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#1
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Solo Guitar
Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not
live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. -- Gary Eickmeier |
#2
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Solo Guitar
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:16:56 -0400, "Gary Eickmeier"
wrote: Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. What makes you think it was not live? And clearly the sound the player wanted the audience to hear was the sound from the speakers, not the direct sound from the guitar. If you want a full stereo recording, you mike it as a stereo pair (of some kind) at a reasonable distance from the stage. To do that it helps to know the venue, so you can balance image, reverb, audience all against the critical distance of the room. d |
#3
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Solo Guitar
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. I have no idea what you mean by the event not being "live", since there will be a live performer in a room full of people. An electric guitar and amp combination is a musical instrument. There may be no reason to use a more elaborate mic arrangement than for an acoustic event, unless part of the presentation includes some kind of surround experience with multiple speakers placed around the room. -- best regards, Neil |
#4
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Solo Guitar
"Neil Gould" wrote in message ... Gary Eickmeier wrote: Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. I have no idea what you mean by the event not being "live", since there will be a live performer in a room full of people. An electric guitar and amp combination is a musical instrument. There may be no reason to use a more elaborate mic arrangement than for an acoustic event, unless part of the presentation includes some kind of surround experience with multiple speakers placed around the room. -- best regards, Neil Good comments. All I meant was that whenever an event is amplified it is always done in monophonic feeds, no matter where the house speakers are placed. That plus some are not acoustic, natural instruments. This performer was using an electronic box that could do looping and effects such as the perception of bowing his strings which was quite magical but I can imagine these effects being put out directionally to make it more interesting. Just a thought. Why do we enjoy the "stereo-ness" of music? Bands arrange themselves in stereo (directional groupings) because it is another dimension to the experience - having the horns and reeds sing out in response to each other. Pipe and electric organs are arranged in directional groups. Choruses are arranged in groupings of voices. And of course we all know the standard symphonic arrangement. Why sound reinforcement of multiple instrument groups is never in stereo is probably because it would be more work and more difficult to set up. Large ampitheater settings can't do it because of their size, which makes no stereo sense. Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? But all that I meant was that I hate it when I go to a live concert (esp jazz) and everything is amplified unnecessarily to the point that I would hear the same sound in a recording off their console feed on PA speakers. I thought the majority here would agree with that. Gary |
#5
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Solo Guitar
Neil Gould wrote:
Gary Eickmeier wrote: Good comments. All I meant was that whenever an event is amplified it is always done in monophonic feeds, no matter where the house speakers are placed. Although this is often true, it is not always true, especially of electronic music events. Stereo is quite common, and surround is also used in many venues. In very large venues, sound reinforcement is even more complex. I believe that recording these events has to begin with the intention of the performer(s). In a small club, the vast majority of the actual sound is coming live off the backline and the actual instruments, with the PA only filling in. So the fact that the PA is run mono does little to change the sense of space other in that it pulls the vocals all to the center of the stereo image (unless you're sitting way off to the side where it may pull them to the side). In a stadium situation with a rock band, you can wind up in a situation where the audience is hearing almost entirely reinforced sound. In these cases it can be very difficult to get good stereo imaging except in a small center area of the hall; even with an LCR arrangement often the audience members are not evenly covered by both speakers. So in this situation it is common to hear the room effects in stereo and still get a sense of the hall while all the actual direct sound is coming only from one place. (Unfortunately these are usually the halls where you would be better off not getting a good sense of the hall, but those are the breaks). That plus some are not acoustic, natural instruments. Whatever *that* means. Very few instruments of any kind are "natural", e.g. they occur in nature. This is the point.... all instruments that directly make a sound are in the same category whether they are electric or entirely mechanical, because in all cases the sound in the air is produced by the instrument. And yes, with an electric guitar the pickups and the guitar cabinet are part of the instrument and part of the sound and the radiation pattern of the cabinet is as important to the sound as the radiation pattern of a violin. Now, where it gets different is with electric instruments that are played entirely through the PA and which produce no actual sound themselves, but that is a different thing altogether. This performer was using an electronic box that could do looping and effects such as the perception of bowing his strings which was quite magical but I can imagine these effects being put out directionally to make it more interesting. Just a thought. It would not be at all unusual for those effects to be presented multi-dimensionally. I recall a Pink Floyd concert in the mid-late '60s that used a quadraphonic PA system. Since that time, many electronic music events have used complex presentation systems such as those that are common in theaters. Sure, but this is no different than miking all the drums individually and panning them to different corners of the room. My tendency is to put this in the category of "silly tricks" but if it makes money that's fine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#6
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Solo Guitar
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote in message ... Gary Eickmeier wrote: Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. I have no idea what you mean by the event not being "live", since there will be a live performer in a room full of people. An electric guitar and amp combination is a musical instrument. There may be no reason to use a more elaborate mic arrangement than for an acoustic event, unless part of the presentation includes some kind of surround experience with multiple speakers placed around the room. -- best regards, Neil Good comments. All I meant was that whenever an event is amplified it is always done in monophonic feeds, no matter where the house speakers are placed. Although this is often true, it is not always true, especially of electronic music events. Stereo is quite common, and surround is also used in many venues. In very large venues, sound reinforcement is even more complex. I believe that recording these events has to begin with the intention of the performer(s). That plus some are not acoustic, natural instruments. Whatever *that* means. Very few instruments of any kind are "natural", e.g. they occur in nature. This performer was using an electronic box that could do looping and effects such as the perception of bowing his strings which was quite magical but I can imagine these effects being put out directionally to make it more interesting. Just a thought. It would not be at all unusual for those effects to be presented multi-dimensionally. I recall a Pink Floyd concert in the mid-late '60s that used a quadraphonic PA system. Since that time, many electronic music events have used complex presentation systems such as those that are common in theaters. [...] Why sound reinforcement of multiple instrument groups is never in stereo is probably because it would be more work and more difficult to set up. Large ampitheater settings can't do it because of their size, which makes no stereo sense. Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? Most of them are at least capable of stereo. Whether or not they're used that way depends on the music being presented. The bottom line, again, is the intent of the performer(s). If you wish to document their event, you need to know what they're trying to achieve or you'll only be creating some other representation of their work. -- best regards, Neil |
#7
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Solo Guitar
On 6/22/2014 1:43 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: Gary Eickmeier wrote: Good comments. All I meant was that whenever an event is amplified it is always done in monophonic feeds, no matter where the house speakers are placed. Although this is often true, it is not always true, especially of electronic music events. Stereo is quite common, and surround is also used in many venues. In very large venues, sound reinforcement is even more complex. I believe that recording these events has to begin with the intention of the performer(s). In a small club, the vast majority of the actual sound is coming live off the backline and the actual instruments, with the PA only filling in. So the fact that the PA is run mono does little to change the sense of space other in that it pulls the vocals all to the center of the stereo image (unless you're sitting way off to the side where it may pull them to the side). In a stadium situation with a rock band, you can wind up in a situation where the audience is hearing almost entirely reinforced sound. In these cases it can be very difficult to get good stereo imaging except in a small center area of the hall; even with an LCR arrangement often the audience members are not evenly covered by both speakers. So in this situation it is common to hear the room effects in stereo and still get a sense of the hall while all the actual direct sound is coming only from one place. (Unfortunately these are usually the halls where you would be better off not getting a good sense of the hall, but those are the breaks). That plus some are not acoustic, natural instruments. Whatever *that* means. Very few instruments of any kind are "natural", e.g. they occur in nature. This is the point.... all instruments that directly make a sound are in the same category whether they are electric or entirely mechanical, because in all cases the sound in the air is produced by the instrument. And yes, with an electric guitar the pickups and the guitar cabinet are part of the instrument and part of the sound and the radiation pattern of the cabinet is as important to the sound as the radiation pattern of a violin. Now, where it gets different is with electric instruments that are played entirely through the PA and which produce no actual sound themselves, but that is a different thing altogether. Perhaps not so different, if the sound that is achieved is what the player wanted. Today, very few electric musicians feel the need to have large stacks of amplifiers just to get "that sound", and in many cases the amps have a direct feed to the PA, so they serve as little more than personal instrument monitors anyway. This performer was using an electronic box that could do looping and effects such as the perception of bowing his strings which was quite magical but I can imagine these effects being put out directionally to make it more interesting. Just a thought. It would not be at all unusual for those effects to be presented multi-dimensionally. I recall a Pink Floyd concert in the mid-late '60s that used a quadraphonic PA system. Since that time, many electronic music events have used complex presentation systems such as those that are common in theaters. Sure, but this is no different than miking all the drums individually and panning them to different corners of the room. My tendency is to put this in the category of "silly tricks" but if it makes money that's fine. I'd say that whether it's art or a silly trick depends on the intention of the performer. Some do not just create a louder version of what is happening on stage, and if their vision communicates a purpose that enhances the performance, I'd say it's probably art. Although artists are a relatively small percentage of performers, it's hard to tell ahead of time if one doesn't ask about their intent. -- best regards, Neil |
#8
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Solo Guitar
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Neil Gould wrote: Gary Eickmeier wrote: Good comments. All I meant was that whenever an event is amplified it is always done in monophonic feeds, no matter where the house speakers are placed. Although this is often true, it is not always true, especially of electronic music events. Stereo is quite common, and surround is also used in many venues. In very large venues, sound reinforcement is even more complex. I believe that recording these events has to begin with the intention of the performer(s). In a small club, the vast majority of the actual sound is coming live off the backline and the actual instruments, with the PA only filling in. So the fact that the PA is run mono does little to change the sense of space other in that it pulls the vocals all to the center of the stereo image (unless you're sitting way off to the side where it may pull them to the side). In a stadium situation with a rock band, you can wind up in a situation where the audience is hearing almost entirely reinforced sound. In these cases it can be very difficult to get good stereo imaging except in a small center area of the hall; even with an LCR arrangement often the audience members are not evenly covered by both speakers. So in this situation it is common to hear the room effects in stereo and still get a sense of the hall while all the actual direct sound is coming only from one place. (Unfortunately these are usually the halls where you would be better off not getting a good sense of the hall, but those are the breaks). That plus some are not acoustic, natural instruments. Whatever *that* means. Very few instruments of any kind are "natural", e.g. they occur in nature. This is the point.... all instruments that directly make a sound are in the same category whether they are electric or entirely mechanical, because in all cases the sound in the air is produced by the instrument. And yes, with an electric guitar the pickups and the guitar cabinet are part of the instrument and part of the sound and the radiation pattern of the cabinet is as important to the sound as the radiation pattern of a violin. Now, where it gets different is with electric instruments that are played entirely through the PA and which produce no actual sound themselves, but that is a different thing altogether. This performer was using an electronic box that could do looping and effects such as the perception of bowing his strings which was quite magical but I can imagine these effects being put out directionally to make it more interesting. Just a thought. It would not be at all unusual for those effects to be presented multi-dimensionally. I recall a Pink Floyd concert in the mid-late '60s that used a quadraphonic PA system. Since that time, many electronic music events have used complex presentation systems such as those that are common in theaters. Sure, but this is no different than miking all the drums individually and panning them to different corners of the room. My tendency is to put this in the category of "silly tricks" but if it makes money that's fine. However, a B3 going through a couple of Leslies in a small club has a real 3D feel to it - silly trick or not :-) Sean |
#9
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Solo Guitar
On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote:
s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) geoff |
#10
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Solo Guitar
недеља, 22. јун 2014. 09.16.56 UTC+2, Gary Eickmeier је напиÑао/ла:
Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. -- Gary Eickmeier I think that is a good plan to have as many different "versions" on multitrack, to chose from and mix. In the end you don't have to use them all. One may be just enough. Take care about delays and phase so not to end with guitar of 20 meters wide body. Unfortunately, judged by all previous gibberish about speakers, acoustics and stereo it seams you actually like that garbage kind of sound. Is it acoustic guitar, with some kind of pick up, electric,...? Why would you record the audience from the stage perspective? If it is solo guitar, the all and the only stereo is in reverb/ reflections.. You should record that, there where it is good. |
#11
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Solo Guitar
Sean Conolly wrote:
However, a B3 going through a couple of Leslies in a small club has a real 3D feel to it - silly trick or not :-) That's a silly _instrument_ trick, though, not a silly PA trick. It's in the same category as stereo guitar amps, antiphonal organs, and those Mozart pieces with the two counterpoint parts performed by fiddles on either side of the orchestra. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
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Solo Guitar
On 22/06/2014 22:20, geoff wrote:
On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote: s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) I also play about with the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone, as the results vary between edge and centre. Sometimes, I get the best results by pointing the mic at the back of the speaker, if the cabinet has an open back. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#13
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Solo Guitar
On 23/06/2014 4:04 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 22/06/2014 22:20, geoff wrote: On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote: s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) I also play about with the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone, as the results vary between edge and centre. Sometimes, I get the best results by pointing the mic at the back of the speaker, if the cabinet has an open back. Depending on teh performer it may be better from the back on an enclosed speaker ! geoff |
#14
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Solo Guitar
On 23/06/2014 10:37, geoff wrote:
On 23/06/2014 4:04 p.m., John Williamson wrote: On 22/06/2014 22:20, geoff wrote: On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote: s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) I also play about with the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone, as the results vary between edge and centre. Sometimes, I get the best results by pointing the mic at the back of the speaker, if the cabinet has an open back. Depending on teh performer it may be better from the back on an enclosed speaker ! Grin -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#15
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Solo Guitar
On 6/22/2014 11:14 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Why sound reinforcement of multiple instrument groups is never in stereo is probably because it would be more work and more difficult to set up. Large ampitheater settings can't do it because of their size, which makes no stereo sense. Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? Stereo live sound reinforcement is often used for effects, but not for the main elements of the sound. You might get stereo reverb or a tom roll panned across the stage, but singers and instruments are always panned to the center. You'll sometimes find stereo panning in a small venue, but that's largely because the operator doesn't really understand what he or she is doing, and most mixers used for live sound, even smaller systems, do offer panning between two channels. The guitar player is standing on the left, so they pan it to the left. Hopefully the room is small enough so that people sitting on the right sound can still hear the guitar. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#16
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Solo Guitar
John Williamson wrote:
On 22/06/2014 22:20, geoff wrote: On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote: s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) I also play about with the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone, as the results vary between edge and centre. Sometimes, I get the best results by pointing the mic at the back of the speaker, if the cabinet has an open back. It can be very interesting to put an electric guitar into a good room and then mike the room instead of the cabinet. People don't do that today and it can result in a more distant sound than people are used to, but it can be a very realistic and exciting sound. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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Solo Guitar
On 6/23/2014 9:14 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/22/2014 11:14 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote: Why sound reinforcement of multiple instrument groups is never in stereo is probably because it would be more work and more difficult to set up. Large ampitheater settings can't do it because of their size, which makes no stereo sense. Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? Stereo live sound reinforcement is often used for effects, but not for the main elements of the sound. Gary's situation is a solo guitar performer using multiple effects. I'd think that sound reinforcement is key, if not the main element of the performance in this case. A musical concert is a collaboration between the performer(s) and the sound crew, and as in any other professional collaboration, communicating about the intentions, possible issues and limitations of the event is a good thing. -- best regards, Neil |
#18
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Solo Guitar
"John Williamson" wrote in message ... On 23/06/2014 10:37, geoff wrote: On 23/06/2014 4:04 p.m., John Williamson wrote: On 22/06/2014 22:20, geoff wrote: On 22/06/2014 7:16 p.m., Gary Eickmeier wrote: s to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audienc I'd put the guitar mic near the amp (well, speaker actually) .... ;-) I also play about with the position of the mic relative to the speaker cone, as the results vary between edge and centre. Sometimes, I get the best results by pointing the mic at the back of the speaker, if the cabinet has an open back. Depending on teh performer it may be better from the back on an enclosed speaker ! Grin Sound went into the church system, playing over speakers that are way high up on the front wall and hung from the ceiling. The sound desk had L and R in and out, but I have no idea whether amps and speakers were arranged for stereo. No need for it in a church environment. Gary |
#19
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Solo Guitar
Luxey wrote:
??????, 22. ??? 2014. 09.16.56 UTC+2, Gary Eickmeier ?? ???????/??: Just recorded a guitar solo concert. But like many live concerts it was not live. It was an electric guitar, so we listened to it on speakers. My approach was to put a single mike near the guitar, then a stereo pair facing the audience, then capture the house sound off the board to get the really close-up pick sound. Mix it all together and you have a new audio event - very similar to the live event, but more in stereo because I will image the guitar in center and have stereo audience ambience. That's the plan anyway. -- Gary Eickmeier I think that is a good plan to have as many different "versions" on multitrack, to chose from and mix. In the end you don't have to use them all. One may be just enough. Take care about delays and phase so not to end with guitar of 20 meters wide body. Unfortunately, judged by all previous gibberish about speakers, acoustics and stereo it seams you actually like that garbage kind of sound. Is it acoustic guitar, with some kind of pick up, electric,...? Why would you record the audience from the stage perspective? If it is solo guitar, the all and the only stereo is in reverb/ reflections. You should record that, there where it is good. Sometimes you don't have many options, and/or don't know the venue or have enough time to analyze the whole situation. Hence, my taking as many tracks as I had equipment for and fixing it in the mix. My main thought on pointing the stereo mike at the audience was to be sure that the single guitar mike took precedence and to get some clean audience applause and reaction. The sound board take-off was for the cleanest guitar and effects sound and for his voice. Final factor is that this is not a recording session, it is a live concert and I am just recording it for my own practice and for him, to give him a CD of it. I had to stay unobtrusive and keep the equipment invisible and unobjectionable. So, a single mike on a small stand and the little Zoom H6 recorder with MS capsule on another similar stand, connected by a single XLR cable. Gary |
#20
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Solo Guitar
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 09:30:10 -0400, Neil wrote:
A musical concert is a collaboration between the performer(s) and the sound crew, and as in any other professional collaboration, communicating about the intentions, possible issues and limitations of the event is a good thing. I would add to that, not going into the situation with preconceived notions about what is or isn't "correct" or "natural" sounding (let alone "live") for the instrument(s) involved. Just do your best to capture the best possible representation of the performance. That usually gets easier with repeated attempts with the same performer(s). -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sylvain Robitaille Systems analyst / AITS Concordia University Faculty of Engineering and Computer Science Montreal, Quebec, Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#21
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Solo Guitar
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? Nearly all of the known good systems are capable of that. Sometimes stereo is desirable, and sometimes not. As Jim Finney says, "In concert lots of people listen with their eyes". -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#22
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Solo Guitar
Sean Conolly wrote:
However, a B3 going through a couple of Leslies in a small club has a real 3D feel to it - silly trick or not :-) Lovely trick! -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#23
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Solo Guitar
hank alrich wrote:
Gary Eickmeier wrote: Does anyone know of a stereo sound reinforcement system for live sound? Nearly all of the known good systems are capable of that. Sometimes stereo is desirable, and sometimes not. And let me add to what Hank said that just about every commercial PA rig is capable of splitting sounds between two or more channels... but the majority of large halls are not capable of reproducing that sound consistently to all seats. That is, the problem is not with the electronics but the architecture. As Jim Finney says, "In concert lots of people listen with their eyes". And as a result exaggerated stereo effects or just plain wrong effects (like all the sound coming from the listener's right) became severe problems because what the eye sees and what the ear hears are in conflict. The sound might be fine by itself, but it doesn't mesh with the visuals. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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