[Clubsprint]

I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file. I don't want to
tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression) just the overall
level. If someone could make a suggestion it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mark

[PanHandler]

"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file. I don't want
to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression) just the
overall level. If someone could make a suggestion it would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks

I'm interested too. I have over 42,000 mp3's now, and I have to ride levels
constantly.
Joe Arnold

[GlowingBlueMist]

"flatfish" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:01:44 -0500, PanHandler wrote:


"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file. I don't want
to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression) just the
overall level. If someone could make a suggestion it would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks

I'm interested too. I have over 42,000 mp3's now, and I have to ride
levels
constantly.
Joe Arnold

Sony Soundforge Batch Converter will apply anything you like to whatever
files you specify..

You might like to give MP3Gain a try. It can be found at
http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ and it's freeware.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Clubsprint" wrote in message..

I don't want to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression)
just the overall level.


This part ain't gonna happen unless you find a piece of software that
lowers the level of every file to match the quietest.

[Julian]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 23:25:12 -0500, "GlowingBlueMist"
wrote:

"flatfish" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:01:44 -0500, PanHandler wrote:


"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file. I don't want
to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression) just the
overall level. If someone could make a suggestion it would be greatly
appreciated.
You might like to give MP3Gain a try. It can be found at
http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ and it's freeware.

I advocate MP3 Gain. It writes code to the header to tell your player
to play hotter or cooler but doesn't re-write any audio data. You can
remove the gain adjustment at any time non destructively. If you put
it in another group it can be a different gain in that group.

I'm not sure which players support it, but I think most do.

Julian

[Julian]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:50:13 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
wrote:


"Clubsprint" wrote in message..

I don't want to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression)
just the overall level.


This part ain't gonna happen unless you find a piece of software that
lowers the level of every file to match the quietest.

That's what MP3 Gain does.

Julian

[Mr.T]

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:FG1sg.2528$F8.493@trnddc02...
I don't want to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression)
just the overall level.

This part ain't gonna happen unless you find a piece of software that
lowers the level of every file to match the quietest.

Not necessarily so. He doesn't specify peak or average level, so simply
adjusting all files to peak at 0dB Dfs, will match the overall *peak*
levels, and is what most normalising programs do.

MrT.

[Julian]

On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 17:22:07 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:


"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:FG1sg.2528$F8.493@trnddc02...
I don't want to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression)
just the overall level.

This part ain't gonna happen unless you find a piece of software that
lowers the level of every file to match the quietest.

Not necessarily so. He doesn't specify peak or average level, so simply
adjusting all files to peak at 0dB Dfs, will match the overall *peak*
levels, and is what most normalising programs do.

That isn't good enough. A tune with a low average to peak ratio will
still sound too quiet. MP3 Gain looks at average to peak ratios and
analyzes the perceived quietest track of a group and then lowers the
other to produce a similar volume.

Julian

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:25:09 -0700, Julian
wrote:

That isn't good enough. A tune with a low average to peak ratio will
still sound too quiet. MP3 Gain looks at average to peak ratios and
analyzes the perceived quietest track of a group and then lowers the
other to produce a similar volume.

How does it cope with a group of files including an acoustic ballad
and a hyper-compressed rock song?

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 17:22:07 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:

Not necessarily so. He doesn't specify peak or average level, so simply
adjusting all files to peak at 0dB Dfs, will match the overall *peak*
levels, and is what most normalising programs do.

Unfortunately some, particularly those in consumer-level programs, try
to raise the average level. This can cause unpleasant effects,
including clipping.

[NRen2k5]

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:25:09 -0700, Julian
wrote:

That isn't good enough. A tune with a low average to peak ratio will
still sound too quiet. MP3 Gain looks at average to peak ratios and
analyzes the perceived quietest track of a group and then lowers the
other to produce a similar volume.

How does it cope with a group of files including an acoustic ballad
and a hyper-compressed rock song?

It'll probably end up making the hyper-compressed rock song pretty quiet.

--
http://pcguyelevated.ytmnd.com/

[Julian]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:39:20 +0100, Laurence Payne
lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

Unfortunately some, particularly those in consumer-level programs, try
to raise the average level. This can cause unpleasant effects,
including clipping.

Pretty sure this one doesn't clip. There's a lot of information at
the web site. I recommend looking at it. Been a while since I read
it but seemed like a well thought out approach at that time.

Julian

[NRen2k5]

flatfish wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:01:44 -0500, PanHandler wrote:

"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file. I don't want
to tamper with the dynamics of the file (ie no compression) just the
overall level. If someone could make a suggestion it would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks
I'm interested too. I have over 42,000 mp3's now, and I have to ride levels
constantly.
Joe Arnold

Sony Soundforge Batch Converter will apply anything you like to whatever
files you specify..

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.

--
http://pcguyelevated.ytmnd.com/

[Julian]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 15:57:40 -0400, NRen2k5 wrote:

flatfish wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:01:44 -0500, PanHandler wrote:

"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file.oe Arnold

Sony Soundforge Batch Converter will apply anything you like to whatever
files you specify..

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.

That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.

Julian

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Julian" wrote in message ...
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 15:57:40 -0400, NRen2k5 wrote:

flatfish wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:01:44 -0500, PanHandler wrote:

"Clubsprint" wrote in message
...
I have a large number of MP3 files that I'm streaming and I have an issue
with the variance in the overall level of the files. I'm looking for some
software that I can batch adjust the max level on each file.oe Arnold

Sony Soundforge Batch Converter will apply anything you like to whatever
files you specify..

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.

That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.

Julian


Thanks for your comments on this software... I'll have look at it, though I
don't do a lot of MP3-ing.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[Pete Rissler]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:25:09 -0700, Julian
wrote:

That isn't good enough. A tune with a low average to peak ratio will
still sound too quiet. MP3 Gain looks at average to peak ratios and
analyzes the perceived quietest track of a group and then lowers the
other to produce a similar volume.

How does it cope with a group of files including an acoustic ballad
and a hyper-compressed rock song?

Mp3Gain has three ways of adjusting the gain; 1 is called Album Gain, this
will change the average gain of the album to a certain user defined level
(default is 89 db) so some songs will be higher than 89 and some lower but
the average for the album will be about 89 this maintains the relative
volume between songs; 2 is track gain, this will increase or decrease all
songs to a user defined gain, so all songs are at the same volume; 3 is just
adding a constant gain to all songs, no analysis is done.

For the above example, using album gain you can increase the volume of both
songs but the relative volume between songs will remain the same, using
track gain the volume of both songs will be about the same. Setting the
gain too high will cause clipping. MP3Gain will show you which songs will
be clipped prior to applying the adjustment.

Pete

[Laurence Payne]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:42:20 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.

That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.

Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing. Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message ...
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:42:20 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.

That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.

Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing. Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range - but even if it works by lowering... you have another
valid 'yuk' point.

DM

[dadiOH]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[dadiOH]

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the softer
songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the loudest song. For
example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the softer
songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the loudest song. For
example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

But what does that do? They are just numbers, and they have only the
most tangential relationship to the perceived playing of the track -
which is what this is all about.

Incidentally the maths is all off too. You can't do this by adding
numbers, you have to multiply.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

What you're forgetting here is that the MP3 is not just PCM data with
absolute scalar values for every sample. There is a "volume" field in
the header which tells the playback application how loud to play the
thing. By tweaking THAT, you can turn down the level of a track without
affecting the actual resolution (except of course the resolution is still
limited by the converters at the final playback, and if the gain is lowered
digitally, that will be reduced... still, that's a marginal problem at
best).

The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce]

On 10 Jul 2006 10:56:07 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

What you're forgetting here is that the MP3 is not just PCM data with
absolute scalar values for every sample. There is a "volume" field in
the header which tells the playback application how loud to play the
thing. By tweaking THAT, you can turn down the level of a track without
affecting the actual resolution (except of course the resolution is still
limited by the converters at the final playback, and if the gain is lowered
digitally, that will be reduced... still, that's a marginal problem at
best).

The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.
--scott

So.........?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as the
loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to hell.

What you're forgetting here is that the MP3 is not just PCM data with
absolute scalar values for every sample. There is a "volume" field in
the header which tells the playback application how loud to play the
thing. By tweaking THAT, you can turn down the level of a track without
affecting the actual resolution (except of course the resolution is still
limited by the converters at the final playback, and if the gain is lowered
digitally, that will be reduced... still, that's a marginal problem at
best).

The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

That's interesting Scott.

Is there a handy application to edit the header ?

Graham

[NRen2k5]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message ...
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:42:20 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.
That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.
Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing.

It doesn't throw away bits. What it does is it changes "global gain"
values. Doing so is totally lossless and reversible.

Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

So?

And you don't have to reduce them to the level of the quietest. What you
can do is apply "track gain" so that all the songs are a certain volume,
for example 89dB, and then use "constant gain" to bring the volume of
every song up or down by the same amount.

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range - but even if it works by lowering... you have another
valid 'yuk' point.

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

--
http://pcguyelevated.ytmnd.com/

[NRen2k5]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

No.

It's the music industry that wants their *songs* to play as loudly as
possible, so they use dynamic compression to be able to make them as
loud as possible on CD.

You would never *want* to turn *up* the gain on these files, since it
will make the already-existing clipping even worse, but you can do it.

--
http://pcguyelevated.ytmnd.com/

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"NRen2k5" wrote in message ...
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message ...
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:42:20 -0700, Julian
wrote:

Like ANY other sound editor. Unfortunately, it will re-encode your
MP3's, which is a BAD THING.
That's why to use MP3 Gain. It does NOT re-encode your MP3's. It
only writes a volume play back level to the header which can be
removed at any time.
Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing.

It doesn't throw away bits. What it does is it changes "global gain"
values. Doing so is totally lossless and reversible.

Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

So?

And you don't have to reduce them to the level of the quietest. What you
can do is apply "track gain" so that all the songs are a certain volume,
for example 89dB, and then use "constant gain" to bring the volume of
every song up or down by the same amount.

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range - but even if it works by lowering... you have another
valid 'yuk' point.

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

If everything works downward in comparison to the reference... but if
gain is increased (especially on material where peaks are likely already
near FS) limiting will have to come into play, altering dynamics.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"NRen2k5" wrote in message ...
Scott Dorsey wrote:
The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

No.

It's the music industry that wants their *songs* to play as loudly as
possible, so they use dynamic compression to be able to make them as
loud as possible on CD.

You would never *want* to turn *up* the gain on these files, since it
will make the already-existing clipping even worse, but you can do it.

Thus altering dynamic range even further, or living with massive distortion,
the latter of which I'd hope most products would not consider as an option.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
NRen2k5 wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

No.

It's the music industry that wants their *songs* to play as loudly as
possible, so they use dynamic compression to be able to make them as
loud as possible on CD.

That's a different issue altogether. That's not an encoding issue.

With CD, where you have no encoding, the only way to make playback louder
is with abusive compression.

With MP3, you have the field available to you when you encode it.

Back in the LP days, it was all manual, and you had to put "PLAY THIS
RECORD AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE" in the liner notes.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the softer
songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the loudest song. For
example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

Which won't make it sound as loud as the compressed song.

[Laurence Payne]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:19:24 -0400, NRen2k5 wrote:

Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing.

It doesn't throw away bits. What it does is it changes "global gain"
values. Doing so is totally lossless and reversible.

But, while it is happening, the system is throwing away bits.


Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

So?

You don't see that as undesirable?


And you don't have to reduce them to the level of the quietest. What you
can do is apply "track gain" so that all the songs are a certain volume,
for example 89dB, and then use "constant gain" to bring the volume of
every song up or down by the same amount.

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range - but even if it works by lowering... you have another
valid 'yuk' point.

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

Of course it does. The noise floor of the playback system isn't going
to go away. Reducing signal level will bring peaks nearer to the
noise floor, i.e. reduce dynamic range.

[Scott Dorsey]

Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

Of course it does. The noise floor of the playback system isn't going
to go away. Reducing signal level will bring peaks nearer to the
noise floor, i.e. reduce dynamic range.

Yes, but it's adjusting the level right before the converters, not earlier
in the chain. So your only worry is the noise floor of the converters
themselves. And frankly, this being MP3, you have far more serious things
to worry about than that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Eeyore wrote:
Kludge writes:

The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

That's interesting Scott.

Is there a handy application to edit the header ?

The MP3Gain application that started out this horrible thread will allow
you to adjust that field. I don't know an easy way to edit the other
header info although of course there are always binary editing tools like
git and emacs to allow you to do it by hand.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[dadiOH]

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without
modifying dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as
the loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to
hell.

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

But what does that do? They are just numbers, and they have only the
most tangential relationship to the perceived playing of the track -
which is what this is all about.

The playing of the track involves (after decoding to wave) interpretation of
numbers - that's all a file is - in a meaningful way to produce the desired
sound; in this case, sound.

What the numbers do in this case is to tell the player to increase the
volume of each sound by a specific amount.
______________

Incidentally the maths is all off too. You can't do this by adding
numbers, you have to multiply.

No, one can certainly do binary addition.

Things may have changed but in the not too distant past there were no op
codes for multiplication. Doesn't matter one way or the other because
multiplication is nothing more than repetitive addition.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[dadiOH]

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

Which won't make it sound as loud as the compressed song.

Did you read this part?...

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[NRen2k5]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
"NRen2k5" wrote in message ...
Scott Dorsey wrote:
The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.
No.

It's the music industry that wants their *songs* to play as loudly as
possible, so they use dynamic compression to be able to make them as
loud as possible on CD.

You would never *want* to turn *up* the gain on these files, since it
will make the already-existing clipping even worse, but you can do it.

Thus altering dynamic range even further, or living with massive distortion,
the latter of which I'd hope most products would not consider as an option.

No, dynamic range is not altered at all.

The massive distortion can be undone. MP3 doesn't really have a noise
ceiling or floor like PCM does. The signal peaks don't actually get
clipped in the MP3 itself... just in the playback. So this "clipping"
distortion can be fixed by just reducing the gain of the MP3.

--
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[Mr.T]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Back in the LP days, it was all manual, and you had to put "PLAY THIS
RECORD AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE" in the liner notes.

????

LP's used compression the same as most CD's. In fact the need for
compression was greater because of the limited dynamic range. Just because
mastering engineers have lost their way these days is irrelevant to the
technical necessities.
Not only that, but with LP you *could* push the peak cutting levels higher
than RIAA recommendations as well. It's *impossible* to push peak CD levels
higher than Dfs though.

MrT.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message ...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Back in the LP days, it was all manual, and you had to put "PLAY THIS
RECORD AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE" in the liner notes.


????

LP's used compression the same as most CD's. In fact the need for
compression was greater because of the limited dynamic range. Just because
mastering engineers have lost their way these days is irrelevant to the
technical necessities.
Not only that, but with LP you *could* push the peak cutting levels higher
than RIAA recommendations as well. It's *impossible* to push peak CD levels
higher than Dfs though.

MrT.


Careful, Mr. T.... you're preaching to the only guy on the r.a.p. who is
still making LP record masters in his basement. ;-)

[Lorin David Schultz]

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

if gain is increased (especially on material where peaks are likely
already near FS) limiting will have to come into play, altering
dynamics.


True, if we accept that everything will have peaks at or near full
scale. Much to my surprise, there are some older tracks in my
collection that do NOT hit full scale, even on peaks. Part of that
whole dated concept of "albums" where dynamic expression extended from
track to track.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

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