Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


An afterthought - did not the OP say he was using phone cable - and
combining 3 pairs into one to reduce resistance? Pound to a penny he's
crossed a pair in a splice somewhere and created a short. My advice would
be to buzz the cables through to check this out.

Chas

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.

Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives
the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.


I tend to agree, without being on the spot.

Chas

Joseph Oberlander wrote:
wrote:


Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to
a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.


Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an
experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4
strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any
crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such
contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it
together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result
with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the
total
resistance of the wire.

Maybe I am off a decimal place.

You're off more than 2 decimal places, almost 3.

OTOH, if your amp did
what it did, you have a short somewhere and it kicked in
its protection circuit.

(checks) Ah. 2-4db is for radio/TV.

No, its off so far that there is no excuse.

So it would be a small percentage for audio.

Like good amplifiers, good splices have no audible effects.
;-)

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.

But are you losing 3 db where through the weld.

A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.

Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in
pairs with
really heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that
was sort of
fun.

I was thinking that the speaker manufacturers have misssed
an opportunity - add cables, add the margin to the speaker
price, and profit. All sorts of opportunity for hype.
Obviously tack-welding the speaker cables to the drivers or
crossover terminals avoids possibility for connectors to
mess up the sound. ;-)

BTW ElectroVoice seems to have picked up on this. My new
ZX5-60PI monitors came with built in speaker cables - about
6 feet long. There's even a notch for holding them molded
into the enclosure. ;-)

"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


Almost zero ohms, but not quite. Like being in, but not
breaking....nevermind.

-John O

Lorin David Schultz wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial
short


What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

....that, or partially pregnant. ;-)

"Eiron" wrote ...
Agent 86 wrote:

some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll
notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them.
The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.

This must be one of those schoolboy mathematics exercises:
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.

I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.

Fortunetely, we don't have to rely on high-school geometry.
Wire (both solid and stranded) is rated in terms of its cross-
sectional area of copper (or whatever metal). In fact the
larger sizes of wire are named after their cross-sectional
areas For example see this chart...
http://www.aseapower.com/technotes/tn_004.htm

Stranded wire is rated by the combined cross-sectional area
of all the strands added together. The airspace between them
is not part of the calculation.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

As opposed to a "dead short."

A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the source
is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:34:52 -0400, Joe Sensor wrote
(in article ):

Ty Ford wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article ):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with
really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.

But are you losing 3 db where through the weld.

A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.

They made a bit of a bump under the rug, but once we put in the raised floor
and cut channels for the cables, everything was fine.

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:05:29 GMT, Steve Urbach wrote:


On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.

Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?

AZ Nomad wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.

Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?

Read the thread as to what the OP was doing.

"AZ Nomad" wrote ...
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?

It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?

As opposed to a "dead short."

Opposed to a 'dead short'...wouldn't that be a 'live short'? IOW, not so
shorted as to completely kill whatever it was connected to, but....

Actually, that started out as a tongue in cheek answer, but there's actually
some logic to it.

A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the
source is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.

Also, could be a short which only occurs when the voltage gets high enough
to overcome the dielectric quality of whatever is keeping the conductors
apart; be it air, paper, dirt or whatever...also could be a short which only
shows up when the insulator becomes moist, as in corrosion or paper or
dirt....

jak

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote:

What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?


"Steve Urbach" wrote:

A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.



That's a short, period. It's not "partial." You don't have to have the
entire bundle making contact to have a short.

William suggested that his interpretation of the difference between a
"partial" short and a "dead" short is resistance -- a partial short has
some, a dead short doesn't. So what's the threshold for the difference
between partial and dead? I guess it would depend on the circuit it's
in. Is any case of insufficient load resistance a "partial short?"

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

Richard Crowley wrote:

Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?

It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.

Is quite a problem when terminating stranded wire at a PCB hole,
especially if the hole is a tad too small.

"mc" wrote in message
...
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that
separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a
single wire.
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies
to be carried at
the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably
negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat
dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?

Skin effect is really really important if you have any
real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...

I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using
multiple strands.

Skin effect is also not a reason to choose multiple strands.

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.

It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.

**Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Check all possibilities, I say.

A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.

Baloney. While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels. A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.

Yep.

Howard Ferstler

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.


But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.

**That is what I and other posters have suggested.


It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.

**Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Check all possibilities, I say.

**And how is the average user going to check capacitance?


A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and
the
amp will not shut down.

Baloney.

**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me. At this point you are speaking from a position
of extreme ignorance. What I wrote is 100% on the money. I have seen
it/analysed it/measured it many times.


While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.

**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.

A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.

**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say 0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.



I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.

Yep.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:17:48 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Idiot.

On 6 Jun 2005 13:18:57 -0700, "cirejcon" wrote:

This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
he
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.

Right. A jump in 3 gauge sizes is approximately a doubling (a
halving) of the wire cross-sectional area, so four 20-gauge wires is
the same as one 14-gauge wire. However, the phone-wire that the OP is
using is probably 26 gauge, so he'd need sixteen in parallel to equal
a 14 gauge.

On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.

You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages. Your receiver will never complain about having too much
resistance to drive, only too little. The only drawback to having
excessive resistance in the cable is inefficiency (wasting power in
the wire).

"dizzy" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:17:48 GMT, SSJVCmag
wrote:

Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum

Idiot.

Thank you for your thoughtful and informative contribution to
the discussion.

Plonk.

"dizzy" wrote in message
...
On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.

You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.

Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.

In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.au dio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.

A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).

Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

...

Howard Ferstler

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.au dio.opinion, On
Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:13:18 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:


"dizzy" wrote in message
.. .
On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

...

You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.

Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.

FWIW, I've noticed that on all the newsgroups I read, not just the
audio ones.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable,

Er, no...

Suppose the amplifier is delivering 1.0 V rms at its output, and its output
impedance is 0.1 ohm. And the speaker impedance is 8 ohms. In between is a
wire...

The amplifier output impedance, the wire, and the speaker form a voltage
divider. The speaker receives

8 / (8 + 0.1) = 0.9877 V rms.

Now suppose the wire is 0.1 ohm as in your example. Then the speaker
receives

8 / (8 + 0.1 + 0.1) = 0.9756 V rms.

The difference in dB = 20 log10 (0.9877 / 0.9756) = 0.107 dB.

To cut the speaker voltage in half, the wire would have to have a resistance
of 8.1 ohms. To cut the speaker power in half (resulting in a 3 dB loss),
the wire would have to have a resistance of 5.73 ohms (because, given a
constant resistance, power is proportional to the square of voltage).

An 0.1-ohm wire would cut the damping factor in half, but that's not at all
like cutting the loudness in half. I don't know enough about speakers to
know if the difference between a damping factor of 80 and 40 would be
audible.

"Ben Bradley" wrote in message
...
In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.au dio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He
said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I
turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops
transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate"
and
"splices".

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.

A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier
with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into
an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).


Yet another one that quotes terminology that he/she doesn't
understand.

A 3dB loss is a halving of power, but it takes a 6dB drop to halve the
voltage.

Having said that the rest of it doesn't make sense either so I don't
know why I have bothered to contribute!


--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com

A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).

Just because an amplifier has a source impedance of 0.1 ohm, doesn't mean it
can drive a 0.1 ohm load.

glw82664 wrote:
The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.

Hopefully you've taken others' advice and bought some proper cable for
your speakers, but here's some useless technical data anyway:

Assuming the cable you have has four twisted pairs of #24 wi

#24 AWG wire has a nominal area of 0.20 mm^2
#14 AWG wire has a nominal area of 2.08 mm^2

You would need more than 10 #24 wires in parallel to to have the same
cross-sectional area as one #14.

Nominal DC resistance of the #24 wire is about 26 Ohm/1000 feet. Four
in parallel is about 6.5 Ohm/1000 feet.

Nominal capacitance for cables of this type is in the range of 15-25
pf/foot between wires of the same pair. Without knowing how you
grouped the wires, the parallel capacitance (and therefore impedance at
audio frequencies) can't really be calculated.

Richard Crowley wrote:

"dizzy" wrote in message
...

On 6 Jun 2005 05:28:50 -0700, "glw82664" wrote:

Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.


You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.


Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.


Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?

Joe Sensor wrote:

Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.

Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?

g

A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."

"ric" wrote in message ...
Joe Sensor wrote:

Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.

Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?

g

A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."

Furthermore, news articles don't necessarily appear to all of us in the
same order.

Richard Crowley wrote:

Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?

g

A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."

Furthermore, news articles don't necessarily appear to all of us in the
same order.

No, but they have the same NNTP posting time/date. Two minutes is
two minutes.

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.

A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.

But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.

**That is what I and other posters have suggested.

The guy just needs to use a simple wire hookup and see what
transpires. Then he can dismiss wire artifacts if the
problem persists and move on to finding another solution.

A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and
the
amp will not shut down.

The level would have to be very, very low, and under this
condition there would be no sound coming from the speaker at
all. Virtually all the electricity would be flowing through
the short. He said that at low levels the speakers were
emitting signals.

**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me.

Give me a break, you pompous windbag.

While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.

**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.

He never said anything about this. He was talking about the
sound of the offending channel.

A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.

**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say 0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.

High resistance short? What the heck is that? If it has
resistance then it is not a short. Two wires making contact
are going to generate a short.

Howard Ferstler

Ben Bradley wrote:

In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.au dio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
glw82664 wrote:

You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words a "moderate" and
"splices".

Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.

A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).

This is plausible. However......

A short of this kind (part of a frayed wire miking contact
would be the only way I could see it happening( would change
every time he jostled the wire. Did this guy have the
problem on both channels? Seems unlikely that both would
have identical skinny-wire shorts.

Howard Ferstler