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keithr wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


keithr wrote:

snip irelevants,

To change the situation, Peter Stein should produce manuals
for sale, and give all schematics and explanations and
include the simple methods of matching the transistors.

There certainly should be a manual available at a reasonable price, but
this
is one of the problems with boutique manufacturers, they can't usually
afford a technical writer to do the job, and the last person that you
want
doing it is the designer.


Wrong.


sorry but I have to disagree as someone who has been there and done that.

Peter Stein has once appeared on the news groups to slow up the bull****
stream from Trevor
Wilson. Its was not a happy episode.

Stein has no trouble typing plain english, and would, like myself, have
no trouble
whatsover drafting up a comprehensive manual.

He would do it better than an employed writer who would, without Peter's
knowledge, make a cock up of the manual.


You obviously have never participated in a major commercial project.


Your observation is correct if you mean something to do with
audio gear production.

But I would be the same as I am with myself when it comes to demanding
unambiguous texts and having plenty of meaning with a minimum of words.
There is no Booker Prize for amp manuals.



I have
see the crap that designers wrote, then the tranformation that a
professional technical writer could bring to it.


OK, sure, some technical people cannot say a single word
without a foot being in their mouth.

In my case I could NEVER afford a pro writer.

The buck stops here. I am cook, CEO, bottle washer and writer of this
little outfit.


It is an iterative process
that may take a couple of cycles between the designers and the writer to
asrrive at something that satisfies everybody, but the result is far better
than the designers would do themselves.


Edit, Edit, Edit and Edit and ****in Edit.

Then finally, it looks OK and has no errors.

That's my way.

Part of the process is getting the
designers to explain their work to someone who knows nothing about the
project, that focusses the mind wonderfully


Maybe.

There is a university student guy in the UK wanting to make a program
for winding transformers
which will deal with my 63 steps of logic required to make an OPT.
He's really struggling with it all to understand what the heck I am on
about.

He'll be the second student to have a go to automate my logic flow.
The first one 3 years ago only got as far as calculating turns
and core size for a for a given power and load value.
Time ran out for him.



I didn't need some dumb & expensive writer **** to write my website and
draw up all the schematics.

If you cannot and or will not write up your own
true story about your productions then something is very wrong.


In my experience, few designers do a good job of it.


In my view someone who cannot describe their design in a schematic
and a few paragraphs and maybe a few formula has not trained himself
well enough as a communicator.



include the simple methods of matching the transistors.

Far better to design curcuits that do not require component matching to
within 1%

People wanting to own an ME 850 amp should get a far better deal
than they get now for their $6,000.

Yes like $4000 change.


Peter Stein doesn't care that his product appeals to only a tiny itzt
bitzy
weeny percentage of ppl.

He must think he can "hang out" for the big price.

However, I could also be accused of charging too much per watt.

But the work I do for $6,000 is vastly more than whatever Peter Stein
does.

Any SS amp is child's play to make compared to a serious tube amp.


Why?


Well, for example, consider the last pair of monoblocs with 2 x 845 in
parallel for
60 watts into 4 ohms.

There are two complex PTs, and two complex OPTs, same size, 51mm tongue,
x 72mm stack GOSS.
Thousands of well placed turns with correct insulation and the PT has 48
connections,
OPT has 24 connections. Many taps and windings.

It takes a week to make just one tranny.

There is all the custome metal work for 4 chassis, two for two PSUs,
two larger for two amp chassis.

There are a total of 6 chokes for each channel,
and on each amp chassis there is a hand crafted heatsink to cool
resistors producing over 50 watts of heat without
becoming hot, so I have 36 square cm of aluminium area per watt.

Everything is hand wired onto hand made terminal strips.

Several weeks of design work are required for every set of amps I make.

Then there is a the tweaking and OPT gap adjustment, and potting of all
OPT and PT with sand and resin.
The 4 chokes used for the two pairs of choke input dc supplies for 3.5A
to the
845 heaters are also potted in sand/resin mix to ensure their silence.

Then comes the metalwork for the covers over the transformers on the amp
chassis.
Then grilles and gurds to stop tube breakage.
These items are tough, but carefully made, so that if the amp falls off
a table it won't
bend in half. Total weight is 85 Kgs split into 4 chassis.
Special rugged umbilical cables have been made using mobile crane
cables.

There is the active protection board in each amp chassis to guard
against tube failure or excessive
cathode current.

There is the paintwork of the chassis covers and grilles, drilled out
guard plates
around tubes, and bottom plates and drilling out for ventilations.

I do it all without any help, except this time I had a metalworker
bend up my steel chassis and weld it all and make it nice like a Quad-II
chassis standard.
There isn't anyone I could train who'd settle for becoming an amp worker
like me.
The wages are way too low. So young men who might like to
become some sort of tradesman will choose to be an electrician or
plumber,
because its easy and very well paid, despite working in bathrooms and
toilets,
or in rat infested roof areas of houses.

Maybe that partially answers your question of 'why'.


,

Then it depends who you compare me to. Some chinese makers are selling
5050 Watt stereo tube4 amps on-line
and direct from the maker without western round eye arsole middlemen for
$700.

But they are junk, and badly made.


I have owned several Japanese SS amps costing 10-20% of an ME and have never
had the least trouble with any of them, the only reason that they have been
replaced is to get something a little better.


Japanese amps, yes, often very good.

The Japs discovered that to woo the west they needed to
invent better quality than anything made in the west.

In the 50s, after WW2, the Jap crap was allowed into Oz, and
many hated it because of Japan's attempt to ruin so many lives
during the war years. Many liked it though because it was cheaper,
had better features, but still was junk anyway.

The junk got better and better as the decades rolled on and cars and
cameras
and some electronics from Japan was pretty **** hot.

Not all though, and much stuff for export to Oz was
much below domestic quality destined for the locval Jap consumers.

But the Chinese have yet to graduate to real quality.

Mybe in another 20 years they will realise that their **** stinks just
like I know mine does.
I'll be gone of course, and won't have to worry what the **** they do.





The Real Mccoy is much more expensive.

I don't care if you make steam engines forsale. Good luck if you do.

But if you didn't have the service information about your engines, i'd
be right onto you.


If you can't service your own steam engine without help, you shouldn't be
owning one. I don't think that Watt had a web site.


But you'd need to know all about the engine parts and how they were made
and to
service it. For example if your steam engine was a 1950 made type 38
express locomotive
used on mainline express passenger routes in NSW, a manual would be
essential.
In such nice old toys, a boiler change isn't so easy to perform.

Especially without a huge pre-existing railway yard workshop
with dozens of blokes to help out.

The local Railway Historical Society has a large articulated Garrat
loco, 16 driving wheels,
4 lots of cylinders.
They have other simpler locos. They have manuals.
Books are kept on work done to each engine.


My overwhelming concern in this thread is that
Peter Stein and that idiot fool Trevor Wilson fail to see that its
necessary to have all constructional information and schematics of their
products
either available online for free or available as a hard copy workshop
service manual for a fee.

Trevor accuses me of SHOUTING but he spews mountains of utter lies,
bull****,
and nothing really informative at all.

He has never designed or built an amp in his life,
but poses as a know all.


The pair of you are as bad as each other. Peronally, I never built a
mainframe computer but I was damn good at fixing them mainly because I had a
good understanding of the principles involved (and had a complete set of
logics).


I inform, and teach, and Wilson spews BS about **** all to make
himself look good. I don't care how bad I look;
I will always have time for the truth about technical issues about which
Trevor seems to have
almost no idea at all.

He cannot even explain the ME amp design in any way whatsoever which
makes
any sense to anyone.
Its all blather, artless posturing for sales and fame, but among
the few who do understand technicals, he is a clumsy minded klutz.

Trevor used to have a website, http://www.rageaudio.com.au

Its under construction. The man cannot even maintain a website any more.

There is the ME website at http://www.me-au.com/index.html

There is not the slightest bit of technical info.
But there is a mention there of the stack of parts Stein has for
future productions. So it does seem he purchased gear left over from
when his factory
and equipment was sold off years ago as a result of a divorce.
Perhaps his wife found him rather difficult and stubborn, obsessive, and
uncomunicative.

I doubt we will ever see a workshop manual, ever.

Wilson and Stein seem quite incapable of making sure there are manuals.

Patrick Turner.







Keith

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keithr wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"keithr" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...



snip,


**The output stage uses no feedback loop. All feedback is local only. IOW:
Degenerative feedback only.


Maybe a little feedback around the output stage would eliminate the need for
such close matching without changing the sound, but I suppose that in audio,
everybody has to have their own gimmick to differentiate their product.


Indeed the mention of no global FB and local only is a gimmick.

I have the ME 75 amp schematic in front of me right now.

Its the only ME amp schematic I have, aquired before I went online from
goodness knows where;
must have been from Peter Stein during better times because I recall
having to repair an ME
75 with serious faults.

The schematic is an untidy mess of thing, and there are no notes.
Just what you'd expect from a cowboy outfit.

The output stage for a channel has 12 transistors in total, with a type
of Sziclai
arrangement around the 4 or more output transistors.

The Sziclai has two stages, an emitter follower which is arranged with
common emitter output pairs
to create current to ensure the output voltage follows the input voltage
applied to the low
power follower input stage.
Sziclai stage working is all viewable in Google if a search is done.

The input follower does have a low collector resistance and some
inverted gain to work the
output transistor bases, and their collector current action on the
output load creates
the NFB voltage applied to the input transistor emitters.
Lots of open loop gain, and lots of loop NFB are in action.

The input section of the amp has 8 transistors and a damned opamp.
It is has basically a symetrical pair of npn and pnp differential pairs
paralleled so that there are two inputs, one for input signal,
the other for the global loop NFB which Trevor denies exists.
Its global NFB around more than one stage, and Trevor Wilson tells lies
about
a circuit he should know very well.

The output of the two diff pairs power a quad of
npn and pnp class A series complementary transistors to create the drive
to the output
stage.

I use a very similar drive arrangement in my own amps.
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/solids...s1mosfets.html
This input topology is fast and has faily low open loop THD of only
about 4% without the global NFB.
The symetrical input diff amp and Voltage Amp Stage was invented a long
long time ago
by someone bright spark way ahead of Stein.

The ME has global FB from the output of the VAS drive amp fed back to
the second input port of the parallel
npn and pnp input pairs.

A huge amount of global NFB is used to get the VAS distortion low.

It would be impossible to combine all the many stages in the driver amp
and output
amp of the ME, and have one loop of global NFB. The circuit is too
complex to
ensure stability; ie, it would oscillate badly at HF with so many stages
and only one NFB loop.

In my amp and so many other designed by such luminaries as Douglas Self
and
countless others, the amp is kept much simpler than the ME way,
and only one loop of global NFB is required.
I use mosfets in source follower mode because they are so very easy to
drive,
and its so very easy to make such a circuit unconditionally stable
with ONE good loop of NFB.

People should read ......

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm

Douglas Self is a guy who knows at least 40dB more than Wilson will ever
know.

The dself website is a good example of what ME should have at their ME
website.

I hope I make myself painfully clear to Wilson and Stein.


After all, even with global feedback, I know of
no design that takes the feedback loop back to the input of the pre-amp
so it is not entirely global even in that case.


**The term 'Global NFB' is usually taken to mean that the feedback loop
operates from output to input (of the power amp stage).


Wrong.

There are usually 3 stages in a power amp, input pair/s,
VAS, and transconductance output stage.
Global NFB is applied around all 3 cascaded stages.

But where you have two stages in an input plus VAS arrangement
with global NFB around two stages, its global NFB, right!!!!

Don't ****ing bull**** to us Wilson!

And where you have two stages in the output stage, and global NFB, its
global NFB.

It should come as no surprise that in fact the NFB applied in ME amps
enables the stages to be stabilised quite well against sprurious RF
oscillations.

Wilson has never been able to explain it properly, as he prefers to sit
high upon
the bull**** bandwagon, and brag about having "zero global NFB"

Having zero global NFB around a coupla stages in SS amps is a complete
curse upon the sound.
SS amps need all the NFB they can muster.

The ME output stage is the one most prone to creating distortions
because it operates
mainly in class B, and the crossover distortions need to be supressed by
NFB action.

To avoid noise from the PSU getting into the output stage
that has barely enough global NFB, ME use a truckload of capacitors to
filter the rails.
Not a bad idea, for it gives the FB network less work to do to clean up
the noise.
The transistor matching also helps, but the FB and Sziclai arrangement
has the majority effect, with matching making only a tiny
contribution to fidelity.

If we consider Quad's 405 "current dumping" amp, the output transistors
are arranged so that it is entirely non critical whether they are
matched or
not, and bias isn't critical either.
Does anyone think ME amps sound better than a Quad 405?

Did Peter Walker have a few more brains than the guys at ME?

Is the Pope a catholic?

I understand the emotional attachment Wilson might have for the ME
design he undertsands so poorly. Its just a silly emotional attachment.

Patrick Turner.









Trevor Wilson

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roughplanet wrote, while he orgasmed at the thought of amplifiers,


Ohhhh..............you'd LOVE the linear amplifier that I have sitting in my
shack at the moment Alan, all 3kW of it. Once midnight strikes, I'll turn it
on.
Hope I don't turn into......PA :-).

ruff


Er, aim the darn thing away from PA. He's bad enough without RF
affecting him as well.

Be careful, my 300 watt narrow beam high speed Tewbuctous Ray Destroyer
has just passed all tests and can vaporize bull**** at some distance
away.



Patrick Turner.
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"keithr" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"keithr" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

Good transistor amps function perfectly well with wider tolerances
than
you say because of the abundance of
local and other NFB.

**"Good" is your term. not mine. I happen to feel that amplifiers which
use lots of Golbal NFB are not "good". They are average.

Trevor Wilson

Speaking as one who has never seen, heard, or even smelled an ME amp
perhaps you can clear something up for me. As I understand it the ME is
made up of several modules in the signal path. Each of these modules has
it's own feedback loop.


**Not quite. The amplifier is not all that complex. It is pretty
standard, full complementary symmetry thoughout, dual differential
inputs, with the obligatory active current sources. The Voltage amplifier
stage uses around 15dB of Global NFB to stabilise Voltage gain to the
desired level. The Voltage amp feeds the current amplifier, which uses
local feedback only (no loop, from output back to input). The output
devices are coupled to the load via the collectors, rather than the more
usual emitter follower configuration. So, no, each module does not have
it's own feedback loop. Only the Voltage amp has a feedback loop.

Assuming that the module and it's feedback path are correctly
designed and thus pass an undistorted signal to the next downstream
module, why does this require such tight tolerancing in the output
stage?


**Because there is no loop feedback around the output stage.
Additionally, the feedback that does operate, is lightly applied.

I do
assume that the ouput stage module has it's own feedback loop and is
being fed an undistorted signal.


**The output stage uses no feedback loop. All feedback is local only.
IOW: Degenerative feedback only.


Maybe a little feedback around the output stage would eliminate the need
for such close matching without changing the sound, but I suppose that in
audio, everybody has to have their own gimmick to differentiate their
product.


**There's the rub. Peter Stein did build some sample amps which used some
Global NFB. Distortion was reduced (from what was already an inaudible
level) and it would have reduced the dependence on matched devices. HOWEVER,
blind testing showed that most listeners preferred the zero Global NFB
approach. I was one of those listeners. I received two, otherwise identical,
amplifiers. I was asked to judge which I preferred over a period of several
weeks. I was not told what differences there were, nor what to expect.
Whilst the differences were not earth-shattering, they were obvious.

Trevor Wilson


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"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"

**Correct. Just to recap:

I don't attempt to match transistors for ME repairs. I buy them from
Peter. I merely listed the above tests to show that transistors vary
wildly in Hfe.



** You have shown no such thing with a meaningless test with that
unsuitable " Peak " meter - which is clearly intended for small signal
devices.

The Hfe of high power BJTs typically falls off sharply below 100mA Ic.

The very same group of MJ15003s will likely test very close in Hfe at an
Ic of 250mA or more.


**Indeed. I made that very point earlier. For matching output devices in an
output stage, it is important to match at suitably high currents. I am still
waiting to find out if that is how Mouser match their devices. Here are some
more results form my own stock. The first column are some devices (MJ15004)
tested at 1 Amp (by Peter Stein). The second column at around 4ma (the Peak
tester):

81 79
89 85
80 77
74 71
81 77
85 81

From the above, we can see that you are correct. The gain is lower at lower
currents. Importantly, however, the gain difference appears to be similar
across all the devices. IOW: Although not an accurate indicator of Hfe at
high currents, a low current measurement may provide a rough approximation.
Which is what I was attempting to demonstrate.

Trevor Wilson



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


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"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


keithr wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


keithr wrote:

snip irelevants,

To change the situation, Peter Stein should produce manuals
for sale, and give all schematics and explanations and
include the simple methods of matching the transistors.

There certainly should be a manual available at a reasonable price,
but
this
is one of the problems with boutique manufacturers, they can't usually
afford a technical writer to do the job, and the last person that you
want
doing it is the designer.

Wrong.


sorry but I have to disagree as someone who has been there and done that.

Peter Stein has once appeared on the news groups to slow up the
bull****
stream from Trevor
Wilson. Its was not a happy episode.

Stein has no trouble typing plain english, and would, like myself, have
no trouble
whatsover drafting up a comprehensive manual.

He would do it better than an employed writer who would, without
Peter's
knowledge, make a cock up of the manual.


You obviously have never participated in a major commercial project.


Your observation is correct if you mean something to do with
audio gear production.

But I would be the same as I am with myself when it comes to demanding
unambiguous texts and having plenty of meaning with a minimum of words.
There is no Booker Prize for amp manuals.


Quite true but clear, complete and unambiguous texts are very rare from the
pens of designers

I have
see the crap that designers wrote, then the tranformation that a
professional technical writer could bring to it.


OK, sure, some technical people cannot say a single word
without a foot being in their mouth.

In my case I could NEVER afford a pro writer.

The buck stops here. I am cook, CEO, bottle washer and writer of this
little outfit.


As I said before, that is one of the problems with boutique manufacturers.

It is an iterative process
that may take a couple of cycles between the designers and the writer to
asrrive at something that satisfies everybody, but the result is far
better
than the designers would do themselves.


Edit, Edit, Edit and Edit and ****in Edit.

Then finally, it looks OK and has no errors.

That's my way.

Part of the process is getting the
designers to explain their work to someone who knows nothing about the
project, that focusses the mind wonderfully


Maybe.

There is a university student guy in the UK wanting to make a program
for winding transformers
which will deal with my 63 steps of logic required to make an OPT.
He's really struggling with it all to understand what the heck I am on
about.

He'll be the second student to have a go to automate my logic flow.
The first one 3 years ago only got as far as calculating turns
and core size for a for a given power and load value.
Time ran out for him.


That is the sort of thing that I do for a living, you get a requirement from
the originator of the project. It may be a comprehensive specification or
just a few words, you check that it makes sense, going back to the
originator if needs be to come to an agreement on something that is suitable
to automate and meets their needs. You then break the task down into steps
each being an independant task which preferably can be easily verified
during the design and coding process, then you code it. You run as many test
as you can to verify and debug the program, then give it back to the
originator to try and destroy.

I looked at your stuff in regard to the push pull case, there doesn't seem
to be any rocket science there, but I am surprised that you don't mention
bifilar winding which we always used to consider the "Proper" way of winding
PP transformer primaries as it assures perfect matching betweem the sides.
Harder to wind I have to admit.

I didn't need some dumb & expensive writer **** to write my website and
draw up all the schematics.

If you cannot and or will not write up your own
true story about your productions then something is very wrong.


In my experience, few designers do a good job of it.


In my view someone who cannot describe their design in a schematic
and a few paragraphs and maybe a few formula has not trained himself
well enough as a communicator.


That may be true (at least in some cases) on something as simple as an audio
amp, but it certainly hs not been true of any number of complex projects
that I have been involved in. Hell, it isn't even true of a service manual
for a TV set.


include the simple methods of matching the transistors.

Far better to design curcuits that do not require component matching
to
within 1%

People wanting to own an ME 850 amp should get a far better deal
than they get now for their $6,000.

Yes like $4000 change.

Peter Stein doesn't care that his product appeals to only a tiny itzt
bitzy
weeny percentage of ppl.

He must think he can "hang out" for the big price.

However, I could also be accused of charging too much per watt.

But the work I do for $6,000 is vastly more than whatever Peter Stein
does.

Any SS amp is child's play to make compared to a serious tube amp.


Why?


Well, for example, consider the last pair of monoblocs with 2 x 845 in
parallel for
60 watts into 4 ohms.

There are two complex PTs, and two complex OPTs, same size, 51mm tongue,
x 72mm stack GOSS.
Thousands of well placed turns with correct insulation and the PT has 48
connections,
OPT has 24 connections. Many taps and windings.

It takes a week to make just one tranny.


That is only because you choose to make your own tranformers. There are a
number of reputable manufacturers who have a range of products that would
meet most requirements, and, if you cost your time, no more expensive
either. It is beyond me why anybody would even want to design/manufacture
their own power transformer, when there is such an array available on the
market. Personally, I'd want to use a torriod anyway and they would be a
******* to wind without the proper machinary

There is all the custome metal work for 4 chassis, two for two PSUs,
two larger for two amp chassis.


Chasssis work is as complex as you care to make it. If I were making a tube
amp, I think that I'd make a wooden frame for the sides with a polished or
anodised duralumin top plate carrying the circuitry. Looks nice and is dead
easy to make. A SS amp would require nearly as much metal bashing as a tube
model.

There are a total of 6 chokes for each channel,
and on each amp chassis there is a hand crafted heatsink to cool
resistors producing over 50 watts of heat without
becoming hot, so I have 36 square cm of aluminium area per watt.


I can see no reason at all for making chokes. They are very rarely critical
components, off the shelf products will do an excellent job 99% of the
time.SS amps require more extensive heatsinking that any tube amp that I
have ever come across

Everything is hand wired onto hand made terminal strips.


With an SS amp you either have exactly the same amount of wiring, or more
usually you are up for the design and manufacture of a PCB or PCBs and then
stuffing the components onto that.

Several weeks of design work are required for every set of amps I make.

Then there is a the tweaking and OPT gap adjustment, and potting of all
OPT and PT with sand and resin.
The 4 chokes used for the two pairs of choke input dc supplies for 3.5A
to the
845 heaters are also potted in sand/resin mix to ensure their silence.

Then comes the metalwork for the covers over the transformers on the amp
chassis.
Then grilles and gurds to stop tube breakage.
These items are tough, but carefully made, so that if the amp falls off
a table it won't
bend in half. Total weight is 85 Kgs split into 4 chassis.


If a 20odd Kg chassis fell of the table, I'd be worried about the floor. You
bring up a major advantage of SS gear, you could build the equivalent at a
quarter or less weight.

Special rugged umbilical cables have been made using mobile crane
cables.

There is the active protection board in each amp chassis to guard
against tube failure or excessive
cathode current.


Same protection requirement for SS amps

There is the paintwork of the chassis covers and grilles, drilled out
guard plates
around tubes, and bottom plates and drilling out for ventilations.


Just the same for a SS amp.

I do it all without any help, except this time I had a metalworker
bend up my steel chassis and weld it all and make it nice like a Quad-II
chassis standard.
There isn't anyone I could train who'd settle for becoming an amp worker
like me.
The wages are way too low. So young men who might like to
become some sort of tradesman will choose to be an electrician or
plumber,
because its easy and very well paid, despite working in bathrooms and
toilets,
or in rat infested roof areas of houses.


Or become a programmer, the pay is good, the work is light (physically
anyway) but you do have to be mentally alert, be willing to think outside
the box, and relearn large chunks of your trade every few years.

Maybe that partially answers your question of 'why'.


As I have noted above, I don't think that it is any more complex than
designing and making a SS amp. You do choose to do many things the hard way,
and I am unconvinced that that makes the result significantly better,
certainly not in proportion to the effort involved


Then it depends who you compare me to. Some chinese makers are selling
5050 Watt stereo tube4 amps on-line
and direct from the maker without western round eye arsole middlemen
for
$700.

But they are junk, and badly made.


I have owned several Japanese SS amps costing 10-20% of an ME and have
never
had the least trouble with any of them, the only reason that they have
been
replaced is to get something a little better.


Japanese amps, yes, often very good.

The Japs discovered that to woo the west they needed to
invent better quality than anything made in the west.


I worked for the Japanese for 16 years and visited Japan maybe a dozen times
in that period, my assessment was that they aren't good at thinking up new
ideas, but give them a start and they will take it to it's logical
conclusion. The Japanese home market demands absolute quality, nobody but
the poorest would even contemplate buying seconds or rejects, outlet stores
were unknown there last time I visited 10 years ago. Electronics of the same
model as is current here can often be found there at knockdown prices
because they are no longer the latest model and nobody (other than
foreigners) want them. Everbody interested in any form of electronics should
visit Akihabara at least once in their life. It is jaw dropping both for the
range of stuff available and the prices

In the 50s, after WW2, the Jap crap was allowed into Oz, and
many hated it because of Japan's attempt to ruin so many lives
during the war years. Many liked it though because it was cheaper,
had better features, but still was junk anyway.


The japs only learned to solder in the late 60s, before that a standard 8
transistor radio would have a complete roll of multicore in it and about 50
dry joints

The junk got better and better as the decades rolled on and cars and
cameras
and some electronics from Japan was pretty **** hot.


By the 80s their quality was the best in the world.

Not all though, and much stuff for export to Oz was
much below domestic quality destined for the locval Jap consumers.

But the Chinese have yet to graduate to real quality.

Mybe in another 20 years they will realise that their **** stinks just
like I know mine does.
I'll be gone of course, and won't have to worry what the **** they do.





The Real Mccoy is much more expensive.

I don't care if you make steam engines forsale. Good luck if you do.

But if you didn't have the service information about your engines, i'd
be right onto you.


If you can't service your own steam engine without help, you shouldn't be
owning one. I don't think that Watt had a web site.


But you'd need to know all about the engine parts and how they were made
and to
service it. For example if your steam engine was a 1950 made type 38
express locomotive
used on mainline express passenger routes in NSW, a manual would be
essential.
In such nice old toys, a boiler change isn't so easy to perform.

Especially without a huge pre-existing railway yard workshop
with dozens of blokes to help out.

The local Railway Historical Society has a large articulated Garrat
loco, 16 driving wheels,
4 lots of cylinders.
They have other simpler locos. They have manuals.
Books are kept on work done to each engine.


Yep, I have seen it run, even ridden behind it. I have never seen a manual
for a steam loco, I was under the impression that the knowledge to fix them
was just passed down from generation to generation. It seemed that way when
my father worked on the railways. When I have my house sorted out, I may
join the Dorrego steam museum and help restore some of the huge number of
old pieces of machinary that they own. It was great as a kid having a father
on the railway, I got to ride on the footplate of steam locos and all sorts
of cool things

I inform, and teach, and Wilson spews BS about **** all to make
himself look good. I don't care how bad I look;
I will always have time for the truth about technical issues about which
Trevor seems to have
almost no idea at all.


As I said before, that is your hobby. I have no idea what TW does with his
spare time other than to post here. As a fixer of audio gear, I don't think
that he has any obligation to explain stuff, only to be accurate when he
does choose to make statements. I just wish that either you two would come
to some agreement or else to ignore each other, the same crap repeated ad
nauseum is quite boring.

He cannot even explain the ME amp design in any way whatsoever which
makes
any sense to anyone.
Its all blather, artless posturing for sales and fame, but among
the few who do understand technicals, he is a clumsy minded klutz.

Trevor used to have a website, http://www.rageaudio.com.au

Its under construction. The man cannot even maintain a website any more.


Does he even want/need one?

There is the ME website at http://www.me-au.com/index.html


Not the most informative site and it contradicts itself on the availability
of the ME850HC, but it is about what I'd expect from a semi dead company.

There is not the slightest bit of technical info.
But there is a mention there of the stack of parts Stein has for
future productions. So it does seem he purchased gear left over from
when his factory
and equipment was sold off years ago as a result of a divorce.
Perhaps his wife found him rather difficult and stubborn, obsessive, and
uncomunicative.

I doubt we will ever see a workshop manual, ever.


If you ain't seen it by now, I can't see any likelyhood of seeing it in the
future.

Keith


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Phil Allison Phil Allison is offline
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"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"
** You have shown no such thing with a meaningless test with that
unsuitable " Peak " meter - which is clearly intended for small signal
devices.

The Hfe of high power BJTs typically falls off sharply below 100mA Ic.

The very same group of MJ15003s will likely test very close in Hfe at an
Ic of 250mA or more.


**Indeed. I made that very point earlier. For matching output devices in
an
output stage, it is important to match at suitably high currents. I am
still
waiting to find out if that is how Mouser match their devices. Here are
some
more results form my own stock. The first column are some devices
(MJ15004)
tested at 1 Amp (by Peter Stein). The second column at around 4ma (the
Peak
tester):

81 79
89 85
80 77
74 71
81 77
85 81

From the above, we can see that you are correct. The gain is lower at
lower
currents. Importantly, however, the gain difference appears to be similar
across all the devices. IOW: Although not an accurate indicator of Hfe at
high currents, a low current measurement may provide a rough
approximation.
Which is what I was attempting to demonstrate.


** Completely **False ** demonstration - the fallacy of picking your
examples
to suit your claim.

OK:

That Peak tester you use tests Hfe at 2.5 mA (according to the published
specs) and at around 2.5 volt Vce - so is easily duplicated .
http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_dca55.html (See note 2. )

OTOH - my "Simple Power Transistor Tester" operates at 500mA and 6 volt
Vce.

I picked 3 x TO3 NPNs at random:


Hfe test: SPTT Peak

MJ15003#1 89 13

MJ15003#2 92 9

MJ802 175 39



So, low current testing of high power BJTs gives grossly WRONG answers.

It is complete ******** !!

Get yourself a proper power BJT tester - anytime.



....... Phil




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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise



keithr wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


keithr wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


snip,

I mentioned......
He'll be the second student to have a go to automate my logic flow.
The first one 3 years ago only got as far as calculating turns
and core size for a for a given power and load value.
Time ran out for him.


That is the sort of thing that I do for a living, you get a requirement from
the originator of the project. It may be a comprehensive specification or
just a few words, you check that it makes sense, going back to the
originator if needs be to come to an agreement on something that is suitable
to automate and meets their needs. You then break the task down into steps
each being an independant task which preferably can be easily verified
during the design and coding process, then you code it. You run as many test
as you can to verify and debug the program, then give it back to the
originator to try and destroy.

I looked at your stuff in regard to the push pull case, there doesn't seem
to be any rocket science there, but I am surprised that you don't mention
bifilar winding which we always used to consider the "Proper" way of winding
PP transformer primaries as it assures perfect matching betweem the sides.
Harder to wind I have to admit.


I think you are very wrong about primaries on PP OPT.

First of all, bifiliar windings of any type are a nightamre of
difficulty
for the average diyer or boutique maker.

Second, I have NEVER found any reason to
wind bifilar or trifilar windings anywhere.

Thirdly, if bililar or trifilar windings are ever used, ideally the dc
potentials should be
equal on all windings concerned. But the ac potentials also MUST be
equal
to avoid a high amount of unwanted shunt capacitance between two lots of
say 500 plus turns each
of say 0.4mm dia wire. McIntosh do bililar PP primaries, and the ac
potentials are equal
between one tube's cathode winding and the other's anode winding ans
vice versa.
But the windings have 470Vdc between them, and to prevent shorts and
arcs the wire is grade 3 insulation,
ie, has much thicker enamel coating than grade 2 standard high temp
winding wire.

The bifilar windings give extremely low leakage inductance between the
two
windings but very high shunt C, and thus a low Fo for the set of
windings.

Follow all my ways of winding OPT and you will hace a recipe which is
equal to all the best
makers on the planet.

Fourthly,

The bifilar P windings might give equal winding resistance to each PP
side.
But the normal way its done is to use TWO bobbins, one for each 1/2
primary.
Williamson specified this in 1947, and the complete recipe is in RDH4.

But its a terribly difficult thing to wind just for the sake of
having equal Rw per PP side.

In a typical PP amp with a 5k : 5ohm OPT, winding Rw of the whole P
should be no more than
2.5% of the P load, ie, 125 ohms.

So you could end up with say 55 ohms on one side, and 70 ohms on the
other.

The difference of 25 ohms makes an extremely tiny effect on THD/IMD.

You could place a 100 ohm R in series between one anode and its OPT
connection and
see virtually no easily measurable difference in technical performance.
The amp will sound exactly the same.

I believe my OPT methods are the best easy and effective way to get
Motzart through glassware
without upsetting his hairstyle.


I didn't need some dumb & expensive writer **** to write my website and
draw up all the schematics.

If you cannot and or will not write up your own
true story about your productions then something is very wrong.

In my experience, few designers do a good job of it.


In my view someone who cannot describe their design in a schematic
and a few paragraphs and maybe a few formula has not trained himself
well enough as a communicator.


That may be true (at least in some cases) on something as simple as an audio
amp, but it certainly hs not been true of any number of complex projects
that I have been involved in. Hell, it isn't even true of a service manual
for a TV set.


The designer needs to be able to convey what he wants to those who
hate to think, and just turn up at work to do the least they can to
avoid the sack
and still take home the money.




include the simple methods of matching the transistors.

Far better to design curcuits that do not require component matching
to
within 1%

People wanting to own an ME 850 amp should get a far better deal
than they get now for their $6,000.

Yes like $4000 change.

Peter Stein doesn't care that his product appeals to only a tiny itzt
bitzy
weeny percentage of ppl.

He must think he can "hang out" for the big price.

However, I could also be accused of charging too much per watt.

But the work I do for $6,000 is vastly more than whatever Peter Stein
does.

Any SS amp is child's play to make compared to a serious tube amp.

Why?


Well, for example, consider the last pair of monoblocs with 2 x 845 in
parallel for
60 watts into 4 ohms.

There are two complex PTs, and two complex OPTs, same size, 51mm tongue,
x 72mm stack GOSS.
Thousands of well placed turns with correct insulation and the PT has 48
connections,
OPT has 24 connections. Many taps and windings.

It takes a week to make just one tranny.


That is only because you choose to make your own tranformers. There are a
number of reputable manufacturers who have a range of products that would
meet most requirements, and, if you cost your time, no more expensive
either. It is beyond me why anybody would even want to design/manufacture
their own power transformer, when there is such an array available on the
market. Personally, I'd want to use a torriod anyway and they would be a
******* to wind without the proper machinary


Makers of diyer amps can select a range of PTs for
all the different voltages I place on just ONE PT.

There are no available CHEAP sources of iron-wound components wound to
my standards
anywhere.

I MUST wind all my own everything.

If I bought from say Sowter, or Lundahl or Plitron et all,
the cost would be horrendous, and that's a wage i don't earn.


There is all the custome metal work for 4 chassis, two for two PSUs,
two larger for two amp chassis.


Chasssis work is as complex as you care to make it. If I were making a tube
amp, I think that I'd make a wooden frame for the sides with a polished or
anodised duralumin top plate carrying the circuitry. Looks nice and is dead
easy to make. A SS amp would require nearly as much metal bashing as a tube
model.


The timber has to be 40mm thick and hardwood and made very well to avoid
becoming a mass
of splinters in a minor fall.

Anodized Al is fine, but you have to be extremely careful.

Anything goes for diyer, but for something I sell,
the standard is non combustible materials and all steel.
Its stronger, and cheaper than the timber/Al method, and it takes up
less room.



There are a total of 6 chokes for each channel,
and on each amp chassis there is a hand crafted heatsink to cool
resistors producing over 50 watts of heat without
becoming hot, so I have 36 square cm of aluminium area per watt.


I can see no reason at all for making chokes. They are very rarely critical
components, off the shelf products will do an excellent job 99% of the
time.SS amps require more extensive heatsinking that any tube amp that I
have ever come across


Then if you don't like chokes, don't use them.

While you are at it, dispense with the tubes entirely, and bundle a few
transistors into a box with a generic PT and a few caps, and if you had
an uncle, his name
might be Bob.

But I like chokes AND large amounts of capacitiance.
Each 845 amp has 14 x 470uF x 400 V rated electros in the B+ and B-
supplies.
Plus two x 4H chokes, plus some series 100 ohm R to avoid resonances
and get splendid filtering with only a few mV ripple in each rail.
This is extremely important in an SE amp where there is no CMRR
in the output or driver stage.
And there is only 8dB of global NFB.

Rout with this FB = 0.33 ohms.
Without global NFB its about 0.9 ohms.



Everything is hand wired onto hand made terminal strips.


With an SS amp you either have exactly the same amount of wiring, or more
usually you are up for the design and manufacture of a PCB or PCBs and then
stuffing the components onto that.


All much easier and faster, but the wiring up of an SE amp
isn't the large part of the work.

Several weeks of design work are required for every set of amps I make.

Then there is a the tweaking and OPT gap adjustment, and potting of all
OPT and PT with sand and resin.
The 4 chokes used for the two pairs of choke input dc supplies for 3.5A
to the
845 heaters are also potted in sand/resin mix to ensure their silence.

Then comes the metalwork for the covers over the transformers on the amp
chassis.
Then grilles and gurds to stop tube breakage.
These items are tough, but carefully made, so that if the amp falls off
a table it won't
bend in half. Total weight is 85 Kgs split into 4 chassis.


If a 20odd Kg chassis fell of the table, I'd be worried about the floor.


I'd be very worried if it falls onto a clients foot, or a sleeping cat,
or very concerned if it it falls onto the tail of a dozy Dobberman.

BOWSY WOWSY I bite your leg off maybe.

Such amps could fall through a timber floor onto occupants having a
meal at the dining table below.

Not my REAL concern though. Its all their fault that sort of thing.



bring up a major advantage of SS gear, you could build the equivalent at a
quarter or less weight.

Special rugged umbilical cables have been made using mobile crane
cables.

There is the active protection board in each amp chassis to guard
against tube failure or excessive
cathode current.


Same protection requirement for SS amps

There is the paintwork of the chassis covers and grilles, drilled out
guard plates
around tubes, and bottom plates and drilling out for ventilations.


Just the same for a SS amp.

I do it all without any help, except this time I had a metalworker
bend up my steel chassis and weld it all and make it nice like a Quad-II
chassis standard.
There isn't anyone I could train who'd settle for becoming an amp worker
like me.
The wages are way too low. So young men who might like to
become some sort of tradesman will choose to be an electrician or
plumber,
because its easy and very well paid, despite working in bathrooms and
toilets,
or in rat infested roof areas of houses.


Or become a programmer, the pay is good, the work is light (physically
anyway) but you do have to be mentally alert, be willing to think outside
the box, and relearn large chunks of your trade every few years.

Maybe that partially answers your question of 'why'.


As I have noted above, I don't think that it is any more complex than
designing and making a SS amp.


Man, how many 60 watt SET amps have you ever made?

Its not until you have made a pair of 300W SS amps and a pair of 60W SET
thinges that
you really learn that at least 3 times the time is needed for the tube
amps,
and even if you just buy a motely collection of trannies
and chokes made by Hammond, the costs will be twice that of the SS amp.
Cost and time per watt for SET amps is enormous.

But if you wanted 3,000 watts in PP Ab2 then a tube amp
begins to catch up with the SS amp, unless its a switching amp, or PWM.


You do choose to do many things the hard way,
and I am unconvinced that that makes the result significantly better,
certainly not in proportion to the effort involved


People here like the difference, and will pay for it.


Then it depends who you compare me to. Some chinese makers are selling
5050 Watt stereo tube4 amps on-line
and direct from the maker without western round eye arsole middlemen
for
$700.

But they are junk, and badly made.

I have owned several Japanese SS amps costing 10-20% of an ME and have
never
had the least trouble with any of them, the only reason that they have
been
replaced is to get something a little better.


Japanese amps, yes, often very good.

The Japs discovered that to woo the west they needed to
invent better quality than anything made in the west.


I worked for the Japanese for 16 years and visited Japan maybe a dozen times
in that period, my assessment was that they aren't good at thinking up new
ideas, but give them a start and they will take it to it's logical
conclusion. The Japanese home market demands absolute quality, nobody but
the poorest would even contemplate buying seconds or rejects, outlet stores
were unknown there last time I visited 10 years ago. Electronics of the same
model as is current here can often be found there at knockdown prices
because they are no longer the latest model and nobody (other than
foreigners) want them. Everbody interested in any form of electronics should
visit Akihabara at least once in their life. It is jaw dropping both for the
range of stuff available and the prices


Indeed...

People here buy second hand jap cars with low miles.....



In the 50s, after WW2, the Jap crap was allowed into Oz, and
many hated it because of Japan's attempt to ruin so many lives
during the war years. Many liked it though because it was cheaper,
had better features, but still was junk anyway.


The japs only learned to solder in the late 60s, before that a standard 8
transistor radio would have a complete roll of multicore in it and about 50
dry joints

The junk got better and better as the decades rolled on and cars and
cameras
and some electronics from Japan was pretty **** hot.


By the 80s their quality was the best in the world.

Not all though, and much stuff for export to Oz was
much below domestic quality destined for the locval Jap consumers.

But the Chinese have yet to graduate to real quality.

Mybe in another 20 years they will realise that their **** stinks just
like I know mine does.
I'll be gone of course, and won't have to worry what the **** they do.





The Real Mccoy is much more expensive.

I don't care if you make steam engines forsale. Good luck if you do.

But if you didn't have the service information about your engines, i'd
be right onto you.

If you can't service your own steam engine without help, you shouldn't be
owning one. I don't think that Watt had a web site.


But you'd need to know all about the engine parts and how they were made
and to
service it. For example if your steam engine was a 1950 made type 38
express locomotive
used on mainline express passenger routes in NSW, a manual would be
essential.
In such nice old toys, a boiler change isn't so easy to perform.

Especially without a huge pre-existing railway yard workshop
with dozens of blokes to help out.

The local Railway Historical Society has a large articulated Garrat
loco, 16 driving wheels,
4 lots of cylinders.
They have other simpler locos. They have manuals.
Books are kept on work done to each engine.


Yep, I have seen it run, even ridden behind it. I have never seen a manual
for a steam loco, I was under the impression that the knowledge to fix them
was just passed down from generation to generation.



Dig deep, and there will be a large set of drawings and a specification.

It seemed that way when
my father worked on the railways. When I have my house sorted out, I may
join the Dorrego steam museum and help restore some of the huge number of
old pieces of machinary that they own. It was great as a kid having a father
on the railway, I got to ride on the footplate of steam locos and all sorts
of cool things

I inform, and teach, and Wilson spews BS about **** all to make
himself look good. I don't care how bad I look;
I will always have time for the truth about technical issues about which
Trevor seems to have
almost no idea at all.


As I said before, that is your hobby. I have no idea what TW does with his
spare time other than to post here. As a fixer of audio gear, I don't think
that he has any obligation to explain stuff, only to be accurate when he
does choose to make statements. I just wish that either you two would come
to some agreement or else to ignore each other, the same crap repeated ad
nauseum is quite boring.


Anyone coming to the news group posing as some commercial operator and
knowall must not act like a fool.

I will give them a very torrid painful time if they behave like fools.

Its ironic that Trevor Wilson told the group I cannot tolerate fools for
longer than 1 second.
I don't toloerate his lies, bull****, and plain woeful articulation
of any technical aspect of engineering.



He cannot even explain the ME amp design in any way whatsoever which
makes
any sense to anyone.
Its all blather, artless posturing for sales and fame, but among
the few who do understand technicals, he is a clumsy minded klutz.

Trevor used to have a website, http://www.rageaudio.com.au

Its under construction. The man cannot even maintain a website any more.


Does he even want/need one?


I don't have a clue. He did have a site, and
there was no demonstration within its conetnt that he knew very much at
all.

There is the ME website at http://www.me-au.com/index.html


Not the most informative site and it contradicts itself on the availability
of the ME850HC, but it is about what I'd expect from a semi dead company.


The un-dead walk amoung us....

There is not the slightest bit of technical info.
But there is a mention there of the stack of parts Stein has for
future productions. So it does seem he purchased gear left over from
when his factory
and equipment was sold off years ago as a result of a divorce.
Perhaps his wife found him rather difficult and stubborn, obsessive, and
uncomunicative.

I doubt we will ever see a workshop manual, ever.


If you ain't seen it by now, I can't see any likelyhood of seeing it in the
future.


But they deseve the negative publicity.

I'd take a similar club to Bruce Candy of Halcro if he ever dared show
his face on the groups and try
to tell us all there was no need for a workshop manual.

That's why most CEOs and VIPs in the world of audio manufacturing avoid
the news groups like the plague.

They will deservedly get told they are arsoles because of their gross
shortcomings, over pricing,
false claims, and utter BS, and will be asked what time next week will
it be when the problems have been fixed.


They don't like the blow torch.

Patrick Turner.



Keith

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Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
roughplanet roughplanet is offline
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Posts: 126
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"roughplanet" wrote in
message

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message ...

I never read what Trevor says about ME amps or the
way transistors are matched because its all empty
sales talk and utter BS.


Is device matching more important in a power amp that
lacks loop feedback?


Unequivocally yes!


**Read the above very carefully. THIS is exactly what
I am talking about. Every tech on the planet claims to
know more about ME amplifiers than Peter Stein does.
They WILL NOT fit critically matched devices, even
when specifically instructed to do so. They will
always take the easy (cheap) way out. As a
consequence, the performance and reliability of the
product will suffer. I know. I've seen the messes
that have been created by second rate techs, who
think they know it all.


Sounds like a believable story.


To someone as thick as two short planks I'm sure it does.


Long on childish name-calling, short on relevant facts. Where did you get
your EE from, a cereal box? ;-)


Says the person who inferred that TT was a paedophile to score a point.
Pot, kettle black Arnie.

All the schematics in the world will not help, as long
as techs think they know more than Peter does about
his own product.


Well, they think that he is being hypercautious. We've
seen people like this on this thread.


I know, from my own experience, that some high Global
NFB products benefit from the use of matched devices.
In a product with no Global NFB, the importance of
matching becomes far more crucial.


Agreed.


Gawd TW, You have dug yourself a hole so deep that you
will never get out of it now, no matter what.


More mouth than brains!


Ahh.....the emergence of the Krooborg from his hole in
the ground. Church finish early this evening Arnie?


No comment Arnie?

Why not go away & have a good think about the logic, or
rather, the lack of it in what you have said, and then come back &
TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH & ONLY THE
TRUTH to the other members of this group.


If irony killed!


You'd be dead, dead, dead.


More childish name-calling, still no relevant technical comments.


And what relevant technical comments are called for to describe TW's feeble
attempt to 'baffle with BS'? He's obviously got you fooled, so your grasp of
technical facts can't be too crash hot.

You will gain at least some respect; more than if you
just keep banging away at the same old gong, which is
now badly dented & in need of replacing.


I don't think that Trevor is infallible and have crossed
swords with him many times. But, when Trevor is right
like this, Trevor deserves respect, not the derision of
fools.


And who are you that your opinion, and that's all you
have to offer, is correct?


Just a graduate engineer with 40 years of relevant experience.


Graduate from where exactly Arnie, and what type of engineering? I ask only
out of curiosity, given that the credibility of US university qualifications
varies from high to appalling. Which end do yours come from?

Trevor ISN'T right.


On the technical point, he is.


No he's not. He hasn't provided one single shred of hard evidence to
substantiate his claims regarding ME amplifiers. Why? Because there isn't
any available, or at least, none that either he or PS are prepared to make
public.

He's just a BS artiste trying to sell something that died several years
ago but won't lie down.


That's a different issue.


That's THE issue here Arnie. If you'd bothered to follow this thread from
its inception, you'd see that it was about tube amplification, something TW
knows very little about.
The very mention of SET amplifiers causes a rush of blood so forceful that
he can't control his negative reactions & immediately begins to rubbish the
piece of equipment under discussion, never mind the fact that he's never
even heard it.
A bit like yourself. Perhaps that's why you have jumped to his defence, but
only when I gave him some stick. You might even think I'm an easy mark
Arnie, but
I built my first amplifier in 1958, using KT88's. I still have it. A bit
rough, sure, but I was only 14 years old. I think they refer to that as an
'early adopter'.

How can you comment on something you know absolutely
nothing about?


You've shown me how? ;-)


Now who's using childish replies? Once again, pot, kettle, balck.

Have you ever even seen an ME amp, much
less owned one?


I don't need to own a zero loop FB SS amp to know something of their care
and feeding.


Then you haven't been reading anything TW has said. His claim is that ME
amplifiers require such careful maintenance that only he &/or PS can carry
it out!
You're all BS and blather Arnie, just like your mate TW.

I owned one of these amps Arnie, as well as the then
matching preamp, and believe me they were nothing special.


That's a different issue.


Again, it's not. See above.

But TW will no doubt tell you that I owned 'an early
model' or some such BS & so my opinion doesn't matter.


Given your inability to understand audio technology, your opinion is
geneally wrong.


Examples? One or two typos or late night mistakes & you turn them into a
sweeping generalisation, a bit like PA was so fond of doing. What did he
call them.....ahh yes, 'educated guesses'.
What do you call them Arnie? We like to call them LIES!

But the truth is, as Patrick so rightly says, that both
Peter Stein & Trevor Wilson have done very nicely out of
ME 'upgrades' & repairs, as without schematics or any
other information on which to rely, other technicians
have one hand tied behind their back.


That's a different issue.


No it's not. See above.

So put up or shut up Arnie. If you know something we
don't, then by all means tell us.


Been there, done that. You spit on it.


You've never been anywhere, much less do anything. Even that web site of
yours that you're so proud of referring to at the drop of a hat was last
edited in 2001. No wonder you're siding with TW. His ME amps are 30 years
out of date. You must feel totally overwhelmed by his performance :-).

If not, better to be thought a fool than open your mouth & prove it.
But alas, you're way past the point where anyone believes
anything you have to say, a bit like TW.


That's your problem.


No Arnie, it's yours. Most of the people here won't talk to you, and more
the fool me for even bothering. I let you out of the plonk bin in error, so
back you go.

**Be specific and I will do my best to answer.


Nice come back, Trevor!


Only to a like-minded knowall like you Arnie. The rest of
us can see through his BS, even if you can't.


I'm only addressing the technical issue of the need for careful selection
of devices in a zero loop NFB amp.


That was merely a red herring on TW's part to try & draw the heat from the
pasting he was getting for his continued defence of the indefensible.

Every fool knows that there is SOME advantage in matching devices in a zero
loop NFB amp, but TW is claiming that it's such a difficult task that only
PS can do it!
What's more, he hasn't even managed to convince anyone (apart from yourself)
that ME amps HAVE zero global NFB. I would say that they must have some
global NFB, but because there are no schematics or notes of any kind
regarding their construction available to techs, no-one knows for sure.
Not even TW, I suspect.

In closing, I have a nice linear amp on my bench at the moment. Its output
is 3 kW. If you're passing, you might like to poke a screwdriver into it.
Good night Arnie.

ruff


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roughplanet roughplanet is offline
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"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


roughplanet wrote, while he orgasmed at the thought of amplifiers,


Ohhhh..............you'd LOVE the linear amplifier that I have sitting in
my
shack at the moment Alan, all 3kW of it. Once midnight strikes, I'll turn
it
on.
Hope I don't turn into......PA :-).


Er, aim the darn thing away from PA. He's bad enough without RF
affecting him as well.

Be careful, my 300 watt narrow beam high speed Tewbuctous Ray Destroyer
has just passed all tests and can vaporize bull**** at some distance
away.


Whoooops!!! Tripped the ELCB in a flash (literally).
Back to the bench :-).

ruff




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"roughplanet" wrote in
message u
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"roughplanet" wrote in
message

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message ...

I never read what Trevor says about ME amps or the
way transistors are matched because its all empty
sales talk and utter BS.


Is device matching more important in a power amp that
lacks loop feedback?


Unequivocally yes!


**Read the above very carefully. THIS is exactly
what I am talking about. Every tech on the planet
claims to know more about ME amplifiers than Peter
Stein does. They WILL NOT fit critically matched
devices, even when specifically instructed to do
so. They will always take the easy (cheap) way out.
As a consequence, the performance and reliability
of the product will suffer. I know. I've seen the
messes that have been created by second rate techs,
who think they know it all.


Sounds like a believable story.


To someone as thick as two short planks I'm sure it
does.


Long on childish name-calling, short on relevant facts.


Says the person who inferred that TT was a paedophile to
score a point. Pot, kettle black Arnie.


What??? You're really reaching for those childish insults, TT. What
geological era are you reaching back into? Were there even dinosaurs on the
earth back then? ;-)

Where did you get your EE from, a cereal box? ;-)


No answer from TT, so we can presume that his technical knowledge of
electronics and audio is nil.

All the schematics in the world will not help, as
long as techs think they know more than Peter does
about his own product.


Well, they think that he is being hypercautious. We've
seen people like this on this thread.


I know, from my own experience, that some high
Global NFB products benefit from the use of matched
devices. In a product with no Global NFB, the
importance of matching becomes far more crucial.


Agreed.


Gawd TW, You have dug yourself a hole so deep that
you will never get out of it now, no matter what.


More mouth than brains!


Ahh.....the emergence of the Krooborg from his hole in
the ground. Church finish early this evening Arnie?


No comment Arnie?


Say something worth commenting, and I will comment on it.

Why not go away & have a good think about the logic,
or rather, the lack of it in what you have said, and
then come back & TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH &
ONLY THE TRUTH to the other members of this group.


If irony killed!


You'd be dead, dead, dead.


More childish name-calling, still no relevant technical
comments.


And what relevant technical comments are called for to
describe TW's feeble attempt to 'baffle with BS'?


I see no such attempt. I do see a tired little Terry with zero credentials
trying to dazzle us with his lame insults.

He's obviously got you fooled, so your grasp of technical
facts can't be too crash hot.


There's no fooling except by you, Terry.

You will gain at least some respect; more than if you
just keep banging away at the same old gong, which is
now badly dented & in need of replacing.


I don't think that Trevor is infallible and have
crossed swords with him many times. But, when Trevor
is right like this, Trevor deserves respect, not the
derision of fools.


And who are you that your opinion, and that's all you
have to offer, is correct?


Just a graduate engineer with 40 years of relevant
experience.


Graduate from where exactly Arnie,


Oakland University - please see their web site:

http://www.oakland.edu/

and what type of engineering?


http://www2.oakland.edu/secs/ECEdept/

I ask only out of curiosity, given that the
credibility of US university qualifications varies from
high to appalling. Which end do yours come from?


Someplace in the top quarter.

Trevor ISN'T right.


On the technical point, he is.


No he's not.


Prove it.

He hasn't provided one single shred of hard
evidence to substantiate his claims regarding ME
amplifiers.


What Trevor claims about the effects of device matching in amps with zero
loop feedback is consistent with general electrical engineering knowlege.

I should add that trying to build a high quality amplifier while
intentionally avoiding loop feedback is generally considered to be very
unwise - there has to be some very powerful explanation for trying to do
such a weird thing, and no such explantion is known to exist for audio power
amps being used in a common residential setting.

Why? Because there isn't any available, or at
least, none that either he or PS are prepared to make
public.


What Trevor claims about superior sonics due to zero loop feedback is total
BS, and it is exceptionally easy to show that sonically perfect
amplification is fairly easy to provide by common, relatively inexpensive
means.

Anybody who brags about ever owning a power amp with zero loop feedback is
basically advertising that they have paid had cash to fail a
publicly-administered intelligence test.

BTW Terry, didn't you say that you once owned a ME power amp? ;-)

He's just a BS artiste trying to sell something that
died several years ago but won't lie down.


That's a different issue.


That's THE issue here Arnie.


Then address it with a technically-sound argument. The device-matching
argument goes Trevor's way, the superior sonics issue goes against him.

If you'd bothered to follow
this thread from its inception, you'd see that it was
about tube amplification, something TW knows very little
about.


I don't think that a person doing audio in the 21st century need know much
about tubed amplification, unless perhaps they work in an electronics
museum.


The very mention of SET amplifiers causes a rush of blood
so forceful that he can't control his negative reactions
& immediately begins to rubbish the piece of equipment
under discussion, never mind the fact that he's never
even heard it.


Well, I've heard dozens of SET amplifiers. On one occasion where my ears had
been fatigued by listening to a bunch of SETs, I found the sound from a
credibly-designed PP tubed amp (by Manley) to be a real breath of fresh air.
Of course SS rules.

A bit like yourself.


I've built over a dozen tubed power amps, some scratch designs, some kits. I
still own tubed audio gear and occasionally use it. I know why tube
technology is best forgotten, out in the real world.

Perhaps that's why you have jumped
to his defence, but only when I gave him some stick.


I have to admit that I find it amusing to watch you wet your pants in
public, Terry. I'm close enough to even catch a whiff of the urine. I'll
leave the messy clean-up to other. One word for you Terry: Depends. ;-)

You might even think I'm an easy mark Arnie, but
I built my first amplifier in 1958, using KT88's.


Most of us who were using tubes for audio in 1958 learned our lesson. You
seem to be hard to teach, Terry. I guess I thus need to remind you about the
benefits of Depends.

http://www.depend.com/products/products_all.asp

I still have it. A bit rough, sure, but I was only 14 years old.
I think they refer to that as an 'early adopter'.


In 2008, we refer to continued obsession with tubes as being a "poor
learner".

How can you comment on something you know absolutely
nothing about?


You've shown me how? ;-)


Now who's using childish replies? Once again, pot,
kettle, balck.


What's a balck, Terry? ;-)

Have you ever even seen an ME amp, much
less owned one?


I don't need to own a zero loop FB SS amp to know
something of their care and feeding.


Then you haven't been reading anything TW has said. His
claim is that ME amplifiers require such careful
maintenance that only he &/or PS can carry it out!


I didn't read that. Perhaps that was because I read with my eyes, not with
my dreams.

What I do read is someone pretty well skewering Trevor over device matching
procedures.

You're all BS and blather Arnie, just like your mate TW.


As I said, I've crossed swords with Trevor over the larger issue many times.
I'm only addressing the narrow issue of device matching.

I owned one of these amps Arnie, as well as the then
matching preamp, and believe me they were nothing
special.


That's a different issue.


Again, it's not. See above.


As ADD as you seem to be Terry, I'm wasting my breath when I ask you to try
to remain focussed.

But TW will no doubt tell you that I owned 'an early
model' or some such BS & so my opinion doesn't matter.


Given your inability to understand audio technology,
your opinion is geneally wrong.


Examples?


The current discussion.

One or two typos or late night mistakes & you
turn them into a sweeping generalisation, a bit like PA
was so fond of doing. What did he call them.....ahh yes,
'educated guesses'.


I'm not defending PA, except of course when he's right, which he often is.

What do you call them Arnie? We like to call them LIES!


Terry, to lie you have to know the truth, and frankly that excuses you from
many of your more obvious public follies.

But the truth is, as Patrick so rightly says, that both
Peter Stein & Trevor Wilson have done very nicely out of
ME 'upgrades' & repairs, as without schematics or any
other information on which to rely, other technicians
have one hand tied behind their back.


That's a different issue.


No it's not. See above.


Do try to get focussed, Terry. Of course if you haven't learned it by the
time you are in your 60s, you probably never will.

So put up or shut up Arnie. If you know something we
don't, then by all means tell us.


Been there, done that. You spit on it.


You've never been anywhere, much less do anything.


Prove it.

Even
that web site of yours that you're so proud of referring
to at the drop of a hat was last edited in 2001.


Please be specific, there are two sites, and pages on both prove you wrong.
I just want to know which mistake you are making. ;-)

No wonder you're siding with TW. His ME amps are 30 years
out of date. You must feel totally overwhelmed by his
performance :-).


Terry, on the larger issue of the technical advisability of ME amps, all I
can say is that I'm proud to have never been so stupid as to actually pay
hard cash to buy one. Too bad you can't say the same!

LOL!

If not, better to be thought a fool than open your
mouth & prove it. But alas, you're way past the point
where anyone believes anything you have to say, a bit like TW.


That's your problem.


No Arnie, it's yours. Most of the people here won't talk
to you, and more the fool me for even bothering.


Most of the people here know that I'm often right and will call them up when
they aren't. Since they are often in error, I can understand why they don't
want to risk trying to correct me.

I let you out of the plonk bin in error, so back you go.


That allows me to blindside you at will, Terry.

Thanks!


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Phil Allison Phil Allison is offline
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"Arny Krueger"


What I do read is someone pretty well skewering Trevor over device
matching procedures.



** Merely skewering ????

Thought I had TW well and truly barbequed and ready for public dining.

Beware of severe indigestion - but.




...... Phil


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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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roughplanet wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"roughplanet" wrote in
message

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message ...

I never read what Trevor says about ME amps or the
way transistors are matched because its all empty
sales talk and utter BS.


Is device matching more important in a power amp that
lacks loop feedback?


Unequivocally yes!


**Read the above very carefully. THIS is exactly what
I am talking about. Every tech on the planet claims to
know more about ME amplifiers than Peter Stein does.
They WILL NOT fit critically matched devices, even
when specifically instructed to do so. They will
always take the easy (cheap) way out. As a
consequence, the performance and reliability of the
product will suffer. I know. I've seen the messes
that have been created by second rate techs, who
think they know it all.


Sounds like a believable story.


To someone as thick as two short planks I'm sure it does.


Long on childish name-calling, short on relevant facts. Where did you get
your EE from, a cereal box? ;-)


Says the person who inferred that TT was a paedophile to score a point.
Pot, kettle black Arnie.

All the schematics in the world will not help, as long
as techs think they know more than Peter does about
his own product.


Well, they think that he is being hypercautious. We've
seen people like this on this thread.


I know, from my own experience, that some high Global
NFB products benefit from the use of matched devices.
In a product with no Global NFB, the importance of
matching becomes far more crucial.


Agreed.


Gawd TW, You have dug yourself a hole so deep that you
will never get out of it now, no matter what.


More mouth than brains!


Ahh.....the emergence of the Krooborg from his hole in
the ground. Church finish early this evening Arnie?


No comment Arnie?

Why not go away & have a good think about the logic, or
rather, the lack of it in what you have said, and then come back &
TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH & ONLY THE
TRUTH to the other members of this group.


If irony killed!


You'd be dead, dead, dead.


More childish name-calling, still no relevant technical comments.


And what relevant technical comments are called for to describe TW's feeble
attempt to 'baffle with BS'? He's obviously got you fooled, so your grasp of
technical facts can't be too crash hot.

You will gain at least some respect; more than if you
just keep banging away at the same old gong, which is
now badly dented & in need of replacing.


I don't think that Trevor is infallible and have crossed
swords with him many times. But, when Trevor is right
like this, Trevor deserves respect, not the derision of
fools.


And who are you that your opinion, and that's all you
have to offer, is correct?


Just a graduate engineer with 40 years of relevant experience.


Graduate from where exactly Arnie, and what type of engineering? I ask only
out of curiosity, given that the credibility of US university qualifications
varies from high to appalling. Which end do yours come from?

Trevor ISN'T right.


On the technical point, he is.


No he's not. He hasn't provided one single shred of hard evidence to
substantiate his claims regarding ME amplifiers. Why? Because there isn't
any available, or at least, none that either he or PS are prepared to make
public.

He's just a BS artiste trying to sell something that died several years
ago but won't lie down.


That's a different issue.


That's THE issue here Arnie. If you'd bothered to follow this thread from
its inception, you'd see that it was about tube amplification, something TW
knows very little about.
The very mention of SET amplifiers causes a rush of blood so forceful that
he can't control his negative reactions & immediately begins to rubbish the
piece of equipment under discussion, never mind the fact that he's never
even heard it.
A bit like yourself. Perhaps that's why you have jumped to his defence, but
only when I gave him some stick. You might even think I'm an easy mark
Arnie, but
I built my first amplifier in 1958, using KT88's. I still have it. A bit
rough, sure, but I was only 14 years old. I think they refer to that as an
'early adopter'.

How can you comment on something you know absolutely
nothing about?


You've shown me how? ;-)


Now who's using childish replies? Once again, pot, kettle, balck.

Have you ever even seen an ME amp, much
less owned one?


I don't need to own a zero loop FB SS amp to know something of their care
and feeding.


Then you haven't been reading anything TW has said. His claim is that ME
amplifiers require such careful maintenance that only he &/or PS can carry
it out!
You're all BS and blather Arnie, just like your mate TW.

I owned one of these amps Arnie, as well as the then
matching preamp, and believe me they were nothing special.


That's a different issue.


Again, it's not. See above.

But TW will no doubt tell you that I owned 'an early
model' or some such BS & so my opinion doesn't matter.


Given your inability to understand audio technology, your opinion is
geneally wrong.


Examples? One or two typos or late night mistakes & you turn them into a
sweeping generalisation, a bit like PA was so fond of doing. What did he
call them.....ahh yes, 'educated guesses'.
What do you call them Arnie? We like to call them LIES!

But the truth is, as Patrick so rightly says, that both
Peter Stein & Trevor Wilson have done very nicely out of
ME 'upgrades' & repairs, as without schematics or any
other information on which to rely, other technicians
have one hand tied behind their back.


That's a different issue.


No it's not. See above.

So put up or shut up Arnie. If you know something we
don't, then by all means tell us.


Been there, done that. You spit on it.


You've never been anywhere, much less do anything. Even that web site of
yours that you're so proud of referring to at the drop of a hat was last
edited in 2001. No wonder you're siding with TW. His ME amps are 30 years
out of date. You must feel totally overwhelmed by his performance :-).

If not, better to be thought a fool than open your mouth & prove it.
But alas, you're way past the point where anyone believes
anything you have to say, a bit like TW.


That's your problem.


No Arnie, it's yours. Most of the people here won't talk to you, and more
the fool me for even bothering. I let you out of the plonk bin in error, so
back you go.

**Be specific and I will do my best to answer.


Nice come back, Trevor!


Only to a like-minded knowall like you Arnie. The rest of
us can see through his BS, even if you can't.


I'm only addressing the technical issue of the need for careful selection
of devices in a zero loop NFB amp.


That was merely a red herring on TW's part to try & draw the heat from the
pasting he was getting for his continued defence of the indefensible.

Every fool knows that there is SOME advantage in matching devices in a zero
loop NFB amp, but TW is claiming that it's such a difficult task that only
PS can do it!


But ruff, there are two lots of global NFB loops in ME amps.
Trevor has been lying to us about it for years.

There ain't nothing wrong with GNFB and the matching of devices
merely gilds the lilly.


What's more, he hasn't even managed to convince anyone (apart from yourself)
that ME amps HAVE zero global NFB. I would say that they must have some
global NFB, but because there are no schematics or notes of any kind
regarding their construction available to techs, no-one knows for sure.
Not even TW, I suspect.


See my other post about the ME75 schematic I do have here.

Patrick Turner.

In closing, I have a nice linear amp on my bench at the moment. Its output
is 3 kW. If you're passing, you might like to poke a screwdriver into it.
Good night Arnie.

ruff

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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Phil Allison wrote:

"Arny Krueger"

What I do read is someone pretty well skewering Trevor over device
matching procedures.


** Merely skewering ????

Thought I had TW well and truly barbequed and ready for public dining.

Beware of severe indigestion - but.


I beat you getting him on the BBQ.

He didn't wanna talk about his testing methods.

Now I have almost vaporized the body with overcooking
when i showed that an ME75 has two loops of global NFB, which of course
he queerly doesn't like, but i assure you GNFB isn't something to ever
be ashamed of
if you really wanna hear good music through transistors.

Patrick Turner.



..... Phil

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Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson"

**Correct. Just to recap:

I don't attempt to match transistors for ME repairs. I buy them from
Peter. I merely listed the above tests to show that transistors vary
wildly in Hfe.



** You have shown no such thing with a meaningless test with that
unsuitable " Peak " meter - which is clearly intended for small signal
devices.

The Hfe of high power BJTs typically falls off sharply below 100mA Ic.

The very same group of MJ15003s will likely test very close in Hfe at an
Ic of 250mA or more.


**Indeed. I made that very point earlier. For matching output devices in an
output stage, it is important to match at suitably high currents. I am still
waiting to find out if that is how Mouser match their devices. Here are some
more results form my own stock. The first column are some devices (MJ15004)
tested at 1 Amp (by Peter Stein). The second column at around 4ma (the Peak
tester):

81 79
89 85
80 77
74 71
81 77
85 81

From the above, we can see that you are correct. The gain is lower at lower
currents. Importantly, however, the gain difference appears to be similar
across all the devices. IOW: Although not an accurate indicator of Hfe at
high currents, a low current measurement may provide a rough approximation.
Which is what I was attempting to demonstrate.

Trevor Wilson


The vast amount of loop NFB used in ME amps reduces the mismatch caused
distortions
to negligible levels.

There are usually large differences in character between NPN and PNP
devices.
Its all unimportant if plenty of loop FB is applied correctly.

The matching issue is one of many issues, most of which you don't seem
to be aware of.

People will do very well to read Douglas Self and Ben Duncan on SS
amplifier operation,
and leave our Trevor to mumble to himself.

If Trevor ever designed and built an amp himself, he'd
force himself to realise what is really important,
and there would be less bull**** sprayed around the net all night.

Patrick Turner.





** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **



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Trevor Wilson wrote:

"keithr" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"keithr" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

Good transistor amps function perfectly well with wider tolerances
than
you say because of the abundance of
local and other NFB.

**"Good" is your term. not mine. I happen to feel that amplifiers which
use lots of Golbal NFB are not "good". They are average.

Trevor Wilson

Speaking as one who has never seen, heard, or even smelled an ME amp
perhaps you can clear something up for me. As I understand it the ME is
made up of several modules in the signal path. Each of these modules has
it's own feedback loop.

**Not quite. The amplifier is not all that complex. It is pretty
standard, full complementary symmetry thoughout, dual differential
inputs, with the obligatory active current sources. The Voltage amplifier
stage uses around 15dB of Global NFB to stabilise Voltage gain to the
desired level. The Voltage amp feeds the current amplifier, which uses
local feedback only (no loop, from output back to input). The output
devices are coupled to the load via the collectors, rather than the more
usual emitter follower configuration. So, no, each module does not have
it's own feedback loop. Only the Voltage amp has a feedback loop.

Assuming that the module and it's feedback path are correctly
designed and thus pass an undistorted signal to the next downstream
module, why does this require such tight tolerancing in the output
stage?

**Because there is no loop feedback around the output stage.
Additionally, the feedback that does operate, is lightly applied.

I do
assume that the ouput stage module has it's own feedback loop and is
being fed an undistorted signal.

**The output stage uses no feedback loop. All feedback is local only.
IOW: Degenerative feedback only.


Maybe a little feedback around the output stage would eliminate the need
for such close matching without changing the sound, but I suppose that in
audio, everybody has to have their own gimmick to differentiate their
product.


**There's the rub. Peter Stein did build some sample amps which used some
Global NFB. Distortion was reduced (from what was already an inaudible
level) and it would have reduced the dependence on matched devices. HOWEVER,
blind testing showed that most listeners preferred the zero Global NFB
approach. I was one of those listeners. I received two, otherwise identical,
amplifiers. I was asked to judge which I preferred over a period of several
weeks. I was not told what differences there were, nor what to expect.
Whilst the differences were not earth-shattering, they were obvious.


You are lying again trevvy boyo!

The ME75 power amp schematic I found I have does have two global NFB
loops.

The power amp is split into input diff amps and VAS stage, with GNFB,
and then that drives the Sziclai based output stage, with its separate
GNFB loop.

Just how Peter Stein ever managed to have one GNFB around both amp
sections is a mystery
because curing HF instability would have been a problem.

There are maybe hundreds of ways to configure an SS power amp.

Read Ben Duncan's 1996 book on SS amps and their historical development.

Read books Trevor, your addled brain won't fall out of your head.

I explained all the details re ME75 last night as fully as i could.

Your understanding of ME amps is totally appalling.

There is absolutely zero rational for anything you have said.

Patrick Turner.



Trevor Wilson

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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and abusing me! For the
record I haven't been anywhere near you in this thread!

I would call for an apology but I would have more chance walking on water!

How about the next time you step into a NG looking for an abuse-fest what
about you try and be a at least a little bit sober then you may realise whom
you are actually abusing?

Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"roughplanet" wrote in
message u

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message ...

I never read what Trevor says about ME amps or the
way transistors are matched because its all empty
sales talk and utter BS.


Is device matching more important in a power amp that
lacks loop feedback?


Unequivocally yes!


**Read the above very carefully. THIS is exactly
what I am talking about. Every tech on the planet
claims to know more about ME amplifiers than Peter
Stein does. They WILL NOT fit critically matched
devices, even when specifically instructed to do
so. They will always take the easy (cheap) way out.
As a consequence, the performance and reliability
of the product will suffer. I know. I've seen the
messes that have been created by second rate techs,
who think they know it all.


Sounds like a believable story.


To someone as thick as two short planks I'm sure it does.


Long on childish name-calling, short on relevant facts.


Says the person who inferred that TT was a paedophile to
score a point. Pot, kettle black Arnie.


What??? You're really reaching for those childish insults, TT. What
geological era are you reaching back into? Were there even dinosaurs on
the earth back then? ;-)


No Arnie, you can't do a TW and try to wriggle out of what you said by
moving
the goal posts. What you said was quite recent, as well you know, you
dirtbag.

Where did you get your EE from, a cereal box? ;-)


No answer from TT, so we can presume that his technical knowledge of
electronics and audio is nil.


Presume anything you like. You'll be wrong on all of your presumptions.

All the schematics in the world will not help, as long as techs
think they know more than Peter does about his own product.


Well, they think that he is being hypercautious. We've seen people
like this on this thread.


I know, from my own experience, that some high
Global NFB products benefit from the use of matched
devices. In a product with no Global NFB, the
importance of matching becomes far more crucial.


Agreed.


Gawd TW, You have dug yourself a hole so deep that
you will never get out of it now, no matter what.


More mouth than brains!


Ahh.....the emergence of the Krooborg from his hole in the ground.
Church finish early this evening Arnie?


No comment Arnie?


Say something worth commenting, and I will comment on it.


Hmmm......a bit too close to the truth, eh?

Why not go away & have a good think about the logic,
or rather, the lack of it in what you have said, and
then come back & TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH &
ONLY THE TRUTH to the other members of this group.


If irony killed!


You'd be dead, dead, dead.


More childish name-calling, still no relevant technical comments.


And what relevant technical comments are called for to
describe TW's feeble attempt to 'baffle with BS'?


I see no such attempt. I do see a tired little Terry with zero credentials
trying to dazzle us with his lame insults.


Then you are obviously dreaming Arnie.

He's obviously got you fooled, so your grasp of technical
facts can't be too crash hot.


There's no fooling except by you, Terry.


Hah hah hah.............you're the fool here Arnie.

You will gain at least some respect; more than if you
just keep banging away at the same old gong, which is
now badly dented & in need of replacing.


I don't think that Trevor is infallible and have crossed swords with
him many times. But, when Trevor is right like this, Trevor
deserves respect, not the derision of fools.


And who are you that your opinion, and that's all you have to offer, is
correct?


Just a graduate engineer with 40 years of relevant experience.


Graduate from where exactly Arnie,


Oakland University - please see their web site:


http://www.oakland.edu/


and what type of engineering?


http://www2.oakland.edu/secs/ECEdept/


I ask only out of curiosity, given that the credibility of US university
qualifications varies from high to appalling.
Which end do yours come from?


Someplace in the top quarter.


Trevor ISN'T right.


On the technical point, he is.


No he's not.


Prove it.


He hasn't provided one single shred of hard evidence to substantiate his
claims regarding ME amplifiers.


What Trevor claims about the effects of device matching in amps with zero
loop feedback is consistent with general electrical engineering knowlege.
I should add that trying to build a high quality amplifier while
intentionally
avoiding loop feedback is generally considered to be very unwise - there
has to be some very powerful explanation for trying to do such a weird
thing, and no such explantion is known to exist for audio power amps being
used in a common residential setting.


Why? Because there isn't any available, or at least, none that either he
or PS are prepared to make public.


What Trevor claims about superior sonics due to zero loop feedback is
total BS, and it is exceptionally easy to show that sonically perfect
amplification
is fairly easy to provide by common, relatively inexpensive means.


So you do agree with me. Thank you. But why have you denied it so
vehemently?

Anybody who brags about ever owning a power amp with zero loop feedback is
basically advertising that they have paid had cash to fail a
publicly-administered intelligence test.


Administered by whom, and please, don't insult my intelligence by saying
yourself. As the saying goes, self praise is no recommendation.

BTW Terry, didn't you say that you once owned a ME power amp? ;-)


No I didn't.

He's just a BS artiste trying to sell something that died several years
ago but won't lie down.


That's a different issue.


That's THE issue here Arnie.


Then address it with a technically-sound argument. The device-matching
argument goes Trevor's way, the superior sonics issue goes against him.


If you'd bothered to follow this thread from its inception, you'd see
that it was
about tube amplification, something TW knows very little about.


I don't think that a person doing audio in the 21st century need know much
about tubed amplification, unless perhaps they work in an electronics
museum.


More childish insults. Pot, kettle black yet again Arnie.

The very mention of SET amplifiers causes a rush of blood so forceful
that he can't control his negative reactions & immediately begins to
rubbish the piece of equipment under discussion, never mind the fact that
he's never
even heard it.


Well, I've heard dozens of SET amplifiers. On one occasion where my ears
had been fatigued by listening to a bunch of SETs, I found the sound from
a credibly-designed PP tubed amp (by Manley) to be a real breath of fresh
air.


Yet even more childish insults. Can't you offer anything approaching an
intelligent argument?

Of course SS rules.


Only in your tiny mind.

A bit like yourself.


I've built over a dozen tubed power amps, some scratch designs, some kits.
I still own tubed audio gear and occasionally use it. I know why tube
technology is best forgotten, out in the real world.


You know very little about a whole lot, due to the 'knowall syndrome' that
seems to afflict many technophobes. Like 'all SS amps sound the same' or
'all CD players sound the same'....hell the list just goes on & on.

Perhaps that's why you have jumped to his defence, but only when I gave
him some stick.


I have to admit that I find it amusing to watch you wet your pants in
public
Terry. I'm close enough to even catch a whiff of the urine. I'll leave
the messy clean-up to other. One word for you Terry: Depends. ;-)


I think you'll agree shortly that the urine you're smelling is your own
Arnie. Something about ****ing into the wind :-).

You might even think I'm an easy mark Arnie, but I built my first
amplifier in 1958, using KT88's.


Most of us who were using tubes for audio in 1958 learned our lesson. You
seem to be hard to teach, Terry. I guess I thus need to remind you about
the benefits of Depends.

http://www.depend.com/products/products_all.asp


I still have it. A bit rough, sure, but I was only 14 years old.
I think they refer to that as an 'early adopter'.


In 2008, we refer to continued obsession with tubes as being a "poor
learner".


'We'? The Royal Plural Arnie, or just a pompous gesture meant to infer that
you have more friends than the face in the mirror?

How can you comment on something you know absolutely
nothing about?


You've shown me how? ;-)


Now who's using childish replies? Once again, pot, kettle, balck.


What's a balck, Terry? ;-)


Wait for it Arnie.

Have you ever even seen an ME amp, much less owned one?


I don't need to own a zero loop FB SS amp to know something of their
care and feeding.


Then you haven't been reading anything TW has said. His claim is that ME
amplifiers require such careful maintenance that only he &/or PS can
carry it out!


I didn't read that.


You haven't read anything Arnie; that's your problem, but we'll get to that
shortly.

Perhaps that was because I read with my eyes, not with my dreams.


What a stupid, childish statement. Even TW wouldn't make such a silly
remark.

What I do read is someone pretty well skewering Trevor over device
matching procedures.


You're all BS and blather Arnie, just like your mate TW.


As I said, I've crossed swords with Trevor over the larger issue many
times. I'm only addressing the narrow issue of device matching.


I owned one of these amps Arnie, as well as the then matching preamp,
and believe me they were nothing special.


That's a different issue.


Again, it's not. See above.


As ADD as you seem to be Terry, I'm wasting my breath when I ask you to
try to remain focussed.


But TW will no doubt tell you that I owned 'an early
model' or some such BS & so my opinion doesn't matter.


Given your inability to understand audio technology,
your opinion is geneally wrong.


Geneally Arnie? What's that mean? See; anyone can make a typo, even you!

Examples?


The current discussion.


One or two typos or late night mistakes & you turn them into a sweeping
generalisation, a bit like PA was so fond of doing. What did he call
them.....ahh yes, 'educated guesses'.


I'm not defending PA, except of course when he's right, which he often is.


At least you've got that right. PA is almost invariably right about
technical matters, and has, of late, been remarkably tolerant of the BS that
TW & yourself have been flinging around this newsgroup.

What do you call them Arnie? We like to call them LIES!


Terry, to lie you have to know the truth, and frankly that excuses you
from many of your more obvious public follies.


And yet another sad, childish insult; the sort you accuse other people of
making.

Trevor Wilson have done very nicely out of
ME 'upgrades' & repairs, as without schematics or any
other information on which to rely, other technicians
have one hand tied behind their back.


That's a different issue.


No it's not. See above.


Do try to get focussed, Terry. Of course if you haven't learned it by the
time you are in your 60s, you probably never will.


So put up or shut up Arnie. If you know something we
don't, then by all means tell us.


Been there, done that. You spit on it.


You've never been anywhere, much less do anything.


Prove it.


Even that web site of yours that you're so proud of referring
to at the drop of a hat was last edited in 2001.


Please be specific, there are two sites, and pages on both prove you
wrong. I just want to know which mistake you are making. ;-)


Then what does this say Arnie?

Send questions or comments on the PC AV Tech Soundcard Test web pages
to Arny Krueger. (c) Copyright 1998, Arnold B. Krueger. All rights reserved.
Please let The Webmaster know of any problems you encounter on this
website.
(c) Copyright 1998, 1999 Arnold B. Krueger. All rights reserved.

HTML Design by David Carlstrom and Arny Krueger
This Page Last Revised 05/03/2000 (abk)




No wonder you're siding with TW. His ME amps are 30 years
out of date. You must feel totally overwhelmed by his performance :-).


Terry, on the larger issue of the technical advisability of ME amps, all I
can say is that I'm proud to have never been so stupid as to actually pay
hard cash to buy one. Too bad you can't say the same!
LOL!


If not, better to be thought a fool than open your mouth & prove it.
But alas, you're way past the point where anyone believes anything you
have to say, a bit like TW.


That's your problem.


No Arnie, it's yours. Most of the people here won't talk to you, and more
the fool me for even bothering.


Most of the people here know that I'm often right and will call them up
when they aren't. Since they are often in error, I can understand why they
don't want to risk trying to correct me.


I let you out of the plonk bin in error, so back you go.


That allows me to blindside you at will, Terry.
Thanks!


And thank you Arnie for proving to everybody on this newsgroup that you
really are a total dickhead who can't even tell who he's talking to.

It was me, ruff, that you were arguing with, not TT, you bird brain. And you
have the audacity to accuse 'us' of not being focused or lying. Sheeesh!

Go back to bed, you obviously need more sleep, or maybe it's the early signs
of dementia. Whatever, you've truly made a complete fool of yourself this
time Arnie, and I for one won't ever let you forget it.

ruff


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roughplanet roughplanet is offline
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Posts: 126
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)

"TT" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and abusing me! For the
record I haven't been anywhere near you in this thread!

I would call for an apology but I would have more chance walking on water!

How about the next time you step into a NG looking for an abuse-fest what
about you try and be a at least a little bit sober then you may realise
whom you are actually abusing?

Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!


Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).

ruff


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Posts: 17,262
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"Patrick Turner" wrote in message


when i showed that an ME75 has two loops of global NFB,
which of course he queerly doesn't like,


Since you have a schematic, could you post it for a day so that I could get
a copy?

but i assure you
GNFB isn't something to ever be ashamed of
if you really wanna hear good music through transistors.


From your description, Trvor's claim of zero GNFB is hanging by a tattered
thread.




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Arny Krueger wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message


when i showed that an ME75 has two loops of global NFB,
which of course he queerly doesn't like,


Since you have a schematic, could you post it for a day so that I could get
a copy?

but i assure you
GNFB isn't something to ever be ashamed of
if you really wanna hear good music through transistors.


From your description, Trvor's claim of zero GNFB is hanging by a tattered
thread.


Trevor desperately and irrationally tries to make out that because
there is no global NFB, then miraculuosly, the ME amps sound better than
all others.
He says there is only local and "de-generative" feedback, which means
the FB acts
like an unbypassed cathode R in a tube amp stage, which is local
current FB,
or like having NFB from an OPT tertiary to the cathodes of output tubes,
like Quad-II amps.
Its also local NFB, because its around only ONE DEVICE, OK.

Complementary Sziclai pairs are used in the ME output stage and depend
heavily on their NFB for their linearity,
and depend on matching by a tiny amount.

I did a quick estimate of the open loop voltage gain of the ME Sziclai
pairs and got about 300.
This is reduced by the GNFB to just under 1, so there is 50dB NFB action
going on.
So if the OLG of the BJTs was a typical 10% without any FB at all,
it is reduced to 0.03% by the NFB, ( and hardly at all because of the
matching ).

Its not unusual for the diff input pairs and VAS stage to have OLG =
20,000.
In my own 300W amps, that's what it is, and OLG Dn = about 5%, including
a large number of artifacts
because of inherent differences between PNP and NPN devices, even when
working in
true PP class A. But mainly THD is 2H and 3H, and very much similar to a
pair of pentodes
set up for high gain in PP. Matching can be as good as you could get in
the VAS stage
and there will still be high THD without NFB.

Its because there is so much gain and over the whole wave cycle that the
GNFB around
such a stage is very effective in reducing THD and other horribles.
The applied NFB reduces the OLG of 20,000 to CLG of 20, so the applied
NFB is 60dB.
So the THD of the input driver can be reduced typically from say 5% to
0.005% quite easily at 1dB below clipping.

In my amp, the rails for the input / driver are higher than those used
for the output,
so the driver does not sustain anywhere near the high THD when output
stage clipping approaches.

I have no idea how closely ME transistors are matched but because
Trevor Wilson lies and lies and lies EVERY time he opens his mouth to
the Net regarding anything technical,
every one should assume the whole claimed business of Peter Stein
spending hours and hours nit picking
over slight Hfe differences is all a load of bull****.

I have listened to music recently through a 9 year old ME850.
It was good for an SS amp. There are plenty of them around.

There are plenty of not so hot ones, mainly the budget 40 watters by
Cambridge, Creek and others.

In an AB test between a guy with ME550 and a ValveMark 8 watt SET amp
with a lone 300B,
the Valvemark seemed to have more bass presence and top end detail.

OK, the SET couldn't go very loud, but my customer at that time didn't
need loudness.
He's not deaf, and 8 watts was plenty. Sitting beside him and close to
the VAF I-66 speakers,
I could hear the validity that an SET amp TRULY AND REALLY WITHOUT
GLOBAL NEGATIVE FB
could sound very well indeed.

He waited a year trying to get a good price for his ME gear and bought
something with 300B
from a guy in the US.

A typical complementary pair NPN and PNP SS output stage operating in
near class B
is how most SS amps are set up. The Hfe of NPN and PNP at all currents
can vary
very widely, and so a darlington pair or triple is used ( Crown ) to
raise the output base input resistance so that the high collector output
resistance
of the driver stage isn't shunted.
In poor amps, this buffering isn't done, and because the Hfe is so
different,
the error signal from the VAS becomes distorted and I've seen 40% THD.
So when you should have 0.003% THD at just under clip, you get only
0.05%.

The only time the Hfe evens out to being constant right across the whole
wave cycles and
gives a constant Rin for the preceeding stage to drive
is when the output stage runs in class A, which almost nobody ever does,
or when there is sufficient buffering, see the schematic at
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/solidstateamps2bjts.html

The ME input and VAS driver stage would have a low Rout due to the
global NFB around it
and so the input R variations in the wave cycles of the output stage
would be largely overcome,
but nobody would ever know after reading the total ****ing BS that
Trevor Wilson
types each day. He simply is incapable and un-willing to analyse and
describe accurately
the detailed workings of ME amplifiers which are his favourite and on
which he is supposed to
be the local Sydney repair expert. Some expert. A Drip turned off, more
like it.

The trouble is that for some the Internet is like a soapbox, and as soon
as someone
stands on the soapbox, and gives a speach to those around them in the
park
on a fine sunday, their sense of self importance
turns all that they say to utter ****ing trash.

But I know my **** stinks at all times, and that I don't know
everything.

Trevor has yet to make these simple realizations.

Patrick Turner.
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Posts: 174
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)


"roughplanet" wrote in
message
u...
: "TT" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
:
: Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me! For the
: record I haven't been anywhere near you in this thread!
:
: I would call for an apology but I would have more chance
walking on water!
:
: How about the next time you step into a NG looking for
an abuse-fest what
: about you try and be a at least a little bit sober then
you may realise
: whom you are actually abusing?
:
: Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!
:
: Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).
:
: ruff
:
Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very nicely.

See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is an
argument looking for a venue!

Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or TW........????)



  #183   Report Post  
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roughplanet roughplanet is offline
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Posts: 126
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)

"TT" wrote in message
...

"roughplanet" wrote in
message u...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

: Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and abusing me!
: For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in this thread!
:
: I would call for an apology but I would have more chance walking
: on water!
:
: How about the next time you step into a NG looking for an abuse-fest
: what about you try and be a at least a little bit sober then you may
: realise whom you are actually abusing?
:
: Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!


: Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).


Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very nicely.

See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is an
argument looking for a venue!

Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or TW........????)


It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling for an argument, so
anyone will do.

But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll drop out of site for
a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a total idiot he made of
himself.
Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action again, but I doubt
it.

All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they can never lose an
argument, never be wrong & never make a mistake.
Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's probably sitting in his
kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along & pat him on the
head.

What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his fellow churchgoers
can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the day when he actually
turns the other cheek so someone can king hit the prick whilst the rest of
the congregation clap furiously:-).

ruff


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TT TT is offline
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Posts: 174
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)


"roughplanet" wrote in
message
u...
: "TT" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "roughplanet" wrote in
: message
u...
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
:
: : Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me!
: : For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in
this thread!
: :
: : I would call for an apology but I would have more
chance walking
: : on water!
: :
: : How about the next time you step into a NG looking
for an abuse-fest
: : what about you try and be a at least a little bit
sober then you may
: : realise whom you are actually abusing?
: :
: : Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!
:
: : Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).
:
: Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very
nicely.
:
: See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
: haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is
an
: argument looking for a venue!
:
: Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or
TW........????)
:
: It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling
for an argument, so
: anyone will do.
:
: But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll
drop out of site for
: a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a
total idiot he made of
: himself.
: Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action
again, but I doubt
: it.
:
: All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they
can never lose an
: argument, never be wrong & never make a mistake.
: Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's
probably sitting in his
: kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along
& pat him on the
: head.
:
: What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his
fellow churchgoers
: can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the day
when he actually
: turns the other cheek so someone can king hit the prick
whilst the rest of
: the congregation clap furiously:-).
:
: ruff
:
And I thought you didn't know him very well ;-)

When I get home tonight I just may copy the post across to
RAO so the rest of his "mates" can see what an idiot he is
:-))

Cheers Terry


  #185   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Trevor Wilson[_2_] Trevor Wilson[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 724
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)


"TT" wrote in message
. au...

"roughplanet" wrote in
message
u...
: "TT" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "roughplanet" wrote in
: message
u...
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
:
: : Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me!
: : For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in
this thread!
: :
: : I would call for an apology but I would have more
chance walking
: : on water!
: :
: : How about the next time you step into a NG looking
for an abuse-fest
: : what about you try and be a at least a little bit
sober then you may
: : realise whom you are actually abusing?
: :
: : Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!
:
: : Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).
:
: Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very
nicely.
:
: See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
: haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is
an
: argument looking for a venue!
:
: Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or
TW........????)
:
: It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling
for an argument, so
: anyone will do.
:
: But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll
drop out of site for
: a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a
total idiot he made of
: himself.
: Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action
again, but I doubt
: it.
:
: All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they
can never lose an
: argument, never be wrong & never make a mistake.
: Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's
probably sitting in his
: kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along
& pat him on the
: head.
:
: What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his
fellow churchgoers
: can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the day
when he actually
: turns the other cheek so someone can king hit the prick
whilst the rest of
: the congregation clap furiously:-).
:
: ruff
:
And I thought you didn't know him very well ;-)

When I get home tonight I just may copy the post across to
RAO so the rest of his "mates" can see what an idiot he is
:-))


**You could post the whole thread. Pretty much everyone involved can hang
their head in shame. I doubt anyone can remotely claim the high ground. I
found Patrick's unprovoked attack on Peter Wieck was particularly shameful
and quite offensive.

Trevor Wilson




  #186   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
atec77[_2_] atec77[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"TT" wrote in message
. au...
"roughplanet" wrote in
message
u...
: "TT" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "roughplanet" wrote in
: message
u...
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
:
: : Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me!
: : For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in
this thread!
: :
: : I would call for an apology but I would have more
chance walking
: : on water!
: :
: : How about the next time you step into a NG looking
for an abuse-fest
: : what about you try and be a at least a little bit
sober then you may
: : realise whom you are actually abusing?
: :
: : Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!
:
: : Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).
:
: Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very
nicely.
:
: See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
: haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is
an
: argument looking for a venue!
:
: Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or
TW........????)
:
: It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling
for an argument, so
: anyone will do.
:
: But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll
drop out of site for
: a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a
total idiot he made of
: himself.
: Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action
again, but I doubt
: it.
:
: All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they
can never lose an
: argument, never be wrong & never make a mistake.
: Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's
probably sitting in his
: kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along
& pat him on the
: head.
:
: What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his
fellow churchgoers
: can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the day
when he actually
: turns the other cheek so someone can king hit the prick
whilst the rest of
: the congregation clap furiously:-).
:
: ruff
:
And I thought you didn't know him very well ;-)

When I get home tonight I just may copy the post across to
RAO so the rest of his "mates" can see what an idiot he is
:-))


**You could post the whole thread. Pretty much everyone involved can hang
their head in shame. I doubt anyone can remotely claim the high ground. I
found Patrick's unprovoked attack on Peter Wieck was particularly shameful
and quite offensive.

Trevor Wilson


Not even a good red herring twevy , you should stop posting for a while
until your residuals dissolve .
  #187   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)



atec77 wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"TT" wrote in message
. au...
"roughplanet" wrote in
message
u...
: "TT" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "roughplanet" wrote in
: message
u...
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
:
: : Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me!
: : For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in
this thread!
: :
: : I would call for an apology but I would have more
chance walking
: : on water!
: :
: : How about the next time you step into a NG looking
for an abuse-fest
: : what about you try and be a at least a little bit
sober then you may
: : realise whom you are actually abusing?
: :
: : Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!
:
: : Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).
:
: Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very
nicely.
:
: See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
: haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is
an
: argument looking for a venue!
:
: Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or
TW........????)
:
: It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling
for an argument, so
: anyone will do.
:
: But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll
drop out of site for
: a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a
total idiot he made of
: himself.
: Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action
again, but I doubt
: it.
:
: All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they
can never lose an
: argument, never be wrong & never make a mistake.
: Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's
probably sitting in his
: kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along
& pat him on the
: head.
:
: What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his
fellow churchgoers
: can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the day
when he actually
: turns the other cheek so someone can king hit the prick
whilst the rest of
: the congregation clap furiously:-).
:
: ruff
:
And I thought you didn't know him very well ;-)

When I get home tonight I just may copy the post across to
RAO so the rest of his "mates" can see what an idiot he is
:-))


**You could post the whole thread. Pretty much everyone involved can hang
their head in shame. I doubt anyone can remotely claim the high ground. I
found Patrick's unprovoked attack on Peter Wieck was particularly shameful
and quite offensive.
Trevor Wilson


Peter would have returned fire if he thought I'd been offensive to him.

In case Trevor hasn't noticed, I'm about the most tolerant and liberal
minded
of posters here, and one whose inputs on technical issues often more
than everyone else put together.

But I don't tolerate fools easily when they are stubbornly in fool mode.

So, I am quite serene and peaceful knowing Trevor is offended and
challenged
when he operates in bull****ting mode. He asks for it and I give it.



Not even a good red herring twevy , you should stop posting for a while
until your residuals dissolve .


Yeah, maybe he'd have time to build a website and display how much he
knows about ME amps,
which would involve having ME schematics on display.

Pigs will learn the secrets of porcine flight before then I fear.

But without a publically accessible set of schematics for ME amps,
people should assume
EVERYTHING TREVOR WILSON SAYS ABOUT ME AMPS TO BE A PILE OF
LIES AND BULL****.

Glad I **SHOUTED** !!!

Patrick Turner.
  #188   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
roughplanet roughplanet is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default Tube/Valve Amp Noise (attention Alan and Iain)

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

atec77 wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"TT" wrote in message
. au...

"roughplanet" wrote in message
u...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Hey dumb arse, you were talking to roughplanet and
abusing me!
For the record I haven't been anywhere near you in
this thread!

I would call for an apology but I would have more chance walking
on water!

How about the next time you step into a NG looking for an
abuse-fest
what about you try and be a at least a little bit sober then you may
realise whom you are actually abusing?

Note: this is TT and *NOT* Ruff!


Spoil sport!!! See my post below :-).


Very good Ruff :-)) You were reeling him in very nicely.

See how I can get abused by this terminal idiot and I
haven't been near him for a month! All this arsehole is
an argument looking for a venue!

Cheers Terry (or am I Ruff today, or Alan or TW........????)


It doesn't matter who you are, the fool is just spoiling
for an argument, so anyone will do.

But watch his behavior now. If he's true to form, he'll drop out
of site for a month until (he hopes) people have forgotten what a
total idiot he made of himself.
Alternatively, this post might just stir him into action again, but I
doubt it.

All these control freaks behave in the same manner; they
can never lose an argument, never be wrong & never make
a mistake.
Arnie has just failed on all three counts, so he's probably sitting
in his kennel licking his balls & hoping someone will come along
& pat him on the head.

What a sad, self-opiniated bugger he is. I bet even his fellow
churchgoers can't stand the sight of him, and look forward to the
day when he actually turns the other cheek so someone can
king hit the prick whilst the rest of the congregation clap
furiously:-).


And I thought you didn't know him very well ;-)

When I get home tonight I just may copy the post across to
RAO so the rest of his "mates" can see what an idiot he is :-))


**You could post the whole thread. Pretty much everyone involved can hang
their head in shame. I doubt anyone can remotely claim the high ground. I
found Patrick's unprovoked attack on Peter Wieck was particularly
shameful
and quite offensive.


Huh? I must have missed that , or it was so innocuous it wasn't worth
mentioning. Drawing the heat again TW?

Peter would have returned fire if he thought I'd been offensive to him.
In case Trevor hasn't noticed, I'm about the most tolerant and liberal
minded of posters here, and one whose inputs on technical issues
often more than everyone else put together.

But I don't tolerate fools easily when they are stubbornly in fool mode.

So, I am quite serene and peaceful knowing Trevor is offended and
challenged when he operates in bull****ting mode. He asks for it and
I give it.


Not even a good red herring twevy , you should stop posting for a while
until your residuals dissolve .


Yeah, maybe he'd have time to build a website and display how much he
knows about ME amps, which would involve having ME schematics on
display.

Pigs will learn the secrets of porcine flight before then I fear.

But without a publically accessible set of schematics for ME amps,
people should assume EVERYTHING TREVOR WILSON SAYS ABOUT ME AMPS TO BE
A PILE OF LIES AND BULL****.
Glad I **SHOUTED** !!!


ME TOO (pun intended) :-).

ruff


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