[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those situations where it
appears to fit. Trouble is, a place like RAO seems to attract a goodly and
highly vocal segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose preferences
appear to be overcome by emotions other than a desire for the most sonically
faithful and literal reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.


So, I end up using it a lot on RAO.


Of course you do.

rest of childish insults and bigotry snipped

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" said:


The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those
situations where it appears to fit. Trouble is, a place
like RAO seems to attract a goodly and highly vocal
segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose
preferences appear to be overcome by emotions other than
a desire for the most sonically faithful and literal
reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.

How do you do at live concerts, where the sound is clearly the preference of
the house, not yours.

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" said:


The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those
situations where it appears to fit. Trouble is, a place
like RAO seems to attract a goodly and highly vocal
segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose
preferences appear to be overcome by emotions other than
a desire for the most sonically faithful and literal
reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.

How do you do at live concerts, where the sound is clearly the preference of
the house, not yours.

Which is yet another reason why NOT to use the sound of live,
unamplified music in a concert hall as an ultimate reference for sound
quality.

Boon

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those
situations where it appears to fit. Trouble is, a place
like RAO seems to attract a goodly and highly vocal
segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose
preferences appear to be overcome by emotions other than
a desire for the most sonically faithful and literal
reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.


How do you do at live concerts, where the sound is clearly the preference of
the house, not yours.


What live concert?
What concert hall, which conductor and orchestra, which programn
material, which seat?

At home, I try to create the sound *I* like, something I never denied
or tried to hide from anyone.

Apparently, people who hear and (want to) buy my amplifiers, or are
having a system "composed" by me, are satisfied by what I do.

On my current system, I can tell which brand and type of grand piano
is used (since I play piano, and know the distinct character of most
well-known brands and types, this is a reference point for me).

It is even possible to get an indication of the (size of the) room,
concert hall or jazz cafe where the recording was made, if that
recording is good in the first place.
And all that with just a humble stereo system.

Real, true high fidelity to the actual event is illusory.
No reproducing system is able to recreate the original event, it is
always an approach.

Might as well be an approach one likes, instead of just "accurate
reproducing of what is on the source disk or tape".

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:


The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those
situations where it appears to fit. Trouble is, a place
like RAO seems to attract a goodly and highly vocal
segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose
preferences appear to be overcome by emotions other
than a desire for the most sonically faithful and
literal reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.

How do you do at live concerts, where the sound is
clearly the preference of the house, not yours.

What live concert?
What concert hall, which conductor and orchestra, which
programn material, which seat?

That's my argument, but it doesn't apply here.

You've missed the point.

At home, I try to create the sound *I* like, something I
never denied or tried to hide from anyone.

In several senses, that is an intelligent thing to do.

Apparently, people who hear and (want to) buy my
amplifiers, or are having a system "composed" by me, are
satisfied by what I do.

Or, its something else. As you say, your conclusion is based on shallow
appearances.

On my current system, I can tell which brand and type of
grand piano is used (since I play piano, and know the
distinct character of most well-known brands and types,
this is a reference point for me).

Sometimes one can do that while listening to a pretty crappy system.

It is even possible to get an indication of the (size of
the) room, concert hall or jazz cafe where the recording
was made, if that recording is good in the first place.
And all that with just a humble stereo system.

It might be exceptional for a tubes/vinyl system, but its not exceptional in
general.

Real, true high fidelity to the actual event is illusory.

Agreed.

No reproducing system is able to recreate the original
event, it is always an approach.

Agreed.

Might as well be an approach one likes, instead of just
"accurate reproducing of what is on the source disk or
tape".

You've been listening to Ferstler too much.

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to water to make it
sound dirty, and say that's better than clean water?"

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Arny Krueger wrote:
Since you don't care what I post, there is no logical reason for me to go to
this trouble.

Translation: "I can't because they do not exist."

Since you don't care what I think, there is no reason for you to ever again
comment on any of my posts. Being a fine reasonable person, you will never
again comment on any of my posts, right?

Wrongo, sphincter breath. I will comment on your posts as I see fit,
exactly because I am a 'fine reasonable person.'

[Arny Krueger]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" spewed:


Isn't it a good thing that I don't care what you think,

Arny Krueger wrote:

Since you don't care what I post, there is no logical
reason for me to go to this trouble.

Translation: "I can't because they do not exist."

Non sequitur.

Since you don't care what I think, there is no reason
for you to ever again comment on any of my posts. Being
a fine reasonable person, you will never again comment
on any of my posts, right?

I will comment on your posts as
I see fit, exactly because I am a 'fine reasonable
person.'

Non sequitur.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

The only place I apply the label "Vinyl Bigot" is those
situations where it appears to fit. Trouble is, a place
like RAO seems to attract a goodly and highly vocal
segment of that tiny minority of music lovers whose
preferences appear to be overcome by emotions other
than a desire for the most sonically faithful and
literal reproduction of musical recordings.


Music is an expression of emotion.
Myfi is better than Hifi.


How do you do at live concerts, where the sound is
clearly the preference of the house, not yours.


What live concert?
What concert hall, which conductor and orchestra, which
programn material, which seat?


That's my argument, but it doesn't apply here.

You've missed the point.


I think not.
One has the option of visiting different concert halls, or venues
where music is made.
One has the option of choosing the desired orchestra and/or conductor,
or band, or soloist.
One has the option of changing seats, or moving around the place where
the sound is best to one's ears.
One even has the option of wearing custom-made ear plugs (I do at
least, since I'm in the PA business, and since I make music myself as
well).

BTW you agreed below that no system is able to recreate the actual
event, so in that sense, your argument is "non-sequitur" in PC speak,
and bogus in understandable language, anyway.


At home, I try to create the sound *I* like, something I
never denied or tried to hide from anyone.


In several senses, that is an intelligent thing to do.


How is this possible?
You've called me dumb, stupid, uninformed, of limited mental
capacities, a bigot and a know-nothing poseur in the past.

How could I *possibly* do something as intelligent as that?


Apparently, people who hear and (want to) buy my
amplifiers, or are having a system "composed" by me, are
satisfied by what I do.


Or, its something else. As you say, your conclusion is based on shallow
appearances.


Personal preference = shallow appearance?


On my current system, I can tell which brand and type of
grand piano is used (since I play piano, and know the
distinct character of most well-known brands and types,
this is a reference point for me).


Sometimes one can do that while listening to a pretty crappy system.


Not sometimes, always.
Look it up in your dictionary, there *is* a difference between both
words.


It is even possible to get an indication of the (size of
the) room, concert hall or jazz cafe where the recording
was made, if that recording is good in the first place.
And all that with just a humble stereo system.


It might be exceptional for a tubes/vinyl system, but its not exceptional in
general.


Who said anything about tubes and/or vinyl?
My amplification is 3/4 solid state, and only 1/4 tubed.
I have the choice of swapping from all tubed, via hybrid, to full
solid state amplification, or a combination of all 3, at the throw of
a switch, or swapping some cables.

My DAC and transport are both fully solid state.
I also have turntables, yes, as do you.
I can switch between tubed and solid state RIAA amplification and
equalization, , again at the flip of a switch, and I can throw in a
decent tone control, equalizer or DSP whenever I feel like it.

Your point?
To be insulting again?


Real, true high fidelity to the actual event is illusory.


Agreed.


Thank you.


No reproducing system is able to recreate the original
event, it is always an approach.


Agreed.


Thank you.


Might as well be an approach one likes, instead of just
"accurate reproducing of what is on the source disk or
tape".


You've been listening to Ferstler too much.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

While I may agree with Howard on certain things, I hardly share his
audio views.

It doesn't take a clairvoyant to see that, but as I've noticed before,
your powers of perception are somewhat limited, to say the least.


My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to water to make it
sound dirty, and say that's better than clean water?"


Non sequitur.
Bogus argument, straw man, red herring, circular logic, one track mind
and blinders on, noted.

LoT;'S! ;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" spewed:


Isn't it a good thing that I don't care what you think,

Arny Krueger wrote:

Since you don't care what I post, there is no logical
reason for me to go to this trouble.

Translation: "I can't because they do not exist."

Non sequitur.

Insane asshole noted.

Since you don't care what I think, there is no reason
for you to ever again comment on any of my posts. Being
a fine reasonable person, you will never again comment
on any of my posts, right?

I will comment on your posts as
I see fit, exactly because I am a 'fine reasonable
person.'

Insane asshole noted.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

snip

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to water to make it
sound dirty, and say that's better than clean water?"

I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a "warm" filter to a
photography lense....done all the time...in fact removal is the exception,
not the rule, for outdoor work.

A "tint"....visual or audio...is not "mud", Arns (the debil mad me do it).

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

snip

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to
water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better than
clean water?"

I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a
"warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.

Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user control) which are
like photographic filters, mixed up with what the LP format does, which is
to add arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do anything about
because it is inherent in the LP medium.

[John Atkinson]

Here in Ohio wrote:
On 14 Nov 2006 04:17:47 -0800, "John Atkinson"
wrote:
wrote:
Mr. Atkinson, why does it seem to matter to you how much vinyl
is being sold?

It doesn't matter directly to me, except for when it affects what
I publish in my magazine. If a higher proportion of readers are
interested in LP playback, then I need to shift the balance of content
their way.

Are the RIAA figures, or even info directly from retailers, really
representative of what your readers are using?

No.

Have you done any polls to see if Stereophile users are using vinyl,
what proportion are using it, and how they're using it?

We most recently ran a poll on www.stereophile.com. Following
are the results from several hundered respondents, which are not
too different from what we have found in the past:

LP Turntable: 23%
CD Disc Player: 39%
CDs on a DVD-V Player: 4%
SACD Disc Player: 8%
DVD-A Disc Player: 0%
FM Radio: 6%
Satellite Radio: 1%
Web Radio: 0%
Hard Disk Device: 7%
Other: 2%

The question asked was "how do you listen to the _majority_ of
your music during the year?" thus addressing your question
about "how."

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

snip

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to
water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better than
clean water?"

I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a
"warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.

Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user control) which are
like photographic filters, mixed up with what the LP format does, which is
to add arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do anything about
because it is inherent in the LP medium.

Hey, Arns! You're starting to get it!

It's like using a Kodak film or a Fuji film. Photographers like
different films for different reasons. Some have slightly different
color balance, sharpness, contrast, and so on.

There is no such thing as 'the most accurate' film.

So if a photographer wants something balanced for skin tone, or deep
color saturation, he or she might choose different films. There's
nothing wrong with that.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...182/e182.jhtml

And if someone prefers the sound of LPs, there's nothing wrong with
that either.

But you're too big of an asshole to see that.

[John Atkinson]

John Atkinson wrote:
CD Disc Player: 39%

Should be 49%, I believe. (Don't have the raw data to hand.)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


Wrong. All Jenn is doing is targeting me repeatedly and
letting everybody else take as many shots as they can
without signfifcant interferenace from here. That makes
her a Middius clone, differing only slightly in tone.

Incorrect. I was giving you an opportunity to be the
agent of change; to be the person with class.

Jenn, you seem to be agressively hard to educate. I'm not the only or even
the major problem around here.

I didn't say that you were, Arny. Let me say again: You were given the
chance to be the hero; to change the atmosphere around here. YOU could
have changed things. Instead we get excuses and more "snot". Obviously
you don't want things to change.


Until you target the major problems, everything else is futile.

One at a time. If you had taken away the fuel, there would be no fire.


That you failed to take me up on that opportunity speaks only to
your obvious need to be something else.

Jenn its easy to be a do-gooder when you let other people do your dirty
work.

Stop right there. You, as always, presume some kind of ulterior motive.
You are wrong. I'm not "letting others do my dirty work." Grow up and
take responsibility for YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

The only reason why you're so worried about me is how effective I am
at making your position so clear. You want me to do something you could
never do,

What's that, Arny?

and insult me when I'm not 100 times better than you.

Arny the amount of snot that you spread is far, far more than I could
ever do. Don't you see that?

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
. com,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"


I'll take this to mean that you don't want to play nice
any more, since you've insulted her several times in
this post.

It appears that insults don't bother you ****R, since
you've already unloaded a goodly number and we're just
getting into your post.

You perhaps didn't notice that I'd pretty well left you
alone since Jenn had asked us to.

Thanks for trying.

The coach encourages her team.

It's an old strategy, folks. The coach doesn't get her hands dirty, but
leaves the dirty work up to others.

lol. It's all a big conspiracy Arny. Good on you for finding it out.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


Wrong. All Jenn is doing is targeting me repeatedly and
letting everybody else take as many shots as they can
without signfifcant interferenace from here. That makes
her a Middius clone, differing only slightly in tone.

Incorrect. I was giving you an opportunity to be the
agent of change; to be the person with class.

Jenn, you seem to be agressively hard to educate. I'm
not the only or even the major problem around here.

I didn't say that you were, Arny. Let me say again: You
were given the chance to be the hero; to change the
atmosphere around here. YOU could have changed things.
Instead we get excuses and more "snot". Obviously you
don't want things to change.


Until you target the major problems, everything else is
futile.

One at a time. If you had taken away the fuel, there
would be no fire.

It appears that there is no amount of evidence or logic that will convince
you of the futility of that assertion.

That you failed to take me up on that opportunity
speaks only to your obvious need to be something else.

Jenn its easy to be a do-gooder when you let other
people do your dirty work.

Stop right there. You, as always, presume some kind of
ulterior motive.

Delusions of omniscience noted. You don't know what I *always* do because
you don't monitor my life 24/7.

You are wrong. I'm not "letting others do my dirty work."

Jenn, you are obviously unable to connect your own dotted lines.

Grow up and take responsibility for YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

I think that statement says more than enough about you Jenn, to end this
part of the discussion.

[Arny Krueger]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

snip

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt
to water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better
than clean water?"

I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or
a "warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.

Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user
control) which are like photographic filters, mixed up
with what the LP format does, which is to add
arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do
anything about because it is inherent in the LP medium.

Hey, Arns! You're starting to get it!

It's like using a Kodak film or a Fuji film.
Photographers like different films for different reasons.
Some have slightly different color balance, sharpness,
contrast, and so on.

There is no such thing as 'the most accurate' film.

However there clearly is such a thing as "lesser accurate film".

Oh, have you never seen pictures taken with poor quality, old technology
film?


So if a photographer wants something balanced for skin
tone, or deep color saturation, he or she might choose
different films. There's nothing wrong with that.

That would be like tone controls.


And if someone prefers the sound of LPs, there's nothing
wrong with that either.

Where did I say that there is something wrong with that?

Quote me saying that it is morally wrong to have quiet enjoyment of LPs.

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com
Here in Ohio wrote:
On 14 Nov 2006 04:17:47 -0800, "John Atkinson"
wrote:
wrote:
Mr. Atkinson, why does it seem to matter to you how
much vinyl is being sold?

It doesn't matter directly to me, except for when it
affects what
I publish in my magazine. If a higher proportion of
readers are interested in LP playback, then I need to
shift the balance of content their way.

Are the RIAA figures, or even info directly from
retailers, really representative of what your readers
are using?

No.

Have you done any polls to see if Stereophile users are
using vinyl, what proportion are using it, and how
they're using it?

We most recently ran a poll on www.stereophile.com.
Following are the results from several hundered
respondents, which are not too different from what we
have found in the past:

LP Turntable: 23%
CD Disc Player: 39%
CDs on a DVD-V Player: 4%
SACD Disc Player: 8%
DVD-A Disc Player: 0%
FM Radio: 6%
Satellite Radio: 1%
Web Radio: 0%
Hard Disk Device: 7%
Other: 2%

The question asked was "how do you listen to the
_majority_ of your music during the year?" thus
addressing your question about "how."

Well, that explains the SP editorial policy.

The 0% DVD-A seems to be hard to explain, though.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

snip

My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to
water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better than
clean water?"

I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a
"warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.

Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user control) which are
like photographic filters, mixed up with what the LP format does, which is
to add arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do anything about
because it is inherent in the LP medium.


You are right about what I was thinking....jumped to the bottom of the
argument too soon.

But as far as LP's are concerned, IMO it is still not mud....perhaps I can
liken it to a smidgen of grain left after I take a digital picture in the
near-dark at ISO 1600 with my SLR...then clean it up with software. There
is grain there...you can see it...but it really doesn't destroy the thrill
of seeing a picutre the way we and our human eyes see things. Likewise, for
many of us (particularly those of us with line contact styli) the
occassional tic or pop doesn't get in the way of the music....and "behind"
those occasional tics and pops lies some glorious, transparent sound much of
the time.

[George M. Middius]

Arnii "You're not my mommy!" Krooger said:

Grow up and take responsibility for YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

I think that statement says more than enough about you Jenn

To me (and probably to most of us), that statement says that Jenn has lost
patience with trying to indulge you in the hope that you'll impart some
useful information.



--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg smashes its pedal appendages with its own hammer. LOt"S.

And if someone prefers the sound of LPs, there's nothing
wrong with that either.

Where did I say that there is something wrong with that?

You forgot the smarmy-winky, Arnii. Here's a few extras for you to set by:

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Quote me saying that it is morally wrong to have quiet enjoyment of LPs.

Thank's Mr. Krooger for, admitting Mr. Krooger that it's sinful to play
LP's loudly Mr. Krooger.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

George M. Middius wrote:
The Krooborg smashes its pedal appendages with its own hammer. LOt"S.

And if someone prefers the sound of LPs, there's nothing
wrong with that either.

Where did I say that there is something wrong with that?

You forgot the smarmy-winky, Arnii. Here's a few extras for you to set by:

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Quote me saying that it is morally wrong to have quiet enjoyment of LPs.

Thank's Mr. Krooger for, admitting Mr. Krooger that it's sinful to play
LP's loudly Mr. Krooger.

I think he meant that it's sinful to enjoy them and *talk* about them.
If you like them you need to keep it quiet.

Otherwise, raging assholes will appear like flies to ****.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


Wrong. All Jenn is doing is targeting me repeatedly and
letting everybody else take as many shots as they can
without signfifcant interferenace from here. That makes
her a Middius clone, differing only slightly in tone.

Incorrect. I was giving you an opportunity to be the
agent of change; to be the person with class.

Jenn, you seem to be agressively hard to educate. I'm
not the only or even the major problem around here.

I didn't say that you were, Arny. Let me say again: You
were given the chance to be the hero; to change the
atmosphere around here. YOU could have changed things.
Instead we get excuses and more "snot". Obviously you
don't want things to change.


Until you target the major problems, everything else is
futile.

One at a time. If you had taken away the fuel, there
would be no fire.

It appears that there is no amount of evidence or logic that will convince
you of the futility of that assertion.

Why wouldn't you give it a chance? It works in other situations.


That you failed to take me up on that opportunity
speaks only to your obvious need to be something else.

Jenn its easy to be a do-gooder when you let other
people do your dirty work.

Stop right there. You, as always, presume some kind of
ulterior motive.

Delusions of omniscience noted. You don't know what I *always* do because
you don't monitor my life 24/7.

Always = around here, obviously.


You are wrong. I'm not "letting others do my dirty work."

Jenn, you are obviously unable to connect your own dotted lines.

I'm simply speaking the truth.


Grow up and take responsibility for YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

I think that statement says more than enough about you Jenn, to end this
part of the discussion.

Surrender accepted.

[George M. Middius]

Shhhh! said:

Quote me saying that it is morally wrong to have quiet enjoyment of LPs.

Thank's Mr. Krooger for, admitting Mr. Krooger that it's sinful to play
LP's loudly Mr. Krooger.

I think he meant that it's sinful to enjoy them and *talk* about them.
If you like them you need to keep it quiet.

You might be right, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps Mr. Krooborg will
clarify which aspect of enjoying LPs is sinful.

Otherwise, raging assholes will appear like flies to ****.

Yep, that's inevitable.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

"Harry Lavo" said:


My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to
water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better than
clean water?"


I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a
"warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.


Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user control) which are
like photographic filters, mixed up with what the LP format does, which is
to add arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do anything about
because it is inherent in the LP medium.


You are right about what I was thinking....jumped to the bottom of the
argument too soon.


But as far as LP's are concerned, IMO it is still not mud....perhaps I can
liken it to a smidgen of grain left after I take a digital picture in the
near-dark at ISO 1600 with my SLR...then clean it up with software. There
is grain there...you can see it...but it really doesn't destroy the thrill
of seeing a picutre the way we and our human eyes see things. Likewise, for
many of us (particularly those of us with line contact styli) the
occassional tic or pop doesn't get in the way of the music....and "behind"
those occasional tics and pops lies some glorious, transparent sound much of
the time.


There's a perfect birthday present for Arns: a photocopy of a Matisse
to hang on his wall ;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Sander deWaal]

Jenn said:


Arny the amount of snot that you spread is far, far more than I could
ever do. Don't you see that?


Sadly, he doesn't, Jenn.

I'm not going to say "See, told you so!", because that would blow my
cover as a Middius/Atkinson/Jenn/Packer/McElroy/Stevenson/Dormer/
Broens/Ferstler/Phillips/Sackman sockpuppet.

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[dizzy]

Here in Ohio wrote:

It would be interesting to know why CD players are a bigger percentage
than DVD players. We could speculate that Stereophile readers are
purchasing expensive CD players (since they're about the only kind of
dedicated CD players left) or that Stereophile readers are using a
bunch of old CD players.

DVD players suck, for one thing. The crappy FF function alone is a
deal killer for me.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Signal wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

She's like a
person who drinks polluted sea water and brags about how natural and pure it
tastes.

Spin the table :

You are like a person who proclaims that purified tap water is
"superior", describing those who express a preference for natural
spring water as "bigots".

;-)

That does seem to sum it up nicely...

Except that you forgot the part about old Arns being an unqualified
asshole.

[Harry Lavo]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov 2006 12:08:57 -0800, "John Atkinson"
wrote:


Have you done any polls to see if Stereophile users are using vinyl,
what proportion are using it, and how they're using it?

We most recently ran a poll on www.stereophile.com. Following
are the results from several hundered respondents, which are not
too different from what we have found in the past:

LP Turntable: 23%
CD Disc Player: 39%
CDs on a DVD-V Player: 4%
SACD Disc Player: 8%
DVD-A Disc Player: 0%
FM Radio: 6%
Satellite Radio: 1%
Web Radio: 0%
Hard Disk Device: 7%
Other: 2%

The question asked was "how do you listen to the _majority_ of
your music during the year?" thus addressing your question
about "how."

Ok, I can see why you would cover vinyl in Stereophile. The readers
want it.

It would be interesting to know why CD players are a bigger percentage
than DVD players. We could speculate that Stereophile readers are
purchasing expensive CD players (since they're about the only kind of
dedicated CD players left) or that Stereophile readers are using a
bunch of old CD players.

Or we could conclude that we know little to nothing about their DVD-A
players, other than that if they have them they are not their main vehicle
for listening to music. I myself fall into that category....it sits right
on top of my SACD/CD player....and it plays DVD-V's and an OCCASIONAL DVD-A.
But it doesn't come close to being my main source of music.

[Harry Lavo]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Harry Lavo" said:


My argument is more like "How can you add enough dirt to
water to make it sound dirty, and say that's better than
clean water?"


I think a better analogy would be adding a UV filter or a
"warm" filter to a photography lense....done all the
time...in fact removal is the exception, not the rule,
for outdoor work.


Harry, you've got tone controls (selective, under user control) which
are
like photographic filters, mixed up with what the LP format does, which
is
to add arbitraily-chosen muddiness that the user can't do anything
about
because it is inherent in the LP medium.


You are right about what I was thinking....jumped to the bottom of the
argument too soon.


But as far as LP's are concerned, IMO it is still not mud....perhaps I can
liken it to a smidgen of grain left after I take a digital picture in the
near-dark at ISO 1600 with my SLR...then clean it up with software. There
is grain there...you can see it...but it really doesn't destroy the thrill
of seeing a picutre the way we and our human eyes see things. Likewise,
for
many of us (particularly those of us with line contact styli) the
occassional tic or pop doesn't get in the way of the music....and "behind"
those occasional tics and pops lies some glorious, transparent sound much
of
the time.


There's a perfect birthday present for Arns: a photocopy of a Matisse
to hang on his wall ;-)


LOL, truly!

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com
wrote:
John Atkinson wrote:
I fail to understand why you are obsessing about this
matter.

Well, it's pretty obvious why he's obsessing about
it...you said it.

There is that, of course, which is why Mr. Krueger
trolled me by starting a new thread to discuss a casual
remark I made a while back.

I've been pretty underwhelmed by the RIAA tracking for
years. It doesn't account for specialized retailers,
such as high-end stereo stores that sell vinyl on the
side, or most mail-order retailers.

Actually it does, but not by surveying retailers. John has been embarassed
and humiliated and driven to further obfuscation by find print from the RIAA
web site in the recent past. I guess that John needs to read a bit more
fine print on the RIAA web site such as the following:

"The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) is the trade group
that represents the U.S. recording industry. Its mission is to foster a
business and legal climate that supports and promotes our members' creative
and financial vitality. Its members are the record companies that comprise
the most vibrant national music industry in the world. RIAA members create,
manufacture and/or distribute approximately 90% of all legitimate sound
recordings produced and sold in the United States."

Note that the RIAA is not about membership composed of small niche dealers.

I guess it is a mystery to John how one can account for media sales without
surveying dealers. To understand this you need some experience with how
retailing works which John obviously lacks.

Retailers buy product from a distrubution chain that for all intents and
purposes is highly likely to include organizations that *are* RIAA members.
IOW record stores don't sell product that they create, they buy it from
someone else, and that someone else can track sales by analyzing payments
and shipments.

Payments and shipments are tracked in the normal course of business. IOW,
if you ship recordings to a dealer, you don't know what happens to them
until they are sold, destroyed, returned, or paid for. If they are paid for,
then and only then are they counted as being sold.

New recordings that end up in the hands of consumers without being paid for
are commonly known as "pirated" recordings. If John wants to claim that the
LP and so-called high-resolution recording market is dominated by piracy, he
can be my guest. ;-)

It also doesn't
account for all of the new vinyl sales on e-Bay, which
for years has been a hotbed of LP activity.



That's been my impression also, though if the RIAA are
trying harder to track that sales activity, as Mr.
Krueger claims, that would be commendable. Mr. Krueger,
of course, for personal reasons, needs to "prove" that
the LP sales activity you
and I are talking about doesn't actually exist.

These are intersting times for audio, in that the two
hottest product areas right now, in terms of reader
passion, are LP playback and network-distributed digital
music.

Atkinson calls it "reader passion", I call it "a noisy minority". One reason
why LP bigots are so passionate is that they probably sense that its all
starting to slip away. One shoe dropping was the termination of production
of the V15.

[Arny Krueger]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message



On the other hand, Arny didn't do a good job either. The
appropriate thing would have been to turn the other cheek
no matter what anyone said. Then he would have been able
to point out how he was a saint.

Remember, the current "Game Of RAO" has been going on for about a decade.

I don't think you were here in my cheek-turning days. You need to be an
old-timer like Middius to remember that. I pointed out at the time that I
have only 4 cheeks to turn, and that Middius had exhausted my personal
supply of cheeks with his incessant attacks.

What's going on here right now is that most of the more agressive parties
want to simultaneously represent that they have felt no pain as a
consequences of their incessant attacks on me, but that their wails and
screams are only due to moral outrange and interest in peace and quiet.

There's plenty of piece and quiet on Usenet, just go to some other group
than RAO. The other groups have done a pretty good job of controlling and
containing pointless aargumentative people like Middius and Jenn.

[Clyde Slick]

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! a scris:

Hey, Arns, here's a suggestion. If you want to see who causes the most
acrimony around here, why don't you leave for, say a year or ten? Yes,
you'll no doubt still get mentioned. You, after all, are still bringing
up this Derida fellow, and a host of others that do not appear to be
here any more.


After Clerkie left, I stopped making derogatory references about him,
OOPS!

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg has lost its mission notes.

I don't think you were here in my cheek-turning days. You need to be an
old-timer like Middius to remember that. I pointed out at the time that I
have only 4 cheeks to turn, and that Middius had exhausted my personal
supply of cheeks with his incessant attacks.

Here are your orders for the remainder of week 45, Cpl. Krooborg:

1. You will eliminate 20% of your hoard of obsolete sound cards. Recycling
is not mandatory. Trucking fees are not reimbursable.

2. You will seek and destroy vinyl relics being offered for sale in your
geographical vicinity. Your reports to HQ indicate you are seriously
behind in meeting your 2006 quota. Get cracking, Corporal!

3. You will beg forgiveness from your pastor for subjecting him to the
nastiness you generate in cyberspace.

4. You will abstain from acquiring any new turds. Period.

5. You will purge the following phrases from your language module:
"You have me confused..."
"Thanks for admitting..."
"You've got me confused..."
"[_____] is a liar..."


These are your tasks for the week, Cpl. Krooborg. Hut-hut-HUT!







--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

Here in Ohio said:


Or maybe "The Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies" would be better?
:-)


Obscure refernece noted, LoT:'S! ;-)

--
"Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks."

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com
wrote:
John Atkinson wrote:
I fail to understand why you are obsessing about this
matter.

Well, it's pretty obvious why he's obsessing about
it...you said it.

There is that, of course, which is why Mr. Krueger
trolled me by starting a new thread to discuss a casual
remark I made a while back.

I've been pretty underwhelmed by the RIAA tracking for
years. It doesn't account for specialized retailers,
such as high-end stereo stores that sell vinyl on the
side, or most mail-order retailers.

Actually it does, but not by surveying retailers. John has been embarassed
and humiliated and driven to further obfuscation by find print from the
RIAA web site in the recent past. I guess that John needs to read a bit
more fine print on the RIAA web site such as the following:

"The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) is the trade group
that represents the U.S. recording industry. Its mission is to foster a
business and legal climate that supports and promotes our members'
creative and financial vitality. Its members are the record companies that
comprise the most vibrant national music industry in the world. RIAA
members create, manufacture and/or distribute approximately 90% of all
legitimate sound recordings produced and sold in the United States."

Note that the RIAA is not about membership composed of small niche
dealers.

I guess it is a mystery to John how one can account for media sales
without surveying dealers. To understand this you need some experience
with how retailing works which John obviously lacks.

Retailers buy product from a distrubution chain that for all intents and
purposes is highly likely to include organizations that *are* RIAA
members. IOW record stores don't sell product that they create, they buy
it from someone else, and that someone else can track sales by analyzing
payments and shipments.

Payments and shipments are tracked in the normal course of business. IOW,
if you ship recordings to a dealer, you don't know what happens to them
until they are sold, destroyed, returned, or paid for. If they are paid
for, then and only then are they counted as being sold.

New recordings that end up in the hands of consumers without being paid
for are commonly known as "pirated" recordings. If John wants to claim
that the LP and so-called high-resolution recording market is dominated by
piracy, he can be my guest. ;-)


And what about that missing 10% that the RIAA doesn't account for. You
don't suppose that that could include the smaller manufacturers recording
and producing SACDs, DADs, and LP's these days do you? And selling *direct*
to large web retailers such as CDNow, Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, etc.
Do you Arny?

Think, man.

Oh, I forgot....you really have nothing to do with these markets.


It also doesn't
account for all of the new vinyl sales on e-Bay, which
for years has been a hotbed of LP activity.



That's been my impression also, though if the RIAA are
trying harder to track that sales activity, as Mr.
Krueger claims, that would be commendable. Mr. Krueger,
of course, for personal reasons, needs to "prove" that
the LP sales activity you
and I are talking about doesn't actually exist.

These are intersting times for audio, in that the two
hottest product areas right now, in terms of reader
passion, are LP playback and network-distributed digital
music.

Atkinson calls it "reader passion", I call it "a noisy minority". One
reason why LP bigots are so passionate is that they probably sense that
its all starting to slip away. One shoe dropping was the termination of
production of the V15.

Frankly, the V15 was done in more by the presense of much better, albeit
slightly more expensive cartridges catering to the audiophile market. And
as well by the abandonment of the LP by the more casual audio mavens such as
yourself who were its main market....abandonment in favor of the more
convenient but sonically less satisfying CD.

[Harry Lavo]

"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:15:24 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or scream. This is so blatently and
patently rediculous after the two day hiatus we went through including the

It really wasn't "normal discussion minus the insults." There was a
lot of talking about Arny's past behavior and speculations that he
wouldn't be able to stop insulting people.

True, because people were jaundiced by past experience.

However, when Arny was on vacation for nine days or so, we did discuss audio
and rarely mentioned Arny.


On the other hand, Arny didn't do a good job either. The appropriate
thing would have been to turn the other cheek no matter what anyone
said. Then he would have been able to point out how he was a saint.

Instead, Arny seemed to be looking for any excuse to resume
hostilities.

He was.

On the gripping hand, everyone else seemed to be too ready to give up
the ceasefire.

Shame on everyone!

I guess if we really want to quit, we can go to other newsgroups. There is
a certain morbid satisfaction in watching Arny self-destruct every so often.
And despite it all, enough audio discussion to keep it interesting.

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said to RibbetBorg:

Obscure refernece noted, LoT:'S! ;-)

Mock Krooglish is wasted on Kroopologists, note.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news
"Here in Ohio" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:15:24 -0500, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or scream. This is
so blatently and patently rediculous after the two day
hiatus we went through including the

It really wasn't "normal discussion minus the insults."
There was a lot of talking about Arny's past behavior
and speculations that he wouldn't be able to stop
insulting people.

True, because people were jaundiced by past experience.

No, it was true becasue they couldn't stop insulting me.

It was all a farce.