[ST]

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,
ST

[[email protected]]

On Mar 12, 10:34*am, ST wrote:
Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,
ST

A lot more information is necessary.

a) Speaker type, make, model.
b) Room finishes, penetrations (doors/windows) with size and type, and
furnishings.
c) For those of us using the olde currency, your room is ~ 12 x 15.5 x
9.5, WLH. Are all the 'opposite' surfaces parallel? No bays, no
curves, no off-sets?

This is a fairly small room as these things go. And writing entirely
for myself based on 30 years fooling with this stuff, putting speakers
on the short wall of a smallish room has never been productive in my
experience - nor has an irrational attachment to symmetry as seems to
be the Cardas Way. Aside: It appears from Cardas that when one gets
past the smoke and away from the mirrors that he is attempting to
duplicate headphones in your listening room. Which makes no sense to
me at all.

Try this - and I will state in advance that this is a PURE S.W.A.G.,
but where I would start knowing no more than what you have told me. I
am assuming reasonably well-made, front-firing speakers with dome-type
mid/uppers and single or opposite/paired (relatively) large woofers

1. Determine the diameter of your largest driver - that will be your
multiplier for some of these dimensions.

2. On your longest, smoothest, least cluttered wall, find the 1/3
point and the 1/4 point from the opposite ends. Point A being 1/3 from
the LEFT as you face the wall, Point B being 1/4 from the RIGHT as you
face the wall. So, +/- 5 feet (154cm from the LEFT and +/-
3.85' (118cm) from the LEFT. IOW +/- 7 feet (213 cm apart). This comes
to (and winds up typically) somewhere between 6-9 woofer diameters
apart.

3. Your woofer voice coil (center) should be at least 1 diameter from
the wall and at least 2 diameters from the floor. Exceptions are
bookshelf-type speakers which may have their backs on the wall (with
some small separation 1 - 2 inches or 25 - 35cm OK) but must be above
the floor as noted.

Start there. Your soundstage will now be a half-elipse slightly off-
center to the room but centered between the speakers. You will
maximize the effects of the mid/upper ranges and minimize the effects
of the low end while maximizing the potential width of the soundstage.
Your "Sweet Spot" will no longer be a single point but a wide arc of
about 3/4 of that elipse centered at the midpoint between the speakers
their-distance-apart in front of them. Room interference is also
minimized (assuming no standing waves and normal furnishings, moderate
finishes (carpet, drywall, curtains). Hard finishes will require a bit
more attention as will flabby finishes.

Placing the speakers closer to the floor or wall increases the effect
of the low range. Bringing them closer together narrows the soundstage
and potentially-depending-on-source will muddy center-stage. Placing
them further apart (closer to the corners of the room) may wipe out
center-stage and start causing interference from the side walls. BUT _
LISTEN CAREFULLY_! They may be starting too far apart depending on
their design and you may need to carefully adjust them closer - but
retain an asymmetric placement on the long wall. You will know almost
immediately when they are the correct distance apart - and that may be
a matter of a very small distance, so take your time getting it right.
Using a source with an obvious and small but very definite soundstage
for this task is useful - a string quartet, or small folk group - but
NOT a solo instrument or voice.

Of course if you have tower speakers with multiple tiny woofers ignore
the raising-above-the-floor parts and concentrate on fore/aft
placement still using the 1/3-1/4 starting points. There is a long
calculation for this to get distance-apart points, but given the size
of your room there is not much opportunity for error here, just keep
in mind that they will likely want to be closer rather than further
apart.

Bose 901 speakers and similar cannot be placed properly in any
meaningful way - on the off-chance that this is your problem.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On 12 Mar 2009 14:34:39 GMT, ST
wrote:

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,

The mathematics are only a guide and do not take into
account room surfaces, construction and/or furniture. Trust
your ears.

Kal

[ST]

On Mar 13, 2:48*am, Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 12 Mar 2009 14:34:39 GMT, ST
wrote:

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,

The mathematics are only a guide and do not take into
account room surfaces, construction and/or furniture. *Trust
your ears.

Kal

Thanks Peter and Kal,

To Peter:-

1) Speaker type is 3-way reflex loaded, floorstanding.

2) Side firing 8" LF From floor about 8" to centre. I placed it to
face inwards.

3) Mid is approx 2.9' of 89cm


Room is double walled with all acoustic material placed inside the
wall with emphasis to treat first reflections, side, ceiling, front
and rear and floor. The problem is I am stuck with speaker arranged
towards the shorter wall due to inbuilt acoustic material. Room is
all flat surface no furniture except for a couch (a single sitter) and
a lean wooden table behind the couch. (1/2" thickness 2 x 4).

I thought of getting everything correct but now finding the sweet spot
is becoming so illusive or it is more less everywhere sounds the same
except for the low bass. When I try listening to individual vocal or
instrument it sounds realistic. But when listening to full music it
sounds so different then before. The vocal is no longer prominent but
evenly spread. The room frequencies measurements is almost flat. But
the system sounds different when playing full music. It is enjoyable
but being different from what I used to hear all this while make it
more like it is going to be a case of acquired taste.

That's why I am wondering if my speakers placed correctly. I guess
there is no easy way other than adjusting by hearing to suit my liking
As Kal said. Now that bring us back to what is the correct parameter
should be for ideal music playback? Or is music recorded to meet
standard home, club and etc so that i t sounds they way they do in
most places? And loudspeakers designed to give extra boast in bass
which never was in the recording?

Cheers
ST

[Rockinghorse Winner[_3_]]

Following a large swig of Johnny Walker Red, Kalman Rubinson pounded
out this gem...
On 12 Mar 2009 14:34:39 GMT, ST
wrote:

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,

The mathematics are only a guide and do not take into
account room surfaces, construction and/or furniture. Trust
your ears.

Kal

IMO, expensive speakers that don't sound very good in a variety of positions, even
compromised positions, are not worth the high price.

*R* *H*

--
The 19th-century clown Joseph Grimaldi, when old and
incurably depressed, visited a doctor. The physician advised him
to cheer himself up by seeing the great comedian Grimaldi.
Whereupon his patient told him: Doctor, I am Grimaldi.

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On 13 Mar 2009 14:22:17 GMT, Rockinghorse Winner
wrote:

Following a large swig of Johnny Walker Red, Kalman Rubinson pounded
out this gem...
On 12 Mar 2009 14:34:39 GMT, ST
wrote:

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,

The mathematics are only a guide and do not take into
account room surfaces, construction and/or furniture. Trust
your ears.

Kal

IMO, expensive speakers that don't sound very good in a variety of positions, even
compromised positions, are not worth the high price.

I do not see this snide point as relevant. All speakers are greatly
affected by room acoustics and, consequently, their positioning with
regard to the room and the listener. Any two speakers, regardless of
price or quality, will be similarly affected when placed in the same
position. OTOH, those who spend more (money and/or effort) are likely
to be more demanding of the results and, therefore, more critical of
less than optimal results.

In other words, the procedures for setup are the same but some are
content to compromise more than others.

Kal

[Rockinghorse Winner[_3_]]

Following a large swig of Johnny Walker Red, Kalman Rubinson pounded
out this gem...
On 13 Mar 2009 14:22:17 GMT, Rockinghorse Winner
wrote:

Following a large swig of Johnny Walker Red, Kalman Rubinson pounded
out this gem...
On 12 Mar 2009 14:34:39 GMT, ST
wrote:

Hi to all,

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite following
everything according to the recommended setup my speaker position
defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp and others.
Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to the size. The
other position either produces too low bass or thin voice or bright.
The only position that I find musically correct is speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? or am I getting it wrong?

Thanks and kind regards,

The mathematics are only a guide and do not take into
account room surfaces, construction and/or furniture. Trust
your ears.

Kal

IMO, expensive speakers that don't sound very good in a variety of positions, even
compromised positions, are not worth the high price.

I do not see this snide point as relevant. All speakers are greatly
affected by room acoustics and, consequently, their positioning with
regard to the room and the listener. Any two speakers, regardless of
price or quality, will be similarly affected when placed in the same
position. OTOH, those who spend more (money and/or effort) are likely
to be more demanding of the results and, therefore, more critical of
less than optimal results.

In other words, the procedures for setup are the same but some are
content to compromise more than others.


I didn't mean it as snide. All placement is a compromise between sound and
room design. Frankly I find the obsession with dollar value of components
and the endless tweaking to obtain miniscule, probably imaginary, changes in
the sound, to be vain. What is the point of filtering your AC when you are
surrounded by radio waves that constantly bombard your components, inducing
tiny eddy currents in the wires? Or changing the copper content of your
speaker wire, or putting little metal spikes under your cd player when just
moving your head a little to the right changes the balance and frequency
response? It's a futile exercise whose only purpose it seems is to siphon
off the excess cash from bulging IRAs and 401Ks.

*R* *H*
--
The 19th-century clown Joseph Grimaldi, when old and
incurably depressed, visited a doctor. The physician advised him
to cheer himself up by seeing the great comedian Grimaldi.
Whereupon his patient told him: Doctor, I am Grimaldi.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Mar 13, 2:09*pm, Kalman Rubinson wrote:

I do not see this snide point as relevant. *All speakers are greatly
affected by room acoustics and, consequently, their positioning with
regard to the room and the listener. *Any two speakers, regardless of
price or quality, will be similarly affected when placed in the same
position. *

In other words, the procedures for setup are the same but some are
content to compromise more than others.


The procedures for the setup of say a planar dipole radiator is not
likely to be the same as for any type of box speaker, nor will they be
affected by room acoustics and boundaries in the same way.

Norman

[[email protected]]

Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 13, 6:59*am, ST wrote:

1) Speaker type is 3-way reflex loaded, floorstanding.

OK. So you are only concerned with fore/aft placement now. This helps.
So would a brand and model number.

2) Side firing 8" LF From floor about 8" to centre. I placed it to
face inwards.

An 8" woofer will very most likely range quite a bit above the 'magic'
500hz - so put them facing outwards for the next series of tests.

3) Mid is approx 2.9' of *89cm

Dome, cone or horn? Makes a BIG difference. I am assuming for this
that they are domes.

Room is double walled with all acoustic material placed inside the
wall with emphasis to treat first reflections, *side, ceiling, front
and rear and floor. The problem is I am stuck with speaker arranged
towards the shorter wall due to inbuilt acoustic material. *Room is
all flat surface no furniture except for a couch (a single sitter) and

Sorry to shatter your illusions here, but what goes on *inside* the
walls has only to do with the next room and nothing at all to do with
what goes on inside your listening room. That is affected by only the
*first* acoustically opaque surface. So, for all practical purposes
you may pick any wall you wish going forward. There is a great deal
written on acoustical treatments as it has to do with STC (sound
transmission class) ratings and I spent nearly 10 years of my life
specifiying around such things for everything from lecture halls and
theatres to medical applications. So all your acoustical materials
*inside* the walls, again, affects a potential STC rating but not what
is going on inside your listening area. A piece of kraft-covered Luan
plywood would show the same as a piece of GWB assuming proper
installation to prevent drum-head effect. And if you think on it a bit
- that is exactly true of a filled wall as well.

I thought of getting everything correct but now finding the sweet spot
is becoming so illusive or it is more less everywhere sounds the same
except for the low bass. *When I try listening to individual vocal or
instrument it sounds realistic. But when listening to full music it
sounds so different then before. The vocal is no longer prominent but
evenly spread. *The room frequencies measurements is almost flat. But
the system sounds different when playing full music. It is enjoyable
but being different from what I used to hear all this while make it
more like it is going to be a case of acquired taste.

From the description you are giving it is my considered opinion that
the speakers are *WAY* too close together. Don't get caught in the
Cardas-Mimicry trap by attempting to duplicate headphones in your
listening room or shooting for a unique sweet-spot. That ain't nohow
how you listen to music in the real world, nor should it be how you
build your illusion in your listening area.

That's why I am wondering if my speakers placed correctly.'
'
They are not.You are quite correct to wonder.
I guess
there is no easy way other than adjusting by hearing to suit my liking
As Kal said.

That is excellent advice. But START with placing them as I have
suggested on the long wall. *ALL* that exists as far as your speakers
are concerned are the surfaces, layout and contents of your room.
NOTHING else is relevant to this experiment. Don't limit your options
before you have even started the process - that way lies madness.

Now that bring us back to what is the correct parameter
should be for ideal music playback? Or is music recorded to meet
standard home, club and etc so that i t sounds they way they do in
most places? And loudspeakers designed to give extra boast in bass
which never *was in the recording?

Speakers should be designed to repeat what is fed into them. Adding no
artifacts of their own, removing none either. Ideal speakers are dead-
flat on their response curve with neat right angles above and below
the limits of human hearing. NO such ideal speakers exist, of course,
but you get the picture. But extra boost in bass - no.

The 'correct' parameter is what makes you happy and wanting to listen.
If your system makes you tired, restless, unhappy, just by listening
to it (AKA "listener fatigue") something isn't right. RH is not so far
off when he suggests that very good speakers will tolerate
considerably poor environments better than less good speakers - though
none are immune to their environments - and speaker quality and design
fitness has only peripherally to do with their cost after certain very
basic parameters are met. Keeping in mind that the point of
diminishing returns with speakers is much, much further out than it is
with _anything_ else and explains why most everyone will advise that
the choice of speakers is the single most significant item when
building a system. Put another way, one may pay obscene amounts of
money for very, very bad speakers. And very, very good speakers will
be costly. But only an obscenity if there are better available for the
same or less.

And why I very much prefer purchasing used and vintage equipment. For
the most part, I have the skills and tools to work on it, and I can
focus on those things that have stood the test of time and remain
sought-after and appreciated - or what has evolved from those things
using better materials and processes.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 13 Mar 2009 21:19:05 GMT, "
wrote:

On Mar 13, 2:09*pm, Kalman Rubinson wrote:

I do not see this snide point as relevant. *All speakers are greatly
affected by room acoustics and, consequently, their positioning with
regard to the room and the listener. *Any two speakers, regardless of
price or quality, will be similarly affected when placed in the same
position. *

In other words, the procedures for setup are the same but some are
content to compromise more than others.


The procedures for the setup of say a planar dipole radiator is not
likely to be the same as for any type of box speaker, nor will they be
affected by room acoustics and boundaries in the same way.

Agreed. I was generalizing with respect to cost but not technology.

Kal

[ST]

On Mar 14, 7:50*am, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting.


Some snipped for brevity


An 8" woofer will very most likely range quite a bit above the 'magic'
500hz - so put them facing outwards for the next series of tests.

3) Mid is approx 2.9' of *89cm

What I meant to say was " Mid is 6.5 inch diameter. Around 89 cm from
the floor.

Dome, cone or horn? Makes a BIG difference. I am assuming for this
that they are domes.

Dome.


Sorry to shatter your illusions here, but what goes on *inside* the
walls has only to do with the next room and nothing at all to do with
what goes on inside your listening room. That is affected by only the
*first* acoustically opaque surface. ........

I did not express myself correctly. They are double 5 inch brick wall
with a gap of 3" between two walls. So total thickness is about
13inch . No whatsoever materials in between the two walls. In the
inner wall there were several cavity to the exact size of acoustic
material so that the inner wall is all flat without any protruding
acoustic panel.


From the description you are giving it is my considered opinion that

the speakers are *WAY* too close together. Don't get caught in the
Cardas-Mimicry trap by attempting to duplicate headphones in your
listening room or shooting for a unique sweet-spot. That ain't nohow
how you listen to music in the real world, nor should it be how you
build your illusion in your listening area.

The speakers are 7' 4" apart. Is that too close?

Anyway, back to the original question, that was "The only position
that I find musically correct is when the speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? " . I would like share what I found out
today from another manufacturer guide. It is mathematically correct
to place the speakers as such. Though I am settled at 73cm from SW and
76cm from RW. Please read here for more details.
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/resource...udspeakers.pdf

Cheers,
ST

[[email protected]]

On Mar 14, 1:22*pm, ST wrote:

Please note the interpolations.

What I meant to say was " Mid is 6.5 inch diameter. Around 89 cm from
the floor.

Good. Mids are less prone to exaggeration/diminuation by proximity to
surfaces than woofs, but good.


I did not express myself correctly. They are double 5 inch brick wall
with a gap of *3" between two walls. So total thickness is about
13inch . No whatsoever materials in between the two walls. In the
inner wall there were several cavity to the exact size of acoustic
material so that the inner wall is all flat without any protruding
acoustic panel.

I am still not sure what you mean - do you mean that you have filled
gaps in the wall such that it is now flat, but that the wall is
somehow paneled (covered) with acoustical material? Or something else?

The speakers are 7' 4" apart. Is that too close?

If they are on the short wall, and place symmetrically, this may be
too far. Also knowing that the woofers are 8", that *allows* them to
get closer than what you have, but it is not necessary.

Anyway, back to the original question, that was "The only position
that I find musically correct is when the speakers placed
approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the side. Sitting position
is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically possible to calculate why
this position seems right? " . I would like share what I found out
today from another manufacturer guide. It is *mathematically correct
to place the speakers as such. Though I am settled at 73cm from SW and
76cm from RW. Please read here for more details.http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/resource...udspeakers.pdf

Read through the literature - and it suggests that 'perfect triangle'
isn't the way to go if I am reading correctly.

Try working off the long wall, once. See how it goes.

Good luck.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Andrew Haley]

ST writes:

My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite
following everything according to the recommended setup my speaker
position defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp
and others. Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to
the size. The other position either produces too low bass or thin
voice or bright. The only position that I find musically correct
is speakers placed approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the
side. Sitting position is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically
possible to calculate why this position seems right?

Yes, it is, but it's complicated. Beware of any simple formulas.

CARA is probably what you want. See

http://www.cara.de/
http://www.stereophile.com/miscellaneous/438/

I am at risk of recommending this software so often that the
moderators think I'm shilling for the company, but I'm just a
customer.

Andrew.

[ST]

On Mar 15, 10:26*pm, Andrew Haley wrote:
ST writes:

* My room size is H287.5 W368 L442.75cm exact( Golden ratio of
* 1:1.28:1.54). Reverberation time is around 0.33ms. Despite
* following everything according to the recommended setup my speaker
* position defies accepted loudspeaker guide such as Cardas and Wasp
* and others. *Cardas setup is simply not possible in my room due to
* the size. The other position either produces too low bass or thin
* voice or bright. *The only position that I find musically correct
* is speakers placed approximately 88cm from rear and 72cm from the
* side. Sitting position is in perfect triangle. Is it mathematically
* possible to calculate why this position seems right?

Yes, it is, but it's complicated. *Beware of any simple formulas.

CARA is probably what you want. *See

http://www.cara.de/http://www.stereo...ellaneous/438/

I am at risk of recommending this software so often that the
moderators ***** I'm shilling for the company, but I'm just a
customer.

Andrew.

Hi, thanks for the idea I am working with another software with my
friend. And to Peter, you are absolutely correct to say the speakers
were placed too far a part. I have reduced to 6'5" . I ***** it is
going to take another two weeks to hit the right spot. Wonder how
those guys with over 100 pound loudspeakers find their sweet spot.

Regards,
ST