Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs,
as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin
with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed
every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at
PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along
with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from
Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you
get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a
single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John
Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like
Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an
Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of
the fact that they were made by the same people.

I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this.
A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for
Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH
saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This
handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original
people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The
biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle
quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM
regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am
pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a
gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were
both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers
made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in
the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power
supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious
effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because".

  #82   Report Post  
OldOneEye
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outloo
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amp
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Jua
-
OldOneEy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...threadid=16757

  #83   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

What is your point other then being a noob?

In article m, OldOneEye
wrote:
It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Juan

  #84   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

What is your point other then being a noob?

Psssst. Captain, its the other way around.

  #85   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.

In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What is your point other then being a noob?


Psssst. Captain, its the other way around.



  #86   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD

OldOneEye wrote:

It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Juan
--
OldOneEye
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=167571




  #87   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was
there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those
who were there at the beginning of PPI. Those very same people that you
say became PPI from ORION also were from OHM TECH that did Rockford-Fosgate
shop work. By your way of thinking, PPI should also look like RF
amplifiers. Or failing that you must also believe that ORION "knocked-off"
RF amplifiers of that era. And they did. Square with Fins. You should
check your dimensions more carefully and read what I said. The Internals
of a PPI amplifier were nothing like that of an ORION...NOTHING AT ALL!
They did start completely fresh. In fact, the Mechanical Engineer at Orion
stayed at ORION and PPI hired a new person as their ME. I believe that
only one Audio Engineer that was Originally at OHM TECH left ORION to work
at PPI. I know him very, very well and he would tell you that the
amplifiers were quite dissimilar. Different Power Supply, different output
section, etc. Yeah, the outsides "looked" similar, square with fins.

You somehow seem to believe that all that were at ORION were cleft in two
and became 2 exact copies. One to stay behind at ORION and one to leave to
form PPI. That is not the case. It took some time for PPI to make new
contacts, and to find sources of raw materials, recruit employees, etc.

On another note, had PPI stolen from ORION any intellectual property, then
they would have been sued into oblivion by ORION. Remember, ORION had
about a 2 year head start. They had capital and profits. Why did they not
get sued by ORION? It was because they were completely different. GET IT!
PPI was in business for 17 years before going into decline. That says
something.

John Andreen

Captain Howdy wrote:

This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock
offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created
Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt
that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and
started totally fresh at
PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers
along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already
had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building
amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could
not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies
as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI
amplifiers looked like
Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an
Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware
of the fact that they were made by the same people.


  #88   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that
hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but
not in a cohesive way. Only thing I saw there that I am still curious
about is the full PWM going that far back with PPI - seems to me they
made loosely regulated amps early on, and on other occasions throughout
the history of the brand. For example, when I was an Orion dealer back
in 87/88, we also dabbled in PPI amps and processors, around the period
when they had models like the 2075, and I seem to recall an asymmetric 4
channel model called the 4030 or something like that. I don't recall
those pieces having the extra transformer you'd expect from a fully
regulated design. In the PCX family, only the larger models are fully
regulated - the smaller ones are loosely regulated, i.e. "adaptive PWM
power supply" as Marketing calls it :-)

JD

John Andreen wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know
they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire
shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are
extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You
clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I
do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing
the conditions at ADST when we acquired them.

As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies
produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion
design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about
were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if
you ware arguing in his favor on that point.

JD




Mr Durbin,

I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this.
A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for
Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH
saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This
handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original
people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The
biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle
quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM
regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am
pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a
gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were
both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers
made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in
the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power
supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious
effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because".

PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power
play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created EXTANT
amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of
operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the
building.

PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your
speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce
products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their
heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion
dies were always purchased outright.

Does this help?

John Andreen





  #89   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

that's the guy...

JD

John Andreen wrote:

John,

Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate. If
so, He is quite the Audio Engineer.

John Andreen



  #90   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

It's always been amazing to me how much variety, creativity, and
ingenuity is scattered through the history of car audio by the people
that started in that one "little" part of the country. Quite a cauldron
of invention...

JD

John Andreen wrote:

You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was
there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those
who were there at the beginning of PPI. Those very same people that you
say became PPI from ORION also were from OHM TECH that did Rockford-Fosgate
shop work. By your way of thinking, PPI should also look like RF
amplifiers. Or failing that you must also believe that ORION "knocked-off"
RF amplifiers of that era. And they did. Square with Fins. You should
check your dimensions more carefully and read what I said. The Internals
of a PPI amplifier were nothing like that of an ORION...NOTHING AT ALL!
They did start completely fresh. In fact, the Mechanical Engineer at Orion
stayed at ORION and PPI hired a new person as their ME. I believe that
only one Audio Engineer that was Originally at OHM TECH left ORION to work
at PPI. I know him very, very well and he would tell you that the
amplifiers were quite dissimilar. Different Power Supply, different output
section, etc. Yeah, the outsides "looked" similar, square with fins.

You somehow seem to believe that all that were at ORION were cleft in two
and became 2 exact copies. One to stay behind at ORION and one to leave to
form PPI. That is not the case. It took some time for PPI to make new
contacts, and to find sources of raw materials, recruit employees, etc.

On another note, had PPI stolen from ORION any intellectual property, then
they would have been sued into oblivion by ORION. Remember, ORION had
about a 2 year head start. They had capital and profits. Why did they not
get sued by ORION? It was because they were completely different. GET IT!
PPI was in business for 17 years before going into decline. That says
something.

John Andreen

Captain Howdy wrote:



This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock
offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created
Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt
that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and
started totally fresh at
PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers
along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already
had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building
amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could
not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies
as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI
amplifiers looked like
Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an
Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware
of the fact that they were made by the same people.








  #91   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Tell me he didn't just post that............

This guy's even dumber than I thought.




Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
What is your point other then being a noob?

In article m, OldOneEye
wrote:
It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Juan



  #92   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

And tell me I didn't just read this................

OMG it just keeps going.



Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.

In article ,
othanks (Soundfreak03) wrote:
What is your point other then being a noob?


Psssst. Captain, its the other way around.



  #93   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers


John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just
trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like
the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:
I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD

  #94   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to see ?


In article 1c6Fb.608975$Tr4.1584825@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Tell me he didn't just post that............

This guy's even dumber than I thought.




Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
. ..
What is your point other then being a noob?

In article m, OldOneEye
wrote:
It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Juan



  #95   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child.


SO? Who cares. The aol newsgroup browser is easy to use and strings messages
how I LIKE them.
And I am no noob. How long have you been posting here? A few weeks?

So go back to McDonalds your shift should be starting soon, and be sure you
take your latest subscription to the car audio rag so you can learn even more
than you already know. Oh and be sure you tell us how Rockford copied Kicker
and how PPI copied Pyle or whatever irrelevent BS you like to spew.

Les


  #96   Report Post  
John Spagnolo MMXpress.com
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the
power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells
reducing the size of the mainboard resulting in a smaller amplifier foot

print
over poke through technology. Also producing a much cleaner look

eliminating
jumper wires and power rails. Have you looked inside a PPI amplifier

lately?
Lets not forget about my favorite MTX amplifier advance in their class D

line,
The compression circuit, protecting the subwoofer during amplifier

clipping at
high volume levels compressing peak spikes. The only thing that I would

add is
a adjustable compression ratio.

Advances like what?



  #97   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to
you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just
trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like
the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:


I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD




  #98   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

What, that Freaks a noob? You ARE on crack. He's been here as long as I
can remember and I've been here on and off for at least 4 or 5 years.



Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to

see ?


In article 1c6Fb.608975$Tr4.1584825@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Tell me he didn't just post that............

This guy's even dumber than I thought.




Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
. ..
What is your point other then being a noob?

In article m,

OldOneEye
wrote:
It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook
for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps
look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody.

Juan





  #99   Report Post  
John Spagnolo MMXpress.com
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from?
People just be poppin out the woodwork.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to
you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was

just
trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much

like
the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of

story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:


I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD






  #100   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Their very, very first units were self-oscillators, in reality there was no
PWM chips yet made or were cost prohibitive. Can't remember when the
decision was made to go regulated with a controller. You are right though,
the really small amps (below 100 Watts) were "loosely regulated" (hate the
phrasology). Mostly due to PCB real estate for the secondary storage
device (large Inductor). PPI even produced a unit called internally as the
"Peanut". Might have been 10-12 Watts/ channel whose heatsink was only
about 3-4" long. But very early on, there was a push internally for for
PWM P/S as there was the issue of excessive heat caused by high idle
currents on the larger amplifiers when using fixed duty cycle Pulse width
power supplies. There was also the issue of the protection afforded a
regulated design.

In general, I try not to use the term "loosely regulated" when describing a
power supply as there can be loosely regulated PWM supplies and there can
be tightly regulated fixed duty cycle power supplies. A better way is to
always describe the topology. PWM Fixed frequency forward converter,
Flyback converter, etc. PPI PWM power supplies are mostly of the Fixed
frequency forward converter type. The PPI2350 is the exception as it is a
PWM full H-bridge converter. This spreads the "electrical stress" on the
MOSFET devices but also can fail spectacularly when cross conduction
occurs.

JA


John Durbin wrote:

Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that
hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but
not in a cohesive way. Only thing I saw there that I am still curious
about is the full PWM going that far back with PPI - seems to me they
made loosely regulated amps early on, and on other occasions throughout
the history of the brand. For example, when I was an Orion dealer back
in 87/88, we also dabbled in PPI amps and processors, around the period
when they had models like the 2075, and I seem to recall an asymmetric 4
channel model called the 4030 or something like that. I don't recall
those pieces having the extra transformer you'd expect from a fully
regulated design. In the PCX family, only the larger models are fully
regulated - the smaller ones are loosely regulated, i.e. "adaptive PWM
power supply" as Marketing calls it :-)

JD

John Andreen wrote:

John Durbin wrote:



I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know
they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire
shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are
extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You
clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I
do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing
the conditions at ADST when we acquired them.

As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies
produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion
design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about
were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if
you ware arguing in his favor on that point.

JD




Mr Durbin,

I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this.
A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for
Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH
saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This
handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original
people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The
biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty
cycle
quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM
regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I
am
pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a
gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION
were
both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers
made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over
in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power
supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious
effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because".

PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power
play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created
EXTANT
amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of
operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the
building.

PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your
speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce
products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their
heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion
dies were always purchased outright.

Does this help?

John Andreen







  #101   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

He was always quiet at RF so we didn't converse much. But I do
remember that he did good work.
JA

John Durbin wrote:

that's the guy...

JD

John Andreen wrote:

John,

Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate.
If so, He is quite the Audio Engineer.

John Andreen



  #102   Report Post  
golds
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.

If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the
ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far.
Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize.
The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2
amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module
right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a
single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting
(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the
chassis.



"John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message ...
but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...


Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from?
People just be poppin out the woodwork.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to
you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was

just
trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much

like
the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of

story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:


I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD




  #103   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

??? 2N6488 and 2N6491 are complementary bipolar transistors, not MOSFET's:

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/2N6487-D.PDF

Orion used them in the early days for switching power supplies, even
after many companies had started making the change to FET's. I suspect
design elements relating to that are what John was referring to when he
mentioned "vestiges" that persisted in Orion supplies up until the
current product line.

And I think you must not have followed the discussion about design
philosophy or lineage, relative to these brands borrowing designs from
each other. This comment:

"these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry
standpoint"

is just not accurate. You need to look beyond the shared brands for some
internal parts - which is hardly surprising, there are only so many
semiconductor brands to choose from - and consider the very different
power supply or output stage configurations, not to mention different
front end topology.

JD

golds wrote:

Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.

If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the
ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far.
Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize.
The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2
amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module
right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a
single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting
(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the
chassis.



"John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message ...


but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...


Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from?
People just be poppin out the woodwork.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"John Durbin" wrote in message
.. .


I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to
you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:



John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was


just


trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much


like


the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of


story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:




I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD






  #104   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Back in the day, I had an Orion 280Gx and 2150GX they were both rock sold
amps. Even now days I would still take 2250SX or 2100HCCA, even more so a
500GS over most of the new stuff out there today. Orion also had a purple NT
line which I like very much. Back in the day those amps were real pro gear
without any crossovers, fuses, speaker protection and polarity protection just
to name some.

If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the
ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far.
Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize.
The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2
amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module
right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a
single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting
(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the
chassis.



  #105   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:
Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.



  #106   Report Post  
OldOneEye
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Are you really this dense? Forgive me if someone has already said that
a few times (hey, I use the CarAudioForum gateway for RAC so it might
be a bit old).

So far, this has come out. PPI and Orion use different heatsinks, made
from different dies. Ok, so that part goes out the window. They used
different topologies. Changing from Orion's topology to PPI's topology
would probably require starting from scratch I would imagine. Like
trying to make a front wheel drive car rear wheel drive or an automatic
car into a stick. Better off starting from scratch than modifying I
would think.

They DON'T look the same. Look at the pictures. I have owned and sold
several of both series of amps and trust me they are not the same. If
you put a GX280 back to back with a PPI 2075AM or 2075M they would not
even be close when it comes to most of the measurements. They have
different connectors for power.

Also, the PPI amps didn't need a bridging adaptor like the Orion amps.

They use a different heatsink, with a different footprint (so it wasn't
like the Sansui and PPI models that were similar sizes with a different
look, but similar foot prints).

I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious.
Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things
were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make
things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't
get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then,
everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that
because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar
is a plain wrong.

Juan

Captain Howdy wrote:
*This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX
knock offs,
as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion
to begin
with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they
trashed
every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally
fresh at
PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers
along
with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already
had from
Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building
amplifiers, you
get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on
as a
single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by
John
Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers
looked like
Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more
of an
Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am
aware of
the fact that they were made by the same people.

I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like

this.
A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing

for
Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM

TECH
saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product.

This
handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the

original
people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power

Inc. The
biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed

duty cycle
quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM
regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this

juncture, I am
pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There

was a
gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and

ORION were
both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION

amplifiers
made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left

over in
the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET

power
supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial

deleterious
effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because".
*

--
OldOneEye
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=167571

  #107   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt
ripped them off too! Dork.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to

building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:
Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a

system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.



  #108   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and
is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most
TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses
two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a
dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice.
Dork

In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt
ripped them off too! Dork.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to

building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:
Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a

system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.



  #109   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I guess that you missed gold's post.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.


I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious.
Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things
were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make
things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't
get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then,
everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that
because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar
is a plain wrong.

Juan

  #110   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I guess that you missed gold's post.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint.


From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that
takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%?




  #111   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I already know all this. Dork.


Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and
is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most
TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt

uses
two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a
dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any

justice.
Dork

In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can,

you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt
ripped them off too! Dork.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to

building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:
Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a

system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.





  #112   Report Post  
John Andreen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Just to let you know

2N6488 and 2N6491 devices are not FETS or MOSFETS they are BJT's. MOSFETS
are used in power supplies as they are easier to control for high current
switching and BJT's are used in output sections mostly due to PNP/NPN
complementary pair parameter symmetry. It is also said that BJT's make for
"smoother" sound than MOSFET's. Both PPI and Orion used these devices
early on and possibly currently. They are good devices. Rated at 80V@15A
( not continuous ). They were once equally well at home in the power
supply section as well as output sections as long as the rail voltages of
the outputs were less than +/-40V. Fairchild makes good stuff, but the
internal die size of many of their devices is smaller than their
counterparts. Means, they are not as good at handling overstress.

JA

golds wrote:

Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.

If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the
ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far.
Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize.
The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2
amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module
right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a
single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting
(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the
chassis.



"John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message
...
but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...


Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from?
People just be poppin out the woodwork.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"John Durbin" wrote in message
...
I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not
to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I
was

just
trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too
much

like
the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of

story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:


I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD





  #113   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models
grasshopper.

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

I guess that you missed gold's post.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.



I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious.
Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things
were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make
things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't
get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then,
everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that
because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar
is a plain wrong.

Juan




  #114   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

I suppose if I showed you that same design, available for purchase by
pretty much any company with a checkbook, in a catalog from the factory,
with a generic heat sink design wrapped around it, you would still think
it was "doing their own thing", eh?

Also, the licensing is covered by buying the chips ... there's no
separate "technology" agreement. If there is one, it's with the factory,
not the brand owner - like Blaupunkt. Given a couple of other larger
companies offer similar chip-based solutions, Tripath wouldn't have
gotten very far with a licensing requirement.

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:

Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and
is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most
TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses
two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a
dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice.
Dork

In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:


Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt
ripped them off too! Dork.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
.. .


I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to


building


amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:


Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a


system


with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.






  #115   Report Post  
John Durbin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Haven't been used in either brand for some time - the newer high
current, low rds FET's just work better in switching supplies.

JD

John Andreen wrote:

Just to let you know

2N6488 and 2N6491 devices are not FETS or MOSFETS they are BJT's. MOSFETS
are used in power supplies as they are easier to control for high current
switching and BJT's are used in output sections mostly due to PNP/NPN
complementary pair parameter symmetry. It is also said that BJT's make for
"smoother" sound than MOSFET's. Both PPI and Orion used these devices
early on and possibly currently. They are good devices. Rated at 80V@15A
( not continuous ). They were once equally well at home in the power
supply section as well as output sections as long as the rail voltages of
the outputs were less than +/-40V. Fairchild makes good stuff, but the
internal die size of many of their devices is smaller than their
counterparts. Means, they are not as good at handling overstress.

JA

golds wrote:



Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the
same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491)
(M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power
supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance
Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets.

If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the
ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far.
Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize.
The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2
amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module
right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a
single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting
(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the
chassis.



"John Spagnolo MMXpress.com" wrote in message
. ..


but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...


Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from?
People just be poppin out the woodwork.

--
John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016
Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com
"It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98'
R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/
JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials
MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/


"John Durbin" wrote in message
. ..


I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not
to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ...

JD

Captain Howdy wrote:



John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I
was


just


trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too
much


like


the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of


story.


In article , John Durbin
wrote:




I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps
look like, myself ...

JD











  #116   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after
all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees


In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
I guess that you missed gold's post.

I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years
as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost
exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint.


From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that
takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%?


  #117   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Care to point out just how much of it was wrong, you're not really telling me
much. I thought you made it clear in your posts that you don't know jack about
their products of the yesteryears. I'm not saying that PPI gear is bad, well
other then their new junk compared to their old gear. PPI gear is cloned in
more ways then one, but that has been pointed out already in the above posts.
That's my opinion along with DEI alarms being overpriced in features and in
quality,comparing the my 300+ Viper to my $100 Audiovox alarm and I'm sticking
to my opinion. Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. That should make things clear
enough for you. Oh, and DEI warranty support sucks ass in Canada, in Ontario
to be exact, replacement parts are hard to get, and your products have too
high of a markup (not sure what that means). These are some of the reasons I
was given when I asked two local dealers why they dropped DEI and related
products such as Orion and PPI from their lineup. Sounds like poor marketing
in this area, What do you think JD?

In article , John Durbin
wrote:
Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models
grasshopper.

JD

  #118   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Well then, try to spend a little less time under the dashboard and restore
the blood flow to your brain. In the long run you'll be a much happier person
with a lot less anger.

In article UZLFb.631821$Fm2.567625@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
I already know all this. Dork.


Paul Vina



"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
.. .
Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and
is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most
TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt

uses
two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a
dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any

justice.
Dork

In article e%JFb.625110$Tr4.1618099@attbi_s03, "Paul Vina"
wrote:
Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can,

you
think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt
ripped them off too! Dork.


Paul Vina




"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to
building
amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers.

In article , "John Spagnolo
MMXpress.com" wrote:
Oh. OK then.

Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-)

I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a
system
with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175.





  #119   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones.


Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller.


  #120   Report Post  
Captain Howdy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Directed Amplifiers

Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have never
used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't want on
Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason for
it. What is your point?



In article , "Mark Zarella"
wrote:
Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old
Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones.


Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller.


Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Kicker ZR1000 amplifiers for $250ea shipped Ge0 Car Audio 0 September 8th 03 04:38 PM
Soundstorm Amplifiers -E-F-F-E-N-D-I- Car Audio 2 August 4th 03 05:26 AM
Profile Amplifiers eidsvikDM Car Audio 2 July 28th 03 05:43 PM
Support for Directed DEI Studio 3065 Paul Hanley Car Audio 7 July 21st 03 02:59 AM
Calibra Amplifiers JohanWagener Car Audio 7 July 12th 03 06:35 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:29 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"