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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit
some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones
into the jack on the side of the computer.

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.
It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I
want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles
going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain
that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window
shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's
muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for
'reversed' operation).

Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there
any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? It's not a
big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be
a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output
amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation
time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It
seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles.

Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal
audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for
Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows
default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface
with this computer.


..


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of the
programs that's grown silent, then restarting it?

My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted Toshiba?


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Mike Rivers writes:

I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.


snip

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.


want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles
going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain


Hibernate mode on Windows was a novel idea that still, after nearly 20 years,
they've not managed to get right -- though it has gotten marginally better. In the
olden days, it often flat out failed on the first attempt to wake up (even with no
apps running, just the OS!), let alone multiple cycles.

The idea was to take a memory and processor snap shot, write it out to disk as a big
image file (including pointers to VM), set a flag so that when you "awoke" the
system it was still a bootup, but a specialized one that just told the machine to go
right to reloading that image. This saved a lot of time because all of that
CPU-using configuration/process start activity was already done, represented in that
image file.

Theoretically, if you put everything back the way it was, the machine should be able
to pick up from where it left off.

Theoretically.

Seems that processors and software have some ambiguous states when one attempts a
"restart in the middle" like this. If you're lucky, you've hit things at a point
where this works. Other times, something that could not be represented properly in
the sleep image causes a stumble and there you go, head-first down the stairs.

That's the gist of the problem as I understand it (and have had bite me with various
laptops over the years). I'll be interested too in any updated info someone else
might have.

Much as I would have liked to use hibernation (even on the desktops to save
boot time) I've just gotten used to doing a fresh start each time.

Now, if your system actually keeps everything in memory and just tickles the memory
to keep it alive, shutting down all the power hogs, like the CPU and disk, that's
kind of neat. But there's still the potential issues of restarting the CPU at
exactly the right point and resyncing with what's in memory. I imagine that would be
pretty tricky business.

Good luck with it,

Frank
Mobile Audio
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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:

I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit
some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones
into the jack on the side of the computer.


Nothing to excuse, some laptops have excellent inbuilt audio, all HP's in my
household and @work are ok for serious playback, at least with headphones or
if used floating. Grounding can create issues that require the use of a
transformer if used with external playback implements ...

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.
It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly
when I want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few
cycles going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and
have to restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't
complain that they can't find a playback device, the Windows
Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio device, and the mixer
doesn't show that it's muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute
button and also checked for 'reversed' operation).


Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here?


Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up to vista. There seems
to be some kind of geas on Microsoft to always break audio whenever they
update anything.

Is
there any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows?


No.

It's
not a big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it
could be a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone
output amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of
hibernation time, but I've had the audio work after several days of
hibernation. It seems to go away after a number (unknown) of
hibernation in/out cycles.


It is a paging issue, stuff gets pushed to virtual memory - even if it is
disabled. Happens agin and again with this HP, also when watching web video.
Some of the time maximizing the video window will bush the audio out of
gargle-mode, some of the time it is is plain stuck in it.

Your next question is about whether it does this only with the
internal audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio
device for Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the
Windows default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio
interface with this computer.


You will have the same issue with an external interface, I have it also with
a Midiman Duo, gargle-mode even can come on for the part of a concert after
the intermession. I dunno if microsoft got audio right in windows 6 (vista)
or 6.1 (7) but they took great care to break it after finally having gotten
it right in w2k sp4. You can not rely on a hibernated xp-box to come out of
hibernation with proper audio hardware access, it is a lottery.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen








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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of
the programs that's grown silent, then restarting it?


My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted
Toshiba?


Broken OS paging routine, it probably puts driver buffer into the disk-cache
adding unexpected handling overhead.

kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Mr Soul Mr Soul is offline
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It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have
tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager
and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be).

Mike C
http://www.pcDAW.net
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here
running Windows XP. 'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but
when I'm traveling and need to edit some audio, I just
use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones into
the jack on the side of the computer.
I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into
hibernation. It uses practically no battery in that mode
and starts up quickly when I want to use it again. But
what I've found is that after a few cycles going in and
out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs
don't complain that they can't find a playback device,
the Windows Sound/Audio window shows the correct audio
device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's muted. (yes,
I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked
for 'reversed' operation).
Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on
here? Is there any way I can reset the audio without
restarting Windows? It's not a big deal, I'm just
curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a
Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone
output amplifier to save the battery after a certain
length of hibernation time, but I've had the audio work
after several days of hibernation. It seems to go away
after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles.



The device drivers for all of the peripherals of a PC have entry points that
relate to power management. Whenever the PC changes power state, such as
turn on, turn off, hibernate, goes into suspended animation, various degrees
of sleeping, etc., these entry points are called by Windows. If the code
that backs up these entry points is defective, then symptoms such as the
ones you are experiencing may be observed. You might want to try to update
the device driver for the built-in audio interface on your laptop. Usually,
the chip vendor has the latest-greatest version.


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geoff geoff is offline
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Mr Soul wrote:
It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have
tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager
and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be).

Mike C
http://www.pcDAW.net



I've always been mightily suspicious of the reliability of 'hibernate' mode

geoff
and yet more resources !


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 12:04 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Simply from a diagnosis perspective... Have you tried quitting one of the
programs that's grown silent, then restarting it?


Of course. And also making sure that nothing else is using the sound
card (that I know of, anyway) Remember, this doesn't happen every time
the computer hibernates, only sometimes, and I don't think ever after
the first hibernation. .

My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you contacted Toshiba?


I have no faith that Toshiba would have any understanding of the
problem, so no.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 12:42 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:

Hibernate mode on Windows was a novel idea that still, after nearly 20 years,
they've not managed to get right -- though it has gotten marginally better. In the
olden days, it often flat out failed on the first attempt to wake up (even with no
apps running, just the OS!), let alone multiple cycles.


I do the same thing with my studio computer (a Dell) and the office
laptop, an IBM Thinkpad. Neither has ever exhibited this symptom. So I'm
inclined to think that it's something unique to Toshiba, maybe the BIOS,
maybe memory management, maybe something else. There's an application
program that automatically reminds you when you've plugged in headphones
or an input, which I don't have running (since I'm so clever I already
know those things).


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 12:55 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:

Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up to vista. There seems
to be some kind of geas on Microsoft to always break audio whenever they
update anything.


Vent if you want, but when it works, it's fine, and it works most of the
time, and I can always "fix" it by restarting Windows (don't even need a
hard restart).

I never use the sound card (or the computer, for that matter) for
serious recording. Most of the time it's next to the couch so I don't
have to get up if I want to search the Web to get more info about
something I've just read in the newspaper, or check the TV listings. But
now and then there'll be some audio playback involved, and sometimes
it's there and other times it isn't.

I hibernate my studio computer all the time, too, and that one normally
uses a Lynx L22, not the motherboard sound card. It's always there when
I start it from hibernation.




--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 1:04 PM, Mr Soul wrote:
It sounds like a Windows bug to me (certainly not one that they have
tested). The only thing I can think of is to go to the Device Manager
and see if the Audio device is enabled (it probably will be).


There's never been an indication that the device has gone away, only the
audio output.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 3:42 PM, Arny Krueger wrote:

You might want to try to update
the device driver for the built-in audio interface on your laptop. Usually,
the chip vendor has the latest-greatest version.


I might give that a try. The computer is new enough so there might be an
update. Should I look at Realtek or Toshiba?


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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My gut feeling is that this is a BIOS problem. Have you
contacted Toshiba?


I have no faith that Toshiba would have any understanding
of the problem, so no.


"Have you tried restarting the machine?"

"Yes, yes, I have! Die, die, you underpaid, incompetent technician!"


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit
some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones
into the jack on the side of the computer.

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.
It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I
want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles
going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain
that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window
shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's
muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for
'reversed' operation).

Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there
any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows?


You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at
least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless
a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely).

It's an AC97 chipset, right? Might be able to find drivers,
yadda yadda.

It's not a big
deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be a
Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output
amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation
time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It
seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles.


Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well.

Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal
audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for
Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows
default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface
with this computer.


snip
--
Les Cargill



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RD Jones RD Jones is offline
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On May 16, 10:35*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit
some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones
into the jack on the side of the computer.

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.
It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I
want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles
going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back. Audio programs don't complain
that they can't find a playback device, the Windows Sound/Audio window
shows the correct audio device, and the mixer doesn't show that it's
muted. (yes, I've tried exercising the Mute button and also checked for
'reversed' operation).

Does anyone have an educated guess as to what's going on here? Is there
any way I can reset the audio without restarting Windows? *It's not a
big deal, I'm just curious as to why this happens. I suppose it could be
a Toshiba thing, that it somehow disconnects the headphone output
amplifier to save the battery after a certain length of hibernation
time, but I've had the audio work after several days of hibernation. It
seems to go away after a number (unknown) of hibernation in/out cycles.

Your next question is about whether it does this only with the internal
audio hardware and not when I've set up an external audio device for
Windows playback (or even program playback if it's not the Windows
default). I don't know, since I rarely use an external audio interface
with this computer.


I've noticed a vaguely similar issue with hibernation here.
IBM desktop running XP Pro with both a pci RME HDSP,
and the inbuilt (presumably AC97) stereo chip.

After the second hibernation cycle the RME tray icons are gone,
as is the sound. Onboard sound still works.

The HP laptop's sound seems to tolerate hibernation better.
It's the wireless that hangs after a couple hibernations.

rd
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Meindert Sprang Meindert Sprang is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
I have a Tosiba NB305 series Netbook computer here running Windows XP.
'Scu'se me for my simplicity, but when I'm traveling and need to edit
some audio, I just use the built-in audio hardware and plug headphones
into the jack on the side of the computer.

I usually don't shut down Windows, but rather put it into hibernation.
It uses practically no battery in that mode and starts up quickly when I
want to use it again. But what I've found is that after a few cycles
going in and out of hibernation, I lose the audio output and have to
restart Windows in order to get it back.


In short: M$ has had this problem form the start and they've never been able
to get it right. My Win7 even repeatedly detects known USB serial devices
again and assigns new com ports. The solution that worked for me is to buy a
MacBook (Pro). I never shut it down. I simply close the lid and open it when
needed. It's active within 2 seconds and it has never failed anything when
coming out of sleep/hibernation. No matter how many applications that were
open at the time of closing. Apple apparently does know how to do it....

Meindert


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

On 5/16/2011 3:42 PM, Arny Krueger wrote:

You might want to try to update
the device driver for the built-in audio interface on
your laptop. Usually, the chip vendor has the
latest-greatest version.


I might give that a try. The computer is new enough so
there might be an update. Should I look at Realtek or
Toshiba?


Realtek is then the audio chip vendor, so they probably have the
latest-greatest. First find where the as-delivered driver is, so you can
easily roll-back the change if it blows up in your face.

Most of the drivers for a laptop are chip-vendor specific and thus not
peculiar to the laptop vendor. One common exception is the video driver,
most laptops customize this driver and you have to use theirs.


Some laptop vendors have devices of their own, such as Dell's wifi.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

On 5/16/2011 12:55 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:

Crap XP audio drivers, down to W2K servicepack 4 or up
to vista. There seems to be some kind of geas on
Microsoft to always break audio whenever they update
anything.


Vent if you want, but when it works, it's fine, and it
works most of the time, and I can always "fix" it by
restarting Windows (don't even need a hard restart).

I never use the sound card (or the computer, for that
matter) for serious recording. Most of the time it's next
to the couch so I don't have to get up if I want to
search the Web to get more info about something I've just
read in the newspaper, or check the TV listings. But now
and then there'll be some audio playback involved, and
sometimes it's there and other times it isn't.
I hibernate my studio computer all the time, too, and
that one normally uses a Lynx L22, not the motherboard
sound card. It's always there when I start it from
hibernation.


Lynx's drivers have always been first-rate. Hardware ain't bad, either. ;-)

I would say though that their exploitation for SOTA converter chips is a bit
in arrears. For the prices they get, they could probably have a 130 dB+
board on the market.


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/16/2011 8:57 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at
least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless
a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely).


It doesn't matter what it does if it gets the audio back without
restarting Windows. I'll try to remember to try that next time it
happens. I had thought about removing the driver, but the only way I
know how to get it back is to restart the computer and let it do the
"Found new hardware" thing. That defeats the purpose, though.

Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well.


I only used to use it as a safety measure when my laptop computer's
battery only lasted an hour or so but I think it was Arny who mentioned
hibernation here a while back so I started doing that instead of
shutting down. It's worked just fine on my other computers, and this
one, too, except for the audio thing, occasionally.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/17/2011 12:59 PM, Jason Warren wrote:

My fairly new HP laptop occasionally forgets in the same way after returning from
hibernation. It also loses the built-in speakers sometimes if I just plug in headphones


Well, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has observed this.
I hate to ask one of those "Is this normal?" questions. g

I'll try disabling and re-enabling the sound card next time and see if
that brings it back.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/17/2011 7:53 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote:

In short: M$ has had this problem form the start and they've never been able
to get it right. My Win7 even repeatedly detects known USB serial devices
again and assigns new com ports. The solution that worked for me is to buy a
MacBook (Pro).


My computers occasionally find old USB drives as new. Another thing that
this netbook does that's annoying is that it sometimes changes some
basic Windows things. I only know what I've caught it at, but at times
I'll have a screen saver or Windows event sounds that I have turned off.

And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a
Macbook Pro.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Mike Rivers wrote:
On 5/16/2011 8:57 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
You might be able to disable and reenable the device. That will at
least tell you if it's the driver or the firmware/hardware ( unless
a disable/reenable fully resets the hardware, which is Unlikely).


It doesn't matter what it does if it gets the audio back without
restarting Windows. I'll try to remember to try that next time it
happens. I had thought about removing the driver, but the only way I
know how to get it back is to restart the computer and let it do the
"Found new hardware" thing. That defeats the purpose, though.


Don't remove it; disable/reenable the device. That resets the driver -
or something.

Hibernation is a great idea. It almost never works well.


I only used to use it as a safety measure when my laptop computer's
battery only lasted an hour or so but I think it was Arny who mentioned
hibernation here a while back so I started doing that instead of
shutting down. It's worked just fine on my other computers, and this
one, too, except for the audio thing, occasionally.



--
Les Cargill
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RD Jones RD Jones is offline
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Default Another PC Oddity

On May 17, 2:30*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:

I've just noticed that after further hibercycles that the windows
mixer
handle (tray icon) is also missing. The sound still plays, though.

rd


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Meindert Sprang Meindert Sprang is offline
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Default Another PC Oddity

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...

And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a
Macbook Pro.


I can understand that. My "problem" is that to me it is extremely annoying.
I develop hardware and software for living and I would be very embarassed if
my products would behave like that. I also often compare it to a car: Nobody
would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only
way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get
out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept
this behaviour from something like windows?

Meindert


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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Meindert Sprang wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
And, no, I don't care enough about these little annoyances to buy a
Macbook Pro.


I can understand that. My "problem" is that to me it is extremely annoying.
I develop hardware and software for living and I would be very embarassed if
my products would behave like that. I also often compare it to a car: Nobody
would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only
way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get
out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept
this behaviour from something like windows?

Well, I've had to do exactly that with a bus full of people before now.
It has 4 (count 'em) ECUs, all linked by a UTP databus. It turned out to
be a hardware problem confusing the firmware in the end, but still.....

I accept computer unreliability because I push the limits of what the
system will do. Windows XP with no swapfile, as there's no room on the
boot device. Video editing on a laptop......

While I might not be able to get a Mac to fall over, I have definitely
broken Linux and Windows in interesting ways just by using them.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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John Williamson wrote:

While I might not be able to get a Mac to fall over, I have definitely
broken Linux and Windows in interesting ways just by using them.


having to record with a laptop would put in in the hands of the gustly
greezers, other than that this hp laptop just keeps working and keeps
reliably and consistently resuming after hibernation, albeit with gargled
sound. Since I don't use it with sound and didn't get it with sound on my
mind it does what I need and what I bought it for in a very nice way.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/17/2011 10:45 PM, RD Jones wrote:
I've just noticed that after further hibercycles that the windows
mixer
handle (tray icon) is also missing. The sound still plays, though.


That has happened occasionally with my other computers occasionally,
though I can't tie it to hibernation. I rarely access the volume control
so I don't notice that the icon is missing until I get no sound and I
want to check to see if it's muted. ;(


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 5/18/2011 3:36 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote:
Nobody
would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only
way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get
out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept
this behaviour from something like windows?


Probably because we don't pay nearly as much for our computers as we do
for our cars, though I'm sure some do (at both ends of the scale). Also,
people don't get killed or injured when operating a computer, so there's
no oversight.

If computers cost $20,000 and you had to get a license before using one,
we'd probably have a better system overall. Ain't free enterprise and
democracy great?.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson

Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Default Another PC Oddity

Mike Rivers writes:

On 5/18/2011 3:36 AM, Meindert Sprang wrote:
Nobody
would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the only
way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get
out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept
this behaviour from something like windows?


Probably because we don't pay nearly as much for our computers as we do
for our cars, though I'm sure some do (at both ends of the scale). Also,
people don't get killed or injured when operating a computer, so there's
no oversight.


If computers cost $20,000 and you had to get a license before using one,
we'd probably have a better system overall. Ain't free enterprise and
democracy great?.


Back in another life I owned a "baby Sparc" Sun workstation. The thing initially had
hardware issues, but under the warranty Sun was fantastic about air-freighting
either the chassis or the single main-board that had everything on it. (The
monstrous 326 Mbyte drive -- that's mega, not giga -- sat in a large shoe box under
the desk.)

It typically would run 300 days or so without the need for a boot. Apps would
occasionally crash, but the OS didn't miss a beat. No such thing as memory leaks!

Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best* keyboard I
have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs).

My clients of that era had rooms full of Suns and most of them behaved the same
flawless way. The DEC machines were pretty good, too.

But here's the gotcha that most people today would never tolerate: a US$9,000 price
tag, probably $15,000 today (setting aside Moore's law for the moment).

So we wind up with commodity stuff that is el cheapo. Runs "good enough" for most
people. Makes a lot of us crazy at times, knowing what *is* possible with
computer reliability and manufacturer/dealer support....

Frank
Mobile Audio
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Another PC Oddity


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
I also often compare it to a car: Nobody
would accept it if their car occasionally failed during driving and the
only
way to get it working again is to stop the car alongside the highway, get
out, wait a few seconds, get in and restart it again. So why do we accept
this behaviour from something like windows?


Some cars DO behave like that, or worse!
(and not just old ones either)

And I have to reboot my personal video recorder far more often than my
windows computers, except there is no way to fix it with an update, because
unlike Microsoft, they don't bother writing any.

Trevor.


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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"Soundhaspriority" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
nacquisition...

Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best*
keyboard I
have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs).

A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available
with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for
around $165, the design is available with keyswitches.


Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember searching
several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Frank
Mobile Audio
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Meindert Sprang Meindert Sprang is offline
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Default Another PC Oddity

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...

But here's the gotcha that most people today would never tolerate: a

US$9,000 price
tag, probably $15,000 today (setting aside Moore's law for the moment).

So we wind up with commodity stuff that is el cheapo. Runs "good enough"

for most
people. Makes a lot of us crazy at times, knowing what *is* possible with
computer reliability and manufacturer/dealer support....


A MacBook Pro is not even twice as expensive as a hi-end "windows" laptop.
OS X compares in price to Windows 7, although an OS X upgrade can be bought
for 1/5 of the price of a Windows upgrade.

Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in favour of the OS X.....
With the difference in revenues and market share between Microsoft and Apple
in favour of MS, one should expect that Windows would be more stable than OS
X.

Meindert


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message



Given the longevity of the keyboards at my place, I would
say they are built to last.


Do you find the longetivity of commodity keyboards to be problematical?

I have been using Chicony keyboards for years and years. They run me about
$10 at a local PC store.

They have printed keys, so A, S, E, O, and L lose their nomenclature after a
few years. But we're all supposed to touch type, right?

I've actually run one of them into the ground, which took about 6-8 years
of fairly heavy use... the 2 key is getting more and more intermittant.

I might be more picky about keyboard feel, but I have to use so many other
keyboards so much of the time and I have no control over them.




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"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
message

Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in
favour of the OS X..... With the difference in revenues
and market share between Microsoft and Apple in favour of
MS, one should expect that Windows would be more stable
than OS X.


At this point Apple computers are 99.9% ordinary PC clones with a specific
set of on-board devices. And that is *a* if not *the* major source of
reliability problems with PCs, the incredibly larger base of *dfferent*
installed hardware and software.

IME Windows XP and 7 are utterly reliable provided that you have decent
hardware software and drivers runing on or under them.

I have friends and relatives with Macs and they seem to spend at last as
much time, but a lot more money on broken hardware as I do.


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"Trevor" wrote in message
u
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
message ...
A MacBook Pro is not even twice as expensive as a hi-end
"windows" laptop.


Considering they are almost identical hardware wise, that
is a complete rip off however. And the Mac die-hards
can't even say how much better their Motorola CPU's are
than Intel any more! :-)


Yes, at this point a Mac is just a PC with a very limited amount of options
for hardware, particularly on the system board.

I'll give Apple credit for having generally very good taste in on-board
hardware.

But, its not the fault of MS or Intel that there are schlock shops in the
world that are creating system boards from #&%%.


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"Les Cargill" wrote in message

Meindert Sprang wrote:
"Frank wrote
in message

snip

Yet, there is a world of difference in stability in
favour of the OS X..... With the difference in revenues
and market share between Microsoft and Apple in favour
of MS, one should expect that Windows would be more
stable than OS X.


Money cannot buy stability.


Well, money cannot buy stability does not improve once a fairly reasonable
point has been reached.

Crappy hardware can give you the runs, if you know what I mean. ;-)

This being said, I've had XP
systems that showed stability comparable to Linux.


Back in the day I was responsible for setting up and supporting a large
number of Windows 3.1 (!!!!) systems that were essentially perfectly stable
aside from minimal hardware and almost vanishing power failures.

I've had systems run perfectly for 10 years and then get hit by lightening.
Who knows how long they might have run?

(1) Stable hardware with stable drivers.
(2) Isolated systems on a LAN, and no WAN in sight.
(3) Well-written, stable application software.
(4) The operators were well-trained in terms of what they needed to do and
had no interest in anything else.

This was followed by similar experiences with Win95, Win98, Win2000, Win
XP....

But if these 4 points were deviated from... it could get real ugly.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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In article isition,
Frank Stearns wrote:
"Soundhaspriority" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
inacquisition...

Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best*
keyboard I
have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs).

A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available
with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for
around $165, the design is available with keyswitches.


Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember searching
several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends.


What happened is that a few years ago, Sun went from the proprietary serial
interface of the Type 4 and Type 5 keyboards to using a standard USB interface
on the Type 6 keyboard.

You can get a Type 6 keyboard and mechanical ball mouse as a kit by ordering
a "US/Unix Type 6 USB country kit" from Sun, part number X3538A. You can
probably find them on ebay as well.

The keyboard only appears to be a 370-3632.

Note that there is an alternative layout Type 6 available as well, and a
Type 7. You don't want those.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


I still want the old Type 3 keyboard for the Sun-3 machines. It was much
heavier and clickier than the later ones.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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"Soundhaspriority" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
nacquisition...
"Soundhaspriority" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
linacquisition...

Total stability, an amazing display (even if monochrome), and the *best*
keyboard I
have ever used (unfortunately not compatible with PCs).

A keyboard with elastomer switches and the Sun form factor is available
with a PC compatible interface. I use them on all my machines. Also, for
around $165, the design is available with keyswitches.


Really??? That's great news! Who currently carries the beasts? I remember
searching
several years ago and hitting a number of dead ends.
--

http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/hhkeyboard.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard
http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-.../dp/B000EXZ0VC


The "Professional" is the version with mechanical keyswitches, if you feel
the need to duplicate the feel of the Sun keyboard. For me, the layout is
the big thing.


Thanks for the info, Bob.

For me, it's the touch force required.

It seems that almost universally KBs need 2-3 ounces of force and for me, an
excessive amount of key travel to do the job.

Back in the olden days I used IBM Selectic typewriters and loved the incredible
speed possible with that short travel, ultra-low-force touch, even though I'm told
that some secretaries hated that, perhaps because they were used to the high-force
required with manual typewriters.

Silly secretaries! I'm told they're also the ones driving the location flip of
the left control key and left caps lock key. Argh!! Who uses caps lock as often as
control?? Why the awkward reach down to get the control key? What was wrong with the
old VT100 standard? Needless to say, all my machines have those two keys remapped to
be flipped. I digress.

In terms of KB force, I've found a couple different exceptions, a Memorex (of all
things) and cheapie old Keytronic. While both have more travel than I'd like, the
force level is lighter than usual, and that helps.

Perhaps of even greater interest is the mouse. The Sun meece had a mouse button push
force of 0.9 to 1.0 ounces (I measured it!). Most standard mice require 3 to 3.5
ounces. After a while, that really hurts my clickin' finger.

I have two very old Microsoft meece, and their newer wireless meece, that come in at
around 1.2 to 1.8 ounces. Better, but I still preferred the Sun mouse. Raised, long
buttons; you could vary the force you wanted by moving your finger contact point
back and forth along that long button.

Anyway.

My "if I were King" wish would be that keyboards and mice provide a simple
force-activation-required specification for easy comparison.

Thanks again for the info,

Frank
Mobile Audio

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