"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:06:17 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:



dave weil said:

Time for Scott to break out another Pabst's to go with his Rotel.

I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on
them.

Does it smell like Velveeta?

As George says... you guys have a need for posturing in these groups.

But do you really think imitating the evil bitch clique in a teen movie is
effective posturing? I'm almost embarrassed at how lame your insults
are.

ScottW

Yapper has a confession to make.


I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on them.

Does it smell like Velveeta?

As George[sic] says... you guys have a need for posturing in these groups.

Only one other RAOer is so feeble-minded that he can't tell who's talking
down to him.

I'm almost embarrassed at how lame your insults are.

Translation: Velveeta's out in Scottieland. The new cuisine for him
features Cheez Whiz.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Yapper has a confession to make.


I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie
on them.

Does it smell like Velveeta?

As George[sic] says... you guys have a need for posturing in these
groups.

Only one other RAOer is so feeble-minded that he can't tell who's talking
down to him.

It's the feeble minded who do the talking down.


I'm almost embarrassed at how lame your insults are.

Translation: Velveeta's out in Scottieland. The new cuisine for him
features Cheez Whiz.

Can you get that in a feta flavor?

ScottW

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:05:54 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

I'm almost embarrassed

Actually, you should be COMPLETELY embarassed.

Your moral compass is waaaay off BTW. Maybe you need a Shakti Stone.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:41:51 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:



Yapper has a confession to make.


I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on them.

Does it smell like Velveeta?

As George[sic] says... you guys have a need for posturing in these groups.

Only one other RAOer is so feeble-minded that he can't tell who's talking
down to him.

I'm almost embarrassed at how lame your insults are.

Translation: Velveeta's out in Scottieland. The new cuisine for him
features Cheez Whiz.

And he's been spending most of his free time trying to cram Rotel down
the spray spout.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]

ididots like Middius and you
are the people who understand that measurements have actual meanbing and
that when two devices meansure similarly enough, they sound the same.

Mikey, if you ever find an "ididot" with "meanbing" and similar
"meansure",
let me know.

You realize, don't you, that your inferior mind is the cause of these
mistakes?


I realize that my typing skills and my forgetting to use the spell check
feature allow such mistakes to get through. I also realize that you claim
to believe that makes me somehow your inferior. The problem of course, is
how little you seem to understand about your own failings and what a putz
you appear to be when you dwell on my problems while turning a blind eye to
so many more important problems.

Do continue though, it can only weaken your standing (assuming that's still
possible) to constantly reveal how petty you are.

wrote in message
oups.com...


You ask Mr. Morein :" You have a DBT that shows otherwise?"
Just to remind you that so far no one, and you least of all, referenced
a DBT that shows anything other thasn "It all sounds the same".
Whatever in audio is being compared.
Timje to reach for an argument from another barrel. Any in
sight?
Ludovic Mirabel


You are a liar, and the fact that you yourself referenced a DBT where a
difference was recorded just points up how big an idiot you are.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip].

Actually, this is not true. According to the definition of luxury as
given
by Hyperdictionary,
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/searc...?define=luxury
1.. [n] something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
2.. [n] the quality possessed by something that is excessively
expensive
3.. [n] wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
According to the definition, objective characteristics play no part.


Yet there are few luxury items I know of that don't offer something more
than you would find in the plain vanilla version.

Mikey, you can't argue with the dictionary. What you "don't know of" is
the
consequence of being a profoundly stupid person.

If irony killed.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
" said:

10%! Not likely. If you choose to not use the overweight faceplates and
such, you can save money, but the components themselves are more expensive
for the DIYer than for the mass producer. There are some DIY groups that
pool their money to get better pricing on projects they have interest in,
but overall you can't build an amp or preamp for substantially less than a
competently designed one that's mass produced. Naturally they will sound
indistinguishable from each other, again assuming competent design.


I think I can build a Wavac for less than 10% retail :-)


I stand corrected, but that begs the question: Who would want one?

Come to think of it, the parts cost of a Levinson or Krell is probably
about 10...20% of retail.
Schematics are available on the net, if you're not able to design one
yourself.



Sorry I tend to think in terms of stuff that puts function ahead of form.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:05:54 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

I'm almost embarrassed

Actually, you should be COMPLETELY embarassed.

Your moral compass is waaaay off BTW. Maybe you need a Shakti Stone.

A double IKYA... way to go Dave! Keep that superior culture and intellect
flowing.

ScottW

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
"Then how do you explain the fact that high-end salons have a steady
stream of customers, many of them repeat customers?"

For the same reason astrologers and fortune tellers have a steady
stream of customers. High-end folk sell image and hope that the
marketing
pitch is really true and all the perceptions the brain can conjure tell
them it is true, as the choir of their peers and the audio mags cheer
them
on, just like believers in astrology and esp.

What you say is partly true. I see no point in assessing the percentage.
But
the high end also includes components of great merit.
In an argument, the middle ground gets lost.

Do you believe there is no middle ground?

The real High in high end is still almost exclusively speakers. While it
may be possible to find gear that has some problems passing a signal that
sounds different from the source being fed to it, it is more difficult than
finding speakers that sound different.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Rod Crawford" wrote in message


In a British trade magazine, Ken Kessler continually
makes the point that hifi high-end will only survive if
it can model itself on the high-end car, watch etc trades
where people buy things as much for status, looks etc as
for engineering utility - and are marketed by much more
sophisticated means than hifi. Very few hifi companies,
including hi-end ones, make much money these days. I
think consumers in there eagerness to get things at the
lowest prices often forget the other half of the
equation, producers who may love their chosen field but
also have to eat.

I think Kessler's point is well taken, but perhaps with
inadequate emphasis on high performance.

Most really expensive cars provide at least above average
performance. AFAIK a Rolls will do 0-60 in less than 6
seconds. And, the fastest production passenger cars in the
world are generally way over $100,000, one exception being
the Ariel Atom.

This compares with the very popular self-defeatment segment
of high end audio, complete with $10,000's power amplifiers
with miniscule power output and ludicrously high amounts of
distortion of all kinds.


Very true. At Linn in the late 1980s I used BMW (as well as B&W) as my
role model (by that time Jaguar, my childhood fantasy, particularly the
E-type, had gone astray in quality). Good performance and good styling are
not contradictory - and I agree are necessary if hifi hi-end manufacturers
are to survive - something recently taken on board by Classe amps since they
were taken over by B&W.

" wrote in message
ink.net...

I realize that my gruuunnt typing skills urrghh and my forgetting to use
greeek the spell check
feature allow gruuunttsuch mistakes to urrrgh get greeeek through.

You need a brain check.
Start with a CAT scan, and go from there.

" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip].

Actually, this is not true. According to the definition of luxury as
given
by Hyperdictionary,
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/searc...?define=luxury
1.. [n] something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
2.. [n] the quality possessed by something that is excessively
expensive
3.. [n] wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
According to the definition, objective characteristics play no part.


Yet there are few luxury items I know of that don't offer something
more
than you would find in the plain vanilla version.

Mikey, you can't argue with the dictionary. What you "don't know of" is
the
consequence of being a profoundly stupid person.

If irony killed.

So the best you can come up with is a plagiarism, a clear sign of an
inferior mind.

" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
"Then how do you explain the fact that high-end salons have a steady
stream of customers, many of them repeat customers?"

For the same reason astrologers and fortune tellers have a steady
stream of customers. High-end folk sell image and hope that the
marketing
pitch is really true and all the perceptions the brain can conjure tell
them it is true, as the choir of their peers and the audio mags cheer
them
on, just like believers in astrology and esp.

What you say is partly true. I see no point in assessing the percentage.
But
the high end also includes components of great merit.
In an argument, the middle ground gets lost.

Do you believe there is no middle ground?

The real High in high end is still almost exclusively speakers. While it
may be possible to find gear that has some problems passing a signal that
sounds different from the source being fed to it, it is more difficult
than
finding speakers that sound different.

Then you must be a real high end piece, Mikey, as you are a perfect parrot
of Arny Krueger.

Robert Morein said:

finding speakers that sound different.

Then you must be a real high end piece, Mikey, as you are a perfect parrot
of Arny Krueger.

I agree (of course) with your main point, i.e. that duh-Mikey is an idiot.
However, in this particular you've oversimplified the case. Mickey has a
long way to go in imitating the Krooglebeast. He's a mere acolyte in terms
of torturing logic. His ability to re-process others' words into
incoherent nonsense is barely nascent next to the Krooborg's. He is
confused about the meanings of "truth" and "lie", but whereas Mr. **** has
the two terms utterly conflated, Mickey's understanding is a shade on the
dodgy side of normative.

Mickey has indeed learned to parrot a few of the Krooborg's pet phrases.
You've probably noticed that every one of them is a copout or intellectual
surrender of some sort. Beyond that, however, Mickey is still the moron to
Krooger's krazy kat.

" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]

ididots like Middius and you
are the people who understand that measurements have actual meanbing and
that when two devices meansure similarly enough, they sound the same.

Mikey, if you ever find an "ididot" with "meanbing" and similar
"meansure",
let me know.

You realize, don't you, that your inferior mind is the cause of these
mistakes?


I realize that my typing skills and my forgetting to use the spell check
feature allow such mistakes to get through. I also realize that you claim
to believe that makes me somehow your inferior. The problem of course, is
how little you seem to understand about your own failings and what a putz
you appear to be when you dwell on my problems while turning a blind eye
to so many more important problems.

Do continue though, it can only weaken your standing (assuming that's
still possible) to constantly reveal how petty you are.


I more or less ignore your typos, I make a lot of them
myself. You are an idiot because everything you think is
filtered through several unworkable dogmas.

" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip].

Actually, this is not true. According to the definition of luxury as
given
by Hyperdictionary,
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/searc...?define=luxury
1.. [n] something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
2.. [n] the quality possessed by something that is excessively
expensive
3.. [n] wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
According to the definition, objective characteristics play no part.


Yet there are few luxury items I know of that don't offer something more
than you would find in the plain vanilla version.

Mikey, you can't argue with the dictionary. What you "don't know of" is
the
consequence of being a profoundly stupid person.

If irony killed.

Who was it the said that? Let me see, was it Ayn Rand? No, wait,
let me think, hmmm, I do know its not original.
Oh well, its an opinion you get to have.

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...


" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]

ididots like Middius and you
are the people who understand that measurements have actual meanbing
and
that when two devices meansure similarly enough, they sound the same.

Mikey, if you ever find an "ididot" with "meanbing" and similar
"meansure",
let me know.

You realize, don't you, that your inferior mind is the cause of these
mistakes?


I realize that my typing skills and my forgetting to use the spell check
feature allow such mistakes to get through. I also realize that you
claim
to believe that makes me somehow your inferior. The problem of course,
is
how little you seem to understand about your own failings and what a
putz
you appear to be when you dwell on my problems while turning a blind eye
to so many more important problems.

Do continue though, it can only weaken your standing (assuming that's
still possible) to constantly reveal how petty you are.


I more or less ignore your typos, I make a lot of them
myself. You are an idiot because everything you think is
filtered through several unworkable dogmas.

This is true. You work on the idiocy of the position; I'll work on the
idiocy of the idiot.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Robert Morein said:

finding speakers that sound different.

Then you must be a real high end piece, Mikey, as you are a perfect
parrot
of Arny Krueger.

I agree (of course) with your main point, i.e. that duh-Mikey is an idiot.
However, in this particular you've oversimplified the case. Mickey has a
long way to go in imitating the Krooglebeast. He's a mere acolyte in terms
of torturing logic. His ability to re-process others' words into
incoherent nonsense is barely nascent next to the Krooborg's. He is
confused about the meanings of "truth" and "lie", but whereas Mr. **** has
the two terms utterly conflated, Mickey's understanding is a shade on the
dodgy side of normative.

Mickey has indeed learned to parrot a few of the Krooborg's pet phrases.
You've probably noticed that every one of them is a copout or intellectual
surrender of some sort. Beyond that, however, Mickey is still the moron to
Krooger's krazy kat.

I see what you mean. In an asylum run by the inmates, Krueger is chairman of
the board, while Mikey is just a wavering trustee.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:09:32 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:05:54 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:

I'm almost embarrassed

Actually, you should be COMPLETELY embarassed.

Your moral compass is waaaay off BTW. Maybe you need a Shakti Stone.

A double IKYA...

You really ARE an idiot.

Try again.

No wait...please don't.

way to go Dave! Keep that superior culture and intellect
flowing.

And keep your second-hand business alive.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:59:02 +0800, "Alan Rutlidge"
wrote:


Yes. Only to have it go bang in your face.

No necessarily.

Are you Scottish, Alan?

I've built plenty of SS amplifiers including pre-amps and
power amps to in excess of 300W RMS per channel with no problems.

No doubt. I really meant if I were to build it. :-)

Then you should start with a kit., Paul. It's a good and very safe
way to take the first step.


Iain

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
Chinese manufacturing technology is scarily good, a challenge to the
future
of our nation, a challenge I think we will lose.

Will lose?
Already lost more likely.
But eventually the Chinese people will catch up, just like Japan did, then
it will probably be Africa's turn.

MrT.

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...
Testing
for performance is usually beyond the average home constructor because of
the test equipment required (low distortion oscillator, N&D set, a CRO and
dummy loads).

Or a computer and decent sound card.
Maybe the average constructor does have those after all, and a couple of
cheap jug elements.

MrT.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...
Testing
for performance is usually beyond the average home constructor because of
the test equipment required (low distortion oscillator, N&D set, a CRO
and
dummy loads).

Or a computer and decent sound card.
Maybe the average constructor does have those after all, and a couple of
cheap jug elements.

MrT.

Yes, I'm sure they do. With a SS BTL bridged power amplifier, reading the
output might be problematical with a nice solid earth on one leg.

Jug elements - hmmmmm... nice constant resistance when they warm up? Does
it work just as effectively with toasters? Never really thought of them but
I assume you've tested them (jug elements that is) for suitability and
stability. Personally I find the average PC soundcard has a bit too much
residual background noise of meaningful noise measurements in high
performance gear, but once again these may only be the limitations of my PC
and not necessarily yours.

Cheers,
Alan

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:06:17 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:

dave weil said:

Time for Scott to break out another Pabst's to go with his Rotel.

I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on
them.

By George, George, I think that's the first time I've even gotten a
whiff of your system. Care to go into detail?

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:15:58 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:



Missy Anonytroll squealed:

You know something about aromatic terpinols?
OOOOOOOH! Can I play with your HPLC & make some Tetrahydrocannabinolic
Acid Synthase?

Girls don't win ****ing contests.

These days they do.

paulie will explain this to you in case
you're the dried-up old hag they say you are.

In our collective aus.hi-fi imagination Ayn is a beautiful young
seductress. :-)

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:56:52 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


No doubt. I really meant if I were to build it. :-)

Then you should start with a kit., Paul. It's a good and very safe
way to take the first step.

To be honest, Iain, I have built small kit headphone amps etc over the
years, but my eyes just won't allow it anymore. I'm flat out seeing
the circuit board these days, let alone being let loose with a
soldering iron.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:19:50 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


I could not stand what I heard. Vinyl was awful. What had changed?

Well, I was always very intolerant of surface noise. Having not had to
suffer it for many years, I'm even more intolerant. Vinyl is
definitely never coming back into my life

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:56:52 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


No doubt. I really meant if I were to build it. :-)

Then you should start with a kit., Paul. It's a good and very safe
way to take the first step.

To be honest, Iain, I have built small kit headphone amps etc over the
years, but my eyes just won't allow it anymore. I'm flat out seeing
the circuit board these days, let alone being let loose with a
soldering iron.'


Understood. I wear a magnifier glass on a headband when wiring.
It's only x2. My pal has one with a light, and a x4 lens:-)

Soldering is something that you can learn in ten minutes. Just
work slowly, and in short periods.

Those things should not prevent you from building something.
It's a great thrill to fire up an amp that you have built yourself.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches/Pics/C50_010.jpg





Cordially,

Iain
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches/

paul packer said:

I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on
them.

By George, George, I think that's the first time I've even gotten a
whiff of your system. Care to go into detail?

It's a multichannel power amp. It works.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 07:32:29 -0400, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:



paul packer said:

I may have to trade in my Rotel if they all have the stink of Scottie on
them.

By George, George, I think that's the first time I've even gotten a
whiff of your system. Care to go into detail?

It's a multichannel power amp. It works.

Not too much now!!

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:06:14 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


It's a great thrill to fire up an amp that you have built yourself.

Not if it blows up in....oh never mind. :-)

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:06:14 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


It's a great thrill to fire up an amp that you have built yourself.

Not if it blows up in....oh never mind. :-)


Oh Ye of little faith:-))


Iain

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:19:50 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


I could not stand what I heard. Vinyl was awful. What had changed?

Well, I was always very intolerant of surface noise. Having not had to
suffer it for many years, I'm even more intolerant. Vinyl is
definitely never coming back into my life

Different strokes, of course. I'm all charged up about vinyl again.

"Iain M Churches" said:

Soldering is something that you can learn in ten minutes. Just
work slowly, and in short periods.


I strongly disagree.
Creating a good solder joint is somewhat like art.

Some people do get it right (whether or not in 10 minutes), others
never learn.

Believe me, I've seen kits that will give you the willies, joint-wise.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Iain M Churches" said:

Soldering is something that you can learn in ten minutes. Just
work slowly, and in short periods.


I strongly disagree.
Creating a good solder joint is somewhat like art.

Some people do get it right (whether or not in 10 minutes), others
never learn.

Perhaps it depends who is teaching them, Sander.
One needs to be shown how to do it, and recognise the
difference between a good and a bad (dry) joint.
But it's not difficult.

Iain

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
" said:

Too bad the big audio names seem to come into and out of fashion
with the whims of reviewers, the budgets of advertisement, or the
addition
of, "gasp", a consumer retail outlet.


Please note that second-hand quality audio gear seems to hold up its
value pretty well.

A used Krell, Mark Levinson, Rowland, Audio Research, yes even Quad or
Radford can't be had for a bargain.


But products from lesser known names that sound identical can be.


That may be true, but with the brands mentioned above, it's not just
about sonical performance IMO.

That's pretty much been my point for some time. If you pay more for an amp,
CD player, or whatever, you don't get better sound, you get bragging rights.
Once you achieve flat response without any form of audible distortion or
noise, and the ability to drive difficult loads, you have a perfect piece of
equipment. Adding heavy faceplates or designer caps, and coils, doesn't
really get you better sound, but it might get you a longer product life.

Nothing wrong with spending whatever someone wants for their gear, but
people should be aware of the fact that it doesn't get them better sound as
the manufacturers and SP type reviewers would like us to believe.

The comment was directed at Robert, who stated that "the big audio
names seem to come in and out of fashion", with which statement I
disagree, at least where it concerns well-known brand names that are
with us for several decades now.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...


" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]

ididots like Middius and you
are the people who understand that measurements have actual meanbing
and
that when two devices meansure similarly enough, they sound the same.

Mikey, if you ever find an "ididot" with "meanbing" and similar
"meansure",
let me know.

You realize, don't you, that your inferior mind is the cause of these
mistakes?


I realize that my typing skills and my forgetting to use the spell check
feature allow such mistakes to get through. I also realize that you
claim to believe that makes me somehow your inferior. The problem of
course, is how little you seem to understand about your own failings and
what a putz you appear to be when you dwell on my problems while turning
a blind eye to so many more important problems.

Do continue though, it can only weaken your standing (assuming that's
still possible) to constantly reveal how petty you are.


I more or less ignore your typos, I make a lot of them
myself. You are an idiot because everything you think is
filtered through several unworkable dogmas.
I am completely un-dogmatic. I update my ideas and beliefs when there is a
reason to do so.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...


" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ink.net...

[snip]

ididots like Middius and you
are the people who understand that measurements have actual meanbing
and
that when two devices meansure similarly enough, they sound the same.

Mikey, if you ever find an "ididot" with "meanbing" and similar
"meansure",
let me know.

You realize, don't you, that your inferior mind is the cause of these
mistakes?


I realize that my typing skills and my forgetting to use the spell
check
feature allow such mistakes to get through. I also realize that you
claim
to believe that makes me somehow your inferior. The problem of course,
is
how little you seem to understand about your own failings and what a
putz
you appear to be when you dwell on my problems while turning a blind
eye
to so many more important problems.

Do continue though, it can only weaken your standing (assuming that's
still possible) to constantly reveal how petty you are.


I more or less ignore your typos, I make a lot of them
myself. You are an idiot because everything you think is
filtered through several unworkable dogmas.

This is true. You work on the idiocy of the position; I'll work on the
idiocy of the idiot.

Why not work on being less of an idiot yourself.