Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#41
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
The Idiot yapped idiotically: Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. I read it as a lament. Too bad you're an idiot and so can't understand simple statements. Or maybe it's your all-consuming fear of Mistress Jenn and her Whip Of Righteousness that makes you act like this. Regardless, you're an idiot. Have fun dancing with your uncounted fears until your dying days, Witless. |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? |
#43
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. Critical? I thought you liked to be snooty? That's because you're wrong. Again. If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. You changed the question. I asked about teenagers. Fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did before. Think it through. The set of people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape soda. For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. That number is now less, as people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've met who graduated from UofI. |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 29 Aug, 16:57, Jenn wrote:
*I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic well put!!! excellent |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 29 Aug, 18:02, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. *You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? *Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. ScottW- Huh???? I thought you preferred your Arcam. at your house you told me you didn't, the online you said you purposely lied to me and that you actually liked it. Now you seem to be saying you don't like it. |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
Jenn said: I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. Plastic is less likely to contain the defects and unevenness that occur naturally in wood. Thank's Jenn for, admitting-Jennn that you invariably preffer defects to perfection Jeenn. |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic wrote: "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:37:49 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech DarkSide of Nightmix wrote: "Those old-fashioned analog platters (with the warm sound) aren't back from the dead; they were never quite buried in the first place..." Business Week: http://atu.ca/6aecf 'warm sound' = euphonic distortion not present on the source tape. IMNSHO 'warm sound' = muffled high frequencies. It's amazing when audiophiles can find cables so incredibly mediocre that they have difficulty handling frequencies about 5khz and give that lovely warm sound as one would expect from a worn out record being played with a worn out stylus. Such progress, and usually for only $100/ft! But, of course, we all know that equalizers are bad so it's off to the cable shop to find filters. A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm to me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about 5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As far as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity either. Accuracy, perhaps. Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event in the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital technology. Flame on... No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to rationalize when CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300 CD player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name... warm! Yeah, I had a lot invested in vinyl when CDs came out. But I always had a love-hate relationship with vinyl. I knew how good it could sound, but it rarely did. It took a lot of maintenance to keep it sounding good, and even then the sound inevitably deteriorated. CDs were cheap, accurate and repeatable. Hi-fi for the masses. I think that was the problem. Any old kid on a skateboard could afford truly high fidelity without even caring or appreciating the concept. |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Jenn" wrote in message ... In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: "It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. If it sounds that way, it is because of the production quality, not because of the technology. Digital audio is the closest thing we have to a straight wire between the performance and your living room. |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic wrote: [...] A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm to me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about 5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As far as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity either. Accuracy, perhaps. Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event in the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital technology. Flame on... No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to rationalize when CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300 CD player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name... warm! The other problem: My cat has taken to sleeping on the dust cover of my expensive turntable. I play CDs now, because I can still get the CD drawer open with the cat sitting there. So the vinyl format simply is not cat-friendly. |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 29 Aug, 22:07, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. *You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. All recordings or just some? *Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. *All CD players make violins sound like plastic. *I've never actually heard a plastic violin. Where did you come to know what they sound like? ScottW- http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/MPV1.htm even the seller admits it ain't the greatest sound. |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in message news:5GLtk.1186$Ro1.265@trnddc04... "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:37:49 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan wrote: In rec.audio.tech DarkSide of Nightmix wrote: "Those old-fashioned analog platters (with the warm sound) aren't back from the dead; they were never quite buried in the first place..." Business Week: http://atu.ca/6aecf 'warm sound' = euphonic distortion not present on the source tape. IMNSHO 'warm sound' = muffled high frequencies. It's amazing when audiophiles can find cables so incredibly mediocre that they have difficulty handling frequencies about 5khz and give that lovely warm sound as one would expect from a worn out record being played with a worn out stylus. Such progress, and usually for only $100/ft! But, of course, we all know that equalizers are bad so it's off to the cable shop to find filters. A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm to me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about 5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As far as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity either. Accuracy, perhaps. Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event in the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital technology. Flame on... Yeah it really is. Too bad it doesn't sound as good....... :-) |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
! Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in message news:cy0uk.46$393.40@trnddc05... "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:20:01 GMT, Chronic Philharmonic wrote: [...] A worn out record being played with a worn out stylus never sounded warm to me. It sounds noisy, fuzzy and distorted. Reducing frequencies above about 5kHz might provide some relief from that, but it isn't high fidelity. As far as that goes, "warm" isn't a term I would associate with high fidelity either. Accuracy, perhaps. Since recording a live event (or generating the illusion of a live event in the studio) is an art form, high fidelity is a complex concept. IMHO, the most neutral medium and reproduction equipment would be the best way to reproduce the original sound. Vinyl, and most analog storage technology is measurably and objectively nowhere near as neutral as modern digital technology. Flame on... No argument here, but I didn't have a $10K phono investment to rationalize when CD's first came out. Mine's $10K! It has to sound better than a $300 CD player! That muffled sound has to be better... Let's give it a name... warm! The other problem: My cat has taken to sleeping on the dust cover of my expensive turntable. I play CDs now, because I can still get the CD drawer open with the cat sitting there. So the vinyl format simply is not cat-friendly. LOL! How true! |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. *You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. All recordings or just some? All to a greater or lesser degree. *Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. All CD players make violins sound like plastic. To a greater or lesser degree in certain ranges of the instrument. I hear a similar problem with female voice above about G on top of the treble staff. I've never actually heard a plastic violin. Where did you come to know what they sound like? I haven't. But I've heard plastic clarinets vs. wood clarinets, plastic piccs vs. wood piccs, plastic recorders vs. wood recorders, etc. |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message t In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? That's because you're wrong. *Again. You're snootier than you wish you were. You just don't like to hear about it. Oh I see. If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through. Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what it tastes like.... Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right? unless they're one of your students. Why does anyone even bother to try with you? *The set of people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them. I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency of exposure it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any acoustic music by the time they're age 12. Did I say anything resembling that? Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've met who graduated from UofI. Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any qualification for judgement. I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads. You are one of them. |
#57
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article ec0uk.34$Dj1.14@trnddc02,
"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message ... In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: "It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. If it sounds that way, it is because of the production quality, not because of the technology. Digital audio is the closest thing we have to a straight wire between the performance and your living room. I've heard the effect on CD. I've not heard the effect on the best LPs. |
#58
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. Please explain it to Scott. |
#59
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 16:57, Jenn wrote: *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic well put!!! excellent Thanks |
#60
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On Aug 30, 1:53*am, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote: *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? That's because you're wrong. *Again. You're snootier than you wish you were. You just don't like to hear about it. Oh I see. How dare you argue with 2pid after he's passed judgement from his Bungalow of Stupidity. Superman had his Fortress of Solitude. 2pid bought it from him and remodeled it. If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through. Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what it tastes like.... Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right? Try explaining it to him slowly. Use vinyl LPs or tubes as an example. Many teens don't know what they are, let alone hearing them. unless they're one of your students. Why does anyone even bother to try with you? In my case because I enjoy shredding the poor, dumb *******? *The set of people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them. I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency of exposure it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any acoustic music by the time they're age 12. Did I say anything resembling that? That doesn't matter. Do you enjoy the "Family Circus" cartoons? LoL. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've met who graduated from UofI. Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any qualification for judgement. I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads. * You are one of them. That is a very small sample to base a claim that half of all University of Illinois grads are imbeciles, Jenn. That would be like you saying that 100% of the engineers you know from there are stupid. |
#61
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On Aug 30, 1:56*am, Jenn wrote:
*Clyde Slick wrote: LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. You're trying to get Clyde into trouble, aren't you. |
#62
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. So Jenn, you think that all acoustic music sounds the same, Of course not, and you know that I didn't say that. or is there any variation from performance to performance? Of course. IOW, is the concept of "What acoustic music typically sounds like" really a valid concept? I guess my ears are still good enough so that I hear variations among what acoustic music sounds like. Therefore it can't possibly be a fixed reference for me. As I already wrote and have written to you several times before, there are ways that acoustic music in a performance space NEVER sounds. There are actually an infinite number of alternatives either way. I've definitely been at live performances where the sound was so bad that I sat there wishing for even a fairly modest stereo. That's what to be avoided, IMO. What needs to be avoided is all this posturing about vinyl and the sound of live music - given all the clearly audible flaws in even the best vinyl playback. Most of the people who rant on this way actually don't hear that much live sound, anyway. It's just a cliché they picked up from their favorite hi fi salesman or high end audio ragazine. |
#63
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. No, right. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water every time. The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of lifelike sound. It's ALL artificial. Not necessarily. I've played CDs through a live sound system and temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going on. I can listen through a few tics. Leaving the remaining highly audible problems of rumble, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. Blame the production people, not the essentially perfect medium that is readily available to us all. |
#64
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"ScottW" wrote in message
On Aug 29, 1:57 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? Given all her rants about the glories of vinyl, one would think... Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. I blame it all on hysteria. |
#65
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , ScottW wrote: Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. Obviously Jenn, you lack my 55 years, more or less, of listening to vinyl. For the first 36 years of my life, basically vinyl was all that we had, and it often sucked mightily even though our player technology for the last 10 or so years was essentially what is available today. During that time I heard plenty of recordings that made music sound like it was played on plastic instruments. Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. Obviously a problem with lack of experience, but I think there is a little bias and hysteria tossed in. Nothing like recently blowing nearly a $grand on a vinyl player to keep the illusion going. |
#66
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Chronic Philharmonic" wrote in
message news:w90uk.33$Dj1.32@trnddc02 Yeah, I had a lot invested in vinyl when CDs came out. Ditto. But I always had a love-hate relationship with vinyl. Ditto, just like tubes. I knew how good it could sound, but it rarely did. It took a lot of maintenance to keep it sounding good, and even then the sound inevitably deteriorated. CDs were cheap, accurate and repeatable. Hi-fi for the masses. I think that was the problem. Any old kid on a skateboard could afford truly high fidelity without even caring or appreciating the concept. Agreed. As soon as CD players got to be cheap and plentiful, the CD format became a target for the high end ragazines. After all, they were minting so much money from ads by vinyl-centric retailers and manufacturers. |
#67
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. * Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW- remember that this comparison is over time. 'The population numbers have grown considerably since the first measure. The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased. Now it is extremely likely that a higher number of the larger current teenage population has not tasted grape soda than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago. |
#68
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote: On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. * Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW- remember that this comparison is over time. 'The population numbers have grown considerably since the first measure. The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased. Now it is extremely likely *You simply have no basis for that claim. that a higher number of the larger current teenage population has not tasted grape soda *Try to keep this connected with the original claim that fewer people know the sound of acoustic music. It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people know the sound of acoustic and more people don't. than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago. Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided. There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean and the never tasted it population. its deduction, not speculation. I said "more likely", and it certainly is that. A lower mean, a larger population, means it is considerably more likely than not that fewer numbers of teens tasted grape soda I am commenting upon your conclusions regarding statisitics, not on acoustic music. |
#69
Posted to rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On Aug 31, 8:16 am, Clyde Slick wrote:
On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. Critical? I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW- remember that this comparison is over time. 'The population numbers have grown considerably since the first measure. The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased. Now it is extremely likely that a higher number of the larger If by "extremely likely" you mean 'probabilty is close to 1' then you are simply wrong. Take any text book on statistic and try to comprehend first few chapters. If course if it is just your opinion, then we have nothing to discuss because opinions ofg an ignorant man cannot be trusted. current teenage population has not tasted grape soda than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago. vlad |
#70
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 31 Aug, 17:22, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 11:44*am, Clyde Slick wrote: On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote: On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote: On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. * Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW- remember that this comparison is over time. 'The population numbers have grown considerably since the first measure. The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased. Now it is extremely likely *You simply have no basis for that claim. that a higher number of the larger current teenage population has not tasted grape soda *Try to keep this connected with the original claim that fewer people know the sound of acoustic music. It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people know the sound of acoustic and more people don't. than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago. Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided. There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean and the never tasted it population. its deduction, not speculation. I said "more likely", and it certainly is that. *Which means you really have no idea and are making gross assumptions about a distribution for which you have virtually no applicable data. It does make it easier to speculate though. I "know" its more likey, that it is more likely is NOT speculation. |
#71
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On 31 Aug, 17:22, ScottW wrote:
On Aug 31, 11:44*am, Clyde Slick wrote: On 31 Aug, 11:42, ScottW wrote: On Aug 31, 8:16*am, Clyde Slick wrote: On 31 Aug, 10:40, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. * Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW- remember that this comparison is over time. 'The population numbers have grown considerably since the first measure. The mean nas decreased, the teenage population has increased. Now it is extremely likely *You simply have no basis for that claim. that a higher number of the larger current teenage population has not tasted grape soda *Try to keep this connected with the original claim that fewer people know the sound of acoustic music. It isn't a population growth claim in which both more people know the sound of acoustic and more people don't. than of number of the leser population of teenagers ten years ago. Pure speculation. Reduction of the mean is the only data provided. There may be no correlation at these levels between the mean and the never tasted it population. its deduction, not speculation. I said "more likely", and it certainly is that. *Which means you really have no idea and are making gross assumptions about a distribution for which you have virtually no applicable data. It does make it easier to speculate though. ScottW- I thought it over the stats and logic, I made a mistake, but NOT the one you accuse me of, a different one, in simple logic. A larger population and a lower mean possible could mean a higher number of teenagers tried grape soda, solely because of the larger population. The percentage of teens would likey be lower, but the trend of the absolute number of teens drinking grape soda is not predictable. With a lower percentage aqnd a higher population counterbalancing each other, it can't be predicted. |
#72
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , ScottW wrote: Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. Obviously Jenn, you lack my 55 years, more or less, of listening to vinyl. That's true. I'm only 51. For the first 36 years of my life, basically vinyl was all that we had, and it often sucked mightily even though our player technology for the last 10 or so years was essentially what is available today. During that time I heard plenty of recordings that made music sound like it was played on plastic instruments. I've heard lots of bad reproduction via LP, but bad in different ways than some digital. Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. Obviously a problem with lack of experience, lol A statement for which you have no evidence. but I think there is a little bias and hysteria tossed in. Of course you do. Nothing like recently blowing nearly a $grand on a vinyl player to keep the illusion going. You're entitled to your opinion. |
#73
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "ScottW" wrote in message On Aug 29, 1:57 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? Given all her rants about the glories of vinyl, one would think... What rants? As you know perfectly well, all I've said is that the best at home sound that I've heard is from the best LPs. I've also said that most CDs sound better than most LPs. Hardly a "rant". Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. I blame it all on hysteria. Sure you do. |
#74
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. No, right. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water every time. Good for you. I hear it differently. Please keep enjoying your music, and I'll enjoy mine. The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of lifelike sound. It's ALL artificial. Not necessarily. I've played CDs through a live sound system and temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going on. I can't imagine that happening, but good for you and for those people. Nothing coming through a speaker ever sounds close to real, IMO. |
#75
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:50*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 3:06*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 1:57*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message Or another name: *"It sounds more like typical acoustic music to ______ (insert name)." Mostly said by people who actually have no idea at all what the original acoustic performance sounded like because they weren't there. As I wrote, "typical acoustic music". Oh, so Jenn you think that all acoustic music sounds the same? What makes you think that? *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. *As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". *It's ALL artificial. *I can listen through a few tics. *I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. *You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. All recordings or just some? All to a greater or lesser degree. That would indicate there is a factor other than digital infuencing your perception. Why? *Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. *All CD players make violins sound like plastic. To a greater or lesser degree in certain ranges of the instrument. *I hear a similar problem with female voice above about G on top of the treble staff. I suspect your room curve of your digital system(s) is not representative of live music to you. Flat FR is not typical of live music. Some recordings have some compensation, others have none. Your vinyl rig likely provides some hi-freq rolloff that is more to your liking. For less than $100 and your PC you can set yourself up to measure it. Except that I've heard what I hear on all digital systems in all the rooms in which I've heard digital. Lots of articles available on room curves, here's just one. http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...what-why-you-n eed-how-do.html Probably the flattest HF response speakers I've owned were the Legacy's and your comments remind me a bit of them. ScottW Interesting thoughts, thanks. |
#76
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *Clyde Slick wrote: On 29 Aug, 17:56, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message . net In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. ScottW- LOL!!! today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. ScottW Scott, the example was statistics showing that fewer teenagers drink grape soda, not that the same number of teenagers who drank grape soda years ago now drink less of it. See the difference? |
#77
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
In article
, ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:53*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 3:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:46*pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 2:04*pm, Jenn wrote: In article m, *vlad wrote: On Aug 29, 1:41 pm, Jenn wrote: In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message et In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message l.ne t In article , Andrew Barss wrote: In rec.audio.tech Arny Krueger wrote: Pretty easy to simulate, if you are handy with an equalizer. How to increase "warmth": snip Has anyone ever manufactured a device to do this automatically, i.e. a "vivyl warmth"-ifier? * Given that some people (claim to) really enjoy the sound of vinyl, this would seem to have a built-in market. Why do you say, "claim to"? Simple, because an individual's preference for vinyl might have nothing to do with actual sound quality. True with CDs too, of course. Of course, but why would one feel compelled to make *such an off-topic comment? Just being clear. There does seem to be a general preference for sound with less audible noise and distortion, which is one reason why CD's outsell LPs by more than 100: 1. Fewer and fewer know what acoustic music typically sounds like. * What an elitist statement to make. Not at all. Yeah, it was a bit snooty. No, it's not, but I understand your need to try to be critical. *Critical? *I thought you liked to be snooty? That's because you're wrong. *Again. You're snootier than you wish you were. You just don't like to hear about it. Oh I see. If stats show that fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did 10 years ago, is it "snooty" to say that fewer teenagers now know what grape soda tastes like? *If you obviously think grape soda is some sign of culture and culinary appreciation, yeah, and it's also wrong. I drink far less soda than I once did, but I still know what they taste like. Your conclusion is not a given from the facts presented. You changed the question. *I asked about teenagers. *Fewer teenagers drink grape soda than they did before. *Think it through. Doesn't mean they've never had a grape soda and can't remember what it tastes like.... Scott, you do understand that people aren't teenagers forever, right? George and sshhh may disagree. But the point stands. Just because less grape soda overall is consumed by teenagers in no way demonstrates that more teenagers have never had a grape soda. The mean may have gone from dozens to a dozen. The doesn't mean the distribution has a tail approaching zero. unless they're one of your students. Why does anyone even bother to try with you? Trying to convince me that wrong is right and poor logic suffices for "critical thinking? *The set of people who are teenagers are less and less exposed to the taste of grape soda. *For my point about acoustic music, x number of people were exposed to acoustic music in, say, 1970. *That number is now less, as people who did hear it pass away, with fewer people replacing them. I think it's absurd to assume that even with a reduction in frequency of exposure it has ever gotten to the point where someone has never heard any acoustic music by the time they're age 12. Did I say anything resembling that? Yes you did by claiming that fewer people know what acoustic music sounds like. I've never said that the number of people who have EVER heard acoustic music is shrinking. But since the trend over the last 40 or so years has been the fewer NEW people started attending acoustic concerts, and the trend over the last 20 or so years is that fewer acoustic instruments are sold and played, the reasonable assumption is that fewer people than 40 years ago know how those instruments TYPICALLY sound. Ask your community college students for some assistance with your critical thinking. I'm afraid that they're quite better at it than half of the people I've met who graduated from UofI. Foolish comments like that only prove you lack any qualification for judgement. I've known (in a broad sense, meaning including online) two UofI grads. * You are one of them. Online is a pathetic substitute for knowing. ScottW |
#78
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On Aug 31, 11:12*pm, Jenn wrote:
*ScottW wrote: On Aug 29, 11:56*pm, Jenn wrote: *Clyde Slick wrote: today's teeneagers were not teenagers 10 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bingo. *Please explain it to Scott. Doesn't change anything. Means can shift dramatically while the zero exposure count remains outside the distribution and unaffected by mean change. * Your premise is the count outside the normal distribution is changing while the evidence for your claim is based upon the average. That is foolish. Scott, the example was statistics showing that fewer teenagers drink grape soda, not that the same number of teenagers who drank grape soda years ago now drink less of it. *See the difference? Asking 2pid to see something is foolish. 2pid is blind. |
#79
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
On Aug 31, 10:43*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article , *"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message *There are ways that acoustic music NEVER sounds, Exactly, acoustic music never has rumble, tics, pops, inner groove distortion, rolled off highs and lows, etc. Yet I have yet to hear an LP that fails to have one or more of those failings. I've visited the homes of audiophiles with tens of thousands in audio gear, but yet when they play vinyl, one or more of those failings is audible. I've been to what are alleged to be some of the best high end audio shows around, and even in carefully-setup listening rooms, the vinyl always has one or more of those problems. and there are plenty of recordings that sound that way. Right, and among the "recordings that sound that way", I can count on vinyl to stick its hand right up and say "I've got clearly audible flaws". We've been through this before. Right Jenn, and the only logical conclusion is that there's something going on with you that keeps you from hearing the well-known audible flaws of vinyl. Wrong Arny. No, right. * As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". Both arsenic and water can be poisonous, but I'll pick the glass of water every time. Good for you. *I hear it differently. *Please keep enjoying your music, and I'll enjoy mine. The sound quality failings of the vinyl format are well-known and generally-agreed-upon to be by far the stronger poison to our mutual goal of lifelike sound. * It's ALL artificial. Not necessarily. *I've played CDs through a live sound system and temporarily fooled people into thinking there is a live performance going on. I can't imagine that happening, but good for you and for those people. * Nothing coming through a speaker ever sounds close to real, IMO. I've been fooled before, but only when there are corners or hallways between the source and me. I think GOIA's bias is showing. |
#80
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message In article , ScottW wrote: Wrong Arny. As I've said many times before, it's a matter of "picking your poison". It's ALL artificial. I can listen through a few tics. I can't listen through a recorded violin sound that resembles an instrument made of plastic. You think digital does that to a recording of a violin? I don't know, but I've never experienced that on LP, and I have on CD. Obviously Jenn, you lack my 55 years, more or less, of listening to vinyl. That's true. I'm only 51. I guess you were very indiscriminate when you were young, because you obviously didn't notice the horrors of vinyl in the day. For the first 36 years of my life, basically vinyl was all that we had, and it often sucked mightily even though our player technology for the last 10 or so years was essentially what is available today. During that time I heard plenty of recordings that made music sound like it was played on plastic instruments. I've heard lots of bad reproduction via LP, but bad in different ways than some digital. That is a meaningless statement. Well it has meaning, but its a truism. Perhaps your CD player is broken. Even my Arcam doesn't do that. Nope, checked out fine 6 mo. ago. Besides, I'm speaking about all the CD players I've heard. Obviously a problem with lack of experience, lol A statement for which you have no evidence. Yes I do, I have months and months of your statements as evidence, Jenn. but I think there is a little bias and hysteria tossed in. Of course you do. Really? That's a staement for which you have no compelling evidence. Nothing like recently blowing nearly a $grand on a vinyl player to keep the illusion going. You're entitled to your opinion. You're entitled to try to justify your poor judgement, Jenn.; |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell | General | |||
Audiophiles' Delight: Vinyl LPs Still Sell | Audio Opinions | |||
FS: Pack Rat's Delight Patchbay, wiring, XLR and TRS | Pro Audio | |||
bass tone on rapper's delight | Pro Audio | |||
To Sell or Not to Sell: Nakamichi 1000 Tri-Tracer cassette deck | Marketplace |