[genericaudioperson]

Hello,

I read Mr. Dorseys posts very carefully, because he is really smart.


If I understand him, he doesn't like shotgun mics all that much and
would try to get away with using a regular hypercardioid instead if
the
circumstance permitted.


I'm not sure what the dividing line is when you have to abandon
"regular" mics and settle for the shotgun. If you don't have a lot
of
ambient noise (like a noisey convention floor or a football game),
is
12 feet of distance too far away for a hypercardioid? (Assuming a
low-
medium volume acoustic source like two acoustic guitars, two vocals,
and a mandolin in a folk song environment). I'm talking about for
sound reinforcement where you are trying to capture the ensemble (and
you can't get the mic much closer).


With things like handheld dynamics, as soon as you are a few feet
from
the microphone, you could practically be screaming and the mic would
barely pick up. At least with a shotgun you know you are going to
get
a lot of audio zoom-in. I'm wondering if something like the Neumann
KM series hypercardioid is only good up to about 5 feet away.


Shotguns seem expensive too. All the industry standard ones seem to
be $1200 and up. But it's a fun idea to think you can really zoom
in on the sound with a shotgun mic.

[Tim Perry]

Shotguns seem expensive too. All the industry standard ones seem to
be $1200 and up.

Get a new or used Audix UEM-81 and give it try. $250 or less in USD.

But it's a fun idea to think you can really zoom
in on the sound with a shotgun mic.

I would not want to do a serious theater job without them. I have yet to
have the luxury of being able to put body mics on an entire cast.

[Richard Crowley]

"genericaudioperson" wrote ...
I read Mr. Dorseys posts very carefully, because he is really smart.
If I understand him, he doesn't like shotgun mics all that much and
would try to get away with using a regular hypercardioid instead if
the circumstance permitted.

Depends A LOT on the circumstances.
Like: indoors or outdoors (or more specifically, are there nearby
surfaces reflecting the undesired, ambient sound)?
Like: Are you micing for recording or for reinforcement?
Like: What is your expectation of quality?
Like: How loud is the source vs. how loud is the ambient you
are trying to eliminate?
Like: How close can you get the mic?
Like: Is a big, long mic a visual problem?
Like: Are the sound sources fixed, or will they wander around?
Like: Do you have the shotgun on a boom with an experienced
operator to keep the mic aimed properly?
Like: Many others.....

I'm not sure what the dividing line is when you have to abandon
"regular" mics and settle for the shotgun. If you don't have a lot
of ambient noise (like a noisey convention floor or a football
game), is 12 feet of distance too far away for a hypercardioid?
(Assuming a low-medium volume acoustic source like two acoustic
guitars, two vocals, and a mandolin in a folk song environment).
I'm talking about for sound reinforcement where you are trying
to capture the ensemble (and you can't get the mic much closer).

I wouldn't even *attempt* to do a reinforcement job if I couldn't
get the microphone (ANY microphone) closer than 12 feet away
from the source(s). Its just crazy on the face of it.

I likely wouldn't even attempt to *record* (without reinforcement)
at that distance an ensemble such as you described. If you can't get
the mic(s) any closer than that, then something is seriously wrong
with your scenario, and shotgun mics aren't going to solve it. I would
think that an actual 12-gauge shotgun would be a more appropriate
tool for planning decent reinforcement in those conditions. :-)

With things like handheld dynamics, as soon as you are a few
feet from the microphone, you could practically be screaming
and the mic would barely pick up.

Quite likely with SOME "handheld dynamics". Your description
sounds like Sure SM57/58 which are not appropriate for most
anything, certainly not reinforcement at a distance. Small-capsule
condensers are more typically used for those kinds of applications,
and used at sensible distances when doing reinforcement.

At least with a shotgun you know you are going to get a lot of
audio zoom-in.

I believe that it has been mentioned in this discussion already that
"shotgun mics" simply don't work that way.

I'm wondering if something like the Neumann KM series hyper-
cardioid is only good up to about 5 feet away.

They might be good for only half that distance. Or for twice that
distance. You can't just pick numbers out of the air like that
without discussing *actual cases*.

Shotguns seem expensive too. All the industry standard ones
seem to be $1200 and up.

The people over in news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound who
use shotgun mics (and hypers, also) every day would think that a
$1200 shotgun is a rather low-end. They would expect a decent
shotgun mic to cost 2x-3x that much. And then they would expect
to use it only outdoors (or in a humongous room), and likely only
for speech and not for musical instruments.

But it's a fun idea to think you can really zoom in on the sound
with a shotgun mic.

Fun idea, perhaps. But not in the real world.

[genericaudioperson]

Thank you for your insights. I learned a lot. This is helping me to
adjust and improve my approach. I found it interesting that you find
12 feet to be a rather undesirable far-away distance to mic. I've
found that too, but I thought it was maybe because I wasn't skilled or
knowledgeable enough.

I thought Decca trees would have to be pretty far away, which is why I
thought you could mic from 12 feet away. Aren't those something like 5
Neumann M50's mounted on a frame high above the orchestra? If a Decca
tree is really only 5 feet away, then I've learned something. Not
that I know anything about Decca trees, but I thought they were kind
of far away.

I also thought a shotgun mic worked like a telephoto lens on a
camera. I thought they were analogs of each other. But I must be
misunderstanding shotguns. I thought they provided "zoom".

Just trying to un-stupid myself. Thanks!

[Richard Crowley]

"genericaudioperson" wrote ...
Thank you for your insights. I learned a lot. This is helping me to
adjust and improve my approach. I found it interesting that you find
12 feet to be a rather undesirable far-away distance to mic. I've
found that too, but I thought it was maybe because I wasn't skilled or
knowledgeable enough.

You asked about reinforcement specifically. 12 feet is effectively
unworkable for reinforcement in most places. Your direct vs.
ambient ratio may be even lower than 1:1 at those distances,
giving your effectively zero gain before feedback and destroying
any notion of reinforcement.

I thought Decca trees would have to be pretty far away, which is why I
thought you could mic from 12 feet away. Aren't those something like 5
Neumann M50's mounted on a frame high above the orchestra? If a Decca
tree is really only 5 feet away, then I've learned something. Not
that I know anything about Decca trees, but I thought they were kind
of far away.

Decca trees are NOT used for reinforcement, but for recording
where there is NO amplified/reinforced sound present. That is
HOW they can put them much farther away.

As for WHY they put them much farther away (as you correctly note)...
When we are recording, and especially when we are recording
something that depends on the ambient space for its overall sound
(like a symphony orchestra, or even a string quartet or a brass
quintet, or an opera singer, or a pipe organ, etc etc.), we position
the recording microphone(s) at a position and distance that captures
exactly the right combination of direct vs. ambient sound. Selction
and positioning the micropones *for recording* sometimes takes
many hours of experimentation while the orchestra (or whatever)
rehearses in the performing space.

vs. when you are micing *for reinforcement*, you are typically
going for a balanced "view" of all the sound sources (voices,
instruments) while concurrently maximizing the direct vs. ambient
ratio to minimize feedback from the reinforcement speakers.

I also thought a shotgun mic worked like a telephoto lens on a
camera. I thought they were analogs of each other. But I must be
misunderstanding shotguns. I thought they provided "zoom".

As you have learned, they work by simply trying to reduce the
off-axis sound significantly more than your average cardioid mic.
They don't provide any more "reach" toward the front.

And they are not very effective indoors because the ambient sound
bounces around the room and becomes incoherent, and impossible
to "subtract" from the forward sound, so the shotgun mics don't do
as well. And add that to the poor off-axis response, and they are
worse for indoor sound reinforcement than ordinary cardiod mics.

PS: It is considered good netiquette to quote at least a bit of the
message you are responding to (along with the name of the author)
so that we can follow your conversation. Most of us are NOT
reading this newsgroup on the Gooooooogle Groups web-
based portal, so we only see NEW messages, not ALL messages
like Goooooogle shows.

[Scott Dorsey]

genericaudioperson wrote:
Thank you for your insights. I learned a lot. This is helping me to
adjust and improve my approach. I found it interesting that you find
12 feet to be a rather undesirable far-away distance to mic. I've
found that too, but I thought it was maybe because I wasn't skilled or
knowledgeable enough.

What are you recording and what do you want it to sound like?

12 feet is far away for a pop vocal in a bright room. It's too close
for an orchestra in any room.

I thought Decca trees would have to be pretty far away, which is why I
thought you could mic from 12 feet away. Aren't those something like 5
Neumann M50's mounted on a frame high above the orchestra? If a Decca
tree is really only 5 feet away, then I've learned something. Not
that I know anything about Decca trees, but I thought they were kind
of far away.

When you are miking the room and not the instrument (which is what you
do with stereo miking), the distance from the source to the microphones
depends entirely on the room. ORTF, X-Y, Decca tree, they all are in
this category.

I also thought a shotgun mic worked like a telephoto lens on a
camera. I thought they were analogs of each other. But I must be
misunderstanding shotguns. I thought they provided "zoom".

It does not. A lot of people seem to think so, and they spend a lot
of money for them, and they are disappointed.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:45:34 -0500, genericaudioperson wrote
(in article
):

I thought Decca trees would have to be pretty far away, which is why I
thought you could mic from 12 feet away. Aren't those something like 5
Neumann M50's mounted on a frame high above the orchestra? If a Decca tree
is really only 5 feet away, then I've learned something. Not that I know
anything about Decca trees, but I thought they were kind of far away.

Different thing. With Decca Trees, you are frequently in the reverberant
field, depending on how you deploy them.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA