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#1
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vinyl noise
hi everyone, happy new year
i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to maximise the music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others? my max budget (less is better) is £1000 total either new or s/h i am replacing a thorens td150mk2 sme 3009 ii (detachable headshell not improved) and ortofon om20 plus cheap phono box phono amp any help would be valued thanks david |
#2
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david weale wrote:
hi everyone, happy new year i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to maximise the music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others? The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment. I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative. Point your web browser at: http://www.lastfactory.com/ I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading is always fun. Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record playback equipment. Russ |
#3
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david weale wrote:
hi everyone, happy new year i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to maximise the music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others? There are many variables. The key, IMO, is keeping the stylus firmly in the groove with minimal extraneous oscillations. Very hard to do cheaply. Isolation of the mechanism from external vibrations is one goal; another related goal is to minimize vinyl/stylus/arm resonances not related to the signal. Also, listening room and listening habits must be decided upon. If you listen to low level chamber music on headphones your isolation requirements will be different than listening to hip-hop through PA speakers. I always appreciated the brute-force mass approach to taming resonances, myself. Many years ago I once saw an industrial looking machine from a Japanese company called Micro (strange name for this thing due to its sheer presence). The device had a huge stainless steel platter that must have weighed in at 40 or 50 pounds. The platter sucked down the record using a vacuum device, and the motor was decoupled from the platter assembly. I think the entire package was about 150 pounds. I've always been skeptical of some of the flimsy budget decks sold, but who knows? I know this is heresy amongst the high-end crowd, but if I were to buy another turntable I think I'd consider a Technics SL-1200. You can get one for under 500 dollars, and it appears much more substantial than anything out there near the price. The only thing it is missing is 78 rpm, but I recently came across an outfit that actually supplies a mod for this. I'd be interested in reading a review of this machine against some others, but I think that a double blind test for turntables would pose more difficulty than with electronics, since rapid switching might not be easy to work out. The problem with turntable reviews (at least the ones I remember since I no longer regularly read TAS or Stereophile) is that they are conducted like cable reviews. Nothing is ever controlled and no one is held to any standards of accountability. [If I am incorrect in this I offer apologies in advance to cover my ignorance.] The old Audio magazine used to sometimes have very good turntable reviews using measurements of acoustic feedback, etc, along with listening tests. I wish I could remember the reviewers name who conducted them. Was it Bert White? Anyhow, the few remaining mags that use controlled tests are probably not interested in vinyl, anymore. michael |
#4
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"Russ Button" wrote in message
... david weale wrote: hi everyone, happy new year i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to maximise the music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others? The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment. I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative. Point your web browser at: http://www.lastfactory.com/ I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading is always fun. Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record playback equipment. Russ I can only second this, loud and clear. I have been cleaning my records since the beginning, and using Last record preservative since it came out. The result is reduced noise and distortion, and a sound that much of the time is indistinguishable at normal listening levels from CD as far as silence is concerned. Moreover, LAST really does seem to help foreclose wear; some of my records from the 60's and early 70's sound remarkably "new", despite frequent use. |
#5
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Russ Button wrote:
david weale wrote: hi everyone, happy new year i am seeking advice on the best turntable/arm/cartridge (mm)/phono amp to maximise the music and minimise all kinds of surface noise - i understand some combinations of cartridge/arm/turntable show up noise less than others? The point of good vinyl playback equipment is to reveal what's there. Unfortunately, this also includes surface noise. The best way to attack your surface noise problem is with a combination of a good record cleaning machine and a good surface treatment. I have a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine I like. As for surface treatments, I've had good luck with LAST record preservative. Point your web browser at: http://www.lastfactory.com/ I absolutely guarantee you that using a record cleaning machine with LAST will make an enormous improvement in your record listening. Much more than changing turntables, though upgrading is always fun. Your current setup will give you some pretty good sound, though it certainly can be improved upon. Buy the record cleaning machine and LAST first, then consider upgrades to your record playback equipment. Russ I would concur with the recommendation of investing in a record cleaning machine. I've had my VPI 16.5 for over 10 years, and it does an excellent job, with no maintenance needs other than an occasional replacement of the suction wand supplied with the machine. However, the LAST record preservative, while not harmuful in my experience, is not IMHO, the last word in cleaning. For that I'd recommend using the Disc Doctor brushes and cleaning fluid, in combination with a RCM like the 16.5. You can learn about the Disc Doctor products, which are really excellent (and I've tried other brushes and fluids with the 16.5, inclujding LAST's own record cleaning liquids) at the following URL: www.discdoc.com While the post to which I'm responding doesn';t specify what turntable/arm/cartridge you're using, I would recommend you seriously consider either getting a turntable with a clamp, or if the brand you have does not come with one, you purchase an aftermarket clamp. Clamping can also help to reduce surface noise. Depending on your budget, I'd recommend one of the excellent VPI models, with one of their tonearms, and perhaps a Grado cartridge. All three items come in a broad range of prices, and all represent excellent value for the money. If possible, I'd try and include one of the wooden-bodied Grado cartridges from their Refernce or Statement series. Good luck. Bruce J. Richman |
#6
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"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
... ) at the following URL: www.discdoc.com A *miracle* record cleaner; enough said should you believe in miracles, I'd be more interested into looking for a miracle to restore my hearing to what it was like 50 years ago. It would be worthwhile to get that record cleaner into an analytical chemistry lab and transform that miracle into ordinary everyday household words in order to purchase it from CVS. |
#7
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The reviewer who you are probably thinking of is Edward E. Long.
Klaus michael wrote: The old Audio magazine used to sometimes have very good turntable reviews using measurements of acoustic feedback, etc, along with listening tests. I wish I could remember the reviewers name who conducted them. Was it Bert White? Anyhow, the few remaining mags that use controlled tests are probably not interested in vinyl, anymore. |
#8
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Here's whay I found on surface noise :
Factors responsible for surface noise are 1. Surface roughness : filler (tends further to chip off. leaving holes in the groove wall) 2. Welding and shearing of asperities (roughness, harshness) 3. The associated plastic deformation : microscale intermittency of plastic flow : volumetric version of stick slip behaviour, slipping of molecular aggregates from one position of equilibrium with their neighbours to another, discontinuous motion on microscale. 4. Thermal agitation of cutting stylus 5. Lead screw vibration transmitted to cutting head 6. Vibration of stylus induced by frictional drag, stick slip motion during sliding friction : each asperity (roughness) will first stick, then progressively experience elastic deformation in shear produced by the gross sliding motion, until finally the shear stress becomes high enough to produce a slip either by rupturing the asperity or by causing the adhering surfaces to separate. Surface noise sources as mentioned under 1. 5. are physically present in the groove, 4 and 5 are cut into the groove during cutting the master lacquer. The cartridge makes no difference between audio and such noise signals. The slip stick motion as described under 6., however, should not be transduced into output voltage. This depends on the quality of cartridge design. [1] Barlow : Limiting factors in gramophone reproduction, Wireless World, 1957, vol.63, p.228 [2] Hunt : On stylus wear and surface noise in phonograph playback systems, JAES, 1955, Jan., p.2 To add : In general, the tape used during recording in studio or concert hall is not used as source for cutting the master lacquer. The reason is that the length of tape and what can be put on a record's side have to be the same. Therefore, copies of 1st, 2nd or even 3rd generation are used for the cutting process. Each analog tape copy adds some 3 5 dB noise which, of course, can be found back on the record. LP wear of course can cause noise : In a study performed by Discwasher in 1980 it has been found that the quality of the vinyl plays an important role as far as sound quality is concerned. In particular the filler material used is of great importance, it seems that it has tendency to split off. Dust in the groove is pushed and pounded into the groove wall, scouring and gouging the wall. Klaus |
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