"Wessel Dirksen" wrote ...
I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll
send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to
outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

Technical answer: no.
Psychological answer: do YOU hear a difference? :-)

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

Wessel


Alignment with the earth's magnetic field will have a greater effect.

;-)

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

Wessel


Alignment with the earth's magnetic field will have a greater effect.

;-)

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

Wessel


Alignment with the earth's magnetic field will have a greater effect.

;-)

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

Wessel


Alignment with the earth's magnetic field will have a greater effect.

;-)

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:01:26 +0100, "Wessel Dirksen"
wrote:

Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

---
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically as
far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each other.

--
John Fields

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:01:26 +0100, "Wessel Dirksen"
wrote:

Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

---
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically as
far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each other.

--
John Fields

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:01:26 +0100, "Wessel Dirksen"
wrote:

Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

---
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically as
far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each other.

--
John Fields

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:01:26 +0100, "Wessel Dirksen"
wrote:

Hello All,

I've noticed that this forum has alot of speaker buffs so I figure I'll send
this one out. I always tend to have the current flow from inside to outside
but to be honest I could never hear the difference in how you orient the
inductors. Any ideas or opinions?

---
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically as
far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each other.

--
John Fields

John Fields wrote:
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically
as far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each
other.

87 degrees sounds much sweeter in the highs ....

geoff

John Fields wrote:
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically
as far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each
other.

87 degrees sounds much sweeter in the highs ....

geoff

John Fields wrote:
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically
as far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each
other.

87 degrees sounds much sweeter in the highs ....

geoff

John Fields wrote:
If the inductors are non-toroidal or not wound in cup cores they will
exhibit an external magnetic field which can couple into other nearby
inductors if the magnetic fields are in alignment. In order to keep
this from happening, it is best to separate the inductors physically
as far as possible and to keep their magnetic fields at 90° to each
other.

87 degrees sounds much sweeter in the highs ....

geoff

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


snip

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


snip

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


snip

Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


snip

(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle
who read a book about a guy who's best friend owned a TV repair
shop down the street form a guy who worked in a transformer place.
The word "hysteresis",and an ancient diagram appears in the middle
of a conversation, and poof! before you know it, someone is selling
"polarized" inductors for $50 a pop and spouting some nonsense
theory about how the "hysteresis profile" is different depending
upon whether the current flows from the inside out or the outside
in.

Don't believe it?

Unfortunately, yes I do... Isn't it amazing.

I don't think it is all marketing, many people doing stuff like this
really beleive in it themselves.

(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle
who read a book about a guy who's best friend owned a TV repair
shop down the street form a guy who worked in a transformer place.
The word "hysteresis",and an ancient diagram appears in the middle
of a conversation, and poof! before you know it, someone is selling
"polarized" inductors for $50 a pop and spouting some nonsense
theory about how the "hysteresis profile" is different depending
upon whether the current flows from the inside out or the outside
in.

Don't believe it?

Unfortunately, yes I do... Isn't it amazing.

I don't think it is all marketing, many people doing stuff like this
really beleive in it themselves.

(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle
who read a book about a guy who's best friend owned a TV repair
shop down the street form a guy who worked in a transformer place.
The word "hysteresis",and an ancient diagram appears in the middle
of a conversation, and poof! before you know it, someone is selling
"polarized" inductors for $50 a pop and spouting some nonsense
theory about how the "hysteresis profile" is different depending
upon whether the current flows from the inside out or the outside
in.

Don't believe it?

Unfortunately, yes I do... Isn't it amazing.

I don't think it is all marketing, many people doing stuff like this
really beleive in it themselves.

(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle
who read a book about a guy who's best friend owned a TV repair
shop down the street form a guy who worked in a transformer place.
The word "hysteresis",and an ancient diagram appears in the middle
of a conversation, and poof! before you know it, someone is selling
"polarized" inductors for $50 a pop and spouting some nonsense
theory about how the "hysteresis profile" is different depending
upon whether the current flows from the inside out or the outside
in.

Don't believe it?

Unfortunately, yes I do... Isn't it amazing.

I don't think it is all marketing, many people doing stuff like this
really beleive in it themselves.

"citronzx" wrote ...
I like your posts on 'audiophile' hogwash, keep it up! I had roommates
using a green marker on their cds and trying to hear a difference. I
thought that they were nuts; I had never heard of this story. Long story
shot, they believed that they could hear a difference and were not
interested in learning about things like studies showing very poor hearing
'memory' in people. These were not audiophile types, just regular music
listeners. If you have anymore stories like this that hasn't yet been
turned into a product then let's get together and make ourselves a
fortune.

My buddies and I joked for years about selling a line of
gold-plated fuses. But then someone actually came out with
them and they are making MY fortune from gullible customers.

"citronzx" wrote ...
I like your posts on 'audiophile' hogwash, keep it up! I had roommates
using a green marker on their cds and trying to hear a difference. I
thought that they were nuts; I had never heard of this story. Long story
shot, they believed that they could hear a difference and were not
interested in learning about things like studies showing very poor hearing
'memory' in people. These were not audiophile types, just regular music
listeners. If you have anymore stories like this that hasn't yet been
turned into a product then let's get together and make ourselves a
fortune.

My buddies and I joked for years about selling a line of
gold-plated fuses. But then someone actually came out with
them and they are making MY fortune from gullible customers.

"citronzx" wrote ...
I like your posts on 'audiophile' hogwash, keep it up! I had roommates
using a green marker on their cds and trying to hear a difference. I
thought that they were nuts; I had never heard of this story. Long story
shot, they believed that they could hear a difference and were not
interested in learning about things like studies showing very poor hearing
'memory' in people. These were not audiophile types, just regular music
listeners. If you have anymore stories like this that hasn't yet been
turned into a product then let's get together and make ourselves a
fortune.

My buddies and I joked for years about selling a line of
gold-plated fuses. But then someone actually came out with
them and they are making MY fortune from gullible customers.

"citronzx" wrote ...
I like your posts on 'audiophile' hogwash, keep it up! I had roommates
using a green marker on their cds and trying to hear a difference. I
thought that they were nuts; I had never heard of this story. Long story
shot, they believed that they could hear a difference and were not
interested in learning about things like studies showing very poor hearing
'memory' in people. These were not audiophile types, just regular music
listeners. If you have anymore stories like this that hasn't yet been
turned into a product then let's get together and make ourselves a
fortune.

My buddies and I joked for years about selling a line of
gold-plated fuses. But then someone actually came out with
them and they are making MY fortune from gullible customers.

Svante wrote:
(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle


Some dude thought up a way of extracting more dosh from vinyl fanatics. He
told them their thorn styllii were useless, and sold them DIAMOND ones.

;-)

geoff

Diamond-lens lasers, anybody ?

Svante wrote:
(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle


Some dude thought up a way of extracting more dosh from vinyl fanatics. He
told them their thorn styllii were useless, and sold them DIAMOND ones.

;-)

geoff

Diamond-lens lasers, anybody ?

Svante wrote:
(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle


Some dude thought up a way of extracting more dosh from vinyl fanatics. He
told them their thorn styllii were useless, and sold them DIAMOND ones.

;-)

geoff

Diamond-lens lasers, anybody ?

Svante wrote:
(Dick Pierce) wrote in message
Someone hears someone who mentions something about a friend uncle


Some dude thought up a way of extracting more dosh from vinyl fanatics. He
told them their thorn styllii were useless, and sold them DIAMOND ones.

;-)

geoff

Diamond-lens lasers, anybody ?

Or cable break in.


johnc, the ex-pat
US Army, Ret.
Saudi Arabia


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Or cable break in.


johnc, the ex-pat
US Army, Ret.
Saudi Arabia


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Or cable break in.


johnc, the ex-pat
US Army, Ret.
Saudi Arabia


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Or cable break in.


johnc, the ex-pat
US Army, Ret.
Saudi Arabia


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

On 11 Feb 2004 08:11:15 -0800, (Svante)
wrote:

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

---
Probably because Z does _not_ equal wL, inductive reactance (Xl) does.

That is,

Xl = wL = 2pi*f*L

In a series circuit containing resistance, inductance, and capacitance,
the impedance (Z) of the circuit will be equal to the square root of the
sums of the squares of the resistance and the square of the difference
between the inductive and capacitive reactance. That is,

Z = sqrt (R² + (Xl - Xc)²)

Of course, in a circuit containing only inductance, the inductive
reactance and impedance will be equal. However, such a scenario is
impossible and the effects of capacitance and resistance must always be
considered if accuracy is important.

Looking at just the inductor, since there is a voltage difference
between turns and the turns are dielectrically isolated from each other,
that gives rise to an inherent capacitance and since there is resistance
in the wire used to wind the inductor, that's also part of the inductor
and can't be separated from it. There are winding techniques used to
minimize the capacitance (which appears to be in _parallel_ with the
inductance) but in the case of coils wound for loudspeaker crossovers,
I'd seriously doubt whether the slightest consideration was given to
them. I suspect the resistance of the wire is what's causing the
deviation from "ideal" inductance, and I also suspect that skin effect
has _nothing_ to do with it since that's an effect which starts to
become significant at radio frequencies.

--
John Fields

On 11 Feb 2004 08:11:15 -0800, (Svante)
wrote:

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

---
Probably because Z does _not_ equal wL, inductive reactance (Xl) does.

That is,

Xl = wL = 2pi*f*L

In a series circuit containing resistance, inductance, and capacitance,
the impedance (Z) of the circuit will be equal to the square root of the
sums of the squares of the resistance and the square of the difference
between the inductive and capacitive reactance. That is,

Z = sqrt (R² + (Xl - Xc)²)

Of course, in a circuit containing only inductance, the inductive
reactance and impedance will be equal. However, such a scenario is
impossible and the effects of capacitance and resistance must always be
considered if accuracy is important.

Looking at just the inductor, since there is a voltage difference
between turns and the turns are dielectrically isolated from each other,
that gives rise to an inherent capacitance and since there is resistance
in the wire used to wind the inductor, that's also part of the inductor
and can't be separated from it. There are winding techniques used to
minimize the capacitance (which appears to be in _parallel_ with the
inductance) but in the case of coils wound for loudspeaker crossovers,
I'd seriously doubt whether the slightest consideration was given to
them. I suspect the resistance of the wire is what's causing the
deviation from "ideal" inductance, and I also suspect that skin effect
has _nothing_ to do with it since that's an effect which starts to
become significant at radio frequencies.

--
John Fields

On 11 Feb 2004 08:11:15 -0800, (Svante)
wrote:

CJT wrote in message ...
Wessel Dirksen wrote:
"CJT" wrote in message
...

snip
Nobody commented on my observation earlier in the thread that the
Earth's magnetic field could bias the hysteresis curve in certain
orientations. g


I personally thought you were making a joke.

I was. But that sort of thing is similar to other audiophile
legends. Skin effect comes to mind; nobody denies its existence,
but to claim an audible effect exceeds credibility.


Hmm. Pardon me if I am drifting off topic here, but I and a collegue
of mine recently noticed a quite noticeable deviance from the Z=wL in
the impedance of inductors in the HF range. These inductors were made
of standard ~0.3mm (I'll have to check this) wires and no iron core
(for loudspeaker crossovers). Any explanation to this, apart from
skin?
http://www.tolvan.com/coil.gif
Note that I don't claim big *audible* effects from this in most
applications, though.

---
Probably because Z does _not_ equal wL, inductive reactance (Xl) does.

That is,

Xl = wL = 2pi*f*L

In a series circuit containing resistance, inductance, and capacitance,
the impedance (Z) of the circuit will be equal to the square root of the
sums of the squares of the resistance and the square of the difference
between the inductive and capacitive reactance. That is,

Z = sqrt (R² + (Xl - Xc)²)

Of course, in a circuit containing only inductance, the inductive
reactance and impedance will be equal. However, such a scenario is
impossible and the effects of capacitance and resistance must always be
considered if accuracy is important.

Looking at just the inductor, since there is a voltage difference
between turns and the turns are dielectrically isolated from each other,
that gives rise to an inherent capacitance and since there is resistance
in the wire used to wind the inductor, that's also part of the inductor
and can't be separated from it. There are winding techniques used to
minimize the capacitance (which appears to be in _parallel_ with the
inductance) but in the case of coils wound for loudspeaker crossovers,
I'd seriously doubt whether the slightest consideration was given to
them. I suspect the resistance of the wire is what's causing the
deviation from "ideal" inductance, and I also suspect that skin effect
has _nothing_ to do with it since that's an effect which starts to
become significant at radio frequencies.

--
John Fields