Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have
never
used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't
want on
Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason
for
it. What is your point?

My point is that ebay sales are not a valid measure of an amp's quality.

Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering,
after
all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees

So then why are USAcoustics amps nothing like ESX amps?

Because there was no cloning done?

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering,
after
all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees

So then why are USAcoustics amps nothing like ESX amps?

I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it is
cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that an
amp sells for. Example, last week I seen a non-working Orion 500GS sell for
over $300, that's about the same price of a brand new 500watt Orion on Ebay.
Here is another one, a used Mcintosh MC 431M at $550 (auction is still open),
you wont see a used 400 watt Kenwood sell for that price.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have
never
used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't
want on
Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason
for
it. What is your point?

My point is that ebay sales are not a valid measure of an amp's quality.

Because there was no cloning done?

Well, if it's all about parts and the engineering team as you suggest, then
those two amps should be identical, right?

I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
is
cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
an
amp sells for.

No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them. Ditto for Infinity speakers versus, say, Macrom. Are you
then going to make the claim that Kenwood and Infinity make better equipment
than ESX and Macrom?

Example, last week I seen a non-working Orion 500GS sell for
over $300,

Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it. But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.

that's about the same price of a brand new 500watt Orion on Ebay.
Here is another one, a used Mcintosh MC 431M at $550 (auction is still
open),
you wont see a used 400 watt Kenwood sell for that price.

And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...

You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
is
cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
an
amp sells for.

No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.



A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.





Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.

That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.




But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.

So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.



And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...

Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?

You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh,
Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be
joking.

You're obviously having trouble understanding the entire point I'm trying to
make. I'll assume that I haven't been clear enough then.

Let's recap. Your assertion is that the price of an amp on ebay tells us
how good an amp is. I disagree with that. I provided several examples (of
both amps and speakers) that DON'T follow that trend.

Although name recognition and stereotypes do in fact play a major role in
the price (but have very little to do with the question at hand - quality),
reputation and specs also play an important role. That would explain why
McIntosh amps tend to go for more than Kenwood amps. But sometimes it's
totally screwy. When you've got Alpine amps going for as much as the
equivalent Helix amps, then you know that popularity/recognition is also
contributing to the price.

All in all, you can't say that an amplifier or speaker is as good as the
price tag on it!

*sigh* ... PPI (the company) was STARTED by a group of people that had a
previous relationship with Orion. So what? Orion was strongly influenced
by the original Fosgate (pre-Rockford) amp designs too, does that make
ANYTHING else you've written about this stuff true? No, it doesn't...
just let it go, wouldya?

Look, if you were to say something like: the a/d/s/ EQ300 was the exact
same unit electrically as the Orion DEQ30, or that Orion speaker systems
used a/d/s/ tooled parts once upon a time, or even that ADST once
shipped a/d/s/ powered subs with Orion woofers in them, I wouldn't be
wasting my time debating with you. Those things are all true... but what
you've stated about Orion and PPI amps being clones or closely related
at the point in time you referenced is a load of crap. At least two
people that are in a position to know better, one of whom has zero
vested interest currently in any of the brands in question, have told
you so. Why are you still talking?

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after
all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:


I guess that you missed gold's post.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint.


From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that


takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%?

Sounds like you should be bitching at Directed Canada, not me. They are
an independent firm that distributes and markets our products in Canada
- and a really great bunch of guys too. However, I have nothing to do
with the way they market our security products in Canada so barking at
me about it is truly a waste of time. I will say however that if your
local dealers want to walk away from doing business with the largest,
most successful vehicle security company in the world in favor of buying
Canadian-produced product that doesn't have an import tariff - nice free
trade policy there, by the way - there's little I can do about it and
good luck to them. The support program is not ours either, so be more
careful when you say things like "DEI warranty support sucks" - you're
slandering the wrong company. DEI is an abbreviation of Directed
Electronics, Inc. - once again, that's us, not the company you're
talking about.

On the rest of the Orion/PPI stuff, give it up - you're wrong, and
making a fool of yourself arguing the point with John and me, not to
mention Paul and others that don't work for any of the companies in
question but that are far more expert on the product than you. Trying to
use a guy that said otherwise but was proven wrong in half his comments
almost immediately - with supporting evidence int he form of parts data
sheets mind you - is just about as stupid as engaging John and me on the
subject in the first place. He's clearly either worked for one or more
of these companies back in the day, and I am currently the product
manager for all the brands in question. You really think you have some
inside scoop on this stuff that we don't? Please...

Let me repeat: PPI gear is not cloned, never has been cloned, and as
long as I have anything to say about it - and I do, that's my job
currently - never will be. Same comments can be taken as gospel for
Orion and a/d/s/, not to mention Directed Audio.

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

Care to point out just how much of it was wrong, you're not really telling me
much. I thought you made it clear in your posts that you don't know jack about
their products of the yesteryears. I'm not saying that PPI gear is bad, well
other then their new junk compared to their old gear. PPI gear is cloned in
more ways then one, but that has been pointed out already in the above posts.
That's my opinion along with DEI alarms being overpriced in features and in
quality,comparing the my 300+ Viper to my $100 Audiovox alarm and I'm sticking
to my opinion. Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. That should make things clear
enough for you. Oh, and DEI warranty support sucks ass in Canada, in Ontario
to be exact, replacement parts are hard to get, and your products have too
high of a markup (not sure what that means). These are some of the reasons I
was given when I asked two local dealers why they dropped DEI and related
products such as Orion and PPI from their lineup. Sounds like poor marketing
in this area, What do you think JD?

In article , John Durbin
wrote:


Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models
grasshopper.

JD

clearly, you are not familar with the concept of "there's an ass for
every seat"

it's what makes Ebay so successful, but your argument about those
auctions somehow being relevant to your argument about cloning has holes
in it big enough to drive a bus through,

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it is
cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that an
amp sells for. Example, last week I seen a non-working Orion 500GS sell for
over $300, that's about the same price of a brand new 500watt Orion on Ebay.
Here is another one, a used Mcintosh MC 431M at $550 (auction is still open),
you wont see a used 400 watt Kenwood sell for that price.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:


Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have


never


used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't


want on


Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason


for


it. What is your point?


My point is that ebay sales are not a valid measure of an amp's quality.

who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine?

I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is.

and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD
tired of your noise floor around here

Captain Howdy wrote:

You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:


I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it


is


cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that


an


amp sells for.


No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.





A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.








Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.



That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.






But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.



So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.




And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...



Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?

Mark, you could have stopped with the first 5 words:

"You're obviously having trouble understanding"

JD
chump should have that as a epitaph

Mark Zarella wrote:

You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh,


Audison,


Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be


joking.

You're obviously having trouble understanding the entire point I'm trying to
make. I'll assume that I haven't been clear enough then.

Let's recap. Your assertion is that the price of an amp on ebay tells us
how good an amp is. I disagree with that. I provided several examples (of
both amps and speakers) that DON'T follow that trend.

Although name recognition and stereotypes do in fact play a major role in
the price (but have very little to do with the question at hand - quality),
reputation and specs also play an important role. That would explain why
McIntosh amps tend to go for more than Kenwood amps. But sometimes it's
totally screwy. When you've got Alpine amps going for as much as the
equivalent Helix amps, then you know that popularity/recognition is also
contributing to the price.

All in all, you can't say that an amplifier or speaker is as good as the
price tag on it!

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:41:58 GMT, John Durbin
wrote:

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who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine?

I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is.

Actually, I've found that eBay ending prices are pretty
consistent, so I don't know how much of it is "about finding the right
sucker". Unless you put an obscenely-high "Buy It Now" price on an
item, and a sucker bites, the final ballpark price on the item is
representative of what *several* people are willing to pay, not just
one sucker.
I recently bought three PPI Art Series amps on eBay, an
A300.2, and A600.2, and an A1200.2. I paid more for them than their
modern equivalents cost, but there were several factors involved. My
bidding was based on PPI's good reputation for amps of the vintage, my
own prior good experiences with one of their older 4100AM amps, and
the fact that I specifically wanted the ART graphics.
In short, I believe that eBay ending prices *are*
representative of an amp's "value", if you allow "value" to include
collectibility, rarity, and nostalgia, and not just the engineering
worth of the amp.
After all, the Mcintosh 150-watt home tube amps routinely go
for more than $3000, even though there are superior modern amps for
less money. Some people just prefer the looks, sound, and
construction of the older Mac amps.

Scott Gardner





and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD
tired of your noise floor around here

Captain Howdy wrote:

You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:


I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it


is


cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that


an


amp sells for.


No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.





A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.








Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.



That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.






But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.



So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.




And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...



Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?





--------------020208010501090102060205
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html
head
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who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine? br
br
I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is. br
br
and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!br
br
JDbr
tired of your noise floor around herebr
br
Captain Howdy wrote:br
blockquote type="cite"
"
pre wrap=""You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >/a, "Mark Zarella"
a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "< >/a wrote:
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""is
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""an
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""amp sells for.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----


A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.



/pre
pre wrap=""!----
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.




/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.
/pre
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pre wrap=""!----
So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?
/pre
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--------------020208010501090102060205--

Agreed, but two things: one, none of that proves his erroneous statement
about the amps in question being clones; two, nostalgia is wonderfully
blind at times.

I have been in this business for 26 years, and I too have fond memories
of products that I worked with and owned "back in the day" ... the
difference is, I can also appreciate how much better much of today's
product is. Yes, I own two sets of a/d/s/ 2002 powered speakers and the
Nakamichi cassette player that went with them. Hell, I even bought a
secondhand Advent 201A simply because it was the first deck I ever
owned, and learned how to make good tapes with. Doesn't mean I did or
would pay a fortune for them on ebay or automatically consider them
technically superior to a modern day CD player or component speaker
system. I had a car stuffed full of Fosgate amps - PR2100's - that at
the time I was totally thrilled by. Today, I know those amps for what
they we temperamental and less than stable. I'd still like to own one
again just because, but it would not likely get into a car I drove
regularly.

JD

Scott Gardner wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:41:58 GMT, John Durbin
wrote:



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who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine?

I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is.



Actually, I've found that eBay ending prices are pretty
consistent, so I don't know how much of it is "about finding the right
sucker". Unless you put an obscenely-high "Buy It Now" price on an
item, and a sucker bites, the final ballpark price on the item is
representative of what *several* people are willing to pay, not just
one sucker.
I recently bought three PPI Art Series amps on eBay, an
A300.2, and A600.2, and an A1200.2. I paid more for them than their
modern equivalents cost, but there were several factors involved. My
bidding was based on PPI's good reputation for amps of the vintage, my
own prior good experiences with one of their older 4100AM amps, and
the fact that I specifically wanted the ART graphics.
In short, I believe that eBay ending prices *are*
representative of an amp's "value", if you allow "value" to include
collectibility, rarity, and nostalgia, and not just the engineering
worth of the amp.
After all, the Mcintosh 150-watt home tube amps routinely go
for more than $3000, even though there are superior modern amps for
less money. Some people just prefer the looks, sound, and
construction of the older Mac amps.

Scott Gardner







and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD
tired of your noise floor around here

Captain Howdy wrote:



You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:




I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it




is




cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that




an




amp sells for.




No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.





A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.










Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.




That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.








But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.




So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.






And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...




Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?








--------------020208010501090102060205
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
html
head
meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"
title/title
/head
body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"
who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine? br
br
I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is. br
br
and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!br
br
JDbr
tired of your noise floor around herebr
br
Captain Howdy wrote:br
blockquote type="cite"
"
pre wrap=""You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >/a, "Mark Zarella"
a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "< >/a wrote:
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""is
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""an
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""amp sells for.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----


A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.



/pre
pre wrap=""!----
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.




/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""
/pre
/blockquote
/blockquote
/body
/html

--------------020208010501090102060205--

Sorry, wasn't trying to take sides with that post. For the
record, I was the one that originally described the DIFFERENCES
between the Orion and PPI heatsinks in painstaking detail back when
this whole "cloning" foolishness thread started.
As for my amps, I feel that the series two Art amps hold their
own with just about anything modern, as far as sound quality and
reliability go. That being said, I think modern amps are a better
*value*, because in addition to having good sound, there's a lot more
flexibility with built-in signal processing, there are a lot more
low-impedance-capable amps out there, the power ratings are up and the
prices are down. But, I'm one of the 2% or so that prefers my
amplifiers to amplifiy and nothing else. There are enough of us out
there that like the Art Series amplifiers that the going prices are
pretty stable on eBay. So unless we're *all* suckers, I still say
that eBay is an accurate tool for finding out what the market will
bear, and not just about finding a "sucker" to dump something on. You
notice that no one on eBay gets into a bidding war over an old
Rockwood amp, for example.

Scott Gardner


On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 06:36:29 GMT, John Durbin
wrote:

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Agreed, but two things: one, none of that proves his erroneous statement
about the amps in question being clones; two, nostalgia is wonderfully
blind at times.

I have been in this business for 26 years, and I too have fond memories
of products that I worked with and owned "back in the day" ... the
difference is, I can also appreciate how much better much of today's
product is. Yes, I own two sets of a/d/s/ 2002 powered speakers and the
Nakamichi cassette player that went with them. Hell, I even bought a
secondhand Advent 201A simply because it was the first deck I ever
owned, and learned how to make good tapes with. Doesn't mean I did or
would pay a fortune for them on ebay or automatically consider them
technically superior to a modern day CD player or component speaker
system. I had a car stuffed full of Fosgate amps - PR2100's - that at
the time I was totally thrilled by. Today, I know those amps for what
they we temperamental and less than stable. I'd still like to own one
again just because, but it would not likely get into a car I drove
regularly.

JD

Scott Gardner wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:41:58 GMT, John Durbin
wrote:



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020208010501090102060205
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine?

I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is.



Actually, I've found that eBay ending prices are pretty
consistent, so I don't know how much of it is "about finding the right
sucker". Unless you put an obscenely-high "Buy It Now" price on an
item, and a sucker bites, the final ballpark price on the item is
representative of what *several* people are willing to pay, not just
one sucker.
I recently bought three PPI Art Series amps on eBay, an
A300.2, and A600.2, and an A1200.2. I paid more for them than their
modern equivalents cost, but there were several factors involved. My
bidding was based on PPI's good reputation for amps of the vintage, my
own prior good experiences with one of their older 4100AM amps, and
the fact that I specifically wanted the ART graphics.
In short, I believe that eBay ending prices *are*
representative of an amp's "value", if you allow "value" to include
collectibility, rarity, and nostalgia, and not just the engineering
worth of the amp.
After all, the Mcintosh 150-watt home tube amps routinely go
for more than $3000, even though there are superior modern amps for
less money. Some people just prefer the looks, sound, and
construction of the older Mac amps.

Scott Gardner







and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD
tired of your noise floor around here

Captain Howdy wrote:



You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:




I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it




is




cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that




an




amp sells for.




No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.





A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.










Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.




That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.








But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.




So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.






And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...




Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?








--------------020208010501090102060205
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
html
head
meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"
title/title
/head
body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"
who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine? br
br
I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is. br
br
and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!br
br
JDbr
tired of your noise floor around herebr
br
Captain Howdy wrote:br
blockquote type="cite"
t"
pre wrap=""You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >/a, "Mark Zarella"
a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "< >/a wrote:
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""is
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""an
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""amp sells for.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----


A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.



/pre
pre wrap=""!----
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.




/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?
/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""
/pre
/blockquote
/blockquote
/body
/html

--------------020208010501090102060205--







--------------020503040604000909040900
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
html
head
meta http-equiv="Cotent-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"
title/title
/head
body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"
Agreed, but two things: one, none of that proves his erroneous
statement about the amps in question being clones; two, nostalgia is
wonderfully blind at times.br
br
I have been in this business for 26 years, and I too have fond memories
of products that I worked with and owned "back in the day" ... the
difference is, I can also appreciate how much better much of today's
product is. Yes, I own two sets of a/d/s/ 2002 powered speakers and the
Nakamichi cassette player that went with them. Hell, I even bought a
secondhand Advent 201A simply because it was the first deck I ever
owned, and learned how to make good tapes with. Doesn't mean I did or
would pay a fortune for them on ebay or automatically consider them
technically superior to a modern day CD player or component speaker
system. I had a car stuffed full of Fosgate amps - PR2100's - that at
the time I was totally thrilled by. Today, I know those amps for what
they we temperamental and less than stable. I'd still like to own
one again just because, but it would not likely get into a car I drove
regularly. br
br
JDbr
br
Scott Gardner wrote:br
blockquote type="cite" "
pre wrap=""On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:41:58 GMT, John Durbin a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "<jdurbin1@san .rr.com>/a
wrote:

/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------020208010501090102060205
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine?

I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is.
/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
Actually, I've found that eBay ending prices are pretty
consistent, so I don't know how much of it is "about finding the right
sucker". Unless you put an obscenely-high "Buy It Now" price on an
item, and a sucker bites, the final ballpark price on the item is
representative of what *several* people are willing to pay, not just
one sucker.
I recently bought three PPI Art Series amps on eBay, an
A300.2, and A600.2, and an A1200.2. I paid more for them than their
modern equivalents cost, but there were several factors involved. My
bidding was based on PPI's good reputation for amps of the vintage, my
own prior good experiences with one of their older 4100AM amps, and
the fact that I specifically wanted the ART graphics.
In short, I believe that eBay ending prices *are*
representative of an amp's "value", if you allow "value" to include
collectibility, rarity, and nostalgia, and not just the engineering
worth of the amp.
After all, the Mcintosh 150-watt home tube amps routinely go
for more than $3000, even though there are superior modern amps for
less money. Some people just prefer the looks, sound, and
construction of the older Mac amps.

Scott Gardner





/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD
tired of your noise floor around here

Captain Howdy wrote:

/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,

Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" >/a, "Mark Zarella"
a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "< >/a wrote:


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""is


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""an


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""amp sells for.


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""

A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.








/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.






/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.




/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...


/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?


/pre
blockquote type="cite"
pre wrap=""

/pre
/blockquote
/blockquote
pre wrap=""--------------020208010501090102060205
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
<title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine? <br>
<br>
I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring
in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then
throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right
sucker, not about what the product's real value is. <br>
<br>
and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!<br>
<br>
JD<br>
tired of your noise floor around here<br>
<br>
Captain Howdy wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite=a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" "/a>
<pre wrap="">You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison,
Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking.

In article <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ></a>, "Mark Zarella"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ""mai & gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">is
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">an
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">amp sells for.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->


A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to
find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people
heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words.



</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to
it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes
close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier,
This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have
seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around
15 years old.




</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed
about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself.


</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are
you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the
relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new
stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------020208010501090102060205--

/pre
/blockquote
pre wrap=""!----
/pre
/blockquote
/body
/html

--------------020503040604000909040900--

That's because we are on the topic of " Checkout Ebay and you'll see what
people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones." I'm
glad you noticed though.

and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD

In article , John Durbin wrote:
Sounds like you should be bitching at Directed Canada, not me. They are
an independent firm that distributes and markets our products in Canada
- and a really great bunch of guys too. However, I have nothing to do
with the way they market our security products in Canada so barking at
me about it is truly a waste of time.

Unfortunately things like this do not reflect on just marketing or a company
in part, but they do reflect on the company in whole. What company hired this
independent firm that distributes and markets your products in Canada?





The support program is not ours either, so be more
careful when you say things like "DEI warranty support sucks" - you're
slandering the wrong company. DEI is an abbreviation of Directed
Electronics, Inc. - once again, that's us, not the company you're
talking about.

Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement, so where do you get
slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why they no
longer carry DEI products. This independent firm that distributes and markets
your products in Canada represents who by doing so?

Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement,


Yes there is. You said DEI sucks when it's not DEI that you should be mad
at, but the marketing firm in Canada that's distributing their product.


so where do you get
slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why
they no
longer carry DEI products.

Then they're not very intelligent people and probably won't be in business
too much longer if they can't tell the difference between DEI and a DEI
distributor.



Paul Vina

In article GTjGb.469321$275.1364767@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina" wrote:
Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement,


Yes there is. You said DEI sucks when it's not DEI that you should be mad
at, but the marketing firm in Canada that's distributing their product.


so where do you get
slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why
they no longer carry DEI products.


You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.




Then they're not very intelligent people and probably won't be in business
too much longer if they can't tell the difference between DEI and a DEI
distributor.

In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,
even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?


As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough to
go without question.

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers
had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.


In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,


Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to
do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these
warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or
manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal
with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk
into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?


Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough
to
go without question.


You'd think so.




Paul Vina

No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth.

If that is true. Lots of people are familiar with Pyramid and Jensen, and Pyle
amps, we both know that these amps are way over rated in power handling. Take
any of the above amps and compare it with a 400watt McIntosh, If people
truly did not have the right amount of experience or knowledge to purchase
amplifiers the out come in this comparison, would be that no one in their
right mind would pay more then $30 for a brand new 400watt McIntosh, simply
because you can buy a brand new 1400watt Pyle amp for $90. If these people
have enough experience to find and use Ebay, I'm sure that they have enough
experience to find and use a google search to find information on any given
amp along with end user reviews. Bottom line is that people tend to only buy
products that they have had some form of experience with, or know someone that
has had a positive experience with that product. 20 years ago things might
have been different, but today information is cheap and very easy to find.


The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.

Check Ebay, you'll see that the ESX Quantum 752 sells for about $50- $75 more
then the Kenwood Kac-929.

No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are
willing
to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers
has
experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that
determination. Nothing can be further from the truth.

If that is true. Lots of people are familiar with Pyramid and Jensen, and
Pyle
amps, we both know that these amps are way over rated in power handling.

Take
any of the above amps and compare it with a 400watt McIntosh, If people
truly did not have the right amount of experience or knowledge to purchase
amplifiers the out come in this comparison, would be that no one in their
right mind would pay more then $30 for a brand new 400watt McIntosh,
simply
because you can buy a brand new 1400watt Pyle amp for $90.

Well, that's usually the only people who buy the Pyle amps. The people who
don't know what they're buying. Or the people who do know what they're
buying but realize what it is.

If these people
have enough experience to find and use Ebay, I'm sure that they have
enough
experience to find and use a google search to find information on any
given
amp along with end user reviews.

Most people aren't willing to put that much research into a purchase.
Myself included, for some things.

Bottom line is that people tend to only buy
products that they have had some form of experience with, or know someone
that
has had a positive experience with that product.

Exactly! And more people have had experience (or know someone who has had
experience or talked to someone on the net) with the Best Buy or Circuit
City amps than ESX amps. Don't you agree?

The fact remains
that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the
equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have
heard of them.

Check Ebay, you'll see that the ESX Quantum 752 sells for about $50- $75
more
then the Kenwood Kac-929.

Recently some people overpaid for a Q752. I was actually one of the bidders
but I didn't go that high. They spent $150 for it. It tends to go for
about $100. I know because I've sold two of them, bought the same two, and
check rather often for ESX amps in general. The main reason I get them (and
certain a/d/s/ amps) is because they're undervalued on ebay. I don't have a
woody for ESX or a/d/s/ in particular.

Also, that Kenwood amp puts out about 1/2 the power of the Q752 if I
remember correctly.

"There is nothing false about my statement"

Yes, there is. You wrote:

"DEI warranty support sucks"

That is not true, nor does your inability to distinguish between DEI
(us) and Directed Canada (our customer) make it true. We do not handle
warranty in Canada, and blind surveys of dealers in the US market score
our warranty support in the low-to-mid 4's (out of a possible 5, 1 being
low and 5 being the best).

By the way, maybe you use a different version of the English language up
there, but how exactly does one "hire" a customer? These guys work for
themselves, not us - hence my use of the term "independent firm". Get it
now?

I'm starting to wonder if you ever argue about something you truly
understand, or just fumble around in the dark like this 24/7...

JD


Captain Howdy wrote:

In article , John Durbin wrote:


Sounds like you should be bitching at Directed Canada, not me. They are
an independent firm that distributes and markets our products in Canada
- and a really great bunch of guys too. However, I have nothing to do
with the way they market our security products in Canada so barking at
me about it is truly a waste of time.



Unfortunately things like this do not reflect on just marketing or a company
in part, but they do reflect on the company in whole. What company hired this
independent firm that distributes and markets your products in Canada?





The support program is not ours either, so be more


careful when you say things like "DEI warranty support sucks" - you're
slandering the wrong company. DEI is an abbreviation of Directed
Electronics, Inc. - once again, that's us, not the company you're
talking about.



Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement, so where do you get
slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why they no
longer carry DEI products. This independent firm that distributes and markets
your products in Canada represents who by doing so?

Is that what the topic is? I thought you were on the topic of "let's see
how many times the Captain can be wrong in the same thread"...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

That's because we are on the topic of " Checkout Ebay and you'll see what
people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones." I'm
glad you noticed though.


and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS
COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@!

JD

Paul,

Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate
program run by the distributor in place.

Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as
microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do...

JD

Paul Vina wrote:

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers


had


to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.




In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.





In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from


retailers.


These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,




Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?




even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to


do


the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these


warranties


as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or


manufacture


contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal


with


someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk


into


a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?




Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.




As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough


to


go without question.




You'd think so.




Paul Vina

And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should definitely be more upset with the distributor.


Paul Vina



"John Durbin" wrote in message ...
Paul,

Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate program run by the distributor in place.

Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do...

JD

Paul Vina wrote:

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers
had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.


In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,


Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to
do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these
warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or
manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal
with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk
into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?


Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough
to
go without question.


You'd think so.




Paul Vina

In article t_oGb.472065$275.1369590@attbi_s53, "Paul Vina" wrote:

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers
had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.


In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.

There you go again, you're total off track. This is not about what I think,
This is about why local dealers dropped DEI products. These are two dealers
that I have talked to personally regarding this issue. None of them said
anything negative about DEI products, they said negative things about their
service/support. This group does not represent that the car audio world my any
means, nor does it apply to the rest of the car audio world. It's a Canadian
support issue.





In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,


Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


This has nothing to do with DEI's warranty or it's length, this is an example
just to give you a better understanding about how warranties work.



even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to
do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these
warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or
manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal
with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk
into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?


Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.

It's totally irrelevant, because the warranty is given by the manufacture and
not the distributor. I don't think that this would be all that hard to
understand.



As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough
to
go without question.


You'd think so.




Paul Vina

And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should =
definitely be more upset with the distributor.



You are as clueless as they come. When I buy a DEI product, I am buying the
product through the retailer and distributor, when a retailer buys a product
he/she buys it through the distributor. But the manufacture is still
responsible to uphold the warranty or to make sure that the warranty is being
upheld by the contracted party. Do I need to spell this out for you Paul?

Paul Vina



"John Durbin" wrote in message =
.. .
Paul,

Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, =
separate program run by the distributor in place.=20

Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as =
microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do...=20

JD

Paul Vina wrote:

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two =
dealers
had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.
=20

In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your =
own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the =
word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs =
out,
=20

Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an =
authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


even though most retailers contract these warranties to other =
companies to
do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these
warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or
manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to =
deal
with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You =
walk
into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did =
some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?
=20

Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since =
that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long =
enough
to
go without question.
=20

You'd think so.




Paul Vina



------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C3CA45.F6F34C80
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in message=20
A=20
=
. rr.com"news:AZqGb.27976=
/A.../DIVPaul,BRBROur=20
warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate =
program=20
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much, when=20
you ship product that has as microscopically small of a true defect =
rate as=20
our alarms do... BRBRJDBRBRPaul Vina wrote:BR
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type=3D"cite"
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/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----had
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""to say. DEI sucks!!! There =
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/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your =
own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the =
word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""In Canada new items are =
sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----retailers.
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""These warranties go into =
affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an =
authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""even though most retailers =
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/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----do
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""the repairs, it is the =
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/PRE
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/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----manufacture
/PRE
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world would anyone want to worry or have to deal
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----with
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""someone else's problems ? =
Let me make this really easy for you. You walk
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----into
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""a shopping mall after a =
cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""As a matter of fact the one =
dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long =
enough
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----to
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""go without question.
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

You'd think so.




Paul Vina


/PRE/BLOCKQUOTE/BLOCKQUOTE/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C3CA45.F6F34C80--

I don't care who handles your warranty or to whom you sell your product to,
nor does the law care. As long as you manufacturer the products in question
you are fully liable for them and their warranty. If you had a independent
firm manufacturing your products in Canada and selling them under the a
different brand name, or even under the name "Directed Canada" separating you
from your Canadian market under the laws of incorporation that would have
been a totally different story. Now go back to sweeping the floor.



In article , John Durbin
wrote:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------060102080902070606020404
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"There is nothing false about my statement"

Yes, there is. You wrote:

"DEI warranty support sucks"

That is not true, nor does your inability to distinguish between DEI
(us) and Directed Canada (our customer) make it true. We do not handle
warranty in Canada, and blind surveys of dealers in the US market score
our warranty support in the low-to-mid 4's (out of a possible 5, 1 being
low and 5 being the best).

By the way, maybe you use a different version of the English language up
there, but how exactly does one "hire" a customer? These guys work for
themselves, not us - hence my use of the term "independent firm". Get it
now?

I'm starting to wonder if you ever argue about something you truly
understand, or just fumble around in the dark like this 24/7...

JD

I don't know about spelling it out for Paul, but you should go check
your facts... warranty laws don't cross national borders.

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should =
definitely be more upset with the distributor.





You are as clueless as they come. When I buy a DEI product, I am buying the
product through the retailer and distributor, when a retailer buys a product
he/she buys it through the distributor. But the manufacture is still
responsible to uphold the warranty or to make sure that the warranty is being
upheld by the contracted party. Do I need to spell this out for you Paul?



Paul Vina



"John Durbin" wrote in message =
. ..
Paul,

Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, =
separate program run by the distributor in place.=20

Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as =
microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do...=20

JD

Paul Vina wrote:

You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two =
dealers
had
to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it.
=20

In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your =
own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the =
word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
retailers.
These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs =
out,
=20

Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an =
authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


even though most retailers contract these warranties to other =
companies to
do
the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these
warranties
as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or
manufacture
contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to =
deal
with
someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You =
walk
into
a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did =
some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?
=20

Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since =
that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long =
enough
to
go without question.
=20

You'd think so.




Paul Vina



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DIV"John Durbin" <A=20
r.com/A> wrote =
in message=20
A=20
=
.rr.com"news:AZqGb.27976=
/A.../DIVPaul,BRBROur=20
warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate =
program=20
run by the distributor in place. BRBRNot that it should matter =
much, when=20
you ship product that has as microscopically small of a true defect =
rate as=20
our alarms do... BRBRJDBRBRPaul Vina wrote:BR
BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmidt_oGb.472065$275.1369590@attbi_s53 =
type=3D"cite"
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""You must of not understood =
my post. I said that this was what two dealers
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----had
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""to say. DEI sucks!!! There =
you go NOW I said it.
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your =
own
opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the =
word
of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world.



/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""In Canada new items are =
sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a
distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----retailers.
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""These warranties go into =
affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out,
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an =
authorized
dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free?


/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""even though most retailers =
contract these warranties to other companies to
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----do
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""the repairs, it is the =
retailer that is responsible to uphold these
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----warranties
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""as is the manufacture and =
not the companies that the retailer or
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----manufacture
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""contracts. So why in the =
world would anyone want to worry or have to deal
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----with
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""someone else's problems ? =
Let me make this really easy for you. You walk
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----into
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""a shopping mall after a =
cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some
cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The
cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself?
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand.


/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""As a matter of fact the one =
dealer in question has been around since that
70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long =
enough
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----to
/PRE
BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"PRE wrap=3D""go without question.
/PRE/BLOCKQUOTEPRE wrap=3D""!----

You'd think so.




Paul Vina


/PRE/BLOCKQUOTE/BLOCKQUOTE/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C3CA45.F6F34C80--

Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade
law as you are about amplifiers...

JD
seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping
the floor with you, frankly

Captain Howdy wrote:

I don't care who handles your warranty or to whom you sell your product to,
nor does the law care. As long as you manufacturer the products in question
you are fully liable for them and their warranty. If you had a independent
firm manufacturing your products in Canada and selling them under the a
different brand name, or even under the name "Directed Canada" separating you
from your Canadian market under the laws of incorporation that would have
been a totally different story. Now go back to sweeping the floor.



In article , John Durbin
wrote:


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"There is nothing false about my statement"

Yes, there is. You wrote:

"DEI warranty support sucks"

That is not true, nor does your inability to distinguish between DEI
(us) and Directed Canada (our customer) make it true. We do not handle
warranty in Canada, and blind surveys of dealers in the US market score
our warranty support in the low-to-mid 4's (out of a possible 5, 1 being
low and 5 being the best).





By the way, maybe you use a different version of the English language up
there, but how exactly does one "hire" a customer? These guys work for
themselves, not us - hence my use of the term "independent firm". Get it
now?

I'm starting to wonder if you ever argue about something you truly
understand, or just fumble around in the dark like this 24/7...

JD

Call the the Federal Trade Commission and ask for the International Division
of Consumer Protection about that, or in Canada call the Competition Bureau,
Industry Canada. You moron



In article , John Durbin
wrote:

I don't know about spelling it out for Paul, but you should go check
your facts... warranty laws don't cross national borders.

Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really are.
The only thing that you know is how to talk out your ass about your products.
Trying to tell people how good your new products are while you openly admitted
that you don't know **** about the products that companies such Orion, PPI and
ADS produced before DEI bought them out. Only a moron would believe anything
that you have to say about DEI related products. We both know that the truth
would be against your best interest.

Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade
law as you are about amplifiers...

JD
seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping
the floor with you, frankly

Sounds like someone's holiday eggnog was spiked pretty hard this holiday
season...

n8



Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really
are.
The only thing that you know is how to talk out your ass about your
products.
Trying to tell people how good your new products are while you openly
admitted
that you don't know **** about the products that companies such Orion, PPI
and
ADS produced before DEI bought them out. Only a moron would believe
anything
that you have to say about DEI related products. We both know that the
truth
would be against your best interest.

Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade
law as you are about amplifiers...

JD
seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping
the floor with you, frankly

But the manufacture is still
responsible to uphold the warranty or to make sure that the warranty is
being
upheld by the contracted party. Do I need to spell this out for you Paul?



Actually JD explained it in his last post. DEI warranties in Canada are
handled by Directed Canada, not DEI. Do I need to spell it out for you?


Paul Vina

If by "season" you mean "since his retarded ass started posting here" then
yes, I agree with you!



Paul Vina




"n8 skow" wrote in message
news:bFNGb.23816$PK3.13253@okepread01...
Sounds like someone's holiday eggnog was spiked pretty hard this holiday
season...

n8



Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really
are.
The only thing that you know is how to talk out your ass about your
products.
Trying to tell people how good your new products are while you openly
admitted
that you don't know **** about the products that companies such Orion,
PPI
and
ADS produced before DEI bought them out. Only a moron would believe
anything
that you have to say about DEI related products. We both know that the
truth
would be against your best interest.

Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade
law as you are about amplifiers...

JD
seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping
the floor with you, frankly

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.

In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What is your point other then being a noob?

Psssst. Captain, its the other way around.

trust me O1Eye is far from a noob, he's done CES reports since I've been on
car audio sites like 97

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have
never
used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't
want on
Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason
for
it. What is your point?



In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones.

Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller.


one reason that Audiobahn sells well on eBay is because it looks pretty,
most people buy car audio comp. based on looks printed specs. when they get
a little knowledge they learn to buy the used McIn amp and not the 1000kws
for $79.95

"Paul Vina" wrote in message
news:t0PGb.481653$275.1379414@attbi_s53...
If by "season" you mean "since his retarded ass started posting here" then
yes, I agree with you!



Paul Vina

PV you have to give him credit many persons have piled on him and he's
standing his position I like that. The best way for him to learn
similarities and differences he needs to see the circuit boards and
layout/heatsink of the amp and the debt will be settled. If any one can put
the pics inside and out of all the amps in question this thread may die