[Radium]

Hi:

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??


Thanks,

Radium

[Carlos Moreno]

Radium wrote:
Hi:

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??

First of all, you're very, very *very* mistaken in the statement
that digital audio can only have one format.

But still, the intent of the question is valid; the answer is,
perhaps, in the nature of each signal. With images, you have
sequences of frames that contain spatial information (a two-
dimensional grid of "points"), and each point of this 2D grid
has multi-dimensional information (intensity and color).

Sound is a one-dimensional (scalar) value as a function of
time.

Don't you think there are far more possibilities of ideas to
encode something that is so much more complex and contains so
much more information and atrributes as it is video when
compared to audio?

Carlos
--

[Radium]

On Feb 11, 10:10 pm, Carlos Moreno
wrote:

First of all, you're very, very *very* mistaken in the statement
that digital audio can only have one format.

I was only applying that statement to uncompression digital audio.
There are many types of formats for compressed digital audio. What
formats -- other than PCM -- exist for uncompressed digital audio.

But still, the intent of the question is valid; the answer is,
perhaps, in the nature of each signal. With images, you have
sequences of frames that contain spatial information (a two-
dimensional grid of "points"), and each point of this 2D grid
has multi-dimensional information (intensity and color).

All right.

Sound is a one-dimensional (scalar) value as a function of
time.

Okay.

Don't you think there are far more possibilities of ideas to
encode something that is so much more complex and contains so
much more information and atrributes as it is video when
compared to audio?

Yes. Thanks for clearing much of my confusion.

[robert bristow-johnson]

On Feb 12, 1:33 am, "Radium" wrote:
On Feb 11, 10:10 pm, Carlos Moreno
wrote:

First of all, you're very, very *very* mistaken in the statement
that digital audio can only have one format.

I was only applying that statement to uncompression digital audio.
There are many types of formats for compressed digital audio. What
formats -- other than PCM -- exist for uncompressed digital audio.

Direct Stream Digital a.k.a. Sony SACD (Super Audio CD)

there are different PCM formats that are there to ostensibly make for
better sounding audio or speech (such as A-law or mu-law) given a
fixed word-width.

and, there are lossless compression codes such as Apple Lossless.
that is not simply "PCM".

r b-j

[Michael A. Terrell]

Carlos Moreno wrote:



Please don't feed the troll. He'll argue with you, no matter what
you say.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

[Arny Krueger]

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM]

RGB is analog, not digital, so this is not a reasonble question.

but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??

Not true at all. There are many formats for uncompressed digital audio,
PCM, PFM, PDM, and so on.

[Elan Magavi]

PCM is NOT a compressed format.
"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi:

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??


Thanks,

Radium

[Richard Crowley]

"Elan Magavi" wrote ...
PCM is NOT a compressed format.

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

"Radium" wrote ...
Hi:

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??


Thanks,

Radium

[Elan Magavi]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Elan Magavi" wrote ...
PCM is NOT a compressed format.

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

Yes.. I was agreeing with him. You're writing is excellent.



"Radium" wrote ...
Hi:

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??


Thanks,

Radium

[Carlos Moreno]

Radium wrote:

First of all, you're very, very *very* mistaken in the statement
that digital audio can only have one format.

I was only applying that statement to uncompression digital audio.
There are many types of formats for compressed digital audio. What
formats -- other than PCM -- exist for uncompressed digital audio.

Differential encoding (notice, *encoding* and not compression),
spectral encoding, wavelet-based encoding, delta encoding (not sure
what the official name is), 1-bit oversampling (though this one falls
in the PCM category, but it is substantially different in terms of
how it ultimately works).

Again, the "intent" of your question was fine, in that in practical
terms, each of these encoding schemes could be used as one of the
encoding blocks for individual features or components of a video
signal --- as a result, there would be a ratio 1 between the
number of encodings for uncompressed video vs. number of encodings
for uncompressed audio.

Carlos
--

[Carlos Moreno]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Carlos Moreno wrote:

Please don't feed the troll. He'll argue with you, no matter what
you say.

True that his original message could conceivably be the result of
a troll doing his trolling.

But he didn't sound too confrontational and certainly didn't argue
too much with my reply. Seemed like a legitimate question to me,
even if one that could have been answered by thinking about it for
a little while. Still, I found it ok.

Carlos
--

[Carlos Moreno]

Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos
--

[Gene E. Bloch]

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong. In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")

[Frank]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:35:44 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong.

That should be: I think you're wrong.

As in, "I think you are wrong"; "you are" contracts to "you're".

In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

Whatever happened to basic education in this country?

No wonder what's her name's baby is the hot news story of the month.


--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/

[Gene E. Bloch]

On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:35:44 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong.

That should be: I think you're wrong.

As in, "I think you are wrong"; "you are" contracts to "you're".

In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

Whatever happened to basic education in this country?

No wonder what's her name's baby is the hot news story of the month.


Whatever happened to the idea of humor in this country?

In case you didnt' catch on, m'y response was further satire in
response to Fran'ks satire :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")

[Ron N.]

someone wrote:
Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM] but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??

1) There is more than one format for uncompressed digital
audio (a *lot* more if you have to deal in cross-platform
and legacy format conversion tools).

2) Video information has more dimensions (both in physical
2D or 3D space, and in color space or spectrum) to record,
so there are a lot more choices of vector basis, scaling,
orientation, and bit-formatting, etc., even before compression.


IMHO. YMMV.
--
rhn A.T nicholson d.0.t C-o-M

[Frank]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:31:19 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:35:44 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong.

That should be: I think you're wrong.

As in, "I think you are wrong"; "you are" contracts to "you're".

In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

Whatever happened to basic education in this country?

No wonder what's her name's baby is the hot news story of the month.


Whatever happened to the idea of humor in this country?

In case you didnt' catch on, m'y response was further satire in
response to Fran'ks satire :-)

I know that, Gene!

--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/

[Gene E. Bloch]

On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:31:19 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:35:44 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong.

That should be: I think you're wrong.

As in, "I think you are wrong"; "you are" contracts to "you're".

In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

Whatever happened to basic education in this country?

No wonder what's her name's baby is the hot news story of the month.


Whatever happened to the idea of humor in this country?

In case you didnt' catch on, m'y response was further satire in
response to Fran'ks satire :-)

I know that, Gene!

Well, then, you are much too subtle for me :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")

[nappy]

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
...
On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:31:19 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Frank posted this:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:35:44 -0800, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Uncompressed Digital Video vs. Uncompressed Digital
Audio,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:

On 2/12/2007, Carlos Moreno posted this:
Elan Magavi wrote:

Yes, that is what the OP said. Your reading is excellent.

[...] You're writing is excellent.
^^^^^^^^

Too bad that the same can not be said about you're's... ;-)


Carlos

I think your wrong.

That should be: I think you're wrong.

As in, "I think you are wrong"; "you are" contracts to "you're".

In fact, the same can be said about hi's :-)

Or is it his'?

Oh, I *hate* apostrophes!

Whatever happened to basic education in this country?

No wonder what's her name's baby is the hot news story of the month.


Whatever happened to the idea of humor in this country?

In case you didnt' catch on, m'y response was further satire in response
to Fran'ks satire :-)

I know that, Gene!

Well, then, you are much too subtle for me :-)



I think your both beeding a dead herse here.

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 2:49 pm, "Ron N." wrote:

1) There is more than one format for uncompressed digital
audio (a *lot* more if you have to deal in cross-platform
and legacy format conversion tools).

Would you mind naming one?

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 5:44 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
RGB is analog, not digital, so this is not a reasonble question.

Bob Myers says in http://groups.google.com/group/
sci.electronics.basics/msg/bbad436d1cb6cd02?hl=en& :

"RGB simply means "red, green, and blue" video - it clearly can be
represented in either analog or digital form."

Not trying to side with either party or start a battle, sorry if it
seems that way.

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...
"Ron N." wrote:

1) There is more than one format for uncompressed digital
audio (a *lot* more if you have to deal in cross-platform
and legacy format conversion tools).

Would you mind naming one?

You can look it up yourself. You don't have to take our word for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ession_formats
No point to typing this for you here when it is already available.

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...

Why is it that uncompressed digital video can have so many format
[such and RGB as well as linear PCM]

"RGB" and "linear PCM" are not two different "format"s.

but uncompressed digital audio
can only have one format -- PCM??

Here we go again. Maybe you better define what YOU
mean by "format"? Do you mean encoding scheme?
Do you mean codec? etc. etc. etc.

Else you are likely to start another pointless thread
where people argue about what you mean. It would
also be helpful to reveal WHY you are asking so maybe
we can figure out WHAT you are asking.

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 6:54 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

You can look it up yourself. You don't have to take our word for it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ession_formats
No point to typing this for you here when it is already available.

Seems like all of them are PCM.

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 6:59 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
It would
also be helpful to reveal WHY you are asking so maybe
we can figure out WHAT you are asking.

What is the most common type of uncompressed digital video? Is it a
type of PCM format? If not, what is it and why isn't PCM video -- like
the PCM audio in CDs -- used?

Basically, I am looking for the "video equivalent" of CD audio.

[Mr.T]

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
Seems like all of them are PCM.

If you actually knew what PCM was the acronym for, you might realise that
Arny already mentioned other schemes.
Just because they are not as common, doesn't mean alternate schemes do not
exist.

MrT.

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote:

You can look it up yourself. You don't have to take our word for
it.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ession_formats
No point to typing this for you here when it is already available.

Seems like all of them are PCM.

That is because "PCM" is an archaic name for "digital".
(PWM/PDM were similar archaic terms/schemes.)
It was coined at Bell Labs when digital audio was first
implemeted as a lab experiment. It has no practical
meaning today and causes more confusion than just
using the proper modern term.

[Mr.T]

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
Basically, I am looking for the "video equivalent" of CD audio.

It would be nice if there was one single video format as common as CD audio
I guess. The nearest equivalent would obviously be standard DVD, MPEG-II,
but unfortunately you still have the country dependant format variations for
frame size and frame rate etc.

However even PCM audio you first asked about, comes in a lot more formats
than 16/44.1 CD audio you now mention, so they are not that dissimilar after
all.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
That is because "PCM" is an archaic name for "digital".
(PWM/PDM were similar archaic terms/schemes.)

Not so. They are all more specific descriptions of the digital coding used.
"Digital" is simply a more generic term.
It's the same as saying FM and AM are both analog "radio broadcast" methods.
Some people need to understand the difference, and some don't care.

MrT.

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 7:28 pm, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
It would be nice if there was one single video format as common as CD audio
I guess. The nearest equivalent would obviously be standard DVD, MPEG-II,
but unfortunately you still have the country dependant format variations for
frame size and frame rate etc.

Um, MPEG is compressed. I was looking for uncompressed digital video.

However even PCM audio you first asked about, comes in a lot more formats
than 16/44.1 CD audio you now mention, so they are not that dissimilar after
all.

Yeah, these days . There's CDR, CD-RW, CR+RW. I was taking about the
common audio CDs used in the 80s. Any *uncompressed* digital video
equivalent of that good ole' 80s CD audio?

[Mr.T]

"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 12, 7:28 pm, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
It would be nice if there was one single video format as common as CD
audio
I guess. The nearest equivalent would obviously be standard DVD,
MPEG-II,
but unfortunately you still have the country dependant format variations
for
frame size and frame rate etc.

Um, MPEG is compressed. I was looking for uncompressed digital video.

The nearest would probably be the mini DV camera format then. They're pretty
common.

MrT.

[robert bristow-johnson]

On Feb 12, 9:20 pm, "Radium" wrote:
On Feb 12, 2:49 pm, "Ron N." wrote:

1) There is more than one format for uncompressed digital
audio (a *lot* more if you have to deal in cross-platform
and legacy format conversion tools).

Would you mind naming one?

how about the one named "Radium is just a troll jerking our chain"
a.k.a. Sony SACD. it's not PCM. sometimes it's called "PDM".

you must really think other people are stupid when it is you that is.

r b-j

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote:
It would
also be helpful to reveal WHY you are asking so maybe
we can figure out WHAT you are asking.

What is the most common type of uncompressed digital video?

What does "type" mean in your world?
By "common" do you mean historic or current?

Is it a type of PCM format?

It is likely not defined that way because PCM is usually
used to refer to audio, not video.

If not, what is it and why isn't PCM video -- like
the PCM audio in CDs -- used?

What does "PCM video" mean in your world? Does it
just mean "digital video"?

Basically, I am looking for the "video equivalent" of CD audio.

D1 & HDCAM SR were uncompressed component digital video formats.
D2 and D3 were uncompressed composite digital video formats.
All were tape formats, and none was terribly popular nor
did they last very long.

There are some high-end schemes for recording uncompressed
video used in digital cinematography. I believe they are all
hard drive-based, not tape or optical.

The SDI digital video interconnection scheme used in
broadcast facilities has at least one mode that will
transmit uncompresed (4:4:4) video.

Putting true 4:4:4 uncompressed video on a 4.7 GB DVD
would give you about 4-5 minutes of playing time. (Assuming
you could spin the disc fast enough to read the data in real-
time) Perhaps that is why it never caught on. :-)

[robert bristow-johnson]

On Feb 12, 10:18 pm, "Radioactive Boy" wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:59 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

It would
also be helpful to reveal WHY you are asking so maybe
we can figure out WHAT you are asking.

What is the most common type of uncompressed digital video? Is it a
type of PCM format? If not, what is it and why isn't PCM video -- like
the PCM audio in CDs -- used?

the difference between those different video compression formats is
roughly analogous to the difference in the various audio compression
formats that you claim are "all PCM". so i guess all video is PCM,
from your definition.

Basically, I am looking for the "video equivalent" of CD audio.

like VHS? or, maybe if you look hard, Beta-max?

r b-j

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...
"Mr.T" wrote:
It would be nice if there was one single video format as common as CD
audio
I guess. The nearest equivalent would obviously be standard DVD, MPEG-II,
but unfortunately you still have the country dependant format variations
for
frame size and frame rate etc.

Um, MPEG is compressed. I was looking for uncompressed digital video.

However even PCM audio you first asked about, comes in a lot more formats
than 16/44.1 CD audio you now mention, so they are not that dissimilar
after
all.

Yeah, these days . There's CDR, CD-RW, CR+RW.

CDR, CD-RW, CR+RW are writing formats. They have nothing
to do with audio except that one of their many uses is to
make either data discs with audio files on them, or to burn
"Red Book" audio CDs.

I was taking about the common audio CDs used in the 80s.

The "common audio CDs" used today are identical to the ones
from the "80s". Do you think there is some difference?

Any *uncompressed* digital video equivalent of that good
ole' 80s CD audio?

Certainly not in the consumer arena and very rare in the
professional one.

[Richard Crowley]

"Mr.T" wrote ...
"Radium" wrote...
Um, MPEG is compressed. I was looking for
uncompressed digital video.

The nearest would probably be the mini DV camera
format then. They're pretty common.

DV (and mini-DV and DVCAM and DVCpro25)
are compressed 5:1
DVCpro50 is compressed 2.5:1

[Richard Crowley]

"Mr.T" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
That is because "PCM" is an archaic name for "digital".
(PWM/PDM were similar archaic terms/schemes.)

Not so. They are all more specific descriptions of the digital coding
used.
"Digital" is simply a more generic term.
It's the same as saying FM and AM are both analog "radio broadcast"
methods.
Some people need to understand the difference, and some don't care.

Thanks for making my point.

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 7:52 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Radium" wrote ...
Any *uncompressed* digital video equivalent of that good
ole' 80s CD audio?

Certainly not in the consumer arena and very rare in the
professional one.

How do these video discs looks like? Are they bigger than CDs? Do they
use uncompressed digital video? If so, where could I possibly find
these treasures?

[Radium]

On Feb 12, 7:46 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:

Putting true 4:4:4 uncompressed video on a 4.7 GB DVD
would give you about 4-5 minutes of playing time. (Assuming
you could spin the disc fast enough to read the data in real-
time)

Hm. Maybe using a bigger disc [about the size of 33-speed phonos] and
400 nm recording/playback lasers [instead of the dirty old red lasers]
would solve the above problems.

[Richard Crowley]

"Radium" wrote ...
On Feb 12, 7:52 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Radium" wrote ...
Any *uncompressed* digital video equivalent of that good
ole' 80s CD audio?

Certainly not in the consumer arena and very rare in the
professional one.

How do these video discs looks like? Are they bigger than CDs? Do they
use uncompressed digital video? If so, where could I possibly find
these treasures?

Sony XDCAM HD. Don't try to read the price while standing.