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mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 27th 06, 08:54 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)

hello everybody,
a few weeks ago i asked here for some advice about recording a live jazz
trio with singer.
Thanks again to Thomas, Nate and Scott for their helpful advice.

things got a bit complicated at the gig, musicians arrived with their
instruments 15 minutes before the start of the show and i had to record
a real piano instead of the digital piano which i was expecting.
So there was not much time for a soundcheck or trying things out.

I'm now trying to get a usable mix out of the tracks i have.
Problematic tracks in my opinion are the two Piano tracks:
I'm missing the lower strings, they are hard to hear.
The kick drum is nearly not hearable, only when it was hit hard it's
hearable over the OH mikes.
The double-bass didnt have a pickup, but a big-condenser mike below the
bridge, which was ok. The additional U87 i used perhaps 1 ft away is not
really usable. Since the stage was very small, there is more drums and
piano than Bass on the U87.

I did a rough mix of one song and it would be great to get some feedback.
I'm not sure if I already overcompressed the individual tracks?
I had some problems dealing with the dynamics, i used some compression
and some manual gain-riding.
The vocal could perhaps also need some more presence?
Here is the link. Thanks for any feedback.

Chris

http://www.wabisabimusic.de/livemix
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  #2  
Old February 27th 06, 10:10 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)

It really isnt that bad - the drums are clear enough and as for the kick,
that's jazz for ya, it's normal. The bass seems defined enough, but i would
try to balance out the piano a little louder. As for the bottom of it, if
you can get some out of track then fine, but if it messes with other
intruments (as live micing can do) then its cool too. The vocal needs some
help. Try rolling off some lower mids and see if you can get her to fit in
the room with everyone else. She's too upfront and needs some verb help,
preferrably something that is small like the club it was performed in.
Since we're talking about a live jazz performance I would use VERY little
compression. But over all its not too shabby.


"Chris Hermann" > wrote in message
...
> hello everybody,
> a few weeks ago i asked here for some advice about recording a live jazz
> trio with singer.
> Thanks again to Thomas, Nate and Scott for their helpful advice.
>
> things got a bit complicated at the gig, musicians arrived with their
> instruments 15 minutes before the start of the show and i had to record a
> real piano instead of the digital piano which i was expecting.
> So there was not much time for a soundcheck or trying things out.
>
> I'm now trying to get a usable mix out of the tracks i have.
> Problematic tracks in my opinion are the two Piano tracks:
> I'm missing the lower strings, they are hard to hear.
> The kick drum is nearly not hearable, only when it was hit hard it's
> hearable over the OH mikes.
> The double-bass didnt have a pickup, but a big-condenser mike below the
> bridge, which was ok. The additional U87 i used perhaps 1 ft away is not
> really usable. Since the stage was very small, there is more drums and
> piano than Bass on the U87.
>
> I did a rough mix of one song and it would be great to get some feedback.
> I'm not sure if I already overcompressed the individual tracks?
> I had some problems dealing with the dynamics, i used some compression and
> some manual gain-riding.
> The vocal could perhaps also need some more presence?
> Here is the link. Thanks for any feedback.
>
> Chris
>
> http://www.wabisabimusic.de/livemix



  #3  
Old February 27th 06, 10:34 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)

In article >, Chris Hermann > wrote:
>
>I'm now trying to get a usable mix out of the tracks i have.
>Problematic tracks in my opinion are the two Piano tracks:
>I'm missing the lower strings, they are hard to hear.


Is the piano important? Were there piano solos, or pieces in which the
piano was the fixture of the arrangement?

>The kick drum is nearly not hearable, only when it was hit hard it's
>hearable over the OH mikes.


Is the kick drum important? It usually isn't in jazz... in fact, it's
often not used much at all. I wouldn't worry about that.

>The double-bass didnt have a pickup, but a big-condenser mike below the
>bridge, which was ok. The additional U87 i used perhaps 1 ft away is not
>really usable. Since the stage was very small, there is more drums and
>piano than Bass on the U87.


Okay, but your mix is lacking drums and piano! If you need to get your
piano sound by bringing up the bass mike and EQing the low end out a
little bit, that's okay.

>I did a rough mix of one song and it would be great to get some feedback.
>I'm not sure if I already overcompressed the individual tracks?
>I had some problems dealing with the dynamics, i used some compression
>and some manual gain-riding.


In general, I think people tend to overdo this for jazz. The dynamics
are part of the music and they're supposed to be wide.

>The vocal could perhaps also need some more presence?


I don't have any web access this week but I will check it out when I am
back on a machine with graphics and sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #4  
Old February 28th 06, 12:10 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz DrumKit)

Iain Fraser schrieb:

> The bass seems defined enough, but i would
> try to balance out the piano a little louder. As for the bottom of it, if
> you can get some out of track then fine, but if it messes with other
> intruments (as live micing can do) then its cool too.

i think the bottom is very low in volume compared to the rest of the
piano, working with an eq on it resulted in an for my opinion more
unnatural overall piano sound.
Somehow there is almost no eq on the whole mix. I didn't like what it
did to the sound, but could be that it needs some more time and work to
get it right
> The vocal needs some
> help.

yes i agree with that

Try rolling off some lower mids and see if you can get her to fit in
> the room with everyone else. She's too upfront and needs some verb help,
> preferrably something that is small like the club it was performed in.

I will give this a try.

> Since we're talking about a live jazz performance I would use VERY little
> compression. But over all its not too shabby.


do you mean less as there already is?

thanks
chris

>

  #5  
Old February 28th 06, 12:18 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz DrumKit)

Hello Scott
>
> Is the piano important?

At least i think so, at least he's playing a lot of the time solo.
Were there piano solos, or pieces in which the
> piano was the fixture of the arrangement?

as i already wrote, i think the piano player is together with the singer
the soloist. (dont know if this is the right word)
>
>
> Is the kick drum important? It usually isn't in jazz... in fact, it's
> often not used much at all. I wouldn't worry about that.

after reading the posts i think i'm fine with the kick drum.
>
>> The double-bass didnt have a pickup, but a big-condenser mike below the
>> bridge, which was ok. The additional U87 i used perhaps 1 ft away is not
>> really usable. Since the stage was very small, there is more drums and
>> piano than Bass on the U87.

>
> Okay, but your mix is lacking drums and piano! If you need to get your
> piano sound by bringing up the bass mike and EQing the low end out a
> little bit, that's okay.

unfortunately the bass-player was on the side of the piano with the
higher strings and i'm not getting any sound of the piano bass or
bassdrum on the mike. It's more like a room mike with distant sounding
bass, piano and drums.


> In general, I think people tend to overdo this for jazz. The dynamics
> are part of the music and they're supposed to be wide.

i'm thinking about how wide it should be, and how can i find the right
measure. (it's probably also a matter of taste)

>> The vocal could perhaps also need some more presence?

>
> I don't have any web access this week but I will check it out when I am
> back on a machine with graphics and sound.

that would be nice.

thanks

chris
  #6  
Old February 28th 06, 12:58 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz DrumKit)

In article >, Chris Hermann > wrote:
>> Is the piano important?

>At least i think so, at least he's playing a lot of the time solo.
>Were there piano solos, or pieces in which the
>> piano was the fixture of the arrangement?

>as i already wrote, i think the piano player is together with the singer
> the soloist. (dont know if this is the right word)


If the piano is playing behind the singer, it's not as important as the
singer is. If the piano is just doubling the vocal part, you don't need
much of it there. The singer is what is important in that case.

If the piano is playing fills between verses, it's more important then.
But when the singer is singing, nothing else is more important than the
singer.

>>> The double-bass didnt have a pickup, but a big-condenser mike below the
>>> bridge, which was ok. The additional U87 i used perhaps 1 ft away is not
>>> really usable. Since the stage was very small, there is more drums and
>>> piano than Bass on the U87.

>>
>> Okay, but your mix is lacking drums and piano! If you need to get your
>> piano sound by bringing up the bass mike and EQing the low end out a
>> little bit, that's okay.

>unfortunately the bass-player was on the side of the piano with the
>higher strings and i'm not getting any sound of the piano bass or
>bassdrum on the mike. It's more like a room mike with distant sounding
>bass, piano and drums.


Okay, that's still a useful thing to have. Not as useful as piano spots,
but still useful. If the bass is doubling the left hand on the piano,
though, having a good bass feed can make up for not having a good piano
spot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #7  
Old February 28th 06, 05:37 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)


"Iain Fraser" > wrote in message
...
> It really isnt that bad - the drums are clear enough and as for the kick,
> that's jazz for ya, it's normal. The bass seems defined enough, but i
> would try to balance out the piano a little louder. As for the bottom of
> it, if you can get some out of track then fine, but if it messes with
> other intruments (as live micing can do) then its cool too. The vocal
> needs some help. Try rolling off some lower mids and see if you can get
> her to fit in the room with everyone else. She's too upfront and needs
> some verb help, preferrably something that is small like the club it was
> performed in. Since we're talking about a live jazz performance I would
> use VERY little compression. But over all its not too shabby.
>


Chris, thanks for posting the recording. It's a good idea and think I'll do
the same with stuff im working on. Looks like tyou've got some great
responses too! I am pretty new at this stuff so disclaimer done:
I too am listening at work on some dinky little computer speakers (which is
possibly better than at home-see my recent post on monitoring). The
recording sounds nice to me, like that live sound but agree with above post
that the voice is just a little up front and sounds a little like in a booth
and not on the stage with the other players. I think the vocal should be
somewhat up front for the song but maybe blend just a bit more.

-alan


  #8  
Old February 28th 06, 03:14 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
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Default mixing live jazz recording (Earlier Thread Recording Jazz Drum Kit)

"Chris Hermann" > wrote in message



> Problematic tracks in my opinion are the two Piano tracks:
> I'm missing the lower strings, they are hard to hear.


I have a grand piano that I've been recording about 50 times a year for
maybe 3 years now. In addition to overall micing, I have two mics on it that
I consider to be lifesavers.

(1) An old Shure SM91 PZM on the underside of the lid over the middle of the
strings.

(2) A SD cardioid (MXL 603) on a short stand on the floor, pointing up at
the far end of the underside of the piano.

The lid is usually kept closed or on the shortest stick.

They record opposite sides of the sounding-board so the PZM has a
reverse-polarity adaptor on it, as the majority of the sound outside the
piano comes off the bottom due to the no-stick, or shortest-stick propping
of the lid.

By mixing these mics and the far-field mics, and with some farily heavy eq,
I can mix up a large number of different takes on piano sound, many of which
are in some sense "natural".

PZMs inside the box have a reputation for being harsh, but IME the real
problem is a lack of warmth. The Kawai grand *wants* about 20 dB Q=0.5 @
200 Hz to be warm close up or inside. Then the inside is dry for contrast
while the outside mic has a bit of anacoustic guitar like-warmth.



 




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