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#1
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Low traffic on rahe
It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so)
messages per day. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? Is good music itself (mostly classical and jazz, IMO, with some good rock and pop) getting so un-relevant for most of us? Classical and jazz record sales are dropping lower and lower ( 5% ??) I see the same on EU groups I sometimes attend ... Marco from Milan, Italy |
#2
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Low traffic on rahe
From my experience I think the lower traffic on rahe has more to do
with the availability of alternative online forums and discussion sites. When I first got into the Internet side of my audio hobby back in the late 80s there were only a few audiophile BBS locations and a few audio related news groups. There was a lot more traffic on the newsgroups then because there was nowhere else to go online to share this information. Over the past 10 years the landscape of the Internet has changed significantly and there are a number of sites that maintain forums and discussion groups duplicating most of the same types of discussions that were once limited to newsgroups. While the newsgroups are still a very good venue for hosting these discussions, its no longer the only show in town. My guess is there there even more online discussion of our hobby...it's just spread around a lot more. Granted, much of this discussion has become diluted with content related to home theater but in general I think there is still a great deal of interest in high end music systems. Randy "andy" wrote in message ... It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so) messages per day. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? Is good music itself (mostly classical and jazz, IMO, with some good rock and pop) getting so un-relevant for most of us? Classical and jazz record sales are dropping lower and lower ( 5% ??) I see the same on EU groups I sometimes attend ... Marco from Milan, Italy |
#3
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Low traffic on rahe
andy wrote:
It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so) messages per day. I just downloaded 21 posts, so I think your number is low. If you're using Google Groups, not all posts make it there. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? That's part of it. There are other forms of entertainment now that didn't exist years ago. When I was a kid, the coolest, techy-est thing you could own was a good stereo system. Now, home audio is is your father's hobby. You've got computers and video games, and you want your music in tiny little boxes with tiny little earphones. Also, RAHE is not the only place on the Web to discuss high-end audio. See Audiogon or the Audio Asylum if you want to read hundreds of posts per day, and all the missionary zeal you could ask for. Note, however, that certain viewpoints are censored on those sites, and the level of unchallenged technically inaccurate information is quite high, IMHO. Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? Quality audio reproduction was never relevant for the average Joe. Audiophilia was always an elite hobby, and remains so. Is good music itself (mostly classical and jazz, IMO, with some good rock and pop) getting so un-relevant for most of us? Classical and jazz record sales are dropping lower and lower ( 5% ??) Don't confuse music and audio. Most music lovers (and even many musicians) don't concern themselves with accurate reproduction. bob __________________________________________________ _______________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ |
#4
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Low traffic on rahe
In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs.
subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. -Bob Bernstein. |
#5
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Low traffic on rahe
"RBernst929" wrote in message
news:n9Gcc.79446$gA5.978146@attbi_s03... In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. -Bob Bernstein. If *everything* is subjective, how is the fact that you are happy with your system relevant to anybody else, especially considering others' listening rooms? IMO, the single greatest value of RAHE is that it gives the room for opposing views on audio without censoring anybody (unlike some other forums) while maintaining the standards of civilized debate. I prefer objective information on audio and it is not easy to come buy such info and I do like the fact that I manage to learn useful things on this forum from the likes of pros such as Pierce, Nousaine, Krueger (while he was on this forum), Dunlavy (when he posts, which is unfortunately rare), Putzey,..... as well as from in-the-know engineers, who also happen to be audiophiles, such as chung, Pinkerton..... And I really miss jj. Don't get me wrong.... I also like to talk about equipment, but I would like to move beyond the "purple prose" available elsewhere, and try things that *objectively* work and then make my choice. |
#6
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Low traffic on rahe
Usenet is yesterday's technology. Most online arguers have long since moved
to web-based forums. ; -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#7
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Low traffic on rahe
RBernst929 wrote:
In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. In practice, 'how to make them better for the user' will inevitably involve suggestions on how to effect an *audible improvement* from the user's current system. And inevitably someone will propose getting 'better' cables or amps or transports, while others will propose that such changes are intrinsically unlikely to make any 'real world' audible difference, much less improvement. Of course, discussion of intrinsically sound-changing *features* like EQ, DSP, room treatment, etc would fit your bill, too, and would cause little or no subjectivist/objectivist controversy. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. To me, it would be just as useless as the magazine's reviews themselves, unless properly qualified. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. Apaprently Harry Pearson disagrees. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. If you're happy with it, why bother posting requests for how to make it better? -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#8
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Low traffic on rahe
RBernst929 wrote:
In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether If you want a forum in which subjectivist-objectivist debates are banned, they exist elsewhere on the Web. Proceed at your own risk. and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. So who's stopping you? Post away! And don't worry that the thread's just going to get diverted into the same old debate--there are rules against that. If there are threads you're not interested in, just skip them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. I agree with the first part, but I don't agree that the second part follows. There are some things we can objectively say about the performance of audio equipment. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. This I absolutely agree with, even though I am one of those bandwidth-clogging objectivists. bob __________________________________________________ _______________ Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2 months! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialu...ave/direct/01/ |
#9
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Low traffic on rahe
RBernst929 wrote:
In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. -Bob Bernstein. So if someone says that cables need break-in, CD magic pens are wonderful, the more expensive a cable is the better it sounds, etc., etc., you want the more technically inclined posters to just keep quiet and let those claims go unchallenged? Wouldn't those new to the hobby want to hear the viewpoints based on science and engineering? |
#10
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Low traffic on rahe
To begin with, I believe that to measure the goodness of a forum by
the number of postings is inappropriate. Moderated newsgroups tend to have a much lower posting volume than unmoderated ones, and their signal to noise ratio is much higher: this makes them more useful. josko writes: "RBernst929" wrote in message news:n9Gcc.79446$gA5.978146@attbi_s03... In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. That is a very tendentious point. The reason I read rec.audio.high-end and almost no other hi-fi forum is precisely that the debate between those who believe that it is meaningful to test audibility and those who don't is allowed here. If *everything* is subjective, how is the fact that you are happy with your system relevant to anybody else, especially considering others' listening rooms? IMO, the single greatest value of RAHE is that it gives the room for opposing views on audio without censoring anybody (unlike some other forums) while maintaining the standards of civilized debate. That is exactly right. Without such a debate, everything collapses to solipsism. This is more or less the state of the hi-fi press, which I don't read much either. They're full of "we no longer believe there is any doubt about the audibility of cables". So, let a thousand flowers bloom. This is one of the best forums for discussing such issues that I have ever come across, and we have the moderators to thank for that. Andrew. |
#11
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Low traffic on rahe
andy wrote:
It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so) messages per day. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? Is good music itself (mostly classical and jazz, IMO, with some good rock and pop) getting so un-relevant for most of us? Classical and jazz record sales are dropping lower and lower ( 5% ??) I see the same on EU groups I sometimes attend ... ================================================ At the risk of starting something, it seems that this is the "normal" message volume. But from time to time, the umpteen dozenth variation of the Double Blind Testing Argument gets going again, driving message volume up. I do hope the hardware never becomes more important than the software. -Gene Poon |
#12
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Low traffic on rahe
Which web based forums do you have in mind?
Steven Sullivan wrote: Usenet is yesterday's technology. Most online arguers have long since moved to web-based forums. ; |
#13
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Low traffic on rahe
Philip Meech wrote:
Which web based forums do you have in mind? Steven Sullivan wrote: Usenet is yesterday's technology. Most online arguers have long since moved to web-based forums. ; forums regarding audio : AudioAsylum.com Audioholics.com AVSforum.com Hometheaterforum.com hydrogenaudio.org quadraphonicquad.com stevehoffman.tv lukpac.org audiogon.com chesky.com audioreview.com are ones I just plucked out of my bookmarks file. By no means are these the only ones out there. (There are also Yahoo groups, for example) -- -S. "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason." -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director |
#14
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Low traffic on rahe
chung wrote:
RBernst929 wrote: In my opinion there is TOO much chatter back and forth about "objectivist vs. subjectivist" points of view here. I have noticed that a preponderance of posts have to do with this and I for one am tired of reading them. We all know by now who the "usual suspects" are here on both sides of the issue and that no amount of banter will change minds. So, I would like to see this newsgroup drop this line altogether and concentrate on people's real world systems, how to make them better for the user and not whether all amplifiers that measure the same must sound the same. It would be more useful to hear from users who buy products we read about in the magazines for instance and their experiences with them. There is no absoulte sound, so it is ALL subjective. If you are happy with the sound of your system, that is ALL that is required. -Bob Bernstein. So if someone says that cables need break-in, CD magic pens are wonderful, the more expensive a cable is the better it sounds, etc., etc., you want the more technically inclined posters to just keep quiet and let those claims go unchallenged? Wouldn't those new to the hobby want to hear the viewpoints based on science and engineering? Or... how about them listening for themselves and making a decision? Yes, know the pro's and con's... but listen for themselves and decide on how to spend their own money. |
#15
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Low traffic on rahe
Gene Poon wrote in message news:NVWcc.91415$JO3.45810@attbi_s04...
I do hope the hardware never becomes more important than the software. I think the very existance of threads like "cones of silence vs Masterbase" and the cliams of dramatic difference in the sounds of cables is sure existance proof that, indeed, the hardware has become more important that the software, despite these peoples strident claims to the contrary. |
#16
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Low traffic on rahe
Yes software is where my heart is too.
HW investment = about $5K SW investment = upwards of $40K "Gene Poon" wrote in message news:NVWcc.91415$JO3.45810@attbi_s04... andy wrote: It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so) messages per day. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? Is good music itself (mostly classical and jazz, IMO, with some good rock and pop) getting so un-relevant for most of us? Classical and jazz record sales are dropping lower and lower ( 5% ??) I see the same on EU groups I sometimes attend ... ================================================ At the risk of starting something, it seems that this is the "normal" message volume. But from time to time, the umpteen dozenth variation of the Double Blind Testing Argument gets going again, driving message volume up. I do hope the hardware never becomes more important than the software. -Gene Poon |
#17
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Low traffic on rahe
TonyP wrote:
chung wrote: So if someone says that cables need break-in, CD magic pens are wonderful, the more expensive a cable is the better it sounds, etc., etc., you want the more technically inclined posters to just keep quiet and let those claims go unchallenged? Wouldn't those new to the hobby want to hear the viewpoints based on science and engineering? Or... how about them listening for themselves and making a decision? Yes, know the pro's and con's... but listen for themselves and decide on how to spend their own money. I don't think even the most extreme objectivist will ever tell someone *not* to listen themselves. In fact, they simply recommend that one really only listens, using bias-controlled methods. And of course, no one has ever said that you can only spend your own money in any specific way. |
#18
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Low traffic on rahe
"andy" wrote in message
... It is sad to see a very low traffic on rahe: just a few (10 or so) messages per day. Is our hobby evaporating, involving and passionate so few people? Is quality music reproduction getting so un-relevant for most of us - the average Joe? I think there are several forces at play, primary among them is the fact that it is truly difficult to purchase bad sounding electronics today. Even the budget receivers of today are vastly superior to the high-end components of 20 years ago. Whereas discussion over amplifiers used to be meaningful, the nominal competance of the majority of today's amps has even the purest subjectivists recognizing that audible differences between them are subtle at best. The same can be said for digital source components, which really only leaves speakers as a subject of meaningful discussion. |
#19
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Low traffic on rahe
Excerpt:
At the risk of starting something, it seems that this is the "normal" message volume. But from time to time, the umpteen dozenth variation of the Double Blind Testing Argument gets going again, driving message volume up. Or down. This forum's name should be rec.audio.dead-end. |
#20
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Low traffic on rahe
"Vade Forrester" wrote in message
news:uPoec.113985$gA5.1463578@attbi_s03... Excerpt: At the risk of starting something, it seems that this is the "normal" message volume. But from time to time, the umpteen dozenth variation of the Double Blind Testing Argument gets going again, driving message volume up. Or down. This forum's name should be rec.audio.dead-end. My nomination is rec.audio.high-end-criticism., so that people know what it's apparent purpose is. Because very little else goes down here.-- the high-end-products are overpriced badly-engineered frauds, the people in the industry corrupt charlatans, the press a self-serving lapdog, etc. etc. etc. (but said more nicely than before :-) ). And except for speakers, mid-fi reigns! |
#21
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Low traffic on rahe
Part of the problem is that this newsgroup does not allow posting with a
munged email address or with an alias. Too many of us have found that SPAMMERs routinely harvest email addresses to add to their SPAMing lists, so we don't post here. This is the reality of the Internet today. Too bad. . . . Vade Forrester wrote: Excerpt: At the risk of starting something, it seems that this is the "normal" message volume. But from time to time, the umpteen dozenth variation of the Double Blind Testing Argument gets going again, driving message volume up. Or down. This forum's name should be rec.audio.dead-end. |
#22
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Low traffic on rahe
I think there are several forces at play, primary among them is the fact
that it is truly difficult to purchase bad sounding electronics today. Even the budget receivers of today are vastly superior to the high-end components of 20 years ago. Whereas discussion over amplifiers used to be meaningful, the nominal competance of the majority of today's amps has even the purest subjectivists recognizing that audible differences between them are subtle at best. The same can be said for digital source components, which really only leaves speakers as a subject of meaningful discussion. I would say: speakers and digital processing (room correction). I vote for the claim that 'properly designed amplifiers tend to sound the same'. Just be careful with idiosincratics pairs - e.g. SET amplifiers (is it a right example of properly designed amplifier??) with low impedance loudspeaker systems I personally am not too much excited to discuss about 'how much transparent that pre-amplifier is ...' regards |
#23
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Low traffic on rahe
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