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#1
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage. I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up? Thanks in advance, David F. Cox |
#2
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
On Jul 26, 5:26*pm, "David F. Cox"
wrote: I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? David, it's always a crapshoot trying to use a single pair of speakers to fill a room with music loud enough to make you feel like dancing and not kill the people close to them. And it being dual use means you have to compromise. You're correct that a headband mounted mic is less prone to feedback, but it still can be an issue enough to cause a problem if the speakers are set up in the worst possible place. The trick is to find a good compromise, where they're away from the closest dancers, not so close to the teacher that it kills him or feeds back, while filling the room with sound. Maybe spreading the speakers way off to the sides will be enough. Put them anywhere where dancers don't get too close. Not sure about having them at the back on the stage, though. The sound might take several odd transformations (curtains, 50 foot stage ceiling, etc) on the way out to the dance floor if they're too far back. And as far as mounting them higher, yep, that's why whenever you see a wedding band with a single pair of loudspeakers they put them on tripods. There are a few positioning options to try. Most are taking 4 steps forward and one back, but that's the nature of the beast. : ) You may find the best solution, if the music needs to be loud and it's a big, packed room, is to run another pair of speakers in the back of the room and then you can have less volume coming out of either pair by themselves. |
#3
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om... I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage. I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? To some extent, yes, if the teacher knows what s/he is doing. But it still can be an issue. Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and it's two more to set up and power. That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? Perhaps, but if the speakers are loud then there may be feedback problems. Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up? Get, read and digest the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. Peace, Paul |
#4
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"David F. Cox" wrote in ...
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage. I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? The possibility of feedback always increases when the microphone(s) are active within the coverage area of the speaker(s). Makes no difference whether the mic(s) are wireless. Working an open mic in front of the speakers is never a good solution. Having the microphone very close to the talker's mouth DOES decrease the possibility of feedback, but not completely. That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? Not really a very good solution to your presenting symptoms. Moving the speakers up stage will decrease the sound levels in the back of the hall proportionally to the reduction at the front of the hall. Better if they used an additional set (or two) of speakers to more evenly cover the dance floor without blasting the people closest to the one set of speakers. |
#5
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:26:09 GMT, "David F. Cox"
wrote: I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage. I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up? Thanks in advance, David F. Cox -- If this can be if any help, I remember when I ran a discotheque in the nearby hotel (and that has been realy long ago), I had chosen a four loudspeaker setup, wall overhead mounted, at some 2 meters height. The front loudspeakers were flush mounted to the dancing floor and the rear ones were spaced a meter or two more but tilted somewhat to the center of the dancing floor. The dancing floor and thus the sound field of interest was rectangular. The floor and walls of the discotheque was permanently lined with carpets. Thus the dancing area has been well covered by the sound while wall reflections were nil. Of course, I didnt' have to worry about microphone feedback but later I had an interesting issue with the phono pickup feedback, first I had 4 Jensen Model 24 loudspeakers which were just right to the task but later there were replaced by quite bigger, Jensen Model 25 ones. Now, they proved to be less optimal as they produced lower bass, which was less noticeable but they also introduced phono cartridge feedback due to vibration! (the turntables were placed on a thick wood board but should have been mounted on permanent concrete or brick pillars, though). As to the microphone feedback which might occur, it depends on how loud the music is firstly. It is really not important that the dancing music should be so loud as in discotheques of _today_. It is always a bad practice to constantly crank up the volume during the night as the ears normally adapt to the loud sounds and are costantly asking for more. This shouldn't be allowed. I am almost certain that nobody would ask for more if the sound level is set at a confortable level of some 85 -- 90 dB and kept so. As to the wireless microphones, placed close to the mouth, I think that they are less prone to feedback (if made well) as they can be made less sensitive and the membranes are much smaller. Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro,aus.hi-fi,rec.music.classical
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message ... article , "David F. Cox" wrote: I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"? Haahahahahahaha http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/ "I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing." Robert Morein Dresher, PA (310) 237-6511 (215) 646-4894 Get a life you cross posting ****head. If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original NG(s). Don't post your **** here. Get the message? |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
On 2008-07-27, Paul Stamler wrote:
Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and it's two more to set up and power. Dance classes and events I've been involved in have used both these techniques - speakers on stands at the front, or speakers on all 4 corners facing in. No need for stereo image in this stuff! We've also done good dance sessions in a village hall type space with a boom box. With people keen on dance you don't need much volume. It depends on the audience. Modern Jive may be noisier than ballroom though and volume on some dances can help. - Richard |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... "David F. Cox" wrote in message om... I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage. I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to the teachers mouth. Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be no feedback problem? To some extent, yes, if the teacher knows what s/he is doing. But it still can be an issue. Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and it's two more to set up and power. That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing closer? Perhaps, but if the speakers are loud then there may be feedback problems. Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up? Get, read and digest the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. Peace, Paul Thanks for all of your responses.* I see that there is a DVD video update of the book at around $30. It seems to me that this could be a good investment for the company to pass around its DJs. Buying dozens more sets of speakers that have to be wired up around the halls is not a likely option. Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the DJs do not use trpodes from laziness. From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory? David F. Cox * Even the gay jibe gives me an excuse to spam the group http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JQs4yZqqRss Some of us suffer for our art. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
David F. Cox wrote:
From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory? If you're seeing a vertical dispersion pattern that's not symmetrical around a line pointing out from the speaker, and has more energy going downwards than upwards, then yes. Modern speaker manufacturers are trying to aim the energy downward to reduce the amount that bounces off the ceiling. This is why it's common to put such speakers up on stands so nobody is standing directly in front of them. If you put then at ear level and tilt them upward, you'll be putting the blast pretty much straight out and right into the ears of those nearby. The idea of getting speakers up in the air is that with the speaker at the apex of a triangle with the two sides reaching the front and back of the listening area, those two sides will be roughly equal in length, and therefore will carry about the same amount of energy. You still want the speakers up front, so you'll never reach the ideal case of an isosceles triangle but they closer you come, the more even the energy distribution is, assuming that the radiation pattern of the speaker is fairly even over the angle at the apex. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#10
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message newse0jk.217$rb5.56@trnddc04... David F. Cox wrote: From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory? If you're seeing a vertical dispersion pattern that's not symmetrical around a line pointing out from the speaker, and has more energy going downwards than upwards, then yes. Modern speaker manufacturers are trying to aim the energy downward to reduce the amount that bounces off the ceiling. This is why it's common to put such speakers up on stands so nobody is standing directly in front of them. If you put then at ear level and tilt them upward, you'll be putting the blast pretty much straight out and right into the ears of those nearby. The idea of getting speakers up in the air is that with the speaker at the apex of a triangle with the two sides reaching the front and back of the listening area, those two sides will be roughly equal in length, and therefore will carry about the same amount of energy. You still want the speakers up front, so you'll never reach the ideal case of an isosceles triangle but they closer you come, the more even the energy distribution is, assuming that the radiation pattern of the speaker is fairly even over the angle at the apex. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) Thanks. It appears that I should have had more faith in the speaker designers. David |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro,aus.hi-fi,rec.music.classical
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message ... "Soundhaspriority" wrote in message ... article , "David F. Cox" wrote: I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"? Haahahahahahaha http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/ "I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing." Robert Morein Dresher, PA (310) 237-6511 (215) 646-4894 Get a life you cross posting ****head. If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original NG(s). Don't post your **** here. Get the message? **You need to ignore McCarty, not encourage him. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro,aus.hi-fi,rec.music.classical
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
... "Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message ... "Soundhaspriority" wrote in message ... article , "David F. Cox" wrote: I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by general dancing. What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"? Haahahahahahaha http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/ "I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing." Robert Morein Dresher, PA (310) 237-6511 (215) 646-4894 Get a life you cross posting ****head. If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original NG(s). Don't post your **** here. Get the message? **You need to ignore McCarty, not encourage him. Absolutely. He's been quite active of late, so just let his posts fall in a heap, a bit like Bwian himself :-). ruff -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
#13
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om... Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the DJs do not use trpodes from laziness. You don't really want the speakers facing outwards; instead, you want them fairly far apart and facing inwards. That minimizes wall reflections, a good thing. Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another reason to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is much less likely to cause toppling.) From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory? Possibly, but if there's a low ceiling you may just exacerbate reflection problems. When there are more room reflections, there's more muddle, and the instructor's voice is less intelligible. This is one of those places where you need to experiment and see what works in a particular room, but always err on the side of keeping sound *off* the walls. Peace, Paul |
#14
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:09:19 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote: ------------------------8------------------------------------ Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another reason to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is much less likely to cause toppling.) Yes one has to be careful with mounting gear. See this -- I find it not funny and I'm sorry for the guy. It is really a typical no-no microphone stand position at dance events. This is the second accident of this kind I've seen on Youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SndGtCnDFrg Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia ---------------------------------------8-------------------- |
#15
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... "David F. Cox" wrote in message om... Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the DJs do not use trpodes from laziness. You don't really want the speakers facing outwards; instead, you want them fairly far apart and facing inwards. That minimizes wall reflections, a good thing. Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another reason to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is much less likely to cause toppling.) From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory? Possibly, but if there's a low ceiling you may just exacerbate reflection problems. When there are more room reflections, there's more muddle, and the instructor's voice is less intelligible. This is one of those places where you need to experiment and see what works in a particular room, but always err on the side of keeping sound *off* the walls. Peace, Paul Thanks. I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers. Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the winding the cable around the bottom sounds good in general. David F. Cox |
#16
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om... I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers. Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the winding the cable around the bottom sounds good in general. It works on mic stands too. There the issue usually isn't killing the customers, but rather killing the microphone. Peace, Paul |
#17
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Speaker setup for dance lessons and dance.
"Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... "David F. Cox" wrote in message om... I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers. Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the winding the cable around the bottom sounds good in general. It works on mic stands too. There the issue usually isn't killing the customers, but rather killing the microphone. Peace, Paul There are times when you want the microphone to die ... ----- One of the worst two seconds of my life was seeing a three year old run away from mom during setting-up for a song contest. She caught in a cable and pulled a tripod mounted speaker off a small podium towards her. Luckily a leg came off the podium and it twisted away from her.It did one of the guys pursuing her that caught it no good at all. They could not have saved her if it had continued its initial trajectory. |
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