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Attenuate highest highs?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 12th 20, 12:19 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
exceptionally
well.

I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz.
However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
other
speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to
listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
70
kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).

So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor?
Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
balance?

I have other speakers I could use but these just sound so damn good
otherwise.
Re-discovering music from my past through these is amazing, music I've been
listening to for decades has new stuff in it... (A cliche but very true in
this case.)

I tried using a pair of Goodmans Mezzo IIs (that I've always liked) for a
few
days but they are lacking in the very upper frequencies (likely due to the
32mm SEAS tweeter). I want the highs to be there but not in a piercing way.

Input appreciated.
--
Shaun.

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  #2  
Old February 13th 20, 04:59 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
UnsteadyKen
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Posts: 176
Default Attenuate highest highs?

In article >,

~misfit~ says...

> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level?
>

Try the acoustic disrupter method:-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue...stic_disrupter


--
Ken
  #3  
Old February 13th 20, 11:18 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
~misfit~[_3_]
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Posts: 93
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 14/02/2020 5:59 am, Unsteadyken wrote:
> In article >,
>
> ~misfit~ says...
>
>> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
>> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level?
>>

> Try the acoustic disrupter method:-)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue...stic_disrupter


I considered physical barriers (I no longer leave the grilles off them and have considered
'thickening' the upper part). That section of Wkipedia you linked ends with ... "suggesting that
more controllable and less random electronic filtering would be preferable" which is where my
thought processes ended up.

I have a few examples of acoustic lenses on my parts shelf (mainly from old Sansui speakers) but
after researching and finding they were designed to disperse high frequency sound horizontally
rather than attenuate it decided against trying to use a lens.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #4  
Old February 14th 20, 12:11 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Peter Wieck[_2_]
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Posts: 119
Default Attenuate highest highs?

What are you using for a pre-amp/power amp and/or integrated amp? Does it have tone controls? A small cut to the treble might solve this neatly. But:

I run an AR Athena sub-sat system in my office - via a Dynaco PAS-3x & ST-35. Given that even though I am "the boss", I am in an office environment so I keep the volume low. Were I to run the system "flat", I would have exactly the problem you describe. The 3x has a 'loudness' switch that boosts the bass relative to the treble, just a bit. That allows a more balanced perceived sound at the low levels I use. That capability went out of style more-or-less in the 1980s. The other option would be an outboard equalizer - overkill certainly, but an option.

The 'disrupter' method, while cute, may require you to try many sorts of materials before you are satisfied and/or may require different materials based on the signal at hand. It does *work* however.
  #5  
Old February 14th 20, 05:18 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Trevor Wilson[_3_]
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Posts: 130
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 12/02/2020 11:19 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
> near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
> exceptionally
> well.
>
> I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz.
> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
> other
> speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to
> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
> 70
> kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
>
> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor?
> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
> balance?
>
> I have other speakers I could use but these just sound so damn good
> otherwise.
> Re-discovering music from my past through these is amazing, music I've been
> listening to for decades has new stuff in it... (A cliche but very true in
> this case.)
>
> I tried using a pair of Goodmans Mezzo IIs (that I've always liked) for a
> few
> days but they are lacking in the very upper frequencies (likely due to the
> 32mm SEAS tweeter). I want the highs to be there but not in a piercing way.
>
> Input appreciated.
> --
> Shaun.
>


**If your hearing is attenuated at HF, then you don't need to further
attenuate HF (assuming the speaker has been competently designed).
You've already stated that you can't hear anything above 16 ~ 17kHz.
Perhaps you should consider room effects. Have you measured the in-room
response?

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #6  
Old February 14th 20, 06:32 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Peter Wieck[_2_]
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Posts: 119
Default Attenuate highest highs?

I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
  #7  
Old February 14th 20, 09:05 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
[email protected]
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Posts: 334
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-5, ~misfit~ wrote:
> I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
> high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
> near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
> exceptionally well.
>
> I'll be 60 next year and can't hear a huge amount above around 16 - 17 kHz.
> However they distract me too much with sounds that I can barely hear (no
> other
> speakers that I've heard lately do this). Because of this they're tiring to
> listen too. Sony sold them as being ideal for SACD and claim they go up to
> 70
> kHz (and call them "Extended Definition" speakers).
>
> So what can I add to the cross-over to attenuate the highest highs but leave
> the main body of the upper frequencies at the same level? A tiny inductor?
> Surely a resistor would drop all tweeter frequencies and mess with the
> balance?


I would posit that what you find irritating is not the presence of
stuff above 15 kHz, but stuff below that. And if there IS a lot of
HF material, especially extended bandwidth material (and I'd give
at least even odds there is NOT), then what you are finding annoying
is the result of some non-linear process in the speakers.

To put it bluntly, I would not be the least bit surprised to find
that something in your speakers (or, more generally, somewhere in
your system) is broken. It could be a mechanical problem in the
tweeters like a buzz or rattle problem, there could be some electronic
issue somewhere, all of which is if there IS very high frequency
information, generating signal at a level higher enough and a frequency
low enough that it would be EASILY audible to you if isolated.

That's the suspect I would be pursuing, knowing what I know about
such things.
  #8  
Old February 16th 20, 05:58 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Trevor Wilson[_3_]
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Posts: 130
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range.


**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem. Room and speaker/room
interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
perceived audible problems in an audio system.


And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.

**Well, again: Assuming there is nothing broken in the speaker (which,
obviously, should be checked first, to ensure correct functioning), then
the room is the next item to check.


>
> I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.


**And trust me on this: The room is, by a very considerable margin, the
dominant factor in audible problems with systems.

>
> Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.


**I am making several assumptions in my diagnosis:

1) That the speakers have been professionally and correctly designed and
constructed. Either of these things may not be true. I don't know. Sony
is a proper brand, so I assume design and construction has been done to
decent standards.

2) That the amplifier is not broken.

Therefore, the room is the problem. Room treatments can be challenging
to apply, but they can be very, VERY cost-effective.

The room will be the problem. Too many hard surfaces is most likely.


>
> Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there.


**No. Tone controls (and loudness controls) are very much a hit and miss
treatment. Without proper measurements and controls, tone controls are
pretty much a waste of time.


If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty
issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at
low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the
speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor,
or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might
sacrifice sound-stage.

**The speakers should be placed in a location where they have been
designed for. Any other location will deliver unpredictable results.

>
> Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.
>


**Room treatments are hardly heroic measures. Room treatments are
FUNDAMENTAL to the proper operation of a sound reproduction system. In
fact, I would posit that the STARTING point of a sound reproduction
system is the room. Everything else is secondary. And, when I say 'room
treatments' I do include speakers and speaker location as part of the
process. However, since the speakers are already chosen and, presumably,
located appropriately, then room treatments (damping materials) is the
next approach to take.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #9  
Old February 17th 20, 07:50 AM posted to rec.audio.high-end
Mat Nieuwenhoven
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Posts: 44
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 01:19:43 +1300, ~misfit~ wrote:

>I have a pair of 2-way speakers that I like very much - except they go too
>high and are too bright. They're Sony SSK-30s and otherwise make great
>near-field monitors in my office. They image and reproduce voice
>exceptionally
>well.


It is possible there is a nasty resonance in the tweeter. That can
only be determined by measuring the speaker, but requires some
hardware (electret microphone, analog audio input/output
possibility), you don't need a 'dead' room for that. If you can go
that route, check out www.artalabs.hr, I have no relation with them.

Mat Nieuwenhoven



  #10  
Old February 17th 20, 10:27 PM posted to rec.audio.high-end
[email protected]
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Posts: 334
Default Attenuate highest highs?

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 1:29:45 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
>> I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
>> dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being >> dissipated in the high range.

>
> **Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
> Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.


AAT the kind of frequencies the original poster is talking
about, it is almost certinaly NOT a room problem. It would
be about the LAST thing I would go looking after.

Room and speaker/room

> interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
> perceived audible problems in an audio system.


Not at the kinds of high frequency (>10 kHz) the poster is taking
about, no.

In all the speakers I have measured in rooms, and that number is
not inconsiderable, the higher frequencies, and especially that
region around and above 10 kHz, shows the closest approach to the
anechoice response of the loudspeaker.

Why? For it to be a room problem, you have to have a LOT of paths
(and by "a lot", I mean the preponderance of all possible paths)
whose length is proximal to whiole number multiples of eithe 1/4
or 1/2 a wavelenngth to within a high degree of precision (maybe
+- a few degrees total phase error), and we're talking wavelength
on the order of an inch or less. Further, all these paths must have
a very low total absorption along the paths.


> And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
> going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
> are overly bright, we should start there.


I would suggest this will be a fruitless pursuit.

Now, if it was just a LITTLE lower in frequency, like a factor
a hundred times lower, you might have a case.

 




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