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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for 'reversed' operation). Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? It's not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles. Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface with this computer. .. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of the
programs that's grown silent, then restarting it? My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted Toshiba? |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mike Rivers writes:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. snip I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain Hibernate mode on Windows was a novel idea that still, after nearly 20 years, they've not managed to get right -- though it has gotten marginally better. In the olden days, it often flat out failed on the first attempt to wake up (even with no apps running, just the OS!), let alone multiple cycles. The idea was to take a memory and processor snap shot, write it out to disk as a big image file (including pointers to VM), set a flag so that when you "awoke" the system it was still a bootup, but a specialized one that just told the machine to go right to reloading that image. This saved a lot of time because all of that CPU-using configuration/process start activity was already done, represented in that image file. Theoretically, if you put everything back the way it was, the machine should be able to pick up from where it left off. Theoretically. Seems that processors and software have some ambiguous states when one attempts a "restart in the middle" like this. If you're lucky, you've hit things at a point where this works. Other times, something that could not be represented properly in the sleep image causes a stumble and there you go, head-first down the stairs. That's the gist of the problem as I understand it (and have had bite me with various laptops over the years). I'll be interested too in any updated info someone else might have. Much as I would have liked to use hibernation (even on the desktops to save boot time) I've just gotten used to doing a fresh start each time. Now, if your system actually keeps everything in memory and just tickles the memory to keep it alive, shutting down all the power hogs, like the CPU and disk, that's kind of neat. But there's still the potential issues of restarting the CPU at exactly the right point and resyncing with what's in memory. I imagine that would be pretty tricky business. Good luck with it, Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mike Rivers wrote:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. Nothing to excuse, some laptops have excellent inbuilt audio, all HP's in my household and @work are ok for serious playback, at least with headphones or if used floating. Grounding can create issues that require the use of a transformer if used with external playback implements ... I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for 'reversed' operation). Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up to vista. There seems to be some kind of geas on Microsoft to always break audio whenever they update anything. Is there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? No. It's not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles. It is a paging issue, stuff gets pushed to virtual memory - even if it is disabled. Happens agin and again with this HP, also when watching web video. Some of the time maximizing the video window will bush the audio out of gargle-mode, some of the time it is is plain stuck in it. Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface with this computer. You will have the same issue with an external interface, I have it also with a Midiman Duo, gargle-mode even can come on for the part of a concert after the intermession. I dunno if microsoft got audio right in windows 6 (vista) or 6.1 (7) but they took great care to break it after finally having gotten it right in w2k sp4. You can not rely on a hibernated xp-box to come out of hibernation with proper audio hardware access, it is a lottery. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of the programs that's grown silent, then restarting it? My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted Toshiba? Broken OS paging routine, it probably puts driver buffer into the disk-cache adding unexpected handling overhead. kind regards Peter Larsen |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have
tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be). Mike C http://www.pcDAW.net |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for 'reversed' operation). Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? It's not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles. The device drivers for all of the peripherals of a PC have entry points that relate to power management. Whenever the PC changes power state, such as turn on, turn off, hibernate, goes into suspended animation, various degrees of sleeping, etc., these entry points are called by Windows. If the code that backs up these entry points is defective, then symptoms such as the ones you are experiencing may be observed. You might want to try to update the device driver for the built-in audio interface on your laptop. Usually, the chip vendor has the latest-greatest version. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mr Soul wrote:
It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be). Mike C http://www.pcDAW.net I've always been mightily suspicious of the reliability of 'hibernate' mode geoff and yet more resources ! |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 12:04 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of the programs that's grown silent, then restarting it? Of course. And also making sure that nothing else is using the sound card (that I know of, anyway) Remember, this doesn't happen every time the computer hibernates, only sometimes, and I don't think ever after the first hibernation. . My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted Toshiba? I have no faith that Toshiba would have any understanding of the problem, so no. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 12:42 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:
Hibernate mode on Windows was a novel idea that still, after nearly 20 years, they've not managed to get right -- though it has gotten marginally better. In the olden days, it often flat out failed on the first attempt to wake up (even with no apps running, just the OS!), let alone multiple cycles. I do the same thing with my studio computer (a Dell) and the office laptop, an IBM Thinkpad. Neither has ever exhibited this symptom. So I'm inclined to think that it's something unique to Toshiba, maybe the BIOS, maybe memory management, maybe something else. There's an application program that automatically reminds you when you've plugged in headphones or an input, which I don't have running (since I'm so clever I already know those things). -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 12:55 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up to vista. There seems to be some kind of geas on Microsoft to always break audio whenever they update anything. Vent if you want, but when it works, it's fine, and it works most of the time, and I can always "fix" it by restarting Windows (don't even need a hard restart). I never use the sound card (or the computer, for that matter) for serious recording. Most of the time it's next to the couch so I don't have to get up if I want to search the Web to get more info about something I've just read in the newspaper, or check the TV listings. But now and then there'll be some audio playback involved, and sometimes it's there and other times it isn't. I hibernate my studio computer all the time, too, and that one normally uses a Lynx L22, not the motherboard sound card. It's always there when I start it from hibernation. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 1:04 PM, Mr Soul wrote:
It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be). There's never been an indication that the device has gone away, only the audio output. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 3:42 PM, Arny Krueger wrote:
You might want to try to update the device driver for the built-in audio interface on your laptop. Usually, the chip vendor has the latest-greatest version. I might give that a try. The computer is new enough so there might be an update. Should I look at Realtek or Toshiba? -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you
contacted Toshiba? I have no faith that Toshiba would have any understanding of the problem, so no. "Have you tried restarting the machine?" "Yes, yes, I have! Die, die, you underpaid, incompetent technician!" |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mike Rivers wrote:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for 'reversed' operation). Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely). It's an AC97 chipset, right? Might be able to find drivers, yadda yadda. It's not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles. Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well. Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface with this computer. snip -- Les Cargill |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On May 16, 10:35*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for 'reversed' operation). Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? *It's not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles. Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface with this computer. I've noticed a vaguely similar issue with hibernation here. IBM desktop running XP Pro with both a pci RME HDSP, and the inbuilt (presumably AC97) stereo chip. After the second hibernation cycle the RME tray icons are gone, as is the sound. Onboard sound still works. The HP laptop's sound seems to tolerate hibernation better. It's the wireless that hangs after a couple hibernations. rd |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
... I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into the jack on the side of the computer. I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to restart Windows in order to get it back. In short: M$ has had this problem form the start and they've never been able to get it right. My Win7 even repeatedly detects known USB serial devices again and assigns new com ports. The solution that worked for me is to buy a MacBook (Pro). I never shut it down. I simply close the lid and open it when needed. It's active within 2 seconds and it has never failed anything when coming out of sleep/hibernation. No matter how many applications that were open at the time of closing. Apple apparently does know how to do it.... Meindert |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
On 5/16/2011 3:42 PM, Arny Krueger wrote: You might want to try to update the device driver for the built-in audio interface on your laptop. Usually, the chip vendor has the latest-greatest version. I might give that a try. The computer is new enough so there might be an update. Should I look at Realtek or Toshiba? Realtek is then the audio chip vendor, so they probably have the latest-greatest. First find where the as-delivered driver is, so you can easily roll-back the change if it blows up in your face. Most of the drivers for a laptop are chip-vendor specific and thus not peculiar to the laptop vendor. One common exception is the video driver, most laptops customize this driver and you have to use theirs. Some laptop vendors have devices of their own, such as Dell's wifi. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
On 5/16/2011 12:55 PM, Peter Larsen wrote: Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up to vista. There seems to be some kind of geas on Microsoft to always break audio whenever they update anything. Vent if you want, but when it works, it's fine, and it works most of the time, and I can always "fix" it by restarting Windows (don't even need a hard restart). I never use the sound card (or the computer, for that matter) for serious recording. Most of the time it's next to the couch so I don't have to get up if I want to search the Web to get more info about something I've just read in the newspaper, or check the TV listings. But now and then there'll be some audio playback involved, and sometimes it's there and other times it isn't. I hibernate my studio computer all the time, too, and that one normally uses a Lynx L22, not the motherboard sound card. It's always there when I start it from hibernation. Lynx's drivers have always been first-rate. Hardware ain't bad, either. ;-) I would say though that their exploitation for SOTA converter chips is a bit in arrears. For the prices they get, they could probably have a 130 dB+ board on the market. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/16/2011 8:57 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely). It doesn't matter what it does if it gets the audio back without restarting Windows. I'll try to remember to try that next time it happens. I had thought about removing the driver, but the only way I know how to get it back is to restart the computer and let it do the "Found new hardware" thing. That defeats the purpose, though. Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well. I only used to use it as a safety measure when my laptop computer's battery only lasted an hour or so but I think it was Arny who mentioned hibernation here a while back so I started doing that instead of shutting down. It's worked just fine on my other computers, and this one, too, except for the audio thing, occasionally. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/17/2011 12:59 PM, Jason Warren wrote:
My fairly new HP laptop occasionally forgets in the same way after returning from hibernation. It also loses the built-in speakers sometimes if I just plug in headphones Well, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has observed this. I hate to ask one of those "Is this normal?" questions. g I'll try disabling and re-enabling the sound card next time and see if that brings it back. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/17/2011 7:53 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote:
In short: M$ has had this problem form the start and they've never been able to get it right. My Win7 even repeatedly detects known USB serial devices again and assigns new com ports. The solution that worked for me is to buy a MacBook (Pro). My computers occasionally find old USB drives as new. Another thing that this netbook does that's annoying is that it sometimes changes some basic Windows things. I only know what I've caught it at, but at times I'll have a screen saver or Windows event sounds that I have turned off. And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a Macbook Pro. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/16/2011 8:57 PM, Les Cargill wrote: You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely). It doesn't matter what it does if it gets the audio back without restarting Windows. I'll try to remember to try that next time it happens. I had thought about removing the driver, but the only way I know how to get it back is to restart the computer and let it do the "Found new hardware" thing. That defeats the purpose, though. Don't remove it; disable/reenable the device. That resets the driver - or something. Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well. I only used to use it as a safety measure when my laptop computer's battery only lasted an hour or so but I think it was Arny who mentioned hibernation here a while back so I started doing that instead of shutting down. It's worked just fine on my other computers, and this one, too, except for the audio thing, occasionally. -- Les Cargill |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On May 17, 2:30*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
I've just noticed that after further hibercycles that the windows mixer handle (tray icon) is also missing. The sound still plays, though. rd |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
... And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a Macbook Pro. I can understand that. My "problem" is that to me it is extremely annoying. I develop hardware and software for living and I would be very embarassed if my products would behave like that. I also often compare it to a car: Nobody would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept this behaviour from something like windows? Meindert |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Meindert Sprang wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a Macbook Pro. I can understand that. My "problem" is that to me it is extremely annoying. I develop hardware and software for living and I would be very embarassed if my products would behave like that. I also often compare it to a car: Nobody would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept this behaviour from something like windows? Well, I've had to do exactly that with a bus full of people before now. It has 4 (count 'em) ECUs, all linked by a UTP databus. It turned out to be a hardware problem confusing the firmware in the end, but still..... I accept computer unreliability because I push the limits of what the system will do. Windows XP with no swapfile, as there's no room on the boot device. Video editing on a laptop...... While I might not be able to get a Mac to fall over, I have definitely broken Linux and Windows in interesting ways just by using them. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
John Williamson wrote:
While I might not be able to get a Mac to fall over, I have definitely broken Linux and Windows in interesting ways just by using them. having to record with a laptop would put in in the hands of the gustly greezers, other than that this hp laptop just keeps working and keeps reliably and consistently resuming after hibernation, albeit with gargled sound. Since I don't use it with sound and didn't get it with sound on my mind it does what I need and what I bought it for in a very nice way. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/17/2011 10:45 PM, RD Jones wrote:
I've just noticed that after further hibercycles that the windows mixer handle (tray icon) is also missing. The sound still plays, though. That has happened occasionally with my other computers occasionally, though I can't tie it to hibernation. I rarely access the volume control so I don't notice that the icon is missing until I get no sound and I want to check to see if it's muted. ;( -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
On 5/18/2011 3:36 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote:
Nobody would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept this behaviour from something like windows? Probably because we don't pay nearly as much for our computers as we do for our cars, though I'm sure some do (at both ends of the scale). Also, people don't get killed or injured when operating a computer, so there's no oversight. If computers cost $20,000 and you had to get a license before using one, we'd probably have a better system overall. Ain't free enterprise and democracy great?. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Another PC Oddity
Mike Rivers writes:
On 5/18/2011 3:36 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote: Nobody would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept this behaviour from something like windows? Probably because we don't pay nearly as much for our computers as we do for our cars, though I'm sure some do (at both ends of the scale). Also, people don't get killed or injured when operating a computer, so there's no oversight. If computers cost $20,000 and you had to get a license before using one, we'd probably have a better system overall. Ain't free enterprise and democracy great?. Back in another life I owned a "baby Sparc" Sun workstation. The thing initially had hardware issues, but under the warranty Sun was fantastic about air-freighting either the chassis or the single main-board that had everything on it. (The monstrous 326 Mbyte drive -- that's mega, not giga -- sat in a large shoe box under the desk.) It typically would run 300 days or so without the need for a boot. Apps would occasionally crash, but the OS didn't miss a beat. No such thing as memory leaks! Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best* keyboard I have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs). My clients of that era had rooms full of Suns and most of them behaved the same flawless way. The DEC machines were pretty good, too. But here's the gotcha that most people today would never tolerate: a US$9,000 price tag, probably $15,000 today (setting aside Moore's law for the moment). So we wind up with commodity stuff that is el cheapo. Runs "good enough" for most people. Makes a lot of us crazy at times, knowing what *is* possible with computer reliability and manufacturer/dealer support.... Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#32
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Another PC Oddity
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... I also often compare it to a car: Nobody would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept this behaviour from something like windows? Some cars DO behave like that, or worse! (and not just old ones either) And I have to reboot my personal video recorder far more often than my windows computers, except there is no way to fix it with an update, because unlike Microsoft, they don't bother writing any. Trevor. |
#33
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Another PC Oddity
"Soundhaspriority" writes:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message nacquisition... Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best* keyboard I have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs). A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for around $165, the design is available with keyswitches. Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember searching several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#34
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Another PC Oddity
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition... But here's the gotcha that most people today would never tolerate: a US$9,000 price tag, probably $15,000 today (setting aside Moore's law for the moment). So we wind up with commodity stuff that is el cheapo. Runs "good enough" for most people. Makes a lot of us crazy at times, knowing what *is* possible with computer reliability and manufacturer/dealer support.... A MacBook Pro is not even twice as expensive as a hi-end "windows" laptop. OS X compares in price to Windows 7, although an OS X upgrade can be bought for 1/5 of the price of a Windows upgrade. Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in favour of the OS X..... With the difference in revenues and market share between Microsoft and Apple in favour of MS, one should expect that Windows would be more stable than OS X. Meindert |
#35
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Another PC Oddity
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
Given the longevity of the keyboards at my place, I would say they are built to last. Do you find the longetivity of commodity keyboards to be problematical? I have been using Chicony keyboards for years and years. They run me about $10 at a local PC store. They have printed keys, so A, S, E, O, and L lose their nomenclature after a few years. But we're all supposed to touch type, right? I've actually run one of them into the ground, which took about 6-8 years of fairly heavy use... the 2 key is getting more and more intermittant. I might be more picky about keyboard feel, but I have to use so many other keyboards so much of the time and I have no control over them. |
#36
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Another PC Oddity
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
message Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in favour of the OS X..... With the difference in revenues and market share between Microsoft and Apple in favour of MS, one should expect that Windows would be more stable than OS X. At this point Apple computers are 99.9% ordinary PC clones with a specific set of on-board devices. And that is *a* if not *the* major source of reliability problems with PCs, the incredibly larger base of *dfferent* installed hardware and software. IME Windows XP and 7 are utterly reliable provided that you have decent hardware software and drivers runing on or under them. I have friends and relatives with Macs and they seem to spend at last as much time, but a lot more money on broken hardware as I do. |
#37
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Another PC Oddity
"Trevor" wrote in message
u "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... A MacBook Pro is not even twice as expensive as a hi-end "windows" laptop. Considering they are almost identical hardware wise, that is a complete rip off however. And the Mac die-hards can't even say how much better their Motorola CPU's are than Intel any more! :-) Yes, at this point a Mac is just a PC with a very limited amount of options for hardware, particularly on the system board. I'll give Apple credit for having generally very good taste in on-board hardware. But, its not the fault of MS or Intel that there are schlock shops in the world that are creating system boards from #&%%. |
#38
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Another PC Oddity
"Les Cargill" wrote in message
Meindert Sprang wrote: "Frank wrote in message snip Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in favour of the OS X..... With the difference in revenues and market share between Microsoft and Apple in favour of MS, one should expect that Windows would be more stable than OS X. Money cannot buy stability. Well, money cannot buy stability does not improve once a fairly reasonable point has been reached. Crappy hardware can give you the runs, if you know what I mean. ;-) This being said, I've had XP systems that showed stability comparable to Linux. Back in the day I was responsible for setting up and supporting a large number of Windows 3.1 (!!!!) systems that were essentially perfectly stable aside from minimal hardware and almost vanishing power failures. I've had systems run perfectly for 10 years and then get hit by lightening. Who knows how long they might have run? (1) Stable hardware with stable drivers. (2) Isolated systems on a LAN, and no WAN in sight. (3) Well-written, stable application software. (4) The operators were well-trained in terms of what they needed to do and had no interest in anything else. This was followed by similar experiences with Win95, Win98, Win2000, Win XP.... But if these 4 points were deviated from... it could get real ugly. |
#39
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Another PC Oddity
In article isition,
Frank Stearns wrote: "Soundhaspriority" writes: "Frank Stearns" wrote in message inacquisition... Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best* keyboard I have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs). A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for around $165, the design is available with keyswitches. Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember searching several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends. What happened is that a few years ago, Sun went from the proprietary serial interface of the Type 4 and Type 5 keyboards to using a standard USB interface on the Type 6 keyboard. You can get a Type 6 keyboard and mechanical ball mouse as a kit by ordering a "US/Unix Type 6 USB country kit" from Sun, part number X3538A. You can probably find them on ebay as well. The keyboard only appears to be a 370-3632. Note that there is an alternative layout Type 6 available as well, and a Type 7. You don't want those. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I still want the old Type 3 keyboard for the Sun-3 machines. It was much heavier and clickier than the later ones. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#40
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Another PC Oddity
"Soundhaspriority" writes:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message nacquisition... "Soundhaspriority" writes: "Frank Stearns" wrote in message linacquisition... Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best* keyboard I have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs). A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for around $165, the design is available with keyswitches. Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember searching several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends. -- http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/hhkeyboard.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-.../dp/B000EXZ0VC The "Professional" is the version with mechanical keyswitches, if you feel the need to duplicate the feel of the Sun keyboard. For me, the layout is the big thing. Thanks for the info, Bob. For me, it's the touch force required. It seems that almost universally KBs need 2-3 ounces of force and for me, an excessive amount of key travel to do the job. Back in the olden days I used IBM Selectic typewriters and loved the incredible speed possible with that short travel, ultra-low-force touch, even though I'm told that some secretaries hated that, perhaps because they were used to the high-force required with manual typewriters. Silly secretaries! I'm told they're also the ones driving the location flip of the left control key and left caps lock key. Argh!! Who uses caps lock as often as control?? Why the awkward reach down to get the control key? What was wrong with the old VT100 standard? Needless to say, all my machines have those two keys remapped to be flipped. I digress. In terms of KB force, I've found a couple different exceptions, a Memorex (of all things) and cheapie old Keytronic. While both have more travel than I'd like, the force level is lighter than usual, and that helps. Perhaps of even greater interest is the mouse. The Sun meece had a mouse button push force of 0.9 to 1.0 ounces (I measured it!). Most standard mice require 3 to 3.5 ounces. After a while, that really hurts my clickin' finger. I have two very old Microsoft meece, and their newer wireless meece, that come in at around 1.2 to 1.8 ounces. Better, but I still preferred the Sun mouse. Raised, long buttons; you could vary the force you wanted by moving your finger contact point back and forth along that long button. Anyway. My "if I were King" wish would be that keyboards and mice provide a simple force-activation-required specification for easy comparison. Thanks again for the info, Frank Mobile Audio -- |
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