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  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
David Farber
 
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Default Music Man HD-130.

I received this Music Man HD-130 amplifier with the complaint that it hums.
The four output tubes are 5881WXT. The owner replaced the two main filter
caps himself and said it didn't correct the problem. When I opened the unit
and found one of the yellow wires hanging loose from one of the filter caps,
I soldered it to the other yellow wire which was connected to the filter
cap.

See photos he

http://www.pbase.com/image/57610175.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610176.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610312.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610174.jpg

Now the amp is drawing too much current at idle and I definitely need to
check the wiring to the filter caps. I don't service many tube amps like
this. Does anyone have a schematic of this set? I tried the ernieball.com
website but it's not listed there.

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA


  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
David Farber
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:30:35 -0800, "David Farber"
wrote:

I received this Music Man HD-130 amplifier with the complaint that it

hums.

Ooops. I hadn't looked at the pictures, and my initial answer is
incomplete...

The pix at http://ck37.image.pbase.com/image/57610176.jpg is very

revealing.

It shows two stickers:
"TRANSITION MDL 2100-130
SET-UP 6L6"
and
"SEE: GB2 150 w
OUTPUT
+ BIAS SUPPLY"

So we can presume that this amp is a mongrel, with a 2100-130 front-end

and
a GB2-150 ouput stage and bias supply.

The GB2 used 6L6GC's, so 5881WXT's are fine replacements.

Use the 2100-130 schematics (link already supplied) for the front-end,
and the GB2-150 schematics (see below) for the output stage as well as the
bias supply

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/tom/files/gb2.gif

Hope this will help.



Hi François,

Thanks for those very helpful links. I was able to measure 52 ohms (out of
circuit) from the red to the yellow wire of the output transformer. That
would not seem to be agreeable with the schematic which puts the red on the
primary side and the yellow on the secondary. Looks like the output
transformer is bad.

Thanks for your reply.

--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA


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Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"David Farber"


Thanks for those very helpful links. I was able to measure 52 ohms (out of
circuit) from the red to the yellow wire of the output transformer. That
would not seem to be agreeable with the schematic which puts the red on
the
primary side and the yellow on the secondary. Looks like the output
transformer is bad.



** No way is that reading correct.

You must have confused yellow and brown leads.

A short from primary to secondary on the OT would no allow the amp to
operate at all - the supply fuse would blow.



......... Phil





  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"David Farber"

Hi Phil,

I plugged the main power cord into a current limiting AC outlet (200 watt
light bulb in series) via a variac. Just turning up the AC voltage a
little
bit caused the current to take off. I think what happened was when the
originally loose yellow wire to the filter cap was not soldered on
properly,
it allowed the amp to turn on because there was no high voltage output.
Once
I soldered it on, it restored the high voltage and then I was able to
locate
the original fault.



** So your ".. too much current at idle" = I am not able to bring the
variac up more than a tad without all hell breaking loose ?

Interesting use of the term "idle" there.




....... Phil




  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
David Farber
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"David Farber"

Hi Phil,

I plugged the main power cord into a current limiting AC outlet (200

watt
light bulb in series) via a variac. Just turning up the AC voltage a
little
bit caused the current to take off. I think what happened was when the
originally loose yellow wire to the filter cap was not soldered on
properly,
it allowed the amp to turn on because there was no high voltage output.
Once
I soldered it on, it restored the high voltage and then I was able to
locate
the original fault.



** So your ".. too much current at idle" = I am not able to bring

the
variac up more than a tad without all hell breaking loose ?

Interesting use of the term "idle" there.




...... Phil




Apologies if I was a bit loose with my terminology. Perhaps we should use
fault codes in these newsgroups so misunderstandings like these don't happen
again. How about, AHBLWTUWV? (all hell breaks loose when turned up with
variac) (-:

I'll triple check the output transformer just to make sure it really is bad.

Thanks for your reply.

--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Gilbert Bates
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:30:35 -0800, "David Farber"
wrote:

I received this Music Man HD-130 amplifier with the complaint that it hums.
The four output tubes are 5881WXT. The owner replaced the two main filter
caps himself and said it didn't correct the problem. When I opened the unit
and found one of the yellow wires hanging loose from one of the filter caps,
I soldered it to the other yellow wire which was connected to the filter
cap.

See photos he

http://www.pbase.com/image/57610175.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610176.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610312.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610174.jpg

Now the amp is drawing too much current at idle and I definitely need to
check the wiring to the filter caps. I don't service many tube amps like
this. Does anyone have a schematic of this set? I tried the ernieball.com
website but it's not listed there.

Thanks for your reply.


Hey David,

I'm not going to analyze what you've done already, but I'll give you
another path for troubleshooting.

The Music Man amps had a tube phase inverter (12AX7) and regular
output tube biasing, and solid state inverter/driver (no 12AX7) WITH
TRANSISTOR biasing design in the cathodes of the output tubes.
Unfortunately, this amp has the transistor drivers as shown in your
last picture.

MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.

These amps use 6CA7/EL34's normally, not 6L6 (5881 Sovtek) types. They
must be a good quality tube also. Note the voltage rating on both
types.

I imagine one of the pussy Sovtek 5881wxt's has given out on you under
the high voltages. If a tube shorts, the transistor in the cathode
gets the full plate voltage and goes bye-bye on you. This is common on
the solid state driver MM amps, Google it. So a shorted tube along
with a shorted transistor may be badly loading your power supply with
the resultant hum in the speaker.

Looking at your last picture, It looks like the transistors may have
been replace at some point before? The screws look a little bunged up
and I don't think the TIP41C was the original device that came in
these???

I have worked on a half dozen MM amps, fortunatley they were the early
ones with a tube phase inverter :-)

I'd make sure you check the condition of both the output tubes and
these drive/bias transitors. Look around some, I'm sure you'll find
some information on this.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Gilbert Bates
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:50:54 -0700, Gilbert Bates
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:30:35 -0800, "David Farber"
wrote:

I received this Music Man HD-130 amplifier with the complaint that it hums.
The four output tubes are 5881WXT. The owner replaced the two main filter
caps himself and said it didn't correct the problem. When I opened the unit
and found one of the yellow wires hanging loose from one of the filter caps,
I soldered it to the other yellow wire which was connected to the filter
cap.

See photos he

http://www.pbase.com/image/57610175.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610176.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610312.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/57610174.jpg

Now the amp is drawing too much current at idle and I definitely need to
check the wiring to the filter caps. I don't service many tube amps like
this. Does anyone have a schematic of this set? I tried the ernieball.com
website but it's not listed there.

Thanks for your reply.


Hey David,

I'm not going to analyze what you've done already, but I'll give you
another path for troubleshooting.

The Music Man amps had a tube phase inverter (12AX7) and regular
output tube biasing, and solid state inverter/driver (no 12AX7) WITH
TRANSISTOR biasing design in the cathodes of the output tubes.
Unfortunately, this amp has the transistor drivers as shown in your
last picture.

MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.

These amps use 6CA7/EL34's normally, not 6L6 (5881 Sovtek) types. They
must be a good quality tube also. Note the voltage rating on both
types.

I imagine one of the pussy Sovtek 5881wxt's has given out on you under
the high voltages. If a tube shorts, the transistor in the cathode
gets the full plate voltage and goes bye-bye on you. This is common on
the solid state driver MM amps, Google it. So a shorted tube along
with a shorted transistor may be badly loading your power supply with
the resultant hum in the speaker.

Looking at your last picture, It looks like the transistors may have
been replace at some point before? The screws look a little bunged up
and I don't think the TIP41C was the original device that came in
these???

I have worked on a half dozen MM amps, fortunatley they were the early
ones with a tube phase inverter :-)

I'd make sure you check the condition of both the output tubes and
these drive/bias transitors. Look around some, I'm sure you'll find
some information on this.



Ok, so this is a transition model to 6L6 that I overlooked.

I use to do some work for a music store in town here. Marshall uses
these Sovteks in like the model 4100, dual high gain reverb head.
Marshall runs them fairly hot, but nothing out of the ordinary. A
shorted 5881 was a common problem that I saw 1-6 months down the road
on a new Marshall amp that uses these tubes. Backing the bias down a
little seemed to take care of the failures.

Sorry, but I'm leery of the Sovtek 5881's and probably wouldn't want
to use them it this voltage and with the drive setup on these amps.
While nothing to rave about, they work reasonably well at more
moderate conditions, but at 700V I'd probably look for something else
to use in this amp.

  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
David Farber
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:49:39 -0800, "David Farber"
wrote:

I was able to measure 52 ohms (out of
circuit) from the red to the yellow wire of the output transformer. That
would not seem to be agreeable with the schematic which puts the red on

the
primary side and the yellow on the secondary.


For the TF/6-150

Primary
BRown (Plate) - Red (HT) - BLue (Plate)

Secondary
Yellow (8-ohm) - GReeN (4-ohm) - BLacK (ground)

Looks like the output
transformer is bad.


Could be. I would suggest full tests on the trafo.

Maybe the people at the Music Man Amps Discussion Forum can help you.
http://www.pacair.com/cgi-bin/discus....cgi?pg=topics



Here are the readings I measured:

Red to brown: 137k ohms.
Red to blue: 103 ohms.
Yellow to green: Less than 0.3 ohms.
Yellow to black: 0.4 ohms.
Red to yellow: 51 ohms.

No doubt about it, this transformer is bad.

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp is a Music Man Amp Technician
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.

: Gilbert Bates wrote:
: I'm not going to analyze what you've done already, but I'll give you
: another path for troubleshooting.

I've read some of the posts and will also comment. I'm an original Music
Man Repair Person from way back. If you ask Dan at Ernie Ball Service
about early MM Amplifier questions, he'll probably send you to me. I don't
charge a thing for helping people with questions over the internet.

: The Music Man amps had a tube phase inverter (12AX7) and regular
: output tube biasing, and solid state inverter/driver (no 12AX7) WITH
: TRANSISTOR biasing design in the cathodes of the output tubes.
: Unfortunately, this amp has the transistor drivers as shown in your
: last picture.

I wouldn't say unfortunate... the solid state cathode drive system is very
robust and clean. It takes a lot to kill the early Music Man Amplifiers
and even more to kill the solid state driver version. The advantage of
the solid state system is the output tubes don't need to be rebias when
changing to a same type tube.

: MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.

Very high and nothing wrong with that. You just have to know to use high
quality tubes, which have been high pot tested for operation.

: These amps use 6CA7/EL34's normally, not 6L6 (5881 Sovtek) types. They
: must be a good quality tube also. Note the voltage rating on both
: types.

Depends on the year and model amplifier. Most of my solid state cathode
driver Music Man Amplifiers came with 6L6 tubes in place. The original
tubes were probably Sylvania, Phillips or GE, which were properly highpot
tested for operation at the higer anode (plate to some of you) voltages.

: I imagine one of the pussy Sovtek 5881wxt's has given out on you under
: the high voltages. If a tube shorts, the transistor in the cathode
: gets the full plate voltage and goes bye-bye on you. This is common on
: the solid state driver MM amps, Google it. So a shorted tube along
: with a shorted transistor may be badly loading your power supply with
: the resultant hum in the speaker.

You will only know what happened by inspection and testing with the proper
tools (multi-meter). I don't like Sovtek Tubes in the Music Man
Amplifers, they tend to flash over at lower plate voltages. I always try
to find NOS Phillips, GE or Sylvania tubes... highpot test them before
placing them into the amplifier. No sense killing the repair cathode
drive circuit a second time.

: Looking at your last picture, It looks like the transistors may have
: been replace at some point before? The screws look a little bunged up
: and I don't think the TIP41C was the original device that came in
: these???

It wasn't... they had special numbers, which cross to current NTE numbers.
I don't have the information right here with me, but you can email me
direct through the web page I post at the bottom and I'll be happy to
tell you what the transistors are and were.

: I have worked on a half dozen MM amps, fortunatley they were the early
: ones with a tube phase inverter :-)

I like the cathode drive (solid state phase inverter) units better, but
that's just me.

: I'd make sure you check the condition of both the output tubes and
: these drive/bias transitors. Look around some, I'm sure you'll find
: some information on this.

You can email me direct from the icons on my web page and I'll try to
answer your questions as time allows.

cheers,
skipp
skipp025 at yahoo.com
www.radiowrench.com/sonic
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.


"Skipp is a Music Man Amp Technician"


I've read some of the posts and will also comment. I'm an original Music
Man Repair Person from way back. If you ask Dan at Ernie Ball Service
about early MM Amplifier questions, he'll probably send you to me. I don't
charge a thing for helping people with questions over the internet.


** How unusual.....


: Unfortunately, this amp has the transistor drivers as shown in your
: last picture.

I wouldn't say unfortunate... the solid state cathode drive system is very
robust and clean. It takes a lot to kill the early Music Man Amplifiers
and even more to kill the solid state driver version.



** What asinine crap.

Those puny TO220 transistors in MM amp's cathodes *blow up* all the time.

When an output tube fails high current, it takes the driver device with it -
INSTANTLY.

This naturally kills the parallel tube too, in a 4 tube model.

No such thing is possible with the tube drive version.



The advantage of
the solid state system is the output tubes don't need to be rebias when
changing to a same type tube.



** Funny how MM provide a bias trim pot.


: MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.

Very high and nothing wrong with that. You just have to know to use high
quality tubes, which have been high pot tested for operation.



** Right - EVERY music store and tube dealer has them on offer.

LOL.


I don't like Sovtek Tubes in the Music Man
Amplifers, they tend to flash over at lower plate voltages. I always try
to find NOS Phillips, GE or Sylvania tubes... highpot test them before
placing them into the amplifier. No sense killing the repair cathode
drive circuit a second time.



** Is this dude into "double think" or WHAT !!!

The MM transistor drive scheme was a DISASTER.

Have a look at the Peavey Heritage VTX series.

PV got is right - by using TO3 devices for the job.




......... Phil




  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp replies
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.

Phil Allison wrote:

: "Skipp is a Music Man Amp Technician"
: I've read some of the posts and will also comment. I'm an original Music
: Man Repair Person from way back. If you ask Dan at Ernie Ball Service
: about early MM Amplifier questions, he'll probably send you to me. I don't
: charge a thing for helping people with questions over the internet.

: ** How unusual.....

What? that Ernie Ball Service, the current owners of Music Man would refer
you to me or that some would help people for free? I don't charge people
for answering questions. Yeah, there are a few of us out here not trying
to hustle everyone for a buck.

: I wouldn't say unfortunate... the solid state cathode drive system is very
: robust and clean. It takes a lot to kill the early Music Man Amplifiers
: and even more to kill the solid state driver version.

: ** What asinine crap.
: Those puny TO220 transistors in MM amp's cathodes *blow up*
: all the time.

Since you know so much about transistors Phil, what's wrong with a
T0-220 transistor package? The original devices were properly rated
for the task and hold up well if the circuit is not abused.

: When an output tube fails high current, it takes the driver
: device with it - INSTANTLY.
: This naturally kills the parallel tube too, in a 4 tube model.

Not really, if you didn't have your head planted, you'd notice
the low value series resistors in the cathode drive circuit, which
can and should be sized to act like fuse links. It was built that way
into some of the original Music Man designs. The key is to put
in the proper type output tubes and not have a high current
short or flash over glitch.

I've had less than 2 Music Man Amplifiers brought in from failed
or flashed over tube issues when they are equiped with the proper
brand and type tubes, which have been properly tested.

: No such thing is possible with the tube drive version.

Tube failure from flash over or shorting is not good news
regardless of which type amplifier they are used. Most hack
techs don't really know about high pot testing tubes so
they do more to damage the amplifier than retube it properly.
You appear to know little about properly testing the replacement
tubes with a high pot.

: The advantage of the solid state system is the output
: tubes don't need to be rebias when changing to a same
: type tube.

: ** Funny how MM provide a bias trim pot.

Not funny, real world. You set it once at the time of mfgr and
get on with your life. If you actually understood the operation
of the circuit, you'd know similar replacement tubes will rebias
at almost the exact same idle current value. It's a really
well done design, which is not turning up in some high end
tube audio designs. Glass Audio/ Audio Amateur Magazine had
a nice write up about it some years back.

: : MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.
:
: Very high and nothing wrong with that. You just have to know to use high
: quality tubes, which have been high pot tested for operation.

: ** Right - EVERY music store and tube dealer has them on offer.
: LOL.

No, few Dealers do so you have to quit being a buffoon and go find
the thinking Tube Dealers that can properly pre-test tubes before
shipping them out. In the US, NDB in Dever (the famous Lord Valve)
and Groove Tubes do pre-test tubes for proper operation. Any good
Tech or Tube Dealer will ensure what they sell works for the application.
Music Man Amplifiers with the much higher anode (plate voltage) are a
special application. Putting an un properly tested tube in any
amplifier is nuts.

: I don't like Sovtek Tubes in the Music Man
: Amplifers, they tend to flash over at lower plate voltages. I always try
: to find NOS Phillips, GE or Sylvania tubes... highpot test them before
: placing them into the amplifier. No sense killing the repair cathode
: drive circuit a second time.

: ** Is this dude into "double think" or WHAT !!!

Most of the failed Music Man solid state cathode drive failures I've fixed
were caused by people putting the wrong or non highpot tested tubes into
the amplifiers. I've serviced a large number of Music Man Amplifiers
through the years and I own and play through a fair number myself. If you
take care of the amplifier and replace the final tubes with the proper
type, the amplifiers will be trouble free for decades... and have been.

I've got a high pot tester for use with tubes... do you?

: The MM transistor drive scheme was a DISASTER.

Only your uninformed opinion Phil.

: Have a look at the Peavey Heritage VTX series.
: PV got is right - by using TO3 devices for the job.

The TO-220 case style has little to do with the the circuit
style. If you exceed the device ratings they will fail
regardless of the case style. If you operate the Music
Man Solid State phase inverter circuit within it's expected
normal parameters, it will pretty much last for decades
without problems. Many such equiped amplifiers are still
in service without a problem.

Regards,
skipp
www.radiowrench.com/sonic

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Mickey Mouse Imbecile !


"Skipp replies"

*** And makes a HUGE ASS of himself !!! ***


I don't
charge a thing for helping people with questions over the internet.


** How unusual.....

What? that Ernie Ball Service, the current owners of Music Man would refer
you to me or that some would help people for free? I don't charge people
for answering questions.



** Neither does anyone else " over the internet " - you moron.



: I wouldn't say unfortunate... the solid state cathode drive system is
very
: robust and clean. It takes a lot to kill the early Music Man
Amplifiers
: and even more to kill the solid state driver version.

: ** What asinine crap.

: Those puny TO220 transistors in MM amp's cathodes *blow up*
: all the time.

Since you know so much about transistors Phil, what's wrong with a
T0-220 transistor package? The original devices were properly rated
for the task and hold up well if the circuit is not abused.



** Bull**** - to BOTH asinine assertions.

Those TO220s were the simply the CHEAPEST devices MM could find that worked.

Their total demise in normal service was as predictable as night following
day.




: When an output tube fails high current, it takes the driver
: device with it - INSTANTLY.
: This naturally kills the parallel tube too, in a 4 tube model.


Not really, if you didn't have your head planted, you'd notice
the low value series resistors in the cathode drive circuit, which
can and should be sized to act like fuse links.



** WHAT ABSOLUTE BULL**** !!!

There are NO such fusible resistors in any MM amp.

Even if fusible resistors were fitted, the puny TO220s would not be saved.


The key is to put
in the proper type output tubes and not have a high current
short or flash over glitch.



** Asinine crapology !!

Tubes guaranteed never to arc or fail to a high current situation at the end
of their life do not exist in the marketplace.

The intense vibrations in a "combo" amp guarantees that the OPPOSITE
happens.



** Funny how MM provide a bias trim pot.

Not funny, real world. You set it once at the time of mfgr and
get on with your life. If you actually understood the operation
of the circuit, you'd know similar replacement tubes will rebias
at almost the exact same idle current value.



** And when the new tubes are not exactly similar ?

Or the bias components age and drift ??



: : MM amps have very high plate voltages at around 700V+.
:
: Very high and nothing wrong with that. You just have to know to use
high
: quality tubes, which have been high pot tested for operation.

: ** Right - EVERY music store and tube dealer has them on offer.
: LOL.

No, few Dealers do so...



** No-one does any such thing.

Testing a NEW tube has no bearing on its possible failure, maybe years
later.

YOU are an ignorant, lying TURD.



: The MM transistor drive scheme was a DISASTER.

Only your uninformed opinion Phil.



** YOU are an ignorant, lying TURD.


: Have a look at the Peavey Heritage VTX series.
: PV got is right - by using TO3 devices for the job.


The TO-220 case style has little to do with the the circuit
style.



** You are an absolute IDIOT who cannot even read.

The TO3 tube diver devices chosen by PV have way higher current, power and
voltage ratings - for damn good reasons.

Power tubes in guitar amps rattle to bits, burn out and often fail
spectacularly.

Those puny TO220 transistors in MM amp's cathodes *blow up* all the time.

When an output tube fails to a high current draw, it takes the driver device
with it -
INSTANTLY.

This naturally kills the parallel tube too, in a 4 tube model.

No such thing is possible with tubes driving the outputs.


YOU are just NOT interested in REALITY !!!!


**** OFF !!!!

YOU MICKEY MOUSE IMBECILE !!!





........ Phil


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp says
 
Posts: n/a
Default Mickey Mouse Imbecile !

: What? that Ernie Ball Service, the current owners of Music Man would refer
: you to me or that some would help people for free? I don't charge people
: for answering questions.

** Neither does anyone else " over the internet " - you moron.

Which proves how out of touch you are. Guys are selling manuals, circuit
diagrams and tech help over the internet with credit card pay capacity.
But you say it's not done so we'll all move on believing what you wrote.
Not...

: Since you know so much about transistors Phil, what's wrong with a
: T0-220 transistor package? The original devices were properly rated
: for the task and hold up well if the circuit is not abused.

: ** Bull**** - to BOTH asinine assertions.

Yeah, I noticed you didn't answer the question(s). Music Man made and sold
a lot of guitar amplifiers. How many have you made and sold Phil?

: Those TO220s were the simply the CHEAPEST devices MM could find that worked.

Not really... if you look at the period when the music man circuit were
built, it might be easy to say the TO-3 case transistor was just as
popular and probably just as cheap. The TO-220 case style choice was
probably not made on cost alone.

: Their total demise in normal service was as predictable as night
: following day.

So you say the many solid state cathode drive circuits still out there in
service are living on borrowed time..? Based on my paperwork here, the
last 23 Music Man amplifiers I've seen here shouldn't have left with their
original cathode drive TO-220 transistor circuits still in place...

: Not really, if you didn't have your head planted, you'd notice
: the low value series resistors in the cathode drive circuit, which
: can and should be sized to act like fuse links.

: ** WHAT ABSOLUTE BULL**** !!!

: There are NO such fusible resistors in any MM amp.

Man, you really have your head planted Phil. If you pull over ~500mA
through the 3.9 ohm 1w resistors in each of the JE1692 transistor emitter
leads, the resistor(s) should open. Since the JE1692 (cross to a 2n6292)
is rated about 7 to 10 amps Ic_max.. the resistors should fail first.
They don't have to have a label on them to say fuse link or fusable
resistors to be used in that capacity Phil. Using resistors as tube
cathode fuses was popular with a small company named Collins. I've got
some of their products from the early 60's with the same design. It's not
anything new.

: Even if fusible resistors were fitted, the puny TO220s would not be saved.

Depends on what happens during a fault condition really.


:The key is to put in the proper type output tubes and not
: have a high current short or flash over glitch.

: ** Asinine crapology !!

I guess professional tube manufactures and engineers have made
up the entier high pot testing fact and you're right?

: Tubes guaranteed never to arc or fail to a high current situation
: at the end of their life do not exist in the marketplace.

Sure they do, but that doesn't address the facts. I'll sell you a tube
that I guarantee not to arc or fail but you're going to pay 60x the
price for it and call it a special production/spec item.

The best bet is to protect against amplifier circuit glitch events. If you
ever cared to learn something about the subject, drop by web sites like
www.somis.org and http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/ and read how people
protect amplifiers from glitch and parasitic problems.

: The intense vibrations in a "combo" amp guarantees that the OPPOSITE
: happens.

Opposite of what ever the heck you're now babbling on about?

: Not funny, real world. You set it once at the time of mfgr and
: get on with your life. If you actually understood the operation
: of the circuit, you'd know similar replacement tubes will rebias
: at almost the exact same idle current value.

: ** And when the new tubes are not exactly similar ?

The tubes set up nearly the same as the originals. It never hurts to check
the bias, but it's not required in a cathode drive circuit with similar
tubes.

: Or the bias components age and drift ??

The actual cathode current is slaved through the solid state drive circuit
and is dependant on it. All things considered, the drift should be
minimal mostly depending on resistor value changes. If you
understand it, the circuit oesn't take much to check out for proper
operation.

: Testing a NEW tube has no bearing on its possible failure, maybe years
: later.
: YOU are an ignorant, lying TURD.

I can't help you stop making an a$$ of yourself Phil. You might call Lord
Valve (Willie) at NDB Electronics in Denver and ask him if testing a new
tube is something to consider.

: The TO3 tube diver devices chosen by PV have way higher current, power and
: voltage ratings - for damn good reasons.

I only care to talk about Music Man Amplifiers. There is no comparison to
any other brand regarding the hybrid cathode drive circuit. Trying to go
off topic only shows how weak your electronics theory is.

: Power tubes in guitar amps rattle to bits, burn out and often fail
: spectacularly.

Your playing dodge and weave... and doing a bad job of it.
.... Has nothing to do with the cathode drive circuit. "Cars on the
freeway rattle to bits, burn out and often fail spectacularly".

: Those puny TO220 transistors in MM amp's cathodes *blow up* all the time.
: When an output tube fails to a high current draw, it takes the
: driver device with it - INSTANTLY.

You know all Phil, you're an ex'pert. drip under pressure..

: This naturally kills the parallel tube too, in a 4 tube model.
: No such thing is possible with tubes driving the outputs.
: YOU are just NOT interested in REALITY !!!!
: **** OFF !!!!
: YOU MICKEY MOUSE IMBECILE !!!
: ....... Phil

"The most tender nerve is right behind the bulls horns". Some day
you'll un-plant your head and learn something new Phil. By the looks
of things, it won't happen anytime soon. Plus you've got to learn
to clean up your potty mouth.

s.
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Mickey Mouse Imbecile !


"Skipp says" - just what a criminal ****WIT says !



: What? that Ernie Ball Service, the current owners of Music Man would
refer
: you to me or that some would help people for free? I don't charge
people
: for answering questions.

** Neither does anyone else " over the internet " - you moron.

Which proves how out of touch you are.



** **** off - IDIOT.


Guys are selling manuals, circuit
diagrams and tech help over the internet with credit card pay capacity.



** Totally irrelevant to your ASININE remark about "answering questions".



: Since you know so much about transistors Phil, what's wrong with a
: T0-220 transistor package? The original devices were properly rated
: for the task and hold up well if the circuit is not abused.

: ** Bull**** - to BOTH asinine assertions.

Yeah, I noticed you didn't answer the question(s).



** Shame you did not post a sane one.



: Those TO220s were the simply the CHEAPEST devices MM could find that
worked.

Not really...



** Yes, really !!!

Your pig ignorance of semiconductors is outstanding.



: Their total demise in normal service was as predictable as night
: following day.

So you say ...



** Exactly what *I* wrote.

Not the asinine crap YOU write.



: Not really, if you didn't have your head planted, you'd notice
: the low value series resistors in the cathode drive circuit, which
: can and should be sized to act like fuse links.

: ** WHAT ABSOLUTE BULL**** !!!

: There are NO such fusible resistors in any MM amp.

Man, you really have your head planted Phil.



** YOU need to be taken out and shot.


If you pull over ~500mA
through the 3.9 ohm 1w resistors in each of the JE1692 transistor emitter
leads, the resistor(s) should open.



** More absolute bull****.

They are NOT fusible types.



Since the JE1692 (cross to a 2n6292)
is rated about 7 to 10 amps Ic_max.. the resistors should fail first.



** More absolute bull**** !!!

The TO220s fail in an instant, but never the resistors.

Their Vce is only 80 volts.

The SOA limit is 70 volts at a mere 200mA !!!!!

A faulty OP tube destroys the TO220 in a instant.

YOU IDIOT !!




: Even if fusible resistors were fitted, the puny TO220s would not be
saved.

Depends on what happens during a fault condition really.



** More absolute bull****.

Once the TO220s are OVERVOLTAGED, that it the end of them.



: Tubes guaranteed never to arc or fail to a high current situation
: at the end of their life do not exist in the marketplace.

Sure they do,



** Like Hell !!!

You are just making this CRAZY **** up as you go along.

Be an absolute CRIME to charge anyone for it !!




: The intense vibrations in a "combo" amp guarantees that the OPPOSITE
: happens.

Opposite of what ever the heck you're now babbling on about?



** **** off - you illiterate MORON.



: Testing a NEW tube has no bearing on its possible failure, maybe years
: later.

: YOU are an ignorant, lying TURD.

I can't help you stop making an a$$ of yourself Phil.



** You are sub human, waste of space - Skipp.

A congenital LIAR.

And a know nothing FAKE.



: The TO3 tube diver devices chosen by PV have way higher current, power
and
: voltage ratings - for damn good reasons.

I only care to talk about Music Man Amplifiers.



** Why is that ?

You know absolutely nothing about them.



There is no comparison to
any other brand regarding the hybrid cathode drive circuit.



** More asinine BULL**** !



: Power tubes in guitar amps rattle to bits, burn out and often fail
: spectacularly.

Your playing dodge and weave..



** You are sub human, waste of space - Skipp.

A congenital LIAR.

And a know nothing FAKE.




. and doing a bad job of it.
... Has nothing to do with the cathode drive circuit.




** Has everything to do with why the damn thing fails !!

You are sub human, waste of space - Skipp.

A congenital LIAR.

And a know nothing FAKE.



You know all Phil, you're an ex'pert.



** You are sub human, waste of space - Skipp.

A congenital LIAR.

And a know nothing FAKE.

Scumbags like you are a DIME a DOZEN..

YOU are just NOT interested in REALITY !!!!

YOU are so DUMB you pretend it does not even exist.

**** THE HELL OFF !!!!

YOU MICKEY MOUSE IMBECILE !!!






........... Phil





  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp say Phils potty mouth is really bad
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil Allison has a trash mouth

Some of your better words Phil, You might consider professional help to
get over your personal issues, which appear to be pretty serious.
s.

: Phil Allison wrote:
: ** **** off - IDIOT.
: : ** Bull**** - to BOTH asinine assertions.
: Not the asinine crap YOU write.
: : ** WHAT ABSOLUTE BULL**** !!!
: ** YOU need to be taken out and shot.
: ** More absolute bull****.
: ** More absolute bull**** !!!
: Their Vce is only 80 volts.
: YOU IDIOT !!
: ** More absolute bull****.
: ** Like Hell !!!
: You are just making this CRAZY **** up as you go along.
: ** **** off - you illiterate MORON.
: : YOU are an ignorant, lying TURD.
: ** You are sub human, waste of space -
: A congenital LIAR.
: And a know nothing FAKE.
: ** More asinine BULL**** !
: ** You are sub human, waste of space -
: A congenital LIAR.
: And a know nothing FAKE.
: Scumbags like you are a DIME a DOZEN..
: YOU are just NOT interested in REALITY !!!!
: YOU are so DUMB you pretend it does not even exist.
: **** THE HELL OFF !!!!
: YOU MICKEY MOUSE IMBECILE !!!
: .......... Phil







  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skipp = a CRIMINAL ASSHOLE


"Skipp"


** This "Skipp" anonymous, septic tank, moron is a *know nothing* ASSHOLE
and lying POS.

It is bad enough when a cretin like this uses a public forum to dish out
buckets full of RIDICULOUS & INSANE advice to the uninformed and unwary

But it is far, far worse, when this son of a $2 whore then engages in
mindless abuse of anyone who DARES to do the world a favour and warn others
it is all complete trash.




........ Phil



  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil has anger management problems
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil has anger problems and personal issues.

: Phil Allison wrote:

: "Phil"


: ** This "Phil" anonymous, septic tank, moron is a *know nothing* ASSHOLE
: and lying POS.

: It is bad enough when a cretin like this uses a public forum to dish out
: buckets full of RIDICULOUS & INSANE advice to the uninformed and unwary

: But it is far, far worse, when this son of a $2 whore then engages in
: mindless abuse of anyone who DARES to do the world a favour and warn others
: it is all complete trash.

: ....... Phil



  #18   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Music Man HD-130.

Hi David,

Getting back to square one, let me take a moment to try and
answer your question(s) as asked. First off, the hum is not
good news. The factory supplied tubes were made by Phillips,
GE or Sylvania and were tested for operation at the higher
anode/plate voltage used/supplied by many of the Music Man
Amplifier tube models. So any tube you place into a Music
Man amplifier should be tested for operation at the much higher
anode/plate voltage.

Testing tubes for breakdown at higher anode voltages is called
high-pot testing. It's not normally done by most dealers but should
be requested for tubes installed in amplifiers operated well
above the typical anode voltages found in many/most guitar
amplifiers with similar tubes. A few of the better or "high-end"
tube dealers can and do test tubes before shipping. Some mfgrs
like Groove Tubes make and sell tubes specified and tested for
operation in circuits like the Music Man Amplifiers. I could
also direct you to a web site with much information about making
your own basic high-pot tester.

Otherwise you take a gamble any non high- pottested tubes might
flash over, arc or short when placed into the Music Man Amplifier...
very bad news indeed.

Regarding your yellow wire, the real answer to where it goes is
found by tracing where the other end where it's attached and reversing
the wire function out using the location and the circuit diagram.
Otherwise someone with the exact same amplifer open and visible
might be able to tell you where they think the wire goes.

Excessive current draw could be caused by a number of problems,
so you should use the proper diagram, tools and test equipment
to troubleshoot the circuit through. If you have excessive
final/output tube idle current, something in the bias supply
or cathode drive circuit might be out of whack/failed. Depends
on which chassis version and circuit you have. If the tubes you
have in the amplifier are/were sold as hot or cold range type
units, they might not be able to bias up properly at the anode
voltages found in the Music Man Amplifiers.

Typical faults in the cathode drive hybrid circuit are shorted
transistors, the actual bias pot failed or mis-adjusted... when
you have excessive idle current. If your bias pot is the white
thin-flat-square trim ceramic type pot, they are well known for
being problematic after decades of service. Many people spray a
bit of Caig Labs DeOxit onto/into the pot and the circuit again
works fine. Other people replace the pot when they find it to be
the problem source. The Caig Labs DeOxit Spray will restore some
of the ceramic thin bias pots to regular service, it's just a
question of your trust in using the reconditioned original pot
or replacing it (if found to be the source of the problem).

If the cathode drive transistors are shorted, someone probably caused
an unwanted "glitch" event by putting generic replacement tubes
into the amplifier, which were not able to handle the higher anode/plate
voltage. One or more of the tubes might have flashed over - arced
or shorted. You can test and replace the transistors with a cross
referenced device. Also be sure to measure and check the transistor
emitter lead resistors as they can also open upon tube-glitch events.

There are a number of Music Man Amplifier diagrams on the web. I have
a fair number of them from my Music Man Service days and from Ernie
Ball after they bought out Music Man. If you email me direct, I can
help you find a diagram of an amplifier with the same final/output
section to trouble shoot your amplifier.

Once you get the right type of tubes in your working Music Man
Amplifier, it should last for years of playing, no problama'

cheers,
skipp
skipp025 at yahoo.com

: David Farber wrote:
: I received this Music Man HD-130 amplifier with the complaint that it hums.
: The four output tubes are 5881WXT. The owner replaced the two main filter
: caps himself and said it didn't correct the problem. When I opened the unit
: and found one of the yellow wires hanging loose from one of the filter caps,
: I soldered it to the other yellow wire which was connected to the filter
: cap.

: See photos he

: http://www.pbase.com/image/57610175.jpg
: http://www.pbase.com/image/57610176.jpg
: http://www.pbase.com/image/57610312.jpg
: http://www.pbase.com/image/57610174.jpg

: Now the amp is drawing too much current at idle and I definitely need to
: check the wiring to the filter caps. I don't service many tube amps like
: this. Does anyone have a schematic of this set? I tried the ernieball.com
: website but it's not listed there.

: Thanks for your reply.
: --
: David Farber
: David Farber's Service Center
: L.A., CA


  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skipp = a LYING PILE of ****

"Skipp"


** This "Skipp" anonymous, septic tank, moron is a *know nothing* ASSHOLE
and lying POS.

It is bad enough when a cretin like this uses a public forum to dish out
buckets full of RIDICULOUS & INSANE advice to the uninformed and unwary

But it is far, far worse, when this son of a $2 whore then engages in
mindless abuse of anyone who DARES to do the world a favour and warn others
it is all complete trash.





........ Phil




  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil proves he has no class
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil avoids answering the questions of course

: Phil Allison wrote:
.... and we're surprised he can write...

: Blow off Phil,
: Wasn't indicated in the first post I replied to.

: ** READ the WHOLE damn thread before replying,

Who gave yout the power to make usenet rules?
No, I clearly indicated my reply post was directed at
the first post. As you often say... "****-off" Phil!

: ** Bull****.
: The voltages experienced are within the spec for any
: decent EL34 or 6L6GC.

And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?


: ** Any good data book

Yeah, I figured you'd dodge the question with an incomplete answer.

How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet? Even a newer production
el-34 or 6l6gc tube?

http://www.drtube.com/tubedata.htm#BPTetrodes

Notice the much lower typical dc plate voltage. Nothing in the
data books and or manuals you might find seems to indicate reliable
operation at the typical Music Man Guitar Amplifier Anode/plate
voltages.

Got any real tube data sheets to provide a web link or actual
reference to or are you just full of angry **** all at the
time Phill? Yeah you're gonna dodge the question and not come
up with any tube data sheet with specified operation at the
higher Music Man plate voltages.

: : Testing tubes for breakdown at higher anode voltages
: : is called high-pot testing.
:
: : ** Bull****.
:
: I guess you know more than most people regarding high pot testing
: of tubes and parts as described in the locations given below:
:
: http://www.somis.org/BVT.html
: www.w8ji.com/572b_problems.htm
: www.cpii.com/EIMAC/PDF/mkt039.pdf

: ** ROTFL !
: What a load of crapology.

What about testing tubes with a high pot is crap Phil? You just
plug tubes in amplifiers without pretesting them...

: Not one is even faintly related to EL34s or 6L6GCs being used
: in a MM amp.
: "Skipp " is a DISGUSTING BLOODY LIAR
: ...... Phil

Yeah, I figured you dodge the facts.

We'll be waiting to see if you can find an EL-34 or 6L6GC data sheet
or manual, which provides a manufactures spec for operation above...
say even 650 volts.

Got even a single page/paper or data sheet available on the web Phil.

I figure you'll choke and give some angry ****-off excuse why you
won't provide it when you won't be able to find one.

"the most tender nerve is behind the bulls horns" You appear to
have more than your fair share of denial (bull).
s.




  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Gilbert Bates
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil avoids answering the questions of course

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:35:11 +0000 (UTC), Phil proves he has no class
wrote:

: Phil Allison wrote:
... and we're surprised he can write...

: Blow off Phil,
: Wasn't indicated in the first post I replied to.

: ** READ the WHOLE damn thread before replying,

Who gave yout the power to make usenet rules?
No, I clearly indicated my reply post was directed at
the first post. As you often say... "****-off" Phil!

: ** Bull****.
: The voltages experienced are within the spec for any
: decent EL34 or 6L6GC.

And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?


: ** Any good data book

Yeah, I figured you'd dodge the question with an incomplete answer.

How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet? Even a newer production
el-34 or 6l6gc tube?

http://www.drtube.com/tubedata.htm#BPTetrodes

Notice the much lower typical dc plate voltage. Nothing in the
data books and or manuals you might find seems to indicate reliable
operation at the typical Music Man Guitar Amplifier Anode/plate
voltages.

Got any real tube data sheets to provide a web link or actual
reference to or are you just full of angry **** all at the
time Phill? Yeah you're gonna dodge the question and not come
up with any tube data sheet with specified operation at the
higher Music Man plate voltages.

: : Testing tubes for breakdown at higher anode voltages
: : is called high-pot testing.
:
: : ** Bull****.
:
: I guess you know more than most people regarding high pot testing
: of tubes and parts as described in the locations given below:
:
: http://www.somis.org/BVT.html
: www.w8ji.com/572b_problems.htm
: www.cpii.com/EIMAC/PDF/mkt039.pdf

: ** ROTFL !
: What a load of crapology.

What about testing tubes with a high pot is crap Phil? You just
plug tubes in amplifiers without pretesting them...

: Not one is even faintly related to EL34s or 6L6GCs being used
: in a MM amp.
: "Skipp " is a DISGUSTING BLOODY LIAR
: ...... Phil

Yeah, I figured you dodge the facts.

We'll be waiting to see if you can find an EL-34 or 6L6GC data sheet
or manual, which provides a manufactures spec for operation above...
say even 650 volts.

Got even a single page/paper or data sheet available on the web Phil.

I figure you'll choke and give some angry ****-off excuse why you
won't provide it when you won't be able to find one.

"the most tender nerve is behind the bulls horns" You appear to
have more than your fair share of denial (bull).
s.



Look at it from an engineering perspective Skipp.

High potting in the commercial / manufacturing environment is
typically used for design and compliance *verification* and not pass /
fail *testing*. Obviously, high-potting may find use in some testing
situations, but if you use it for pass/fail testing, then what does
that say about your design ability?

The max rating for a 6L6GC is 500V. If you use it beyond that rating,
then high-pot testing is used to support your poor engineering
decision to use a device beyond it's rated specs to begin with.

The EL34 has an 800V max rating. If you can't trust it to 800V without
further testing, then why use it?

Typical usage parameters and operation are just that, typical. Some
folks use a general rule of thumb that cut-off usage of a device at
80% of it's max rating.

No offense, as I see were you are coming from and what you feel you
need to do from the testing perspective. But I'd have to agree with
Phil, what you are doing with high-potting is just plain wrong from an
engineering perspective.

If any tube does not perform to it's published specs, then don't use
it. I don't care if it was manufactured 60 years ago or yesterday. A
6L6 or EL34 should perform to its published specs, even if those specs
come off a datasheet that is older than your grandmother, otherwise it
is not a 6L6GC, EL34 or it is simply junk. That's the point Phil is
making.

To add high-pot testing on the rear end of manufacturing is an
additional costly layer that most modern manufacturers will not
tolerate. Again, you guarantee performance by *design* (high-potting
or compliance testing on the front end), you do not guarantee
performance by *test* on the rear end. Otherwise you end up throwing
product in the trash when they don't test to specs. Sample testing on
the rear end is one thing, but if your in the latter position,
guarantee performance by test on every device. then you fire all the
engineers and find someone the can design something to work properly
to begin with. And if you use something at near or above it's
published specs, then that's perhaps bad decision making on the
engineers part and you'll have to live with the fragile house of cards
that you've constructed as you're doing now...

Cheers!
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default **** OFF - YOU DAMN IDIOT


Some Criminal, lying IDIOT called "Skipp" ??


** Bull****.

The voltages experienced are within the spec for any
decent EL34 or 6L6GC.


And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?


** Any good data book.



How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet?



** The spec you need to check is the one for *absolute max* plate voltage.

It is typically quoted as 2000 volts (or more) for both the EL34 and the
6L6GC.

Very high peak plate voltages *are* experienced in a guitar amp.

In a Marshall it can reach *5000* volts peak during overdrive !

In a Music Man it cannot exceed 1500 volts or double the plate supply.

That is what those HV plate diodes do.



We'll be waiting to see if you can find an EL-34 or 6L6GC data sheet
or manual, which provides a manufactures spec for operation above...
say even 650 volts.



** Output tubes operate at well over 1000 volts peak in the majority of
guitar amplifiers.

In a Marshall, or similar amp, peak plate voltage can reach +/- 5000.

Data sheets for the EL34 give the *plate max voltage* as 2000 volts.



The max **plate supply** is given as 800 volts.

Which has NOTHING to do with "hi=pot" testing.

Only a COMPLETE ****WIT does not KNOW the distinction.

"Skipp" is just such a COMPLETE ****WIT.






......... Phil




  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Too many LIES from Skipp


"Gilbert Bates"

Look at it from an engineering perspective Skipp.



** The lying cretin has no idea what that is.


High potting in the commercial / manufacturing environment is
typically used for design and compliance *verification* and not pass /
fail *testing*.



** Correct.


The max rating for a 6L6GC is 500V.



** No it is not.

That is a max *plate supply voltage* figure for a particular set of
operating conditions.

It is based on NOT exceeding the plate or screen *dissipation* figures in
normal amplifier service.


The EL34 has an 800V max rating.



** Again, that is a *plate supply voltage* for a particular set of operating
conditions.


If any tube does not perform to it's published specs, then don't use
it. I don't care if it was manufactured 60 years ago or yesterday. A
6L6 or EL34 should perform to its published specs, even if those specs
come off a datasheet that is older than your grandmother, otherwise it
is not a 6L6GC, EL34 or it is simply junk. That's the point Phil is
making.




** Skipp is hung up on the term " high-pot" - he does not understand it
PLUS it is being misused by shonky tube vendors like LV to make a fast buck
from gullible musicians.

In any case, no matter what electrical test a tube passes when it is brand
new - it likely will fail in host of horrible ways after months or years
of service in a guitar amp.

This is the INHERENT problem for the MM transistor drive circuit.

It is not FAIL SAFE when a tube fails.




........ Phil


  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil avoids answering the questions of course

Hi Gilbert,

Nice to see your civil reply... please let me make some comments.

: Gilbert Bates wrote:
: Look at it from an engineering perspective Skipp.
: High potting in the commercial / manufacturing environment is
: typically used for design and compliance *verification* and not pass /
: fail *testing*. Obviously, high-potting may find use in some testing
: situations, but if you use it for pass/fail testing, then what does
: that say about your design ability?

When rusky and asian made low cost tubes started showing up as cheap
alternatives, their failure rates (and sound in some cases) were pretty
high. Companies like New Sensor has some reported horible problems with
quality control. People trusted the Dealers to sell them new tubes, which
few had actually tested. Many people experienced amplifier damage and
related tube failures because of short cuts and someone's lack of design
ability on the mfgr side.

Tube people like Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics and others have built up a
faithfull reputation for pre-testing tubes. In a high dollar amplifier,
people will probably pay more attention to the quality of
replacement tubes. In an amplifier with much higher average anode (plate)
potentials, you had better pay attention to the tube quality or the
results can be/often are costly.

: The max rating for a 6L6GC is 500V. If you use it beyond that rating,
: then high-pot testing is used to support your poor engineering
: decision to use a device beyond it's rated specs to begin with.

Some selected & tested tubes are not limited to the max rating of 500V.

: The EL34 has an 800V max rating. If you can't trust it to 800V without
: further testing, then why use it?

I agree, but some Music Man circuits used selected 6L6GC tubes.

: Typical usage parameters and operation are just that, typical. Some
: folks use a general rule of thumb that cut-off usage of a device at
: 80% of it's max rating.

Some folks do. ... and some folks take the wild cards out of deck
by proper testing the tubes for proper operation and spec. Again,
Groove Tubes has made a huge business out of selection, grading and
testing of tubes.

: No offense, as I see were you are coming from and what you feel you
: need to do from the testing perspective. But I'd have to agree with
: Phil, what you are doing with high-potting is just plain wrong from an
: engineering perspective.

I'm not engineering and amplifier over 24 years. Trying to return it
to original operation required you pay special attention to the
replacement tube issues. There is much less tube quality control fudge
factor with the much higher anode/plate voltages used in the MM Circuit.

: If any tube does not perform to it's published specs, then don't use
: it. I don't care if it was manufactured 60 years ago or yesterday. A
: 6L6 or EL34 should perform to its published specs, even if those specs
: come off a datasheet that is older than your grandmother, otherwise it
: is not a 6L6GC, EL34 or it is simply junk. That's the point Phil is
: making.

Nothing wrong with the above... I simply say you should high-pot test
new tubes for breakdown before you place them into the less forgiving
(much higher than average anode/plate voltage) Music Man Amplifiers.

Do you pre-test tubes you place into service? If you know the amplifier
has much higher plate voltages vs the average circuit, would you not
try to test it for breakdown at the higher voltages?

: To add high-pot testing on the rear end of manufacturing is an
: additional costly layer that most modern manufacturers will not
: tolerate.

Of tubes or of amplifier circuits?

: Again, you guarantee performance by *design* (high-potting
: or compliance testing on the front end), you do not guarantee
: performance by *test* on the rear end. Otherwise you end up throwing
: product in the trash when they don't test to specs. Sample testing on
: the rear end is one thing, but if your in the latter position,
: guarantee performance by test on every device. then you fire all the
: engineers and find someone the can design something to work properly
: to begin with. And if you use something at near or above it's
: published specs, then that's perhaps bad decision making on the
: engineers part and you'll have to live with the fragile house of cards
: that you've constructed as you're doing now...
: Cheers!

Possibly, but in dealing with tubes vs a circuit. People will pay
for Wal Mart most of the time.

But people who drive higher performance cars don't often buy tires at
Wal Mart. Owners of amplifiers with much higher than average plate/anode
potentials should not only pre-test new tubes for proper operation. A
high-pot test will give you an indication of the tube will withstand the
higher potentials found in the Music Man Amplifiers.

If you high-pot test a cross section of off the shelf untested replacement
tubes, you'll probably find a few are potential trouble makers.

cheers,
skipp
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default **** OFF - YOU DAMN LIAR


"Skipp" = a lying PILE Of ****


Tube people like Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics and others have built up a
faithfull reputation for pre-testing tubes.



** Groove Tubes is nothing but a clever CRIMINAL SCAM .

Crap tubes from Asia do not get any better because some half-witted hippy
carried out a meaningless test procedure.


Some selected & tested tubes are not limited to the max rating of 500V.



** 6L6 GCs and EL34s are *speced* at 2000 volts maximum - you IGNORANT
ASSHOLE.


Some folks do. ... and some folks take the wild cards out of deck
by proper testing the tubes for proper operation and spec. Again,
Groove Tubes has made a huge business out of selection, grading and
testing of tubes.



** Groove Tubes is nothing but a clever CRIMINAL SCAM .

Crap tubes from Asia do not get any better because some half-wit hippy
carried out a meaningless test procedure.


I'm not engineering and amplifier over 24 years. Trying to return it
to original operation required you pay special attention to the
replacement tube issues. There is much less tube quality control fudge
factor with the much higher anode/plate voltages used in the MM Circuit.



** Any decent EL34 or 6L6GC will operate fine in a MM amp.

It is one of the easier amps on its output tubes - compared to tube
killers like Marshall, Laney& Orange.


Nothing wrong with the above... I simply say you should high-pot test
new tubes for breakdown before you place them into the less forgiving
(much higher than average anode/plate voltage) Music Man Amplifiers.



** You do not even know what "hi-pot" testing is,

you LYING PILE OF **** !!



Do you pre-test tubes you place into service? If you know the amplifier
has much higher plate voltages vs the average circuit, would you not
try to test it for breakdown at the higher voltages?



** Marshalls can subject their EL34s to 5000 volt peaks during operation.

MM amps do not exceed 1500 volts due to the use of reverse diodes from
plates to ground.

The " breakdown" issue comes from inductive kick backs, NOT plate SUPPLY
voltage.


Skipp is a FAKE !!!

The ASSHOLE knows nothing.

He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.

B E W A R E !!




......... Phil






  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Skipp still is a bitter horses behind
 
Posts: n/a
Default **** OFF - YOU DAMN LIAR

: Tube people like Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics and others have built up a
: faithfull reputation for pre-testing tubes.

: ** Groove Tubes is nothing but a clever CRIMINAL SCAM .

Now your true colors are showing through Phil.

: Crap tubes from Asia do not get any better because some half-witted hippy
: carried out a meaningless test procedure.

Yeah right Phil, I guess all the people buying Groove Tubes are going to
purchase their next replacements from you... not!

: Some selected & tested tubes are not limited to the max rating of 500V.

: ** 6L6 GCs and EL34s are *speced* at 2000 volts maximum -

Where on a 6l6GC data sheet do you see specified AB1 or AB2 operation at
2000 volts max Phil..?

: ** Groove Tubes is nothing but a clever CRIMINAL SCAM .

You seem to be the only one equating Criminal Scam with Groove Tubes Phil.
Try the decafe and get a life.

: ** Any decent EL34 or 6L6GC will operate fine in a MM amp.
: It is one of the easier amps on its output tubes - compared to tube
: killers like Marshall, Laney& Orange.

Typical off topic dodge... We're only talking about the Music Man
amplifiers, you know... the circuits with higher than average plate/anode
potentials, which are not so forgiving of cheaper quality tubes.

: Nothing wrong with the above... I simply say you should high-pot test
: new tubes for breakdown before you place them into the less forgiving
: (much higher than average anode/plate voltage) Music Man Amplifiers.

: Do you pre-test tubes you place into service? If you know the amplifier
: has much higher plate voltages vs the average circuit, would you not
: try to test it for breakdown at the higher voltages?

: ** Marshalls can subject their EL34s to 5000 volt peaks during operation.

Another off topic dodge. Music Man Amplifiers using the 6L6GC Phil..!
Remember the original post said nothing about Marshall Amplifiers.

: MM amps do not exceed 1500 volts due to the use of reverse diodes from
: plates to ground.

You call them reverse connected diodes Phil..? You'd better get your
thinking hat back out of your behind and figure out what they're really
called.

: The " breakdown" issue comes from inductive kick backs, NOT plate
: SUPPLY voltage.

You need some decafe... If you were a little more civil I'd debate your
inductive kick back topic a bit. Tube breakdown concerns come from a
number of issues and all those sources come into play during MM Amp
operation.

: Skip is a FAKE !!!
: He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.
: B E W A R E !!
: ........ Phil

Yeah right Phil, we'll all still be waiting for your 6L6GC tube data
sheet info, which says the 6L6GC tube can operate at the ~700vdc plus
plate voltage found in Music Man Amplifiers. We're talking any data sheet
with an actual AB1 or AB2 amplifier operation spec, not some off topic
dodge as seen quite a bit in your typical bitter blather.
s.
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil must have a bad home life
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF

: Phil Allison wrote:

: And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?
: ** Any good data book.
: How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet?
: ** The spec you need to check is the one for *absolute max* plate voltage.

How about one for actual AB1 or AB2 operation? The spec that mentions
the mfgrs recomended values for typical guitar/audio amplifier operation.

: It is typically quoted as 2000 volts (or more) for both
: the EL34 and the 6L6GC.

In AB1 or AB1 amplifier operation..? Where's the link to that data sheet
Phil?

: Very high peak plate voltages *are* experienced in a guitar amp.

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....!!!! Oh, you put us to sleep Phil. Since
you're having so much fun. We can all say that "very high peak plate
voltages *are* experienced in most amplifiers. Oh joy, now we all have
some really technical information... but not from you Phil.

: In a Marshall it can reach *5000* volts peak during overdrive !

No where in the original post was a Marshall Amplifier mentioned Phil.
Talk about going off topic again.

: In a Music Man it cannot exceed 1500 volts or double the plate supply.
: That is what those HV plate diodes do.

So figure some bitter AH like yourself puts an untested low dollar
replacement tube into an amplifier with higher plate voltage. Regardless
of the amplifier model (just for you Phil) a tube "glitch event" is not
good news. Do you put untested tubes in amplifiers Phil?

: ** Output tubes operate at well over 1000 volts peak in the majority of
: guitar amplifiers.
: In a Marshall, or similar amp, peak plate voltage can reach +/- 5000.
: Data sheets for the EL34 give the *plate max voltage* as 2000 volts.

How about any mfgrs data sheet for actual AB1 or AB2 audio amplifier
service using the 6L6GC? What's that value you seem to never provide?

: The max **plate supply** is given as 800 volts.
: Which has NOTHING to do with "hi=pot" testing.

High-Pot or Hi-Pot is related to testing tubes (& parts) for
breakdown at higher potentials. You drone on about it being bad
news to place tested tubes into amplifiers. I guess you're going
to overtake Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics or New Sensor as the
better tube re-seller very soon. If you're placing untested tubes
into amplifiers with just the word of the tube seller, you're
just another bad hack Phil. And a bitter one at that...
s.

  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Phil Allison
 
Posts: n/a
Default **** OFF - YOU DAMN LIAR


Skipp is a FAKE !!!

The ASSHOLE knows nothing.

He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.

B E W A R E !!


Skipp is a FAKE !!!

The ASSHOLE knows nothing.

He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.

B E W A R E !!


Skipp is a FAKE !!!

The ASSHOLE knows nothing.

He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.

B E W A R E !!


Skipp is a FAKE !!!

The ASSHOLE knows nothing.

He is a brainless, human parrot for scam artist tube re-sellers.

B E W A R E !!


How many time do I have to tell you ?




........... Phil


  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Jack Crenshaw
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF

Phil must have a bad home life wrote:
: Phil Allison wrote:

: And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?
: ** Any good data book.
: How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet?
: ** The spec you need to check is the one for *absolute max* plate voltage.

How about one for actual AB1 or AB2 operation? The spec that mentions
the mfgrs recomended values for typical guitar/audio amplifier operation.

: It is typically quoted as 2000 volts (or more) for both
: the EL34 and the 6L6GC.

In AB1 or AB1 amplifier operation..? Where's the link to that data sheet
Phil?

: Very high peak plate voltages *are* experienced in a guitar amp.

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....!!!! Oh, you put us to sleep Phil. Since
you're having so much fun. We can all say that "very high peak plate
voltages *are* experienced in most amplifiers. Oh joy, now we all have
some really technical information... but not from you Phil.

: In a Marshall it can reach *5000* volts peak during overdrive !

No where in the original post was a Marshall Amplifier mentioned Phil.
Talk about going off topic again.

: In a Music Man it cannot exceed 1500 volts or double the plate supply.
: That is what those HV plate diodes do.

So figure some bitter AH like yourself puts an untested low dollar
replacement tube into an amplifier with higher plate voltage. Regardless
of the amplifier model (just for you Phil) a tube "glitch event" is not
good news. Do you put untested tubes in amplifiers Phil?

: ** Output tubes operate at well over 1000 volts peak in the majority of
: guitar amplifiers.
: In a Marshall, or similar amp, peak plate voltage can reach +/- 5000.
: Data sheets for the EL34 give the *plate max voltage* as 2000 volts.

How about any mfgrs data sheet for actual AB1 or AB2 audio amplifier
service using the 6L6GC? What's that value you seem to never provide?

: The max **plate supply** is given as 800 volts.
: Which has NOTHING to do with "hi=pot" testing.

High-Pot or Hi-Pot is related to testing tubes (& parts) for
breakdown at higher potentials. You drone on about it being bad
news to place tested tubes into amplifiers. I guess you're going
to overtake Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics or New Sensor as the
better tube re-seller very soon. If you're placing untested tubes
into amplifiers with just the word of the tube seller, you're
just another bad hack Phil. And a bitter one at that...
s.


What is _WRONG_ with you people????

There was a time -- and not that long ago -- when this NG was populated
adults. While we didn't always agree, we did manage to disagree with at
least a modicum of civility. Now you guys are arguing like
first-graders, fighting over an Easter egg or a chocolate bar.

In the end, who _GIVES_ a rat's ass about the maximum plate voltage of
an EL-34? We're in the middle of a War on Terror. Thousands of people
died in 9/11. Thousands more have died since. Hundreds more died in
New Orleans. And you think the world is going to revolve around the
maximum plate voltage of an EL-34? What _PLANET_ do you people live on?

Certainly not the same one as I.

Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.

Jack
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Jon Yaeger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF



What is _WRONG_ with you people????

There was a time -- and not that long ago -- when this NG was populated
adults. While we didn't always agree, we did manage to disagree with at
least a modicum of civility. Now you guys are arguing like
first-graders, fighting over an Easter egg or a chocolate bar.

In the end, who _GIVES_ a rat's ass about the maximum plate voltage of
an EL-34? We're in the middle of a War on Terror. Thousands of people
died in 9/11. Thousands more have died since. Hundreds more died in
New Orleans. And you think the world is going to revolve around the
maximum plate voltage of an EL-34? What _PLANET_ do you people live on?

Certainly not the same one as I.

Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.

Jack



Yeah, like go over to the bookshelf and look up those maximum plate values!!

;-)

Jon



  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF



Jack Crenshaw wrote:

Phil must have a bad home life wrote:
: Phil Allison wrote:

: And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?
: ** Any good data book.
: How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet?
: ** The spec you need to check is the one for *absolute max* plate voltage.

How about one for actual AB1 or AB2 operation? The spec that mentions
the mfgrs recomended values for typical guitar/audio amplifier operation.

: It is typically quoted as 2000 volts (or more) for both
: the EL34 and the 6L6GC.

In AB1 or AB1 amplifier operation..? Where's the link to that data sheet
Phil?

: Very high peak plate voltages *are* experienced in a guitar amp.

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....!!!! Oh, you put us to sleep Phil. Since
you're having so much fun. We can all say that "very high peak plate
voltages *are* experienced in most amplifiers. Oh joy, now we all have
some really technical information... but not from you Phil.

: In a Marshall it can reach *5000* volts peak during overdrive !

No where in the original post was a Marshall Amplifier mentioned Phil.
Talk about going off topic again.

: In a Music Man it cannot exceed 1500 volts or double the plate supply.
: That is what those HV plate diodes do.

So figure some bitter AH like yourself puts an untested low dollar
replacement tube into an amplifier with higher plate voltage. Regardless
of the amplifier model (just for you Phil) a tube "glitch event" is not
good news. Do you put untested tubes in amplifiers Phil?

: ** Output tubes operate at well over 1000 volts peak in the majority of
: guitar amplifiers.
: In a Marshall, or similar amp, peak plate voltage can reach +/- 5000.
: Data sheets for the EL34 give the *plate max voltage* as 2000 volts.

How about any mfgrs data sheet for actual AB1 or AB2 audio amplifier
service using the 6L6GC? What's that value you seem to never provide?

: The max **plate supply** is given as 800 volts.
: Which has NOTHING to do with "hi=pot" testing.

High-Pot or Hi-Pot is related to testing tubes (& parts) for
breakdown at higher potentials. You drone on about it being bad
news to place tested tubes into amplifiers. I guess you're going
to overtake Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics or New Sensor as the
better tube re-seller very soon. If you're placing untested tubes
into amplifiers with just the word of the tube seller, you're
just another bad hack Phil. And a bitter one at that...
s.


What is _WRONG_ with you people????

There was a time -- and not that long ago -- when this NG was populated
adults. While we didn't always agree, we did manage to disagree with at
least a modicum of civility. Now you guys are arguing like
first-graders, fighting over an Easter egg or a chocolate bar.

In the end, who _GIVES_ a rat's ass about the maximum plate voltage of
an EL-34? We're in the middle of a War on Terror. Thousands of people
died in 9/11. Thousands more have died since. Hundreds more died in
New Orleans. And you think the world is going to revolve around the
maximum plate voltage of an EL-34? What _PLANET_ do you people live on?

Certainly not the same one as I.


But we do all share the same world.

People die screaming each day on the roads and in industrial/mining/farming
accidents
and by cancer dealt out to them from a merciless God. Isn't the road toll 50,000
pa for the US?
Don't 13,000 people get shot pa in the US?
The number dying by wars, terror, etc are quite small compared to the unsung
thousands
starving to death or living in such squalor that you wouldn't tolerate.
You may shoot yourself with your beautifully made american pistol if you were
forced to live the life of the average have-not on the planet somewhere in Africa,
or rural china / india etc.

Better that you would moan and groan about your rich countries apathy to and
treatment of the suffering of millions
rather than focus on the mainly self inflicted suffering of America's peoples.

The rate of painful death has been going on since Eve whacked the tempting snake
on the head with a stick,
cooked it up and served it to Adam to eat. Adam said, "Dis good tucker Eve, ****
dat apple ****".
Neither Satan or God were happy with the experiment of allowing apes to evolve
into ****ing people,
and have been inflicting **** that happens ever since a very long time ago.

One day soon, **** will happen to each of us to lead us to our conversion of us
and of our spirit
into a puff of smoke, oil prices permitting.

We start out being a smile on our parents faces, and finish up nothing except an
urnful of dust.
Very few people are remembered for their time between smiles and dust.

To be famous for longer than 15 minutes takes an exponentially greater amount of
effort
by the after-smile non-dust person, although some only become famous after
becoming dust.
Just imagine if there was a meaning to life! The universe is infinite, and its
knowledge is infinite.
Yet we have those who think they know everything, and would thus be God if they
did.
Leave 'em alone to argue with each other.


Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.


Nah, let them sit there jabbing at their keyboards all bloody day.

Think of the terrible damage they would cause away from their computer!!

Patrick Turner.

I ain't gonna let em make me grumpy.



Jack


  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Jack Crenshaw
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF

Patrick Turner wrote:

Jack Crenshaw wrote:


Phil must have a bad home life wrote:

: Phil Allison wrote:

: And those "decent" el-34 - 6L6GC tube data sheet/specs are where?
: ** Any good data book.
: How about an actual mfgrs 6L6GC data sheet?
: ** The spec you need to check is the one for *absolute max* plate voltage.

How about one for actual AB1 or AB2 operation? The spec that mentions
the mfgrs recomended values for typical guitar/audio amplifier operation.

: It is typically quoted as 2000 volts (or more) for both
: the EL34 and the 6L6GC.

In AB1 or AB1 amplifier operation..? Where's the link to that data sheet
Phil?

: Very high peak plate voltages *are* experienced in a guitar amp.

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....!!!! Oh, you put us to sleep Phil. Since
you're having so much fun. We can all say that "very high peak plate
voltages *are* experienced in most amplifiers. Oh joy, now we all have
some really technical information... but not from you Phil.

: In a Marshall it can reach *5000* volts peak during overdrive !

No where in the original post was a Marshall Amplifier mentioned Phil.
Talk about going off topic again.

: In a Music Man it cannot exceed 1500 volts or double the plate supply.
: That is what those HV plate diodes do.

So figure some bitter AH like yourself puts an untested low dollar
replacement tube into an amplifier with higher plate voltage. Regardless
of the amplifier model (just for you Phil) a tube "glitch event" is not
good news. Do you put untested tubes in amplifiers Phil?

: ** Output tubes operate at well over 1000 volts peak in the majority of
: guitar amplifiers.
: In a Marshall, or similar amp, peak plate voltage can reach +/- 5000.
: Data sheets for the EL34 give the *plate max voltage* as 2000 volts.

How about any mfgrs data sheet for actual AB1 or AB2 audio amplifier
service using the 6L6GC? What's that value you seem to never provide?

: The max **plate supply** is given as 800 volts.
: Which has NOTHING to do with "hi=pot" testing.

High-Pot or Hi-Pot is related to testing tubes (& parts) for
breakdown at higher potentials. You drone on about it being bad
news to place tested tubes into amplifiers. I guess you're going
to overtake Groove Tubes, NDB Electronics or New Sensor as the
better tube re-seller very soon. If you're placing untested tubes
into amplifiers with just the word of the tube seller, you're
just another bad hack Phil. And a bitter one at that...
s.


What is _WRONG_ with you people????

There was a time -- and not that long ago -- when this NG was populated
adults. While we didn't always agree, we did manage to disagree with at
least a modicum of civility. Now you guys are arguing like
first-graders, fighting over an Easter egg or a chocolate bar.

In the end, who _GIVES_ a rat's ass about the maximum plate voltage of
an EL-34? We're in the middle of a War on Terror. Thousands of people
died in 9/11. Thousands more have died since. Hundreds more died in
New Orleans. And you think the world is going to revolve around the
maximum plate voltage of an EL-34? What _PLANET_ do you people live on?

Certainly not the same one as I.



But we do all share the same world.

People die screaming each day on the roads and in industrial/mining/farming
accidents


All the more reason to find something more meaningful to talk about.

and by cancer dealt out to them from a merciless God.


Well, I suppose it could be worse. At least you believe in God.

Isn't the road toll 50,000
pa for the US?


Yep, that's right. Actually, it's been going down a little bit every
year, thanks to far better brakes, air bags, seat belts, and roads. But
it's still horribly high.

Don't 13,000 people get shot pa in the US?


Not sure about that one.

The number dying by wars, terror, etc are quite small compared to the unsung
thousands
starving to death or living in such squalor that you wouldn't tolerate.


You have a point. After the 1991 Gulf war, someone did a study on the
death rate of the GI's. Turns out, it was _LOWER_ than if they'd stayed
in the States. In the States, they're exposed to that accident rate,
shooting rate, etc. A lot of GI's still die due to accidents -- witness
the guys who drove their tank off a bridge the other day. But, except
for the minor problem of IED's, they're still safer than on base.

You may shoot yourself with your beautifully made american pistol if you were
forced to live the life of the average have-not on the planet somewhere in Africa,
or rural china / india etc.


Whereas you, on the other hand, would be cool with it, right? Most
likely, you're sending them money every month, right?

Better that you would moan and groan about your rich countries apathy to and
treatment of the suffering of millions
rather than focus on the mainly self inflicted suffering of America's peoples.


Patrick, I'm not sure just how we got off onto a litany of what's wrong
with America. But from conversations we've had before, you might recall
that I don't much appreciate foreigners who seem intent on telling us
everything that's wrong with us. There's a certain saying about motes
and eyes?

The rate of painful death has been going on since Eve whacked the tempting snake
on the head with a stick,
cooked it up and served it to Adam to eat. Adam said, "Dis good tucker Eve, ****
dat apple ****".
Neither Satan or God were happy with the experiment of allowing apes to evolve
into ****ing people,
and have been inflicting **** that happens ever since a very long time ago.


So what's your solution? Maybe we should all drink the Kool-Aid, to
make the world safer for opossums?

One day soon, **** will happen to each of us to lead us to our conversion of us
and of our spirit
into a puff of smoke, oil prices permitting.

We start out being a smile on our parents faces, and finish up nothing except an
urnful of dust.
Very few people are remembered for their time between smiles and dust.

To be famous for longer than 15 minutes takes an exponentially greater amount of
effort
by the after-smile non-dust person, although some only become famous after
becoming dust.
Just imagine if there was a meaning to life! The universe is infinite, and its
knowledge is infinite.
Yet we have those who think they know everything, and would thus be God if they
did.
Leave 'em alone to argue with each other.


Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.



Nah, let them sit there jabbing at their keyboards all bloody day.

Think of the terrible damage they would cause away from their computer!!


You know what? I think you're absolutely right. Let 'em go with it. It
keeps them off the street.

Jack


Patrick Turner.

I ain't gonna let em make me grumpy.



Jack



  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF

On Tue, 16 May 2006 02:19:25 GMT, Jack Crenshaw wrote:


and by cancer dealt out to them from a merciless God.


Well, I suppose it could be worse. At least you believe in God.


Why do you morons think it's a good idea to believe in magic gods?

What makes you think you are so ****ing superior because you are a BELIEVER?

What gives you the right to dictate your ****ing stupid beliefs in magic on
everyone?

And why do you pick and choose what to follow in your stupid bible?

You are a sick ****! You are brain damaged goods... You think it's bad to show
a women stuck with a penis, but perfectly OK to show it with a knife!!

You religious ****ing freak-shows make me sick!

Thanks for 9-11

thanks for Ireland

Thanks for Palestine

Thanks for all the middle east and the un-countable dead.

Thanks for Indonesia

the list goes on and on...

just notice one thing - no atheists were involved, ****er!

What makes me happy? Since there is no heaven or life after death - you will
sacrifice certain things in your life for a reward, (like virgins and wine no
doubt) but you will get JACK ****!!!

HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!

oh, one last thing - PLONK!

  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF



Better that you would moan and groan about your rich countries apathy to and
treatment of the suffering of millions
rather than focus on the mainly self inflicted suffering of America's peoples.


Patrick, I'm not sure just how we got off onto a litany of what's wrong
with America. But from conversations we've had before, you might recall
that I don't much appreciate foreigners who seem intent on telling us
everything that's wrong with us. There's a certain saying about motes
and eyes?


I wouldn't tell a foreigner what his country's foriegn policy should be without
expecting to get some flak.
My own country's actions could easily be criticised. All governments of all persuasions
will always leave us with sometghing to complain about and routinely they ignore at
least 1/2 the population
unless the 1/2 turns into a kick ass 3/4 of the population, and then they start
listening.

Don't get me wrong, I ain't perfect, and nor is anyone else.



The rate of painful death has been going on since Eve whacked the tempting snake
on the head with a stick,
cooked it up and served it to Adam to eat. Adam said, "Dis good tucker Eve, ****
dat apple ****".
Neither Satan or God were happy with the experiment of allowing apes to evolve
into ****ing people,
and have been inflicting **** that happens ever since a very long time ago.


So what's your solution? Maybe we should all drink the Kool-Aid, to
make the world safer for opossums?


I don't have a solution; certianly not a "final solution", which was tried in Germany;
its tempting though, round up the arsoles and gas 'em.

The trouble is that religion and politics make arsoles out of a lotta ppl who just ain't
arsoles.

I only have a vote, which is next to SFA.



One day soon, **** will happen to each of us to lead us to our conversion of us
and of our spirit
into a puff of smoke, oil prices permitting.

We start out being a smile on our parents faces, and finish up nothing except an
urnful of dust.
Very few people are remembered for their time between smiles and dust.

To be famous for longer than 15 minutes takes an exponentially greater amount of
effort
by the after-smile non-dust person, although some only become famous after
becoming dust.
Just imagine if there was a meaning to life! The universe is infinite, and its
knowledge is infinite.
Yet we have those who think they know everything, and would thus be God if they
did.
Leave 'em alone to argue with each other.


Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.



Nah, let them sit there jabbing at their keyboards all bloody day.

Think of the terrible damage they would cause away from their computer!!


You know what? I think you're absolutely right. Let 'em go with it. It
keeps them off the street.

Jack


And outa jail and outa hospital, saving the national expenditure of taxpayer funds
on wardens and doctors abd psychiatrists.......

Patrick Turner.

Do whatever, just don't try to bend my nose.




Patrick Turner.

I ain't gonna let em make me grumpy.



Jack




  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF



wrote:

On Tue, 16 May 2006 02:19:25 GMT, Jack Crenshaw wrote:


and by cancer dealt out to them from a merciless God.


Well, I suppose it could be worse. At least you believe in God.


Why do you morons think it's a good idea to believe in magic gods?

What makes you think you are so ****ing superior because you are a BELIEVER?

What gives you the right to dictate your ****ing stupid beliefs in magic on
everyone?

And why do you pick and choose what to follow in your stupid bible?

You are a sick ****! You are brain damaged goods... You think it's bad to show
a women stuck with a penis, but perfectly OK to show it with a knife!!

You religious ****ing freak-shows make me sick!

Thanks for 9-11

thanks for Ireland

Thanks for Palestine

Thanks for all the middle east and the un-countable dead.

Thanks for Indonesia

the list goes on and on...

just notice one thing - no atheists were involved, ****er!

What makes me happy? Since there is no heaven or life after death - you will
sacrifice certain things in your life for a reward, (like virgins and wine no
doubt) but you will get JACK ****!!!

HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!

oh, one last thing - PLONK!


I heard all that sort of talk a thousand times Mr Smarter @ then.

I hope you are serenely peaceful with your philosophies.

But answer one question if you can.
If the universe is infinite, then what or who brought it into existance?

I'll try to help you answer it with optional answers, since there may be an
infinite number of answers
that all could be correct, or incorrect, but to really be able to judge you'd have
to be
what I myself consider to be GOD, the only possible entity that could know all
about the universe, ie, have infinite knowledge about a structure that is infinite.
God is an all knowing being way beyond out comprehension,
since compared to God we are grossly ignorant. That's because we are finite beings,
not infinite ones.
The knowledge of the universe requires a brain of infinite size.
I have no way of knowing if God or whatever deity people choose to have care
jack**** about me or yourself,
and on numerous occasions I have proved to myself at least that prayer does not
work.
Work instead of prayer probably is more useful.
But to a person dying of cancer, prayer could be everything.

I guess I could be called an atheist by some, but I reckon there's something out
there a lot more
powerful and wondrous than a thousand million Mr Smarters gathered together, or the
same number of
myselfs or anyone else.

But I did hear gathering of six concert harpists gathered together for a sunday
concert
and although I know its total BS, I reckoned that I must not sin again because if I
do I risk
not being allowed into Heaven, and that's place I wanna go, merely because the
music is so beautiful,
and I had heard what seemed to come from heaven at that concert, and I wanna get up
There to hear more
later. If I actually think about it logically, I doubt I will be around at all
after death, I'll just not be,
and just be un-alive, a dead weight of useless meat and bone, and soul-less, since
there is no evidence
to lead me to believe anyone has a soul.

But I can enjoy silly mythology rather like the Greeks enjoyed theirs, and
civilizations before and since have done
simply because there was no other story which gave mirth to our days of struggles.

The God of the bible bashers does not and cannot exist for me.
The merciless Allah who dictates terror for the infidel is a meaningless item.
The 300 Hindu gods don't inspire my sense of truth either.
Budha does nothing for me.

But there is much we can learn that is useful for out survival from the teachings
of all the faiths.

I have known some wonderful "atheists" and wonderful religious people.
There are some real arsoles amoung commercial people; you'd think people pedling
tobacco
would see the trouble they cause, and find employment elsewhere. But if it wasn't
for the
worshippers of the dollar then where would you be? Up that creek without a paddle
my friend.

I look at the stars at night and think "....some darn thing is out there......dunno
exactly what......"

Patrick Turner.






  #37   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Jack Crenshaw
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phil **** OFF

Patrick Turner wrote:
Better that you would moan and groan about your rich countries apathy to and
treatment of the suffering of millions
rather than focus on the mainly self inflicted suffering of America's peoples.


Patrick, I'm not sure just how we got off onto a litany of what's wrong
with America. But from conversations we've had before, you might recall
that I don't much appreciate foreigners who seem intent on telling us
everything that's wrong with us. There's a certain saying about motes
and eyes?



I wouldn't tell a foreigner what his country's foriegn policy should be without
expecting to get some flak.
My own country's actions could easily be criticised. All governments of all persuasions
will always leave us with sometghing to complain about and routinely they ignore at
least 1/2 the population
unless the 1/2 turns into a kick ass 3/4 of the population, and then they start
listening.

Don't get me wrong, I ain't perfect, and nor is anyone else.


Here's a plan: Why don't we get the US to pull all its troops out of
_EVERYWHERE_. We'll pull them out of airbases and other installations,
in all countries, including yours. You're on your own. We'll pull all
the missiles (including anti-missiles) out that are protecting Israel,
South Korea, Europe, Mexico, Canada, Taiwan, and yes, the UK. From now
on, you're on your own.

We'll turn the Middle easy back over to Saddam, Hamas, Khaddafi, the
PLO, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Hezballah,and all the rest. We'll
forget even trying to save people in such countries as Sudan and
Somalia. While we're at it, let's see if we can somehow resurrect Idi
Amin and Pol Pot.

We won't need the UN anymore, so we can stop paying all those millions
to support them. Ditto for Palestine. With all that money we _DON'T_
spend trying to protect the world, think how much more wealthy we'll be.
We'll just pull into our own borders and enjoy the ice cream. With
all those soldiers to spare, we could surely, finally, secure our borders.

I hear a lot, especially on the Internet, about what an evil country the
US is, always throwing our weight around. Those people tend to clam up
whenever there's a natural (or unnatural) disaster like an earthquake,
famine, flood, volcano, tsunami, or outbreak of disease. Perhaps you've
forgotten, it was in an attempt to end the famine and genocide in
Somalia, that cost us 19 brave men and a couple of helicopters.

Yet, anyone with eyes should surely see that the US is there for people
in need, and provide disaster relief far out of proportion to the
population. From where I sit, the US is the most benevolent society
that exists ... or ever has.


The rate of painful death has been going on since Eve whacked the tempting snake
on the head with a stick,
cooked it up and served it to Adam to eat. Adam said, "Dis good tucker Eve, ****
dat apple ****".
Neither Satan or God were happy with the experiment of allowing apes to evolve
into ****ing people,
and have been inflicting **** that happens ever since a very long time ago.


So what's your solution? Maybe we should all drink the Kool-Aid, to
make the world safer for opossums?



I don't have a solution; certianly not a "final solution", which was tried in Germany;
its tempting though, round up the arsoles and gas 'em.

The trouble is that religion and politics make arsoles out of a lotta ppl who just ain't
arsoles.

I only have a vote, which is next to SFA.


One day soon, **** will happen to each of us to lead us to our conversion of us
and of our spirit
into a puff of smoke, oil prices permitting.

We start out being a smile on our parents faces, and finish up nothing except an
urnful of dust.
Very few people are remembered for their time between smiles and dust.

To be famous for longer than 15 minutes takes an exponentially greater amount of
effort
by the after-smile non-dust person, although some only become famous after
becoming dust.
Just imagine if there was a meaning to life! The universe is infinite, and its
knowledge is infinite.
Yet we have those who think they know everything, and would thus be God if they
did.
Leave 'em alone to argue with each other.



Get a life. Get out of your chair, walk away from the computer, and do
something useful.


Nah, let them sit there jabbing at their keyboards all bloody day.

Think of the terrible damage they would cause away from their computer!!


You know what? I think you're absolutely right. Let 'em go with it. It
keeps them off the street.

Jack



And outa jail and outa hospital, saving the national expenditure of taxpayer funds
on wardens and doctors abd psychiatrists.......

Patrick Turner.

Do whatever, just don't try to bend my nose.


Ok, deal. Now, will you please be more careful of mine?

Jack
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