[Geoff]

Allen Corneau wrote:
On 5/9/07 7:34 AM, in article
, "Mogens V."
wrote:



Not knowing enough about various ADC's, it sounds like the analog
front end in those was _designed_ for that effect, to accomodate for
incorrect level settings, which you then explore purposefully.
I've read that some Apogee converters have soft limiters, but your
explanation doesn't sound like talking about the same behaviour?

Yes, some ADC's have built-in "soft clip" features designed to act
like an analog device going into saturation before actual digital
clipping occurs. Some work pretty well, others not so well.


In fact an analogue section of the device 'going into saturation", or some
such behaviour.

To be concise one does need to specifiy whether we are taliking about a
whole ADC device (as in box), or an actual ADC converter chip.

geoff.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com
On May 7, 5:50 pm, Randy Yates wrote:
writes:
2. Retreat to a community that isolates them from the
harsh judgement of physical reality and allows their
opinions to take on undeserved value and credence,
in contradiction to the way the physical world works.
There are names for such communities, like "church,"
or "on-line forums" and "chat rooms," and the like.

You forgot "Stereophile Magazine" ...

No, I didn't, but there are FAR worse offenders in the
print media.

In general I speak of those groups that simply disallow
ANY dissenting opinion or skeptial enquiry. There are on-
line forums, for example, that simply do not allow any
dissenting opinions regarding cables and such.

Pretty much sounds like Stereophile.


They had a lapse at HE2005, but otherwise the've done a pretty good job of
keeping the faith.

[Arny Krueger]

"Randy Yates" wrote in message

(Schöön Martin) writes:
[...]
BTW, Nyquist came from very humble conditions in rural
Sweden.

Fascinating!

Confirmed:

http://www.ieee.org/web/aboutus/hist...y/nyquist.html

"Harry Nyquist (A'39-M'47-F'52) was born on 7 February 1889 in Nilsby,
Sweden. He attended the University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, from 1912
to 1915 and received the B.S. and M.S. degrees in electrical engineering in
1914 and 1915, respectively."

[Chris Morriss]

In message , Geoff
writes
Allen Corneau wrote:
On 5/9/07 7:34 AM, in article
, "Mogens V."
wrote:



Not knowing enough about various ADC's, it sounds like the analog
front end in those was _designed_ for that effect, to accomodate for
incorrect level settings, which you then explore purposefully.
I've read that some Apogee converters have soft limiters, but your
explanation doesn't sound like talking about the same behaviour?

Yes, some ADC's have built-in "soft clip" features designed to act
like an analog device going into saturation before actual digital
clipping occurs. Some work pretty well, others not so well.


In fact an analogue section of the device 'going into saturation", or some
such behaviour.

To be concise one does need to specifiy whether we are taliking about a
whole ADC device (as in box), or an actual ADC converter chip.

geoff.


Some ADC chips have horrendous problems if driven into saturation. I
have designed in Cirrus CS4340 24-bit ADCs into a very large UK
public-address / voice-alarm system and had to add soft-clippers in
front of the ADCs. When overdriven the CS4340 first digitally clips as
you would expect, but if driven harder, the digital output suddenly
phase-reverses with the output suddenly transitioning from max +ve to
max -ve (and vice-versa). The resulting noise isn't really wanted!
--
Chris Morriss

[Geoff]

Allen Corneau wrote:

Of course it depends on the ADC. A lot of mid to lower end ADC's will
crap out immediately upon hitting close to 0dBFS, others (like the
HEDD) can take up to a couple of dB over 0dBFS and the analog
circuitry in front of the converter chip acts like a very clean
limiter. Just my observation with the tools I use.


If you read through the thousands of posts about this topic (volume
wars, hyper compression and loss of dynamics) on some of the
mastering forums you'll see that most of us don't like it, but it's
the world we have to make a living in.


As far as dynamics is concerned , you can have your limiting level many dB
below0dBFS (so the DAC isn't a factor) and STILL have just as squashed and
loud a signal. Just turn the amp up to compensate to the absolute level.


geoff

[Serge Auckland]

Geoff wrote:
Allen Corneau wrote:
Of course it depends on the ADC. A lot of mid to lower end ADC's will
crap out immediately upon hitting close to 0dBFS, others (like the
HEDD) can take up to a couple of dB over 0dBFS and the analog
circuitry in front of the converter chip acts like a very clean
limiter. Just my observation with the tools I use.


If you read through the thousands of posts about this topic (volume
wars, hyper compression and loss of dynamics) on some of the
mastering forums you'll see that most of us don't like it, but it's
the world we have to make a living in.


As far as dynamics is concerned , you can have your limiting level many dB
below0dBFS (so the DAC isn't a factor) and STILL have just as squashed and
loud a signal. Just turn the amp up to compensate to the absolute level.


geoff


But that's the whole point! Producers want it LOUD so you don't have to
change the volume from the previous equally LOUD disc.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Mogens V.]

Serge Auckland wrote:
Geoff wrote:

Allen Corneau wrote:

Of course it depends on the ADC. A lot of mid to lower end ADC's will
crap out immediately upon hitting close to 0dBFS, others (like the
HEDD) can take up to a couple of dB over 0dBFS and the analog
circuitry in front of the converter chip acts like a very clean
limiter. Just my observation with the tools I use.


If you read through the thousands of posts about this topic (volume
wars, hyper compression and loss of dynamics) on some of the
mastering forums you'll see that most of us don't like it, but it's
the world we have to make a living in.

As far as dynamics is concerned , you can have your limiting level
many dB below0dBFS (so the DAC isn't a factor) and STILL have just as
squashed and loud a signal. Just turn the amp up to compensate to the
absolute level.

geoff

But that's the whole point! Producers want it LOUD so you don't have to
change the volume from the previous equally LOUD disc.

You don't think it's to make the album _appear_ as loud as, or louder
than, the competition, for pure market share reasons?

--
Kind regards,
Mogens V.

[Serge Auckland]

Mogens V. wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote:
Geoff wrote:

Allen Corneau wrote:

Of course it depends on the ADC. A lot of mid to lower end ADC's will
crap out immediately upon hitting close to 0dBFS, others (like the
HEDD) can take up to a couple of dB over 0dBFS and the analog
circuitry in front of the converter chip acts like a very clean
limiter. Just my observation with the tools I use.


If you read through the thousands of posts about this topic (volume
wars, hyper compression and loss of dynamics) on some of the
mastering forums you'll see that most of us don't like it, but it's
the world we have to make a living in.

As far as dynamics is concerned , you can have your limiting level
many dB below0dBFS (so the DAC isn't a factor) and STILL have just as
squashed and loud a signal. Just turn the amp up to compensate to the
absolute level.

geoff

But that's the whole point! Producers want it LOUD so you don't have
to change the volume from the previous equally LOUD disc.

You don't think it's to make the album _appear_ as loud as, or louder
than, the competition, for pure market share reasons?

Of course. That's the only! reason. No producer wants their record to be
quieter.......

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Geoff]

Mogens V. wrote:


But that's the whole point! Producers want it LOUD so you don't have
to change the volume from the previous equally LOUD disc.

You don't think it's to make the album _appear_ as loud as, or louder
than, the competition, for pure market share reasons?

It can sound JUST as loud getting nowhere near 0BFS. 0dBFS isn't the point,
it's the high average rms level.

geoff

geoff

[Serge Auckland]

Geoff wrote:
Mogens V. wrote:

But that's the whole point! Producers want it LOUD so you don't have
to change the volume from the previous equally LOUD disc.
You don't think it's to make the album _appear_ as loud as, or louder
than, the competition, for pure market share reasons?

It can sound JUST as loud getting nowhere near 0BFS. 0dBFS isn't the point,
it's the high average rms level.

geoff

geoff


This is true, but when it's already squashed to buggery, you can get
another dB or two of loudness by letting it clip.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Mr.T]

"Geoff" wrote in message
...
It can sound JUST as loud getting nowhere near 0BFS. 0dBFS isn't the
point,
it's the high average rms level.

Crap, a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at 0dBfs will always sound louder
than a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at -3dBfs or less!
So we get the former. (sometimes they do normalise to -0.2dB fs instead, to
make it look like it's not all clipped to buggery of course, but -0.2dB is
certainly "near 0dBfs" now isn't it? :-)

MrT.

[Geoff]

Mr.T wrote:
"Geoff" wrote in message
...
It can sound JUST as loud getting nowhere near 0BFS. 0dBFS isn't
the point, it's the high average rms level.

Crap, a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at 0dBfs will always sound
louder than a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at -3dBfs or less!

Not if you twist you vol knob 5 degrees - it will sound identically loud and
compresssed.

The point I am trying to make is that the flat top need have nothing
whatsoever to do with 0dBFS clipping and DACs etc. You can do it all quite
happily with compression, limiting, and threshholds (thrashholds ?). Do it
at -10dBFS, then normalise it to -0.2 ; no overdriven DAC. Same effect.

geoff

[Serge Auckland]

Geoff wrote:
Mr.T wrote:
"Geoff" wrote in message
...
It can sound JUST as loud getting nowhere near 0BFS. 0dBFS isn't
the point, it's the high average rms level.
Crap, a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at 0dBfs will always sound
louder than a CD with 3dB dynamic range peaking at -3dBfs or less!

Not if you twist you vol knob 5 degrees - it will sound identically loud and
compresssed.

The point I am trying to make is that the flat top need have nothing
whatsoever to do with 0dBFS clipping and DACs etc. You can do it all quite
happily with compression, limiting, and threshholds (thrashholds ?). Do it
at -10dBFS, then normalise it to -0.2 ; no overdriven DAC. Same effect.

geoff



Yes but the point here is that producers want their CDs to sound as loud
as their competitors' *without* having to turn the volume up as punters
are lazy. Once a CD is compressed to remove any vestige of dynamic
range, the only way you can get it louder still is to clip. FM radio
learned this trick years ago, and CD mastering is doing it too.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Mr.T]

"Geoff" wrote in message
...
Not if you twist you vol knob 5 degrees - it will sound identically loud
and
compresssed.

The usual idea is to not require any knobs to be twisted by the listener.

The point I am trying to make is that the flat top need have nothing
whatsoever to do with 0dBFS clipping and DACs etc. You can do it all
quite
happily with compression, limiting, and threshholds (thrashholds ?). Do
it
at -10dBFS, then normalise it to -0.2 ; no overdriven DAC. Same effect.

Of course, IF you normalise to -0.2dB as is often the case.
The point was simply made that a particular DAC had peak limiting in built
that he found satisfactory. I wouldn't do it that way myself, but you can
only find what sounds best to yourself, by experimentation.

MrT.

[Randy Yates]

Serge Auckland writes:
[...]

This situation is the audio equivalent of aids - everyone's screwed
everyone else (out for all the loudness they can get) and now the
music itself is in jeopardy.
--
% Randy Yates % "With time with what you've learned,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % they'll kiss the ground you walk
%%% 919-577-9882 % upon."
%%%% % '21st Century Man', *Time*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr