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Value of KLH speakers?



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 3rd 10, 10:33 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
dizzy
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Posts: 652
Default Value of KLH speakers?

David Nebenzahl wrote:

>Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


What, you have a sheet of carpet hanging from the ceiling, to block
the sound from getting directly from the speaker to your head?

Sheesh. Let's engage our brains, here.

(Hopefully no one will be so stupid to "inform" me about reflections.
We don't "need" reflections from walls and floors to hear a
loudspeaker.)

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  #22  
Old September 3rd 10, 10:40 PM posted to rec.audio.tech
dizzy
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Posts: 652
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Bill Graham wrote:

>All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,


It need not be bolted-down, of course.

>and all the other speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a
>fantastic sound system.


Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.

  #23  
Old September 6th 10, 05:49 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Bill Graham wrote:
>
> "Eeyore" m> wrote in
> message ...
>> Bill Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> "Eeyore" m> wrote in
>>> message ...
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I hesitate to elevate speakers that were designed to be floor
>>>>> standers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lowest octave response of speakers is designed for aq certain
>>>>> space that they work into. Some speakers are desgned for what is
>>>>> known as a half-space, such as on a wall or in the middle of a
>>>>> floor. Others are designed for a quarter-space such as the middle
>>>>> of a corner or near a floor or a ceiling. A few speakers are
>>>>> designed for use in either a full space - suspended in the middle
>>>>> of free space or an eigth-space which would be in a corner at the
>>>>> floor or the ceiling. Using a speaker in a space other than the
>>>>> one that it was properly designed can reasonably be expected to
>>>>> produce incorrect bass response.
>>>>
>>>> You hit the nail on the head, however I doubt that more than a tiny
>>>> fraction of users understand the 'space' issue, e.g.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_space
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>
>>> I have a friend whose house if full of small speakers about 6 inches
>>> in diameter....He's got at least two of them in every room. He has
>>> one huge woofer that's hidden behind and below the TV in his living
>>> room.....I think it may be bolted to the floor, because you can hear
>>> the whole house shake if the music contains the lows to do it. It
>>> really made me re evaluate my own thoughts on speakers....All you
>>> really need is one good bolted down woofer, and all the other
>>> speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a fantastic
>>> sound system.

>>
>> Not if you want to hear any stereo content in the bass region.
>>
>> Graham

>
> That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo
> content in the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so if
> it exists, it is probably hard to hear.


Depends on the music source. Modern electronic rock / pop music is
likely to have more stereo bass content than an orchestra I'd suspect.

The big misunderstanding about bass is the myth that it is all
omnidirectional.

More correctly, the cabinet radiation at low frequencies is nearly
omnidirectional but that is an entirely different matter from the
content of the source and yes it IS audible.

Graham
  #24  
Old September 6th 10, 05:51 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Michael Black wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Bill Graham wrote:
>
>> That is, (of course) true, but I don't think there IS much stereo
>> content in the bass region.....At least, I don't seem to hear any, so
>> if it exists, it is probably hard to hear.

> It depends on how you define "bass".
>
> The point of subwoofers was to provide that extra low frequency coverage.
> You'd have regular speakers, and then for the even lower frequencies, ie
> lower than good speakers provide, one subwoofer would handle those
> frequencies, and yes, down there it's non-directional.
>
> The concept has been mangled in recent years, with the coming of "computer
> speakers" and "surround sound speaker systems". There, at least in the
> low range, the small speakers won't give much bass, and the "subwoofer"
> is too small to provide extended bass. They are using the "subwoofer"
> to cover what normal speakers would provide, normal "bass". And thus
> except if you spend lots of money, it ruins the whole concept. I've
> seen bigger woofers in "bookshelf" speakers than a lot of those low end
> "subwoofers" and the boxes they are in aren't much better.


'Mangled' is a good description of the state of affairs.

Graham
  #25  
Old September 6th 10, 05:57 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "David Nebenzahl" > wrote in message
> .com
>> On 8/26/2010 5:55 PM Eeyore spake thus:
>>
>>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/22/2010 4:53 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
>>>>
>>>>> They were intended to be floor-standing, check the
>>>>> classic speaker pages ads:
>>>> Yes, I know that; it's just that they'd probably sound
>>>> better off the floor
>>> What makes you think that ?

>> Intuition.
>>
>> Granted, I don't have the technical knowledge about audio
>> that you and others here do, so I'm not looking to start
>> an argument here. It's just that to me, it seems
>> counterintuitive to place any speaker on the floor and
>> expect good results.


Speaker behaviour at low frequencies is HIGHLY influenced by placement.
At one time extended bass response was made popular by 'corner loading'
which is a "1/8th space environment" e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-space

>
> To you.
>
> Speakers that are designed to be floor standing should be used that way.
>
>> I remember the advice given back in
>> the 70s and 80s: get those speakers off the floor!

>
> That applied to speakers designed for bookshelf installation.
>
>> It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
>> low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
>> close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
>> up--would suffer from such placement.

>
> Not suffer, be changed.
>
>> Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
>> covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
>> be good for *any* speakers.

>
> Simply not true.
>
>> I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong here. It just
>> has never seemed like a good idea to me to put speakers
>> on the floor, and I was frankly surprised to run across
>> this specimen of KLH speaker which was obviously designed
>> for that very placement.

>
> That's the key - speakers need to be designed for specific postitioning, and
> end-users need to make that one criteria for acquisition.


Very much agreed.

Graham
  #26  
Old September 6th 10, 06:02 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 8/29/2010 5:27 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
>> "David Nebenzahl" > wrote
>>
>>> It seems to me (again, my untutored intuition) that while
>>> low frequencies would project fine with a woofer placed
>>> close to the floor, anything higher--say, 400 Hz
>>> up--would suffer from such placement.

>>
>> Not suffer, be changed.

>
> So it's possible that mid to high frequencies might be enhanced by floor
> placement?


Enhanced ? What is your idea of 'enhancememt' ? It all depends on the
physical construction of the speaker.

> Bass I can see.
>
>>> Of course, much depends on many factors: the floor
>>> covering, room geometry, etc., etc. Carpeted floors can't
>>> be good for *any* speakers.

>>
>> Simply not true.

>
> Really? Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?


Who said the floor was carpeted ?

Most studio control rooms I encounter have wooden floors ! I wonder why ?

Graham
  #27  
Old September 6th 10, 06:05 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

dizzy wrote:
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> Carpet doesn't "eat up" high frequencies?

>
> What, you have a sheet of carpet hanging from the ceiling, to block
> the sound from getting directly from the speaker to your head?
>
> Sheesh. Let's engage our brains, here.
>
> (Hopefully no one will be so stupid to "inform" me about reflections.
> We don't "need" reflections from walls and floors to hear a
> loudspeaker.)


Have you ever been in an anechoic room ? It's truly 'weird'.

Graham
  #28  
Old September 6th 10, 06:21 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> Ever hear of electronic equalizers? You can make some headway along the
> lines of restoring balance with them.


Funny you should say that. I've been developing an ultra-accurate
electronic crossover for studio use in combination with a studio
installation company and the first additional request was for an
integrated parametric EQ ( now designed and retrofitted ).

Graham
  #29  
Old September 6th 10, 06:24 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

Randy Yates wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > writes:
>> [...]
>> Speakers that were designed by competent engineers usually sound best when
>> they are installed and used as intended.

>
> That's generally good advice. The problem is, there are
> several variables in actual installations that may not
> match what the engineer intended and which are not easy
> to change, a good example being hardwood floors instead
> of some assumed carpet.


Very true.

> But this dialog has brought up a thought: why aren't there
> (at least some) speakers that adapt to their installation?
> I can imagine a wireless sensor being provided with the
> speakers that is placed at or near the listening position
> and with which the speaker system can measure important
> parameters of it's surroundings and attempt to compensate.


A speaker expert friend of mine has had good results with programmable
equalisers driven by a response correction program on a PC. Only works
best for one listening position of course.

Graham
  #30  
Old September 6th 10, 06:26 AM posted to rec.audio.tech
Eeyore[_4_]
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Posts: 29
Default Value of KLH speakers?

dizzy wrote:
> Bill Graham wrote:
>
>> All you really need is one good bolted down woofer,

>
> It need not be bolted-down, of course.
>
>> and all the other speakers can be small and relatively cheap, and you get a
>> fantastic sound system.

>
> Sure. The amplifiers for the "main" speakers can be smaller as well.
> Subwoofers can be the way to go, in many, if not most, situations.


Ahhhhhh, the fetid smell of the omnidirectional bass myth.

Graham
 




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