Im replacing my front/rear door speakers and saw something about running new
speaker wiring instead of using the factory wiring to avoid using the
factory amp. Being a total knob, is the amp separate from the radio is a
standard factory radio? If it helps I have a 05 Ford Escape non mach
system.

Thanks
John

"JohnV" wrote in message
om...
Im replacing my front/rear door speakers and saw something about running new
speaker wiring instead of using the factory wiring to avoid using the
factory amp. Being a total knob, is the amp separate from the radio is a
standard factory radio?

Rarely, but separate amps are becoming less rare nowadays in factory stereos.
Replacing the wiring on your front speakers is less important than to your rear
speakers because those wires are so much shorter, and there is less chance of
interference.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"JohnV" wrote in message
om...
Im replacing my front/rear door speakers and saw something about running
new
speaker wiring instead of using the factory wiring to avoid using the
factory amp. Being a total knob, is the amp separate from the radio is a
standard factory radio?

Rarely, but separate amps are becoming less rare nowadays in factory
stereos.
Replacing the wiring on your front speakers is less important than to your
rear
speakers because those wires are so much shorter, and there is less chance
of
interference.



Interference with what? You mean electro-magnetic interference with radio
reception? with sound reproduction? I'd say the chance of speaker wires
interfering with anything from an electrical/magnetic standpoint is
insignificant.

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

Rarely, but separate amps are becoming less rare nowadays in factory
stereos.
Replacing the wiring on your front speakers is less important than to your
rear
speakers because those wires are so much shorter, and there is less chance
of
interference.


Interference with what? You mean electro-magnetic interference with radio
reception? with sound reproduction? I'd say the chance of speaker wires
interfering with anything from an electrical/magnetic standpoint is
insignificant.

No, I didn't mean the speaker wires would interfere with anything, but sometimes
other things might interfere with the speaker signal. Sometimes there are
ground loop problems etc. that can be picked up. But this is usually more of a
problem with lower level pre-amp-out wires going to a remote amplifier than it
is with the higher level signal on the speaker wires. Still, I wouldn't want a
long run of skinny wire going to my rear speakers. The thin coating could rub
off at a tight spot, exposing the wire to ground. Also, it's not very
efficient.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

Rarely, but separate amps are becoming less rare nowadays in factory
stereos.
Replacing the wiring on your front speakers is less important than to
your
rear
speakers because those wires are so much shorter, and there is less
chance
of
interference.


Interference with what? You mean electro-magnetic interference with
radio
reception? with sound reproduction? I'd say the chance of speaker wires
interfering with anything from an electrical/magnetic standpoint is
insignificant.

No, I didn't mean the speaker wires would interfere with anything, but
sometimes
other things might interfere with the speaker signal. Sometimes there are
ground loop problems etc. that can be picked up. But this is usually more
of a
problem with lower level pre-amp-out wires going to a remote amplifier
than it
is with the higher level signal on the speaker wires. Still, I wouldn't
want a
long run of skinny wire going to my rear speakers. The thin coating could
rub
off at a tight spot, exposing the wire to ground. Also, it's not very
efficient.



Uh.. Ground loop through speaker wires is non-existant unless you have the
positive or negative side of the speaker grounded to the chassis or the
like. Speaker wires won't "pick up" ground loop noise. Two return paths
have to exist to even have a chance to have ground loop interference. The
ground loop intereference you do hear is because of the stereo or the amp,
not the speaker or speaker wire.

In regards to skinny wire, what do you think the factory wires are? If you
guessed "skinny wire" then you are right! If the wires are exposed to a
point where they can pinch or rub, it's a poor installation. As to being
efficient, from a materials standpoint, if you're not going to put any more
power through it, it's not going to do you any good.

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

Uh.. Ground loop through speaker wires is non-existant unless you have the
positive or negative side of the speaker grounded to the chassis or the
like. Speaker wires won't "pick up" ground loop noise. Two return paths
have to exist to even have a chance to have ground loop interference. The
ground loop intereference you do hear is because of the stereo or the amp,
not the speaker or speaker wire.

There might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't required
for a problem to exist.

In regards to skinny wire, what do you think the factory wires are? If you
guessed "skinny wire" then you are right!

I didn't "guess" that, I stated that.

As to being
efficient, from a materials standpoint, if you're not going to put any more
power through it, it's not going to do you any good.

And if you do put more power through it (which normally happens when you upgrade
you stereo), it might.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

Uh.. Ground loop through speaker wires is non-existant unless you have
the
positive or negative side of the speaker grounded to the chassis or the
like. Speaker wires won't "pick up" ground loop noise. Two return paths
have to exist to even have a chance to have ground loop interference.
The
ground loop intereference you do hear is because of the stereo or the
amp,
not the speaker or speaker wire.

There might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't
required
for a problem to exist.

I was going to leave this alone but now my curiosity is piqued. Please.
Tell me what other reason ground loops might exist without having a stereo
or amp. And we're in RAC so please, have your reason deal with the
automotive world.

As to being
efficient, from a materials standpoint, if you're not going to put any
more
power through it, it's not going to do you any good.

And if you do put more power through it (which normally happens when you
upgrade
you stereo), it might.

And what did the OP state? He said he was going to replace his speakers.
He said nothing of replacing the stereo.

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

Uh.. Ground loop through speaker wires is non-existant unless you have
the
positive or negative side of the speaker grounded to the chassis or the
like. Speaker wires won't "pick up" ground loop noise. Two return paths
have to exist to even have a chance to have ground loop interference.
The
ground loop intereference you do hear is because of the stereo or the
amp,
not the speaker or speaker wire.

There might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't
required
for a problem to exist.

I was going to leave this alone but now my curiosity is piqued. Please.
Tell me what other reason ground loops might exist without having a stereo
or amp. And we're in RAC so please, have your reason deal with the
automotive world.

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible without a
stereo in the car.

As to being
efficient, from a materials standpoint, if you're not going to put any
more
power through it, it's not going to do you any good.

And if you do put more power through it (which normally happens when you
upgrade
you stereo), it might.

And what did the OP state? He said he was going to replace his speakers.
He said nothing of replacing the stereo.

So somehow you magically know that he won't?

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

Uh.. Ground loop through speaker wires is non-existant unless you have
the
positive or negative side of the speaker grounded to the chassis or
the
like. Speaker wires won't "pick up" ground loop noise. Two return
paths
have to exist to even have a chance to have ground loop interference.
The
ground loop intereference you do hear is because of the stereo or the
amp,
not the speaker or speaker wire.

There might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't
required
for a problem to exist.

I was going to leave this alone but now my curiosity is piqued. Please.
Tell me what other reason ground loops might exist without having a
stereo
or amp. And we're in RAC so please, have your reason deal with the
automotive world.

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your turn.

As to being
efficient, from a materials standpoint, if you're not going to put any
more
power through it, it's not going to do you any good.

And if you do put more power through it (which normally happens when
you
upgrade
you stereo), it might.

And what did the OP state? He said he was going to replace his speakers.
He said nothing of replacing the stereo.

So somehow you magically know that he won't?



That wasn't part of his question. Some how you magically know he will?

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your turn.

Yes it is. Tag.

And what did the OP state? He said he was going to replace his
speakers.
He said nothing of replacing the stereo.

So somehow you magically know that he won't?

That wasn't part of his question. Some how you magically know he will?

What gave you the impression I did? I said "if". What's your problem with
that exactly, other than just trolling around?

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your
turn.

Yes it is. Tag.

Bruce,

Don't bother with this ignorant asshat. He does not like to keep it on
topic. While you are clearly talking car audio (he seems to have a lack of
reading comprehension skills to begin with, after all this newsgroup is
dedicated to car audio) he is talking anything in the car to attempt to get
you on a technicality. Of course you cannot have a ground loop in the audio
system if there is no audio in the car, which is what you are obviously
talking about.

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

Don't bother with this ignorant asshat. He does not like to keep it on
topic. While you are clearly talking car audio (he seems to have a lack of
reading comprehension skills to begin with, after all this newsgroup is
dedicated to car audio) he is talking anything in the car to attempt to
get
you on a technicality. Of course you cannot have a ground loop in the
audio
system if there is no audio in the car, which is what you are obviously
talking about.

Listen assmuncher, the point is ground loops don't have to be caused by the
stereo itself for one to exist. i.e. there can be a ground loop in the car,
with a stereo in the car, without the stereo causing the ground loop. Use
your head for something other than a paperweight.

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Les" wrote in message
...

Don't bother with this ignorant asshat. He does not like to keep it on
topic. While you are clearly talking car audio (he seems to have a lack
of
reading comprehension skills to begin with, after all this newsgroup is
dedicated to car audio) he is talking anything in the car to attempt to
get
you on a technicality. Of course you cannot have a ground loop in the
audio
system if there is no audio in the car, which is what you are obviously
talking about.

Listen assmuncher, the point is ground loops don't have to be caused by
the
stereo itself for one to exist. i.e. there can be a ground loop in the
car,
with a stereo in the car, without the stereo causing the ground loop. Use
your head for something other than a paperweight.



Do you know what a ground loop is? In order for the audio system (pay
attention, we are talking the audio system) to have a ground loop then you
have to have potential between 2 points in the AUDIO system. If that doesn't
exist then you do not have a ground loop in the audio system. There could be
other things, however unlikely, that are radiating or otherwise causing
noise in the audio system but unless the above criteria is met it is not a
ground loop.

You have no ability to even follow your own thoughts do you? You said "There
might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't required
for a problem to exist."

The discussion is CLEARLY related to the audio system, so you would have to
have a stereo or amp for the problem to exist in this case. You are merely
attempting take the thread to a non-audio related issue that has no bearing
or relevance to the original question or to Bruce's responses.

So why don't you answer the question that Bruce posed to you know? Let me
repeat it for you. "Tell me what other reason ground loops might exist
without having a stereo or amp. And we're in RAC so please, have your
reason deal with the automotive world"

So how can you're audio system have a ground loop without having a ground
loop?

(Pay attention, the thread is factory amp and the newsgroup is rec.AUDIO.car
so try and make it relevant to those items)

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

You have no ability to even follow your own thoughts do you? You said
"There
might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't required
for a problem to exist."

It doesn't have to be the cause of the problem, buttmuncher. Try to think
it through.

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your turn.

Yes it is. Tag.

You said "first you'd like to hear me say it." I said it. Now it's your
turn to explain. Unless you don't have an answer.

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Les" wrote in message
...

You have no ability to even follow your own thoughts do you? You said
"There
might be any number of reasons it exists - a stereo or amp isn't
required
for a problem to exist."

It doesn't have to be the cause of the problem, buttmuncher. Try to think
it through.

Quite convienent snipping, although I would have expected it since I busted
your sorry butt as nothing more than a BS artist.
We are talking about ground loops in the audio system. In order for a ground
loop to exist in the audio system there has be be potential between 2 points
of the audio system. So whether or not the equipment itself is the cause or
if it is a because of a loose bolt or poor ground location does not matter
because it will be part of the audio system. Now you explain how a ground
loop in something other than the audio system will cause a ground loop in
the audio system. You are very good at telling people to think it through
and yet you have no ability to provide a reasonable explanation, most likely
because you do not have one and realized you just dug a hole for yourself.

Why don't you try and answer some questions? Are you afraid that you don't
know the answers?

Les

"Les" wrote in message ...

Quite convienent snipping, although I would have expected it since I busted
your sorry butt as nothing more than a BS artist.
We are talking about ground loops in the audio system.

No, you are. I said they can exist elsewhere.

Why don't you try and answer some questions? Are you afraid that you don't
know the answers?

What are you afraid of exactly? That you'll be outed as a professional in the
sound recording field who doesn't actually listen to music? Is that why you're
being so defensive?

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your turn.

Yes it is. Tag.

You said "first you'd like to hear me say it." I said it. Now it's your
turn to explain. Unless you don't have an answer.

A stereo doesn't need to exist to have a ground loop. Isn't the conclusion
obvious? If there is a stereo in the car, a ground loop can exist in the car,
even when the stereo doesn't have a ground loop problem.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
. com...

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

No, first I'd like to hear you state that a ground loop isn't
possible
without a
stereo in the car.

Okay, ground loop isn't possible without a stereo in the car. Your
turn.

Yes it is. Tag.

You said "first you'd like to hear me say it." I said it. Now it's your
turn to explain. Unless you don't have an answer.

A stereo doesn't need to exist to have a ground loop. Isn't the
conclusion
obvious? If there is a stereo in the car, a ground loop can exist in the
car,
even when the stereo doesn't have a ground loop problem.



What does that have to do with your original post:

"No, I didn't mean the speaker wires would interfere with anything, but
sometimes
other things might interfere with the speaker signal. Sometimes there are
ground loop problems etc. that can be picked up. "

Ground loop can not be picked up by speaker wires. That's the topic at
hand. Sure, there could be a ground loop on an inproperly grounded engine
block. So what? What does that have to do with the original poster's
concern with running new wires to his new speakers? Ground loop needs two
different pieces of equipment grounded for the ground loop to even start to
exist. Without two pieces of equipment, there is no ground loop.

Even if the speakers wires could pick up ground loop, they'd have to be
attached to something, namely a stereo or an amp.

I think you're confusing ground loop with EMI.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...

Quite convienent snipping, although I would have expected it since I
busted
your sorry butt as nothing more than a BS artist.
We are talking about ground loops in the audio system.

No, you are. I said they can exist elsewhere.

This is rec.AUDIO.car and the original discussion that Bruce was replying
too was about a factory amplifier. Therefore the whole discussion is about
the audio system. You are the idiot who decided to attempt to take it
off-topic and not let anybody know that you are not referring to the audio
system. But all you know how to do is setup strawmen and red herrings in
every post. Even the newbies could see through your BS.


Why don't you try and answer some questions? Are you afraid that you
don't
know the answers?

What are you afraid of exactly? That you'll be outed as a professional in
the
sound recording field who doesn't actually listen to music? Is that why
you're
being so defensive?

Well, I'm not in the sound recording field, I am in the live audio field. I
set up the rigs, tune them, and then operate them. I am closely tied in with
the recording industry because our fields are related (they are both audio)
and I frequently collaborate with studio engineers.
I have no fear of being outed, my reputation in the field gives me more than
enough credibility and I would have zero problems in letting anyone I work
with read the entire threads.

Now, why don't you answer some questions.

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

Quite convienent snipping, although I would have expected it since I
busted
your sorry butt as nothing more than a BS artist.
We are talking about ground loops in the audio system.

No, you are. I said they can exist elsewhere.

This is rec.AUDIO.car and the original discussion that Bruce was replying
too was about a factory amplifier. Therefore the whole discussion is about
the audio system. You are the idiot who decided to attempt to take it
off-topic and not let anybody know that you are not referring to the audio
system.

You are a ****ing idiot if you can't follow this conversation.

jeffc wrote:

You are a ****ing idiot if you can't follow this conversation.

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...


jeffc wrote:

You are a ****ing idiot if you can't follow this conversation.

Hey Eddie, I know these guys kind of like it when you lick their shoes all
day, but even they are getting a little embarrassed at your clingy 3rd grade
sidekick schtick.

"Les" wrote in message
...

Well, I'm not in the sound recording field, I am in the live audio field.
I
set up the rigs, tune them, and then operate them. I am closely tied in
with
the recording industry because our fields are related (they are both
audio)
and I frequently collaborate with studio engineers.

I see. So you're part of the team that measures equipment, proves each
element is sonically perfect (relative to human auditory limits) on its own,
then proceeds to piece together a chain of electronic equipment and steps in
the process, the cumulative effect of which is a cacophonous cluster**** of
sound that any 10 year old can immediately distinguish as being completely
unrepresentative of the original sound. In other words, what about 2/3 of
my CD collection sounds like. Gotcha. Well at least I'm no longer
surprised that you can't figure out why live music is a good reference for
reproduced music.

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Les" wrote in message
...

Quite convienent snipping, although I would have expected it since I
busted
your sorry butt as nothing more than a BS artist.
We are talking about ground loops in the audio system.

No, you are. I said they can exist elsewhere.

This is rec.AUDIO.car and the original discussion that Bruce was
replying
too was about a factory amplifier. Therefore the whole discussion is
about
the audio system. You are the idiot who decided to attempt to take it
off-topic and not let anybody know that you are not referring to the
audio
system.

You are a ****ing idiot if you can't follow this conversation.



I can follow the conversation quite well. You are the moron that attempted
to take the thread to a non-audio and non-related issue.

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
. com...

"Les" wrote in message
...

Well, I'm not in the sound recording field, I am in the live audio
field.
I
set up the rigs, tune them, and then operate them. I am closely tied in
with
the recording industry because our fields are related (they are both
audio)
and I frequently collaborate with studio engineers.

I see. So you're part of the team that measures equipment, proves each
element is sonically perfect (relative to human auditory limits) on its
own,
then proceeds to piece together a chain of electronic equipment and steps
in
the process, the cumulative effect of which is a cacophonous cluster****
of
sound that any 10 year old can immediately distinguish as being completely
unrepresentative of the original sound.

And again, you prove that you know nothing about the industry, it's
practices, or terminology.

You are the one that uses live sound, what you hear at a concert, as a
reference to what we should hear. I am one of the people that creates it.

In other words, what about 2/3 of
my CD collection sounds like.

Well, if you are so good then open a studio. Recording engineers with talent
are always in demand. But I have a feeling you wouldn't even know how to get
the gear to record let alone achieve decent sound.


Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

I can follow the conversation quite well. You are the moron that attempted
to take the thread to a non-audio and non-related issue.

Ground loops are not an audio related issue? Jesus Les, I don't even think
Eddie is stupid enough to fall for that one.

"Les" wrote in message
...

You are the one that uses live sound, what you hear at a concert, as a
reference to what we should hear. I am one of the people that creates it.

Ah. Now you're a musician too. Quite a guy.

Well, if you are so good then open a studio. Recording engineers with
talent
are always in demand.

Not really.

But I have a feeling you wouldn't even know how to get
the gear to record let alone achieve decent sound.

It would be easy. Put a couple microphones out there and a tape deck. That
would improve on about 80% of overprocessed, multi-miked dreck that is
called recorded music today.

"Les" wrote in message
...
I think you're confusing them because you said, "Sometimes there are
ground
loop problems, etc. that could be picked up". You don't pick up
ground
loop.

Well that's being a little pedantic isn't it? I didn't say you can
"pick
up
ground loop." You just worded it that way to make it sound worse.

So he used your own tactic against you. But you have a problem when people
do it to you yet do not see anything wrong with that when you do it to
other
people.

But nontheless that is a direct quote from you. Bruce didn't change it,
that
is exactly what you wrote.

Really? I wrote "pick up ground loop"? That's interesting. Got a link for
that? While you're at it, try and find one that shows that ground loops
outside of the audio gear itself can't cause any problems with the signal.
Have fun.

"jeffc" wrote in message
m...

"Les" wrote in message
...

I can follow the conversation quite well. You are the moron that
attempted
to take the thread to a non-audio and non-related issue.

Ground loops are not an audio related issue? Jesus Les, I don't even
think
Eddie is stupid enough to fall for that one.



Well then explain how a ground loop that is not in the audio system is going
to effect the audio system. You said that you do not have to have a stereo
or amp for a ground loop to exist so explain it!
You took the stereo, ie the audio, out of the equation when you said "a
stereo or amp isn't required for a problem to exist." Explain that.

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
m...

"Les" wrote in message
...

You are the one that uses live sound, what you hear at a concert, as a
reference to what we should hear. I am one of the people that creates it.

Ah. Now you're a musician too. Quite a guy.

Well I do play the guitar, bass guitar, and drums. But I do help to create
the sound you hear at a concert. But you wouldn't have a clue.


Well, if you are so good then open a studio. Recording engineers with
talent
are always in demand.

Not really.

And how do you know? Since you are not in the industry and do not make your
living in it. They are. The good ones are sought after, and have no shortage
of work.


But I have a feeling you wouldn't even know how to get
the gear to record let alone achieve decent sound.

It would be easy.

This coming from someone who wouldn't even know how to unmute the audio!

Put a couple microphones out there and a tape deck. That
would improve on about 80% of overprocessed, multi-miked dreck that is
called recorded music today.

Yeah and then it would sound like a garage recording that people used to
make in the 70's.

Yet again you show your complete ignorance.

But like I said if you could do so much better then get out there and do it.
Talk is cheap. A couple of microphones and a tape deck wouldn't be that
expensive and I bet the record executives would be banging down your door to
get your high fidelity recordings. You've got 80% of the market to correct,
that should give you plenty of projects to work on.

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

Well then explain how a ground loop that is not in the audio system is
going
to effect the audio system. You said that you do not have to have a stereo
or amp for a ground loop to exist so explain it!

It's already been explained moron. If you can't keep up, do some reading on
the outside. The ground loop does not have to exist in the stereo sysem
itself.

"Les" wrote in message
...
But like I said if you could do so much better then get out there and do
it.
Talk is cheap. A couple of microphones and a tape deck wouldn't be that
expensive and I bet the record executives would be banging down your door
to
get your high fidelity recordings.

At first I thought you were reasonably smart, but just argumentative. Now I
realize you're just plain dense, and argumentative.

"Les" wrote in message
...

But nontheless that is a direct quote from you. Bruce didn't change
it,
that
is exactly what you wrote.

Really? I wrote "pick up ground loop"? That's interesting. Got a link
for
that?

Really. You said "Sometimes there are ground loop problems, etc. that
could
be picked up"

In other words I didn't say "pick up ground loop". Gotcha.

I never said it couldn't. But it wouldn't be a ground loop in the audio
system that is the problem, but rather EMI. Which in the real world is
virtually impossible to be injected into the speaker lines in car audio
like
you suggested. It could happen

Which is exactly what I said.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...

Well then explain how a ground loop that is not in the audio system is
going
to effect the audio system. You said that you do not have to have a
stereo
or amp for a ground loop to exist so explain it!

It's already been explained moron. If you can't keep up, do some reading
on
the outside. The ground loop does not have to exist in the stereo sysem
itself.


You have never explained it moron. Tell us how you can have a ground loop in
the audio system without a stereo or amp.

The ground loop has to exist in the audio system in order for there to be a
ground loop in the audio system. Agreed? You cannot pick up a ground loop,
like you say.

Now, if there is a ground loop between 2 other pieces of non-audio gear that
could potentially effect the audio system. But it would be EMI not a ground
loop that would affect the audio system. Even at that it is highly unlikely
and very rare. Like Bruce pointed out to you, EMI and a ground loop are not
synonomous terms.

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...
But like I said if you could do so much better then get out there and do
it.
Talk is cheap. A couple of microphones and a tape deck wouldn't be that
expensive and I bet the record executives would be banging down your
door
to
get your high fidelity recordings.

At first I thought you were reasonably smart, but just argumentative. Now
I
realize you're just plain dense, and argumentative.


You have no reading comprehension skills. I was being sarcastic. But again I
say to you, talk is cheap. If you can do it better then by all means do it
better. You are the one that thinks that 80% of the recordings out there are
not good and a couple of microphones and a tape recorder would do better, so
go out and do it.

Les

Les

"Les" wrote in message
...

Now, if there is a ground loop between 2 other pieces of non-audio gear
that
could potentially effect the audio system. But it would be EMI not a
ground
loop that would affect the audio system. Even at that it is highly
unlikely
and very rare. Like Bruce pointed out to you, EMI and a ground loop are
not
synonomous terms.

Since you can't follow this thread in your newsreader, the answer again....
(try to read this time)
I was talking about EMI, but that doesn't mean
I am confusing them. Are you saying that ground loops can not be a cause
EMI?
You'll have to show me some sources that either contradict or clarify what
I'm
reading below. Here is a reference that says "The controls in our industry
have
to contend with several types of EMI:
- line frequency pickup or AC hum
- voltage transients
- ground loops"

http://www.yorkland.net/resources/emi.php

Now that is in the context of an AC system. Here is another source, which
says
ground loop is a source of EMI.
"Electro Magnetic Interference. This refers to current induced into the
signal
path as a result of an external magnetic field. In audio systems, this is
usually manifested as a 60Hz or 120Hz hum or buzz (50Hz or 100Hz in 50Hz
systems). The source of this noise can be from a ground loop or from the
signal
wire coming too close to a strong magnetic field such as a transformer or
high-current linecord."
http://www.prosound.com/mix_gloss1.htm

"Les" wrote in message
...

You have no reading comprehension skills. I was being sarcastic. But again
I
say to you, talk is cheap. If you can do it better then by all means do it
better. You are the one that thinks that 80% of the recordings out there
are
not good and a couple of microphones and a tape recorder would do better,
so
go out and do it.

Ah, you're one of those guys. No, I have no desire to do it, even though
anyone can come up with better results than 80% of the crap that gets
recorded today. Like I said, they made better sound in the 60s by just
buying a couple good microphones and a good tape deck and placing them in
front of the musicians. You can do better than that - and no I don't know
how to do better than that myself - but about 20% of the recording engineers
do. The other 80% - yeah I could beat. Why don't I? Because I don't want
to. I like my job, that's why.

"Les" wrote in message
...

I don't see how it gets any more plain than that. You said that there
could
be ground loop problems that could be picked up.

That's correct. Ground loop is a problem. It gets picked up in the form
of EMI.

No it is not exactly what you said. That is exactly what I said. You never
mentioned EMI until Bruce pointed it out to you.

I said interference. You do know what the I in EMI stands for, don't you?
You really haven't been able to follow this thread at all without me
tutoring you every step of the way. You do seem to be picking it up slowly
though.

I said that it is virtually impossible, you said that ''sometimes other
things might interfere with the speaker signal." Virtually impossible and
"sometimes" are not synonomous and do not have the same meaning.

Yet they're completely consistent. Funny.

"Bruce Chang" wrote in message
om...

I think you're confusing them because you said, "Sometimes there are
ground
loop problems, etc. that could be picked up". You don't pick up ground
loop.

Well that's being a little pedantic isn't it? I didn't say you can
"pick
up
ground loop." You just worded it that way to make it sound worse. You
"pick up a ground loop problem" meaning a ground loop problem manifests
itself as EMI. Yeah, I could have worded it better, but was it really
that
cryptic, or are you just trying to jump on the bandwagon and pick a
fight
just because you smelled blood in the water?



Like Les has said, I didn't word it to make it sound worse, that's how you
typed it and that's why I put it in quotes.

No, I didn't say "pick up ground loop". You said that.