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Bill Graham Bill Graham is offline
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"GregS" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill Graham"
wrote:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote:

I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD
either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no
difference
between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical
purposes anyway.

Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard in stereo.
Wavelength for a 50hz wave is 22'. Let it bounce off the near walls and
it will definately not be stereo by the time it reaches the listener.

If you can hear where sound is coming from your subs, it is because of
harmonics above about 80-100hz.




Not sure how relevant this is to your discussion, but I play a trumpet,
and
I amplify my sound sometimes, so I can use special effects, and I have to
cut off anything below about 100 Hz, in order to eliminate the valve clunk
I
get when my valves return to their highest, "relaxed" position.....There
is
a lot of low frequency noise in any recorded band. Not just valve "clunk",
but guitar fretboard noise and other stuff like that.....I can get rid of
most of it with a low cut filter, but not all of it.....


I used to try and play trumpet. You could cut it off way higher I'm sure.

I have in the past used signal generators and try to find how high before
localization occurs. 70 Hz and below is pretty safe. Even my cheap signal
generator has .5% distortion, but my old HP does way better. Any
little noise can be localized, especially woofer wind or basket noise.


greg


Yes, I could cut it higher, but I notice a lot of devices have a built-in
filter that cuts the lows off at around 80 to 100 Hz, and, since there is no
music below there, that's about where I have my gate set....It's just that a
lot of devices and microphones advertize good frequency response down to
below 50 Hz, and I wonder why anyone would pay any significant amount of
extra money to buy such a device, when all you get at those frequencies is
noise anyway? AC hum is 60 Hz, and nobody would want to amplify
that.....Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms......It's just that when you are trying
to maximize your performance per unit dollar, you sometimes think about
these things.....I have five cats who can, (I'm sure) hear sounds in the
over 10 KHz range, but they don't appreciate most of the music I mess
with....:^)

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Bill Graham wrote:

.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics

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On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz.
There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.

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"dizzy" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was
younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference
between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic reproductive
device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think
that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.)
So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from
the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any
program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk
right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise.

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On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote:

....
device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think
that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.)
So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from
the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any
program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk
right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise.


I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing
seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the
app is "Teen Repellant"


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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote:

...
device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think
that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.)
So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from
the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any
program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk
right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise.


I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing
seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the
app is "Teen Repellant"


One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes
when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can hear
that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and blow that
whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes.....

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AZ Nomad wrote in
:

snip

Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally
deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information'
between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.


According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will
hear about half of that "noise".

I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference
between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20-
20K.


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 9/9/2010 5:24 PM Bill Graham spake thus:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham
wrote:
...
device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused,
and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually
something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly,
when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on
the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the
TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up
immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise.


I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is
amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name
of the app is "Teen Repellant"


One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes
when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can hear
that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and blow that
whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes.....


10 or 15 minutes? How old is that cat?

D "my late cat Oscar lived to be almost 20" Neb


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message


On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy
wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8
Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that
operate much above that, either, but that's a whole
different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up
that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics
above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are
totally deaf above 15khz.


Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud
enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15 KHz.

There really isn't much
information' between 10 and 20khz.


That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble choice
of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably detected.
And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to masking, not a
raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high.

Just noise.


No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet
with a Harmon mute comes to mind.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm


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On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote in
:


snip


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally
deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information'
between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.


According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will
hear about half of that "noise".


I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference
between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20-
20K.


That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is going to be a
serious piece of **** and have all kinds of distortion, and difference
in frequency response well below 10K.






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AZ Nomad wrote in
:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote in

:


snip


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are
totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much
information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.


According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25
will hear about half of that "noise".


I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the
difference between something that is 20-*TEN*K and
something that is 20- 20K.


That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is
going to be a serious piece of **** and have all kinds of
distortion, and difference in frequency response well below
10K.


I have good equipment, ProAc speakers, and I am talking about
the RECORDING, not the /equipment it is played on/ to begin
with!


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 9/9/2010 5:24 PM Bill Graham spake thus:

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham
wrote:
...
device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and
think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually
something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly,
when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on
the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the
TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up
immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise.

I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is
amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name
of the app is "Teen Repellant"


One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes
when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can
hear that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and
blow that whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes.....


10 or 15 minutes? How old is that cat?

D "my late cat Oscar lived to be almost 20" Neb


B-K will be 7 this Thanksgiving. He is very gregarious, and knows most of
the neighbors....He spends time in all their houses, and so he might have to
wait until they let him out before he responds to my call....The guy next
door is allergic to cats, but he loves B-K, because he hates moles who
destroy his lawn, and B-K waits for hours to catch a mole, and then leaves
the body on his front doorstep as a present....:^)

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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message


On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy
wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8
Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that
operate much above that, either, but that's a whole
different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up
that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics
above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are
totally deaf above 15khz.


Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud
enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15
KHz.

There really isn't much
information' between 10 and 20khz.


That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble
choice of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably
detected. And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to
masking, not a raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high.

Just noise.


No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet
with a Harmon mute comes to mind.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm


I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I
question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? IOW, if I can't hear
any frequencies above, say, 15 KHz, then I won't be able to tell the
difference between a Hi-Fi system that copies to 20 KHz, and one that only
copies to 15 KHz.....Isn't that true? So, any money I spend on equipment
that copies over 15 KHz is wasted......My cats will be able to hear it, but
they would be happier with a $1.00 pull toy, or a fresh can of cat food.
The way it is now, I can't tell a TV sound from a live one, so what good is
a 20 to 20 KHz sound system to me? The harmonics may be there, but I can't
hear them, so the music sounds just as good to me on a much poorer system.

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On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:38:30 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message


On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy
wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8
Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that
operate much above that, either, but that's a whole
different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up
that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics
above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are
totally deaf above 15khz.


Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud
enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15 KHz.


There really isn't much
information' between 10 and 20khz.


That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble choice
of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably detected.
And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to masking, not a
raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high.


Just noise.


No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet
with a Harmon mute comes to mind.



If you can't hear a tone at 17khz, what makes you think you can
hear anything out at 50khz?
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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote in
:


snip


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally
deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information'
between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.


According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will
hear about half of that "noise".


I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference
between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20-
20K.


That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is going to be a
serious piece of **** and have all kinds of distortion, and difference
in frequency response well below 10K.

Yes....The placebo effect is so great in these matters that one must use a
serious double blind test in order to really know what someone really hears,
and what they are just surmising from the things they see. As a trumpet
player, I can tell you that musicians are seriously influenced by many other
things other than the pure sounds they hear.....They do crazy things because
of these outside (sometimes ridiculous) influences. They cryogenically treat
their horns for example.....Bring them down to over 150 degrees below zero
for a half hour, and then let them return to room temperature, (which does
absolutely nothing to the metal in the horn) and they actually think their
horn will perform/sound better because of this. No amount of argument by
experienced metallurgists can convince them otherwise....:^) Another thing
they swear by is something called, "projection". This is a perceived
increase in the volume of their sound over distance, which breaks Gauss'
inverse square law, and is, of course, impossible. As a physicist, I have
found it totally impossible to convince them of this.....If they believe,
then its like a religion. They will continue to believe against any and all
logic.



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"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if
one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is
~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall
sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a
"single note".

Whether /you/ can tell the note comes from a Selmer saxophone or
a kazoo is another matter.

IOW, if I can't hear any frequencies
above, say, 15 KHz, then I won't be able to tell the
difference between a Hi-Fi system that copies to 20 KHz,
and one that only copies to 15 KHz.....Isn't that true?


No.

So,
any money I spend on equipment that copies over 15 KHz is
wasted...


No. OK, maybe - for YOU.

My cats will be able to hear it, but they would
be happier with a $1.00 pull toy, or a fresh can of cat
food. The way it is now, I can't tell a TV sound from a
live one, so what good is a 20 to 20 KHz sound system to
me? The harmonics may be there, but I can't hear them, so
the music sounds just as good to me on a much poorer
system.


I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the
difference, just your cloudy views on the matter.

Nonetheless, 20 years ago when I got my ProAcs the difference
between them and the speakers that came with my VERY good Sony
MHT-3500 mini-system was MUCH more perceptible than it is today,
but I can /still/ hear *A* difference, even though a simple test
with computer hardware (using Sennheiser headphones - and I have
a real stereo hooked up to the sound card anyway, not a pair of
˝" 'speakers') tells me my hearing cuts off around 6KHz.


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
m:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if
one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is
~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall
sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a
"single note".


It doesn't and you won't.
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"thanatoid" wrote in message
...

I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the
difference, just your cloudy views on the matter.


Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the highs, or not. If one
can't hear them, then why would one spend money to reproduce them
faithfully? Now, it may be that I am not the only one that listens to my
equipment, and therefore, I might want to buy and maintain better equipment
for my friends. But the facts are still the facts. If any part of a serial
system is defective, then the whole is not going to do the job, right? It's
like a chain, which is only as strong as its weakest link. So, ones ears are
a part of the system.....The last link in the chain, as it were. Therefore,
even if the rest of the chain is bouquet fine stuff, if the last link is
bad, then the whole thing is inadequate. That's all I'm trying to say, and I
see no reason to call my reasoning, "cloudy".

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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
om:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if
one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is
~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall
sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a
"single note".


It doesn't and you won't.


I don't really believe it will either, but there is a great deal of,
"placebo" effect going on in a room full of very expensive and elegant
equipment, and so there is a "cult" of believers that are convinced that
there is some kind of magic going on that allows them to hear things that
aren't really there......I am, (by the way) not at all immune to this
placebo effect....I too, think the music is better, (even though I should
know better.) So, I may (and frequently have in the past) spend the money
and feed my own erroneous beliefs even though I should know better. But I
don't think I should be castigated for expressing my belief in physics. The
fact of the matter is, if you can't hear those upper harmonics, then the
music won't sound any better by the time it enters your brain, and if you
think it does, then you are being deceived by something else than what you
hear. Which is OK.....I like magic shows as well as the next person.....But
I still insist that they are nothing more than magic shows, and not real
magic.

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"AZ Nomad" wrote in message

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they
if one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of
which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it
makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic
structure you perceive as a "single note".


It doesn't and you won't.


Agreed. If you can't hear it, you can't hear its effects.




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"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the
difference, just your cloudy views on the matter.


Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the
highs, or not. If one can't hear them, then why would one
spend money to reproduce them faithfully?


snip

OK, just to play this for a little longer... HOW MUCH did your
system cost?

I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than
music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound
system are nuts.

The logic of "If you can't hear it, you can't hear its effects."
(A.K.) appears undeniable, and I do not believe my stereo would
sound better - to MY ears, and 99.9% of humans - if it *just*
cost $30,000 more.

I *have heard* $30,000 systems with 2 mono block valve amps and
speakers 3 times the size of my body, and I am /perfectly/ happy
with my 20+ yr old 2x30W Sony MHC-3500, and my ProAc Tablette II
speakers (the original Sonys, better than you would think, are
used with my computer).

Even on MY system, I /can/ hear the difference between something
I recorded with a 15KHz high pass filter on Vs. off.

Anyway, this is silly to argue about.

Now, for something a LOT more important:

Has anyone heard if "they" have developed a tinnitus reversal
operation procedure, OR some wonder drug? Mine is not THAT bad -
when I am talking (etc.) I am barely aware of it, but when I
listen to MUSIC, it is in full force. A nightmare.



--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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"thanatoid" wrote in message

"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the
difference, just your cloudy views on the matter.


Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the
highs, or not. If one can't hear them, then why would one
spend money to reproduce them faithfully?


snip

OK, just to play this for a little longer... HOW MUCH did
your system cost?

I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more
than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500
on a sound system are nuts.



Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room.

Somethings are old, somethings are new...

Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120
Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85
Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300
Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450
Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450

Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but it doesn't count!

I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts.

However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more money on
speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly beneficial.


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"thanatoid" wrote in message
...
I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than
music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound
system are nuts.


Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy with for that
price, and the frequency response above 15kHz is NOT a real consideration
for me any more. BUT distortion levels and bass response sure are. However
for those who are happy with their little systems, good luck to them, they
sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are just as good.

And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue
with a $1500 sound system!

MrT.


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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"thanatoid" wrote in message
...
I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than
music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound
system are nuts.


Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy with for that
price, and the frequency response above 15kHz is NOT a real consideration
for me any more. BUT distortion levels and bass response sure are. However
for those who are happy with their little systems, good luck to them, they
sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are just as good.

And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a
venue
with a $1500 sound system!

MrT.



Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through
an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and
a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples
every week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing
Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur
musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to
1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I would
call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real
musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in
front of any crowd.

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AZ Nomad wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
om:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if
one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is
~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall
sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a
"single note".


It doesn't and you won't.


Yes you will, you're an idiot.



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AZ Nomad wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:


.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz.
There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise.


No, they are not, and you're a ****ing idiot.

Sheesh, do you *really* want to claim that all 8 kHz (fundamental)
notes will sound the same, to older people?

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Bill Graham wrote:

"dizzy" wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:

Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....


You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was
younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference
between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic reproductive
device, but in recent years (I am 75)


Doesn't excuse the above silly statement you made:

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"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

snip

Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room.

Somethings are old, somethings are new...

Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120
Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85


Is this old and good or some Chinese **** by people who bought
out the name? Or does this brand actually continue? Or is this a
different Sherwood altogether (like a UK one?)

Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300
Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450
Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450

Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but
it doesn't count!


No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get a CRT
for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.)

I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts.


No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston
Acoustics makes. You could have done a LOT worse though. It's a
decent brand, but a better value with their lower-priced stuff
IIRC.

However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more
money on speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly
beneficial.


I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people who
like hollywood action ****.
I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a while,
and I have been much happier since I removed it.


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in
u:

"thanatoid" wrote in message
...
I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more
than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500
on a sound system are nuts.


Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy
with for that price, and the frequency response above 15kHz
is NOT a real consideration for me any more. BUT distortion
levels and bass response sure are. However for those who
are happy with their little systems, good luck to them,
they sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are
just as good.

And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy
playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system!

MrT.


Take off all the gold necklaces affecting your brain operation
and you MAY realize that an amplifier (etc) for stage use is NOT
quite the same as a hi-fi amplifier in the house.

My ProAc Tablettes II cost well under a grand when I bought them
(the new ones are MUCH too big and too expensive) and they were
considered one of the 2-3 best speakers of that size /ever/
built. I would have bought the equivalent minitowers - just an
extra woofer - because they were so beautiful (IMO /the/ best
geometrical proportions of any speaker ever made), but they were
a little too expensive.

I am not into big sound (unless I /am/ on stage, but those days
are gone, pretty much).


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a
flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC
Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp
($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every
week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment
playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their
league.


Yes, some people actually use more than 5 guitar chords over 50
years...

Yes, not *three* chords, five :-]

The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the
paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are
a lot better than the pros, too...


No kidding. Quality rarely sells records or radio time.

AAMOF, I would call
most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not
musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing
in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd.


No kidding, again.


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.


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"dizzy" wrote in message
news
Bill Graham wrote:

"dizzy" wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:

Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so
it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above
that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably
shouldn't open up that can of worms.....

You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz,
no matter what the fundamental frequency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics


Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was
younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference
between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic
reproductive
device, but in recent years (I am 75)


Doesn't excuse the above silly statement you made:


And what silly statement was that?

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"thanatoid" wrote in message
...
"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a
flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC
Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp
($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every
week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment
playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their
league.


Yes, some people actually use more than 5 guitar chords over 50
years...

Yes, not *three* chords, five :-]

The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the
paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are
a lot better than the pros, too...


No kidding. Quality rarely sells records or radio time.

AAMOF, I would call
most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not
musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing
in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd.


No kidding, again.

I am fond of saying that there exists, in almost every town in this country,
a housewife that could be a concert artist, if she had the ability to sell
herself as well as she could play her music, and was willing to spend the
hours waiting in line in producers and agents offices it takes to be
recognized.......

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"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

I am fond of saying that there exists, in almost every town
in this country, a housewife that could be a concert
artist, if she had the ability to sell herself as well as
she could play her music, and was willing to spend the
hours waiting in line in producers and agents offices it
takes to be recognized.......


You forgot to mention paying low wages to a bimbo with big tits
who would lip sync/pretend to play instrument in her videos
while the artist hides in her kitchen and collects royalties.

Did you know "Whigfield" was just a model, the singer was
someone else? She was /just/ common-looking enough I thought she
may have been real... Poor Milli Vanilli guy... They were
****trailblazers**** and he snuffed it for nothing instead of
being inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame!

Sigh. I LOVE this century (NOT).


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:09:13 -0500, dizzy wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:


On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
news:KLOdnQ37puGpQBfRnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews. com:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if
one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is
~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall
sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a
"single note".


It doesn't and you won't.


Yes you will, you're an idiot.


bull**** and more bull**** is all you have
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"dizzy" wrote in message
news
AZ Nomad wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
:


snip


I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are
they if one can't hear them?


You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of
which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it
makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic
structure you perceive as a "single note".


It doesn't and you won't.


Yes you will, you're an idiot.


Ah, its the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal attack. When people
run out of logic, they can still use anger. Trouble is, it makes them look
like a fool. I feel just like I'm back on RAO!




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"thanatoid" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

snip

Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room.

Somethings are old, somethings are new...

Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120
Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85


Is this old and good or some Chinese **** by people who
bought out the name?


The Sherwood is a few years old and therefore Chinese. The Pioneer is new
but they sometimes use places like the Philllapines, etc.

If you want to be a racist, that's your choice. I find that it is harder and
harder to distinguish country of origin by looking at the insides of things.

Or does this brand actually
continue? Or is this a different Sherwood altogether
(like a UK one?)


All USA.

Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300
Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450
Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450

Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this,
but it doesn't count!


No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get
a CRT for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.)


I actually own a 2048 x 2048 CRT-based projector, which is sitting in
storage someplace. You can say whatever you want, but I know what the
actual comparison looks like. I'm using the best all-around tool in this
case.

I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts.


No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston
Acoustics makes.


Again a choice you get to make. The CR9s were bought new in the mid-1990s.
They seem to have stood the test of time.

You could have done a LOT worse though.
It's a decent brand, but a better value with their
lower-priced stuff IIRC.



However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending
more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be
audibly beneficial.


I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people
who like hollywood action ****.


You seem to hold tightly onto a lot of prejudices that many knowlegeable
people disagree with.

I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a
while, and I have been much happier since I removed it.


Next time, try implementing your subwoofer properly.


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

"thanatoid" wrote in message


snip

The Sherwood is a few years old and therefore Chinese. The
Pioneer is new but they sometimes use places like the
Philllapines, etc.


Phillipines, you racist misspeller (see below).

If you want to be a racist, that's your choice.


If you want to be a retard whose trendoid "anti-racist" leanings
make him/her afraid of admitting that country 98% of whose
industry still has not mastered the subtle art of injection
molding may NOT be the best choice for manufacturing anything
beyond pencils, and realizing that this fact has NOTHING to do
with race, that's your choice as well.

Incredible.

NB: Cadbury recently opened a plant(s?) in China. I suggest next
time you feel like some good chocolate, you buy the Chinese-made
bar. Your contribution to the anti-racist movement, overall
political awareness, the health of Western World economies and
workforce, and the well-being of all good persons on this planet
will be greatly appreciated! Bon appétit!

I find that
it is harder and harder to distinguish country of origin by
looking at the insides of things.


Once serious manufacturers realized the truth of the injection
molding statement above, they started exercising better control.
I just bought a Lumix digi camera and it is perfect, AND 100%
made in China. But the /battery/ is 100% made in Japan. I wonder
why?

Or does this brand actually
continue? Or is this a different Sherwood altogether
(like a UK one?)


All USA.


No, all China.

Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300
Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450
Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450

Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this,
but it doesn't count!


No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get
a CRT for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.)


I actually own a 2048 x 2048 CRT-based projector, which is
sitting in storage someplace.


Aside from the rather interestng aspect ratio, may I state that
CRT projectors had far worse image quality than LCDs. But size
is all that matters to MANY clueless people.

You can say whatever you want


Thank you, your majesty. I hope I was not being racist in
claiming HD and LCD was irrelevant ****.

but I know what the actual comparison looks like.
I'm using the best all-around tool in this case.


I know, it's a pointless argument. CRT's WILL be back, just like
turntables.

I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts.


No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston
Acoustics makes.


Again a choice you get to make.


Again, your benevolence is astonishing.

The CR9s were bought new in
the mid-1990s. They seem to have stood the test of time.


I never said BA stuff fell apart after 5 years, just that for
$450 you could have probably done better. OTOH, I never priced
stuff in that range. Once I heard the ProAcs, there was no other
speaker for me.

You could have done a LOT worse though.
It's a decent brand, but a better value with their
lower-priced stuff IIRC.


However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending
more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be
audibly beneficial.


I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people
who like hollywood action ****.


You seem to hold tightly onto a lot of prejudices that many
knowlegeable people disagree with.


No, many people whose intelligence and knowledge are irrelevant
(not unlike people who like huge screens with no true black, and
mind-numbing content overshadowed by the all-important
resolution) like their room to shake, for whatever reasons. Last
time I was at the symphony, my seats did NOT shake.

I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a
while, and I have been much happier since I removed it.


Next time, try implementing your subwoofer properly.


Funny how seemingly interesting and knowledgeable people turn
into idiots with fascist aspirations. And you do not "implement"
a stupid subwoofer, you connect it. And then, if you care about
content and not about your furniture rattling from joy, you
*DIS*connect it.

Whoever at Bose came up with the subwoofer/tiny satellites
concept should be fried alive. That design was originally aimed
for RESTAURANTS, BTW. Restaurants are WELL known for stressing
musical content and quality over appearance and cost.


--
Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to
reality.
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"dizzy" wrote in message
news
AZ Nomad wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid
wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in
:

snip

I don't deny that the music contains these higher
frequencies, but what I question is, what good are
they if one can't hear them?

You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of
which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it
makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic
structure you perceive as a "single note".

It doesn't and you won't.


Yes you will, you're an idiot.


Ah, its the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal attack. When people
run out of logic, they can still use anger. Trouble is, it makes them look
like a fool. I feel just like I'm back on RAO!


When I was 40 years old, and a door slammed on the TV, I could tell right
away that it was the Telly, and not any door in my house. Today, at 75, I
can't tell the difference, but my cats can without any trouble at all. So, I
know that my high frequency hearing has deteriorated to the point that the
necessary fidelity for me to tell the difference is no longer registering in
my brain......I can only attribute this to my inability to hear the higher
harmonics in the program material. I can still hear very well for a 75 year
old.....The sensitivity at the lower and middle frequencies is still there.
But the lack of the highs interferes with my ability to tell the difference
between reality and canned program material. My cats can tell the difference
easily, because their hearing extends upwards above 30 KHz. The TV doesn't
reproduce anything that high, so to them it's duck soup to know the
difference......It's just another dumb low frequency noise coming from that
box over there by the living room wall. When a real door opens and closes
somewhere in the house, they perk up immediately, because the highs they
hear in the close to thirty kilohertz range tell them it was a real
violation in the security of the house.

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"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a
venue with a $1500 sound system!


Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn

through
an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150)

and
a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20

couples
every week.


Maybe, but you could probably do that without the amp, and sound better.


Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing
Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur
musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to
1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I would
call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The

real
musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not

in
front of any crowd.



I've worked with thousands of musicians, and I'd have to say that comment is
just as silly as saying all professional musicians are better than all
amateurs. There is great talent (and crap) in both camps, and personal taste
has a lot to do with which ones YOU think are the best.


MrT.




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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a
venue with a $1500 sound system!


Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn

through
an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150)

and
a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20

couples
every week.


Maybe, but you could probably do that without the amp, and sound better.


Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing
Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur
musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100
to
1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I
would
call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The

real
musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not

in
front of any crowd.



I've worked with thousands of musicians, and I'd have to say that comment
is
just as silly as saying all professional musicians are better than all
amateurs. There is great talent (and crap) in both camps, and personal
taste
has a lot to do with which ones YOU think are the best.


MrT.


No question.....It certainly has little to do with the money they
make......Unless you think that Michael Jackson is a better, "Musician" than
Issac Pearlman or Yo Yo Ma.

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