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#1
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
I've always been under the impression that avoiding clipping is a basic tenet of digital audio. Looking at this mastering tutorial, if I understand what this guy is saying, he deliberately introduces a limited amount of clipping - 2:30 "I wanted to get a little bit of clipping on the A to D".
?? http://youtu.be/2V9d6zQzcrg |
#3
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
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#4
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
On 8/03/2014 8:36 p.m., wrote:
I've always been under the impression that avoiding clipping is a basic tenet of digital audio. Looking at this mastering tutorial, if I understand what this guy is saying, he deliberately introduces a limited amount of clipping - 2:30 "I wanted to get a little bit of clipping on the A to D". ?? http://youtu.be/2V9d6zQzcrg That you have asked here indicates that yo do have some suspicion about this guys advice. Clipping = poor man's aural exciter. And even those are sus in the first place ....! geoff |
#5
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
geoff wrote:
On 8/03/2014 8:36 p.m., wrote: I've always been under the impression that avoiding clipping is a basic tenet of digital audio. Looking at this mastering tutorial, if I understand what this guy is saying, he deliberately introduces a limited amount of clipping - 2:30 "I wanted to get a little bit of clipping on the A to D". http://youtu.be/2V9d6zQzcrg That you have asked here indicates that yo do have some suspicion about this guys advice. Clipping = poor man's aural exciter. And even those are sus in the first place ....! All kinds of deriding comments could be made, anyway the guys job was to demonstrate how to use a whacking lot of waves plug-ins, and that he did, and while it resulted in all kinds of abominable sonic aberrations - such as a totally detached treble - it also is a demonstration of how to address invidudual sonic problems should they occur. So yes, it is worth seeing and listening to on reasonably good loudspeakers. You do not have to agree in the production method and aims to respect the guys craftmanship. geoff Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#6
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
Peter Larsen wrote: "...listening to on reasonably good loudspeakers. You do not have to agree in the production method and aims to respect the guys craftmanship. "
Craftsmanship?? Since when is destroying the music craftsmenship? As an engineer I can do no harm to my client's music - whether reproduced live or in recorded form - even if they tell me to do it or bribe me. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
wrote:
I've always been under the impression that avoiding clipping is a basic ten= et of digital audio. Looking at this mastering tutorial, if I understand wh= at this guy is saying, he deliberately introduces a limited amount of clipp= ing - 2:30 "I wanted to get a little bit of clipping on the A to D". There are a lot of people out there today who are unfamiliar with actual live acoustic music. They don't actually know what instruments really sound like. And, many of these people associate loudness with the sound of clipping because that's how they have listened to loud music much of their life. Correspondingly, adding clipping can give these people a sense of music being louder than it really is. Now, why anyone would want to do something so horrible to distribution medium, I don't know. We live in an age with a lot of "mastering engineers" who really don't care about the long-term prospects of their product. At some point, all these clipped recordings are going to be perceived as kids as sounding like the kind of records their parents listened to. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
wrote in message
... As an engineer ... LOL! You will never be an engineer. You're just too stupid. |
#9
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
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#11
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
Les Cargill wrote:
wrote: Peter Larsen wrote: "...listening to on reasonably good loudspeakers. You do not have to agree in the production method and aims to respect the guys craftmanship. " Craftsmanship?? Since when is destroying the music craftsmenship? Well.... distorted guitars, anybody? JUst horrible!!! LIke the guy told Zappa, that'll never sell. As an engineer I can do no harm to my client's music - whether reproduced live or in recorded form - even if they tell me to do it or bribe me. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#12
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
On 3/9/2014 6:45 AM, wrote:
Craftsmanship?? Since when is destroying the music craftsmenship? To some, making it louder and drawing more attention to it is a craft. There are many ways to do this, clipping is one. You wouldn't want to clip a chamber music ensemble to make it louder, but it's effective on a garage band where things are distorted on purpose as part of the sound. As an engineer I can do no harm to my client's music - whether reproduced live or in recorded form - even if they tell me to do it or bribe me. If you're working on music for which clipping is clearly inappropriate, then by all means, don't do it. You probably wouldn't even be asked to do so. On the other hand, if you're working on music where distortion is an integral part of the sound, you aren't likely to be harming it by driving something in the mastering signal path into clipping. It's not life-threatening. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#13
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
wrote in message
... I've always been under the impression that avoiding clipping is a basic tenet of digital audio. Looking at this mastering tutorial, if I understand what this guy is saying, he deliberately introduces a limited amount of clipping - 2:30 "I wanted to get a little bit of clipping on the A to D". ?? It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? I'll speculate that the concern is about the noise floor and gain staging: there is always (as far as I know) an analog stage before the A/D converter, and the noise floor of this stage is fixed relative to the converter: eg X dB below 0 dBFS. Even though the dynamic range of the converter itself can handle any peaks (by lowering the signal), the noise floor in the track increases as the signal into the A/D chip is reduced. Depending on the quality of the hardware it may be insignificant, but it's always non-zero and some case becomes the real limit to the dynamic range of the interface. So I can understand someone deciding to trade off some peaks that would be lost eventually anyway in favor of reducing the noise floor - especially if you're working with older or cheaper hardware. That said, I don't agree with it - even with my old cheapo Emu interface the noise floor is low enough to be unoticable in most cases, and is low enough to easily clean up if I'm feeling pedantic about it. For just about any decent modern interface I think it's a complete non-issue - just keep it well below clipping and it'll be fine. Sean (Anticipating many corrections .... ) |
#14
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
Sean Conolly wrote:
It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? Because it can be the cleanest limiting possible if you keep it shorter than some 2 milliseconds, depending on context/type of signal(waveform). Sean Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#15
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k... Sean Conolly wrote: It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? Because it can be the cleanest limiting possible if you keep it shorter than some 2 milliseconds, depending on context/type of signal(waveform). Well it's certainly going to be the least limiting you can get away with. Being naturally pedantic I'd still want to look at the resulting waveform before I'd adopt it as a normal practice for myself. I'm not going to assume it'simple truncate even though it should be. Sean |
#16
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
On 10/03/2014 8:21 a.m., Peter Larsen wrote:
Sean Conolly wrote: It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? Because it can be the cleanest limiting possible if you keep it shorter than some 2 milliseconds, depending on context/type of signal(waveform). As long as it's nopt clipping to FS on a device that's going to go make D-As go ape in unpredictable ways and spew out god knows what. geoff |
#17
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
geoff wrote:
On 10/03/2014 8:21 a.m., Peter Larsen wrote: Sean Conolly wrote: It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? Because it can be the cleanest limiting possible if you keep it shorter than some 2 milliseconds, depending on context/type of signal(waveform). As long as it's nopt clipping to FS on a device that's going to go make D-As go ape in unpredictable ways and spew out god knows what. Some opamps do technically fascinating things to the waveform when they clip, yes. I don't advocate clipping in tracking, but I also do not loose sleep over it if it happens because I know what Auditions unclipper can unclip to - at least for me - inaudibility. All should try to make some deliberately clipped samples, easy when processing 16 bit digital, align average level and listen to what is audible. I did that with a listening panel once upon a time, interesting results. You need to know what your equipment does when it runs out of bits ..... and you most definitely want to know in advance if it does not clip cleanly. geoff Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#18
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k... geoff wrote: On 10/03/2014 8:21 a.m., Peter Larsen wrote: Sean Conolly wrote: It depends on what you're planning on doing to the music - if it's going to be limited and compressed in post then there's probably no harm done by letting it clip a little during tracking. The question is why would someone want to? Because it can be the cleanest limiting possible if you keep it shorter than some 2 milliseconds, depending on context/type of signal(waveform). As long as it's nopt clipping to FS on a device that's going to go make D-As go ape in unpredictable ways and spew out god knows what. Some opamps do technically fascinating things to the waveform when they clip, yes. I don't advocate clipping in tracking, but I also do not loose sleep over it if it happens because I know what Auditions unclipper can unclip to - at least for me - inaudibility. All should try to make some deliberately clipped samples, easy when processing 16 bit digital, align average level and listen to what is audible. I did that with a listening panel once upon a time, interesting results. You need to know what your equipment does when it runs out of bits .... and you most definitely want to know in advance if it does not clip cleanly. Agreed - but I recommend looking as well as listening. Sean |
#19
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
There is a fundamental technical difference clipping the A/D compared to clipping in the analog domain and that difference is due to ALIASiNG.
Consider clipping an 8 kHz tone in the analog domain. The harmonics are 16, 24 etc. Everything above 16 will be filtered off by the anti-alias filter. |
#20
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
wrote in message
... There is a fundamental technical difference clipping the A/D compared to clipping in the analog domain and that difference is due to ALIASiNG. Consider clipping an 8 kHz tone in the analog domain. The harmonics are 16, 24 etc. Everything above 16 will be filtered off by the anti-alias filter. Now consider clipping the same 8 kHz tone in the A/D. The same harmonics are created but since we are now after the anti alias filter, the higher harmonics are not removed and they will be in fact aliased or folded back down into the audible range. The aliased tones are not even harmonically related after folding and will sound particularly nasty. I'm not saying you should never clip the A/D, but be aware of the technology. If the clipping is very brief or if you want grunge, then go for it. ---------------------------------------- I believe most modern converters are running the A/D at a higher sample rate and then filtering down to the specifed sample rate, instead of relying on an analog filter only. But even without that I can't see how clipping the wave at them moment it is converted to digital is going to cause aliasing. The truncation is just data until something converts it back to analog. Sean |
#21
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
Scott Dorsey wrote: "We live in an age with a lot of "mastering engineers" who really don't care about the long-term prospects of their product. "
I used to think that way - blame loudness & clipping all on the engineers. Over at GearSlutz they have explained to me that recording/mixing/mastering are service businesses, and that if you wanted to have food on the table and keep a roof over your head, yeah, you could educate your clients(the musicians, their producers) all you want, but then you would just give the client a hypercompressed, brickwall-limited ultra-loud master, if that's what they requested. So it boils down to educating the end-consumer as to what a good record sounds like, and what knob they should use if they want it louder. |
#22
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Deliberately introducing clipping?
wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "We live in an age with a lot of "mastering engineers" = who really don't care about the long-term prospects of their product. " I used to think that way - blame loudness & clipping all on the engineers. = Over at GearSlutz they have explained to me that recording/mixing/masterin= g are service businesses, and that if you wanted to have food on the table = and keep a roof over your head, yeah, you could educate your clients(the mu= sicians, their producers) all you want, but then you would just give the cl= ient a hypercompressed, brickwall-limited ultra-loud master, if that's what= they requested. Well, that's true, and again it's mostly the result of the client not caring about long-term prospects. Which I suppose is wise given the market for music in general today. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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