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#81
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#82
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#84
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(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100526489k@trad...
In article writes: I'm looking for a good all around mic so I'm not sure if i should get another small condensor stereo pair, like the NT-5's. The closest thing I've found to a good all around mic is a Neumann KM84, but you can't buy them new any more and used ones go for close to twice your budget (each). While you're on the right track trying mics in the shop, the acoustics are bound to be different than how you're recording at home, and that will make a large difference unless you're placing the mic(s) very close to the guitar (which you're not). What you're hearing is not so much the difference in the response of the mics straight on, but rather how they sound off axis, picking up the reflections of the guitar off the floor and walls. Those reflections will be different at home than at the shop. The NT5 mics are good, maybe a little better than what you have now, but I suggest that rather than change the mics, you change the way (and place) you're recording first. It may sound great to you in that stairwell, but it obviously doesn't record very well. This is not uncommon in an reflective space. thanks. I did mic pretty close (about 1ft), also i put the MXL in the exact same position as a control so i thought the relative comparison should be OK. This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? |
#85
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"caveplayer" wrote in message
om... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100526489k@trad... thanks. I did mic pretty close (about 1ft), also i put the MXL in the exact same position as a control so i thought the relative comparison should be OK. This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? It sort of is; as with guitars, there are several price points where microphones take a quantum leap. Microphones in the $300-600 range tend to sound a lot better on many applications than microphones less than $300. Mikes in the $600-1000 range are usually a major step up again. And from $1000 up most of the microphones are excellent quality, but differ radically in their sound, just as good guitars do. At that point you choose characteristics, as you do with guitars. I used a lot of weasel words in that paragraph, because there are a lot of fudge factors. I said "on many applications" because some mikes work wonderfully on some things and horribly on others, and that differs for different users as well. For example, I think a Shure SM81 is a moderately decent microphone in the $350 price range -- not fantastic, but decent -- for a lot of different instruments. To my ears, though, it stinks for vocals. But WFMT in Chicago, a radio station with a helluva reputation for good sound, uses it as an announce mike. Similarly, I usually don't think much of a Neumann KM-84 for vocals, other than distant-miking choirs. But it's fantastic on many instruments, including some guitars. But not all. And so on. Also, there are a few microphones which belie their price points. A good pair of Oktava MC012s can do things that you wouldn't expect from mikes that go for $199 apiece. Maybe they're not up there with Schoepses and the like, but there have been instruments (like my bandmate's mandolin) where they sounded better than a KM-84. If you get 'em from the Sound Room, so you have some quality control, they might be a good start for you. And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? With some listening experience, yes. I can hear the differences between microphones on a cassette deck, and so, I venture to say, could most of the folks on this newsgroup. Peace, Paul |
#86
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"caveplayer" wrote in message
om... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100526489k@trad... thanks. I did mic pretty close (about 1ft), also i put the MXL in the exact same position as a control so i thought the relative comparison should be OK. This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? It sort of is; as with guitars, there are several price points where microphones take a quantum leap. Microphones in the $300-600 range tend to sound a lot better on many applications than microphones less than $300. Mikes in the $600-1000 range are usually a major step up again. And from $1000 up most of the microphones are excellent quality, but differ radically in their sound, just as good guitars do. At that point you choose characteristics, as you do with guitars. I used a lot of weasel words in that paragraph, because there are a lot of fudge factors. I said "on many applications" because some mikes work wonderfully on some things and horribly on others, and that differs for different users as well. For example, I think a Shure SM81 is a moderately decent microphone in the $350 price range -- not fantastic, but decent -- for a lot of different instruments. To my ears, though, it stinks for vocals. But WFMT in Chicago, a radio station with a helluva reputation for good sound, uses it as an announce mike. Similarly, I usually don't think much of a Neumann KM-84 for vocals, other than distant-miking choirs. But it's fantastic on many instruments, including some guitars. But not all. And so on. Also, there are a few microphones which belie their price points. A good pair of Oktava MC012s can do things that you wouldn't expect from mikes that go for $199 apiece. Maybe they're not up there with Schoepses and the like, but there have been instruments (like my bandmate's mandolin) where they sounded better than a KM-84. If you get 'em from the Sound Room, so you have some quality control, they might be a good start for you. And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? With some listening experience, yes. I can hear the differences between microphones on a cassette deck, and so, I venture to say, could most of the folks on this newsgroup. Peace, Paul |
#87
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On 2004-11-16, caveplayer wrote:
There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Making it one of the less expensive of classical instruments. You'll get no sympathy from me (a piano player) or my spouse (a french horn player). |
#88
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On 2004-11-16, caveplayer wrote:
There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Making it one of the less expensive of classical instruments. You'll get no sympathy from me (a piano player) or my spouse (a french horn player). |
#89
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"caveplayer" wrote in message
om Yes, i know there have been posts on this but I'm lazy, OK. I'm recording classical guitar with 2 MXL 603S's into a Tascam us122 into laptop. Not completely happy with the sound. It's good but I'm extremely fussy. I've spent countless nights optimizing mic placement and am at the point of saying, well maybe i should have bought one good mic instead of two mediocre one's. At least i would have saved alot of time messing around with placement. Let's play a game called "know your mics". IME, the most notable thing about MXL 603s is that they are broad cardioids. Therefore, when you work with them you get a lot more *room* in the track than you would get with more typical, narrower cardioids. If the room is good, then picking up room is a good thing. If the room is problematical, well then you probably don't want to use 603s. To me, the important thing is having alternatives. With *JUST* 603's your life is a one-option feasibility study. IME with mics, there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all. If there was, then a mic like the 603 might be a good choice because it is reasonably flat, has some directivity, and is not especially noisy. OTOH, the 603 is a horrid hand-held vocal mic, for example. Put it on a stand with a good pop filter, and it can do some nice stuff. When I was looking for a true cardioid to be an alternative to 603s for live sound, for better or worse I picked CAD 95s (current model = CAD 195, a slightly different mic). No surprise to me, I ended up using lot more 95s (8 used all the time) than 603s (4 used less frequently). They have an appreciably narrower true cardioid pickup pattern, and they have really good shock and handling noise resistance. They are designed to be a close-working vocal mic, but they are sensitive enough and warm enough to be used over longer distances. These mics cost me an average of $75 each after a few months of picking them off when they showed up on eBay. No big investment, but performers like them, and they work for me. When I was looking for a true omni to be an alternative to 603s for live sound, for better or worse I picked Behringer ECM 8000s. They are incredibly omni. In a live sound context, such residual background noise issues as they may have, are not problematical. I'm probably one of the just three people in the universe who use omnis for live sound but they can work in some contexts. Note, an omni is going to prone to being noisy, even if they are electrically quiet. I learned that after using DPA 1006s for about 18 months. Again, the 8000s are relatively uncolored mics. So experts, please humor me and except the fact that it's not the room, not my playing, and not placement. Where would you put your money, souncard or mic. Mics are very strong determining factors in sound color and sound quality. Note, these are different things. The guy at guitar center, I cringe every time i walk in there, suggested i use an omni mic in combination with the 603. What gives there? IME Guitar Center is a good place to stay away from. I can't buy an $3 XLR connector or $1300 studio monitors in less than an hour, mostly spend waiting around for too-little staff to deal with customers who don't know what they want. Their staff does not impress me and I would never rely on them for purchasing advice anyhow, so the time is a total loss. Anyway, i'm willing to spend maybe a few hundred bucks on another mic if it helps. Any advice/suggestions?? If I had to do it all over again, and I had only a pair of 603s, I'd pick up a pair of 8000s and a pair of 195s and see where they took me. I'd do the purchases online, even if it turned out that Musican's Friend (Guitar Center in online drag) turned out to be the retailer of choice. |
#90
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"caveplayer" wrote in message
om Yes, i know there have been posts on this but I'm lazy, OK. I'm recording classical guitar with 2 MXL 603S's into a Tascam us122 into laptop. Not completely happy with the sound. It's good but I'm extremely fussy. I've spent countless nights optimizing mic placement and am at the point of saying, well maybe i should have bought one good mic instead of two mediocre one's. At least i would have saved alot of time messing around with placement. Let's play a game called "know your mics". IME, the most notable thing about MXL 603s is that they are broad cardioids. Therefore, when you work with them you get a lot more *room* in the track than you would get with more typical, narrower cardioids. If the room is good, then picking up room is a good thing. If the room is problematical, well then you probably don't want to use 603s. To me, the important thing is having alternatives. With *JUST* 603's your life is a one-option feasibility study. IME with mics, there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all. If there was, then a mic like the 603 might be a good choice because it is reasonably flat, has some directivity, and is not especially noisy. OTOH, the 603 is a horrid hand-held vocal mic, for example. Put it on a stand with a good pop filter, and it can do some nice stuff. When I was looking for a true cardioid to be an alternative to 603s for live sound, for better or worse I picked CAD 95s (current model = CAD 195, a slightly different mic). No surprise to me, I ended up using lot more 95s (8 used all the time) than 603s (4 used less frequently). They have an appreciably narrower true cardioid pickup pattern, and they have really good shock and handling noise resistance. They are designed to be a close-working vocal mic, but they are sensitive enough and warm enough to be used over longer distances. These mics cost me an average of $75 each after a few months of picking them off when they showed up on eBay. No big investment, but performers like them, and they work for me. When I was looking for a true omni to be an alternative to 603s for live sound, for better or worse I picked Behringer ECM 8000s. They are incredibly omni. In a live sound context, such residual background noise issues as they may have, are not problematical. I'm probably one of the just three people in the universe who use omnis for live sound but they can work in some contexts. Note, an omni is going to prone to being noisy, even if they are electrically quiet. I learned that after using DPA 1006s for about 18 months. Again, the 8000s are relatively uncolored mics. So experts, please humor me and except the fact that it's not the room, not my playing, and not placement. Where would you put your money, souncard or mic. Mics are very strong determining factors in sound color and sound quality. Note, these are different things. The guy at guitar center, I cringe every time i walk in there, suggested i use an omni mic in combination with the 603. What gives there? IME Guitar Center is a good place to stay away from. I can't buy an $3 XLR connector or $1300 studio monitors in less than an hour, mostly spend waiting around for too-little staff to deal with customers who don't know what they want. Their staff does not impress me and I would never rely on them for purchasing advice anyhow, so the time is a total loss. Anyway, i'm willing to spend maybe a few hundred bucks on another mic if it helps. Any advice/suggestions?? If I had to do it all over again, and I had only a pair of 603s, I'd pick up a pair of 8000s and a pair of 195s and see where they took me. I'd do the purchases online, even if it turned out that Musican's Friend (Guitar Center in online drag) turned out to be the retailer of choice. |
#91
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#92
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#93
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:09:30 -0500, caveplayer wrote
(in article ) : http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording.../miccompare.sh tm l link didn't work for me? I'm not surprised. The line wrap moved the l to the next line. It's all one string with no spaces Ty Ford http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording...iccompare.shtm l -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#94
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:09:30 -0500, caveplayer wrote
(in article ) : http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording.../miccompare.sh tm l link didn't work for me? I'm not surprised. The line wrap moved the l to the next line. It's all one string with no spaces Ty Ford http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording...iccompare.shtm l -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#95
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thanks. I did mic pretty close (about 1ft), also i put the MXL in the exact same position as a control so i thought the relative comparison should be OK. This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? If you use dead strings on a $4000 guitar, do you hear how good the guitar is? The chain is as strong as the weakest link. The more good stuff you have, the better it gets, but yes, even in a so-so room (not a stairwell) getting a really good mic makes quite a difference, providing you can figure out where to put it. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#96
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thanks. I did mic pretty close (about 1ft), also i put the MXL in the exact same position as a control so i thought the relative comparison should be OK. This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? If you use dead strings on a $4000 guitar, do you hear how good the guitar is? The chain is as strong as the weakest link. The more good stuff you have, the better it gets, but yes, even in a so-so room (not a stairwell) getting a really good mic makes quite a difference, providing you can figure out where to put it. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#97
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:00:10 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): Anyway, i'm willing to spend maybe a few hundred bucks on another mic if it helps. Any advice/suggestions?? Spending a few hundred on a mic won't help. You have to aim higher. You have been advised by others that a KM84 works very nicely. It does. So do Schoeps. They are in the over $1000 range. You have an antagonistic circumstances. Great guitar, not so great recording gear/space. You are a player and not a recording facility. Accept that you may not be able to do it all to get the sound you want. Settle for less, or pay more. It's a simple thing really, we all deal with it. This is a no-brainer. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#98
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:00:10 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): Anyway, i'm willing to spend maybe a few hundred bucks on another mic if it helps. Any advice/suggestions?? Spending a few hundred on a mic won't help. You have to aim higher. You have been advised by others that a KM84 works very nicely. It does. So do Schoeps. They are in the over $1000 range. You have an antagonistic circumstances. Great guitar, not so great recording gear/space. You are a player and not a recording facility. Accept that you may not be able to do it all to get the sound you want. Settle for less, or pay more. It's a simple thing really, we all deal with it. This is a no-brainer. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#99
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In article writes: link didn't work for me? I'm not surprised. The line wrap moved the l to the next line. It's all one string with no spaces Next time, use TinyURL.com http://tinyurl.com/6czw2 -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#100
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In article writes: link didn't work for me? I'm not surprised. The line wrap moved the l to the next line. It's all one string with no spaces Next time, use TinyURL.com http://tinyurl.com/6czw2 -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
#101
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#102
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#103
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caveplayer wrote:
This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. Mercenary is the kind of place where a customer like you needn't really worry if you haven't heard of any particular line of gear. They don't mess with what doesn't work, and they find out what works by using the stuff. This ain't yer GC kinda concept. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? But a Josephson Series 4 from mercneary and start using it. Down the line you might want differently, but at least you'll then know something about using a decent mic. You'll come to understand what's better about the Josephson than the mics you're now using. Hell, you might decide you just want another Series 4 for stereo. -- ha |
#104
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caveplayer wrote:
This whole mic thing is overwhelming. I went to mercenary.com today just to browse. There's just so many mics out there. They had a few more brands i never heard of in my price range. Mercenary is the kind of place where a customer like you needn't really worry if you haven't heard of any particular line of gear. They don't mess with what doesn't work, and they find out what works by using the stuff. This ain't yer GC kinda concept. It's probably very similar to buying a classical guitar. Now that's something i know more about. There's all the crap you see at guitar center and sam ash, and then there are the real guitars that you have to search for. You really have to shell out at least $2000 to get a good classical. Is it the same with mics? And more importantly, with my modest equipment will i hear the difference between a $2000 Neumann and an $100 mxl? But a Josephson Series 4 from mercneary and start using it. Down the line you might want differently, but at least you'll then know something about using a decent mic. You'll come to understand what's better about the Josephson than the mics you're now using. Hell, you might decide you just want another Series 4 for stereo. -- ha |
#105
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If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask
to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric |
#106
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If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask
to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric |
#107
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"Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ...
If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? |
#108
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"Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ...
If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? |
#109
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#111
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#112
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#113
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"caveplayer" wrote in message om... "Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ... If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Probabilities. You *may* have a good-sounding stairwell. But the odds are very much against it. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. If you put some care into it, choose your dimensions and room treatment carefully, you can get a decent-sounding room. Smaller rooms are more problematical than bigger ones, which is one reason studios tend to be bigger, but you can get decent results. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). Go to the public library and check out one of F. Alton Everest's books on building a studio. Don't start with the Master Handbook of Acoustics, but with one of the simplified ones and work your way up. Yes, your background in physics will help -- a lot -- but it's worth reading Everest's simplified books because they include some sample designs which are worthy of study. Then get the Master Handbook -- probably you should buy that one, since you'll use it a lot. But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? Right; that's why the off-axis response of microphones is so important when you're doing XY. Oh, and the "almost touching" thing: The best way to do XY, most of the time, is to place the microphones so that the capsules are stacked, one above the other. If they're next to each other, but not touching -- like this (exaggerated): / \ , well, do a gedankenexperiment. Imagine a sound source to the left of the array. It will be louder in the left-pointing microphone, because it's on-axis to that one and off-axis to the other one. Well and good; that's how XY works. But it will arrive at the right-pointing microphone first, because it's closer to that one. So you get a loudness cue that the source is on the left (correct) and a time cue that it's on the right (wrong), and your stereo image gets muddled as a result. Probably not a huge amount if the mikes are half an inch apart, but I've seen folks put them 5 inches apart, and the results were pure mush. Peace, Paul |
#114
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"caveplayer" wrote in message om... "Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ... If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Probabilities. You *may* have a good-sounding stairwell. But the odds are very much against it. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. If you put some care into it, choose your dimensions and room treatment carefully, you can get a decent-sounding room. Smaller rooms are more problematical than bigger ones, which is one reason studios tend to be bigger, but you can get decent results. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). Go to the public library and check out one of F. Alton Everest's books on building a studio. Don't start with the Master Handbook of Acoustics, but with one of the simplified ones and work your way up. Yes, your background in physics will help -- a lot -- but it's worth reading Everest's simplified books because they include some sample designs which are worthy of study. Then get the Master Handbook -- probably you should buy that one, since you'll use it a lot. But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? Right; that's why the off-axis response of microphones is so important when you're doing XY. Oh, and the "almost touching" thing: The best way to do XY, most of the time, is to place the microphones so that the capsules are stacked, one above the other. If they're next to each other, but not touching -- like this (exaggerated): / \ , well, do a gedankenexperiment. Imagine a sound source to the left of the array. It will be louder in the left-pointing microphone, because it's on-axis to that one and off-axis to the other one. Well and good; that's how XY works. But it will arrive at the right-pointing microphone first, because it's closer to that one. So you get a loudness cue that the source is on the left (correct) and a time cue that it's on the right (wrong), and your stereo image gets muddled as a result. Probably not a huge amount if the mikes are half an inch apart, but I've seen folks put them 5 inches apart, and the results were pure mush. Peace, Paul |
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#117
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:55:38 -0500, caveplayer wrote
(in article ) : "Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ... If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? I personally think you're dealing pretty well with all of the input, even though you still might have a bit of denial about the staircase thing.. So it's the process for you (as it is for most of us) as well as the product. If you want a world class classical guitar sound, that's one thing. If you like experimenting with recording and acoustics, that's something else. Keep the place where those two pursuits overlap fluid. Don't get too wed to any concepts. Get a good foundation in recording practices. Learn the rules, then learn to break them. The fact that you're not happy with your technical efforts so far supports the thought that the staircase may not be helping you. The 603's are NOT the be all and end all of small diaphragm mics. The best placement in the universe can not overcome that. Meanwhile...... A lot of folks get sort of "digital" or bipolar.."Well if not THIS, then I'll do THAT!" The best solutions are often in the middle. Most of the folks who are trying to disabuse you of the staircase idea have a lot of experience. Most of them (myself included) would probably abandon the idea of trying to make a good acoustic environment in your situation and make one with a really good reverb...or two. You have an aversion to going to a studio. Get over it. And I'm not talking about a typical basement studio. I'm talking about a really good studio with the right gear, the right space and the people who know how to make the best out of them. Where are you (geographically)? You don't have to spend hours there. Do one piece and hope to be able to have reached a point where you can actually understand the difference in what you get there and what you get at home. Don't worry about possibly feeling bad about your recording effort when you hear the difference. You're there to put your dick in your back pocket and learn. As per your thoughts on XY recording, 90 degrees usually works. Almost touching is not the exact thing to consider. Try getting the diaphragms to occupy the same vertical axis so the sound from the guitar arrives at both capsules at the same time. The less you pay attention to that simple rule of physics, the more cancellation due to phase (time) differences will occur. Some prefer a left/right (horizontal) positioning. As I said before, keep it fluid. Try up/down (vertical) positioning. That way the stereo spread goes from treble to bass. Mic placement in terms of how far away and where on the neck or body can not be answered here, but a good starting position isusually near where the neck meets the body. The farther away from the guitar, the more room you hear. There is no right. There are many rights....and at least as many wrongs. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:55:38 -0500, caveplayer wrote
(in article ) : "Eric K. Weber" wrote in message ... If you like the sound of recordings made in churches go visit a few and ask to try their space.... It has to be better than a stairwell. Look for one where the air handlers for the heating/cooling system can be turned off and a location or time with no traffic noise problems. Rgds: Eric Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Anyway, this is turning into group therapy session and i am the only client. So thanks everyone for being patient(although i think someone was getting close to screaming at me). I'm all for trying out mics. In fact, i love experimenting. I'm an experimental physicist for God's sake. Problem is, I'm not sure i can order 10 different mics online and return them, and there is no studio or good music store near me that lends mics. So i think I'm back to experimenting more with my own equipment (Yes Mike, i listened), even thought I've spent nights doing so. You've also convinced me that the stairwell may sound good to me but bad to my mics. I'll grant you that, so now I'm thinking of building a room in my basement, specifically for playing and recording ("Oh noooo, they say, go to a F*%-ing studio"), but alas, I like pursuing unsurmountable projects. This of course will be the subject of another thread (how to build a soundproof recording room 101). But getting back to reality. Question about the famous x-y pair. If i have my two 603's at roughly 90 degrees, capsules almost touching, and say, 1-2 ft in front of the 12th fret, neither of them is pointing at the 12th fret or even close. Is this right? I personally think you're dealing pretty well with all of the input, even though you still might have a bit of denial about the staircase thing.. So it's the process for you (as it is for most of us) as well as the product. If you want a world class classical guitar sound, that's one thing. If you like experimenting with recording and acoustics, that's something else. Keep the place where those two pursuits overlap fluid. Don't get too wed to any concepts. Get a good foundation in recording practices. Learn the rules, then learn to break them. The fact that you're not happy with your technical efforts so far supports the thought that the staircase may not be helping you. The 603's are NOT the be all and end all of small diaphragm mics. The best placement in the universe can not overcome that. Meanwhile...... A lot of folks get sort of "digital" or bipolar.."Well if not THIS, then I'll do THAT!" The best solutions are often in the middle. Most of the folks who are trying to disabuse you of the staircase idea have a lot of experience. Most of them (myself included) would probably abandon the idea of trying to make a good acoustic environment in your situation and make one with a really good reverb...or two. You have an aversion to going to a studio. Get over it. And I'm not talking about a typical basement studio. I'm talking about a really good studio with the right gear, the right space and the people who know how to make the best out of them. Where are you (geographically)? You don't have to spend hours there. Do one piece and hope to be able to have reached a point where you can actually understand the difference in what you get there and what you get at home. Don't worry about possibly feeling bad about your recording effort when you hear the difference. You're there to put your dick in your back pocket and learn. As per your thoughts on XY recording, 90 degrees usually works. Almost touching is not the exact thing to consider. Try getting the diaphragms to occupy the same vertical axis so the sound from the guitar arrives at both capsules at the same time. The less you pay attention to that simple rule of physics, the more cancellation due to phase (time) differences will occur. Some prefer a left/right (horizontal) positioning. As I said before, keep it fluid. Try up/down (vertical) positioning. That way the stereo spread goes from treble to bass. Mic placement in terms of how far away and where on the neck or body can not be answered here, but a good starting position isusually near where the neck meets the body. The farther away from the guitar, the more room you hear. There is no right. There are many rights....and at least as many wrongs. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
#119
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caveplayer wrote:
Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Because we've heard too many overly reverberant spaces before. Yours might be an exception, but the chances are fairly slim. Try a deader room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#120
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caveplayer wrote:
Why is everyone so skeptical about the stairwell? You haven't heard it so how do you know what the sound is like? Not all stairwells are created equal. Because we've heard too many overly reverberant spaces before. Yours might be an exception, but the chances are fairly slim. Try a deader room. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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