noisy, as well as the few surviving Oz makers of
crap.

In a multi story block of apartments with hundreds of people living
vertically
related and all using goodness knows what. The earthing of gear isn't as
reliable
as when people live in single houses spread out and with more effective
earthing.
The C-tick legislation was an attempt to reduce the squabbles between
neighbours about
each other's interferences of the gear they have, by means of regulating
the quality of gear entering Oz.

There is plenty to laugh about when you see how well the ACA does not
police the laws.

I've never had to live in a flat in a hi-rise, but probably its hell.

Once upon a time the mains was a nice sine wave, and 240Vrms.

But now it measures 252Vrms most days, and has a trianguar wave with
flats
of 3.3mS for +/- crests.

In other words, 240Vrms of 50 Hz is in the waveform you pay for
but there is a lot of 3H, 5H, 7H and 9H.

A good PSU blocks all extra they send you, but the B+
is slightly different depending on the purity of the mains wave,
and so is the peak charging current wave forms for B+/B- supplies.

If everyone was FORCED to use choke input supplies, not so much
rectifier caused mains harmonics would be made.

Patrick Turner.





....... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

But the interference to my AM radio from all these fuctard devices such
as compact fluro lamps

** ********.

I have a number of CFLs running, with zero AM band interference.

"********" is a wonderful word to be sure now, ain't it?

But you don't yet know of my peronal experience right here with my
generic single story brick veneer house.

It has un-grounded Al foil sarking right under all the concrete tiles.

So I am living under a giant plate of a giant capacitor with no faradic
or direct connection to
earth.

Troubles began 12 years ago with a loud hum on AM radio after I bought a
fuctard designed
"Shimasu" phone answering machine with mini tape, and a small linear
PSU.

After identifying the source of that noise problem during a visit
by a coupla guys from the ACA with a spectral analyser after I'd
complained,
I tried all sorts of PS capacitor bypasses to the Shimasu, and it made
no difference,
so I chucked it out to the bin.

It should be have the brand name ""****asu"".

Hums came and went as years rolled by and probably from neighbours SMPS
as they "upgraded"
their gear but degraded my AM reception.

Last year a young bloke dropped into our street
GIVING AWAY COMPACT FLOURESCENT LIGHT BULBS FOR FREE.
He happily went around replacing about 10 incandescents,
and left me with a dozen other free replacements.
The CF lamp at my back door lasts about 6 mths left turned on,
as compared to the 25W IC lamp that'd only last a month.
probably its short life is caused by the high mains volts,
and Pd of the filament is excessive, as its probably designed for
Chinese 220V.

Anyway, after joining in with ppl to save electricity by use of CF,
I found the noise increase to be so bad that hum
much exceeded to the signal recieved on AM, not just a background
effect.
but if I turn some of the CF off, the noise goes right down to
background, just bloody anoying when music is played on ABC Radio
National which I like.

But despite what lights I may have turned on, or off, noise varies
anyway from tolerable during
ppl talking to bleedin awful, and then I use a second AM radio which has
less AF bandwidth and
a ferrite rod antenna, and despite the general poorer AF quality,
at least it isn't as noisy.
I put a separate earth from the power point behind the sets which made a
slight betterment.
I have yet to get around to building a metal case for the best set and
having an antenna wire slung from a distant tree with coax feed to get
away from the bleeding
awful noise near/under my roof.
My house companion's CF lamps cause problems to her gear and her TV set
and to my AM sets when they are all on.


It can't come too soon for my liking.

Your liking might be at odds with everyone else's.

** So this Turneroid ****tard is against basic electrical safety being law
??

What an ass.

Yet to be proven, no?



Exposed hot tubes in amplifiers are not any more hazardous than having
a
group of light bulbs exposed for folks to touch.

** That is a FALSE comparison and very serious ******** !!

Light bulbs are an entirely familiar and very minor hazard, plus the fact
they light up brightly (unlike valves ) warns one when they are hot.

Phil, its very unusual for any person, even a child to escape noticing
the heat in tubes when a hand is brought near them.

** This is all INSANE CRAP !!!!

Its fact, and ppl have reported to me that their children's inquisitve
nature about tube gear they had in the house did neither cause burns or
shocks.


So I will not repost one word of it.

There ARE safety Standards Codes in Oz which ppl are expected to comply
with.

** But not forced to.

That is the difference here.

So, many hazardous items ARE on sale in Aussie and there is nothing one
can do about it.

OK, and they ought to be better regulated.

Even if makers were forced to comply and get expensive NATA testing for
"unprescribed" gear, it does not reduce their exposure to being
successfully
sued if that gear causes injury/death etc.

If you could NOT be sued if you had complied officially, everyone would
comply.

But the most unpredictable **** happens.....

But the relevant issue is what we do ourselves during repairs and
productions of new gear
we leave in the hands of our customers.

I always fit 3 wire mains cables to old electric gear, radios, amps,
grams etc, and
fit a fuse, because rarely does an old radio ever have a mains fuse.

Patrick Turner.

....... Phil