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#1
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
What do you folks think about this?
https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! |
#2
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote:
What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are. geoff |
#3
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/13/2020 11:06 PM, geoff wrote:
On 14/12/2020 6:15 pm, Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! I wonder what the actual origins of the capsules are. Dunno, but I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! |
#4
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
In article ,
Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. ~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound*, it's wrong!" |
#6
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote:
Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly. The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects. There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them. But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come from. I know a little more about Mic Parts they're very open about their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy building a mic from a kit, check them out https://microphone-parts.com/ -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#7
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 7:37 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. Can you recommend a U87 clone? Either in kit form, or fully assembled? |
#8
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Roy W. Rising wrote:
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the original. First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested. The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53 was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is, is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.) It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs.
"Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!" Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it. I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said. I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great." ::sigh:: Regards, Ty Ford |
#10
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 05:51:01 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
wrote: Per Mike's and Scott's comments, I get really tired of seeing knock offs. "Whoo Hooo! Get a Neumann clone for a fraction of the price!!!!!!" Stick with your SM58 until you can afford a real one. Then hope you actually know how to use it. I recall a conversation with a radio production guy many years ago who had a U 87 i. "Horrible on acoustic guitar", he said. I asked where he put the mic. "Right in front of the sound hole, OF COURSE! It was waay boomy. I don't know why people think they're so great." ::sigh:: Regards, Ty Ford When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift. d |
#11
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 21/12/2020 14:08, Don Pearce wrote:
When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift. d Irony Damn, you've been watching me... ;-) Unless it was me watching you... -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#12
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 22/12/2020 4:50 am, John Williamson wrote:
On 21/12/2020 14:08, Don Pearce wrote: When I record acoustic guitar, I like to record the whole guitar, not the sound hole, not the 12th fret, not the upper bout. About six feet in front is my favoured location in my nicely treated room. Not only is the guitar properly balanced, but only a smidge of EQ is needed to kill the slight residue of proximity bass lift. d Irony Damn, you've been watching me... ;-) Unless it was me watching you... An NTC in the mic lead ( or two for a balanced signal) will remove that hint of artificial bass-boost. Sorry folks, couldn't resist(or). Now Mr Phalluson, please take your biplar meds before you post again. geoff |
#13
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/14/2020 11:18 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/14/2020 3:13 AM, Paul Dorman wrote: Â*Â*Â* \I'd like to see some blind tests with a real U87, and see if people can tell the difference! That's what they all ask - does it sound like the real thing? Does your U87 sound like my U87? Probably not exactly. The important thing is whether it sounds good to you on your projects. There was a time when there were a few standard studio mics that clients expected you to have. I bought two, and still have them and use them. But I have a couple of other mics that "sound like" U87s that don't sound like either of my U87s, but they're useful in most places where I'd use a U87 and they're nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not familiar with this maker and I have no idea where his parts come from. I know a little more about Mic PartsÂ* they're very open about their designs and sources. If you're looking to save some money buy building a mic from a kit, check them out https://microphone-parts.com/ I'd like to see two blind tests: 1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! |
#14
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul wrote:
----------------- ** FOAD you vile lunatic |
#15
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
geoff = know nothing moron wrote:
----------------------------------------------------- An NTC in the mic lead ( or two for a balanced signal) will remove that hint of artificial bass-boost. ** Not the tiniest bit funny. Just plain dumb. Like the retarded idiot who posted it. ... .Phil |
#16
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
I'd like to see two blind tests:
1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell. That, by no means, indicates the any similarities. We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai. I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not. |
#17
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/23/2020 8:49 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
I'd like to see two blind tests: 1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell. That, by no means, indicates the any similarities. We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai. I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not. You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the same: pre-amp, room, etc. Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone, and the 1 real? Definitely Not! |
#18
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 24/12/2020 4:49 am, Ty Ford wrote:
I'd like to see two blind tests: 1) 5 mics. 4 real U87s, and 1 U87 Clone. 2) 5 mics. 4 Clones, and 1 Real U87. I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! I once EQed an RE20 to sound like a U 87 for my voice. For that one incident, the difference was very difficult to tell. That, by no means, indicates the any similarities. We (Louis Mills, Mark Patey and I) could tell the difference between a U87 i and a U 87ai. I guess, what I'm thinking here is that, depending on your tests, you might be convinced of anything. You'd have to run exhaustive tests on music, room (pattern response), preamp loading, and probably a few things I've forgotten to mention here to get any solid data. Would I trust your findings? Probably not. Then move a few inches and it all changes again ! geoff |
#19
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the
same: pre-amp, room, etc. Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone, and the 1 real? Definitely Not! But with mics, you also need to consider the preamps. We were using Flite Three's API preamps. I use GML and Millennia Media and a Pre-production model of a pre designed by Jim Mikles. Expect the mics to sound different in other preamps. |
#20
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Then move a few inches and it all changes again !
geoff It certainly can, but may not. Listen to this experiment in moving around a mic. My space is tight but not dead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIMf...channel=TyFord Ty |
#21
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/24/2020 8:13 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
You'd want to have a controlled test, where everything else is the same: pre-amp, room, etc. Would I trust anyone who claims they picked out the 1 clone, and the 1 real? Definitely Not! But with mics, you also need to consider the preamps. We were using Flite Three's API preamps. I use GML and Millennia Media and a Pre-production model of a pre designed by Jim Mikles. Expect the mics to sound different in other preamps. See if you can guess which one is the Real U87, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE ANSWER IN THE DESCRIPTION! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbjYaBV0Fc Again, I'd bet very, very few could pick out 1 real out of 4 clones! |
#22
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style, I don't hear big differences. Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one another. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#23
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote: I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Especially since there are variations even between the real U87s! U87s are pretty consistent. There have been production changes over the years, but even comparing the old style with the battery to the new style, I don't hear big differences. Very much unlike the U47, where no two of them sound anything like one another. --scott Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is used: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ |
#24
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is used: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the audio, I couldn't tell any difference. Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I use it to check audio or video quality on a recording. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#25
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/27/2020 2:27 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 26/12/2020 22:53, Paul Dorman wrote: On 12/25/2020 8:04 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: Â*Â* Again, I'm willing to bet very, very few people could correctly pick out the 1 Clone, and the 1 Real, in two blind audio tests. Â*Â* Close your eyes, and see if you can tell when the real U87 is used: Â*Â*Â*Â* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouB66R4QrXQ Between my currently poor monitoring setup and Youtube's mangling of the audio, I couldn't tell any difference. YouTube's audio is good enough. I have studio monitors on my home computer, and I can easily tell if a live concert YouTube video's audio was recorded with tape, or digital. It's like night and day. It appears the transition from tape to digital, happened roughly in the later 90's, or early 2000s. Mainly, I suspect the problem may have been with Youtube's audio compression or the choice of subject matter. I will happily use Youtbe to assess a performance, but having done the experiment, no way will I use it to check audio or video quality on a recording. Go ahead and use the best equipment you can, at a 192kHz sample rate, and I'll bet you still won't be able to tell Real versus a good Clone. There's no real good reason to be a microphone snob, especially with MP3s into Apple earbuds! |
#26
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/20/2020 8:26 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote: On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:37:25 AM UTC-8, Scott Dorsey wrote: In article , Paul Dorman wrote: What do you folks think about this? https://dachmanaudio.com/da-87i-vint...er-microphone/ It comes in both kit form, and fully assembled. I'd certainly love to save thousands! Everyone and his brother makes a U87 clone. Some are better than others. If everything else in the kit is true to the original, get a Neumann K87 capsule for less than $1K and put the Dachman capsule in inventory. Then do the blindfold test. Unfortunately there are two critical things that cannot be true to the original. First is the shape of the grille, which actually makes quite a difference in the sound. You can copy the material, but you can't copy the shape because it is trademarked and Neumann is very aggressive about legal action. So all the clones have slightly different grille shapes. The degree to which this changes the sound is something that nobody has systematically tested. The second is the diaphragm tensioning... the method Neumann uses today is a secret. The method all the people copying Neumann capsules use is one that Neumann abandoned some time in the sixties... and it can work well only if very skilled people are doing the work very carefully. The KM53 was finally discontinued when the woman who could hand-tension those capsules retired and they couldn't do it properly anymore. Today, Neumann uses automated tensioning methods which among other things means a consistently good null in figure-8 mode. Nobody outside Neumann has seen it in operation and it has not yet been copied. (Most of the other big companies also use automated systems but the Neumann method, whatever it is, is clearly different than the ones Shure, A-T, and AKG are using.) It's easy to make U87-style microphones, but it's hard to make them well and I am not sure it's possible to make them exactly like Neumann. If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. |
#27
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used? Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive difference to the end result. The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during the plating process, which in turn is governed by the heat treatment at the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place. All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do not show you. Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not disclosing any commercially sensitive information. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#28
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 8:16 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 13:54, Paul Dorman wrote: Â*Â*Â*Â* If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87?Â* This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY Â*Â*Â*Â* And I don't see anything too special here, really.Â* Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. The "secret ingredients" are not even hinted at in the video. How thick and how tense is the plastic sheet as delivered to the assembler, and how thick is the gold plating? What type of plastic is used? Just a couple of the variables I can see that will make a massive difference to the end result. The torque on the screws we saw being fastened, by the way, won't make a massive difference to the consistency of the microphone performance as long as they are tight enough, that is set by the consistency between samples of the tension given to it by the ring it is mounted on during the plating process, which in turn is governedÂ* by the heat treatment at the initial mounting and plating stages. All the mounting ring you see being fastened does is to lock that initial tension in place. All the stuff you see is of minor importance compared to what they do not show you. Don't forget that video was passed by the legal department as not disclosing any commercially sensitive information. High quality capsule are readily available from many suppliers: http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery! Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world! |
#29
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote:
High quality capsule are readily available from many suppliers: http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery! I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere, but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient". Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world! As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have many "secret ingredients". -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#30
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 17:25, Paul Dorman wrote: Â*Â* High quality capsule are readily available from many suppliers: Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/parts/Capsules.html Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* https://microphone-parts.com/product...ophone-capsule Â*Â* I'd say the "secret ingredient" is marketing hype, and mic-snobbery! I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere, but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient". I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people, which means those differences don't matter. Â*Â*Â* Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world! As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have many "secret ingredients". Not really. Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets. And I like Yamahas better! |
#31
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY Because that video doesn't show anything important. And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. There are two things they will not show you: 1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm. 2. How the diaphragm is tensioned. The trampoline method that all the Chinese factories are using is the method that Neumann used back in the fifties, and it can be done well with very skilled people. A torque wrench tells you something but it doesn't tell you flatness, it only tells you tension at a few points. If you combine this with interferometry you can make a capsule with a pretty good null. It's not easy or cheap and you'll go through a lot of material. The method Neumann is currently using is automated and results in a ring with the diaphragm evenly tensioned across it and fixed into place. You can tour the Neumann plant but they won't let you look into the room where that takes place. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#32
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 29/12/2020 18:24, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote: I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere, but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient". I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people, which means those differences don't matter. If they exist, are measurable and we as professionals want to do the best for our clients, they do matter, even is only 1% of people can notice them. But have you any research to back up your belief? Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world! As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have many "secret ingredients". Not really. Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets. As it's all mechanical, it can easily be reverse engineered and the patents evaded, but it's not so easy to reverse engineer the precise tension in a microphone diaphragm. And I like Yamahas better! That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#33
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote: If Neumann is so secretive, then why did they agree to do a "How It's Made" video on the U87? This video is WAY too clean to be from the 60's! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZy-ThRXeY Because that video doesn't show anything important. And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. There are two things they will not show you: 1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm. The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is cut with. 2. How the diaphragm is tensioned. They DID show the diaphram tensioned! The trampoline method that all the Chinese factories are using is the method that Neumann used back in the fifties, and it can be done well with very skilled people. A torque wrench tells you something but it doesn't tell you flatness, it only tells you tension at a few points. If you combine this with interferometry you can make a capsule with a pretty good null. It's not easy or cheap and you'll go through a lot of material. The method Neumann is currently using is automated and results in a ring with the diaphragm evenly tensioned across it and fixed into place. You can tour the Neumann plant but they won't let you look into the room where that takes place. --scott Capsule construction is not rocket science. |
#34
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 29/12/2020 20:10, Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: 2. How the diaphragm is tensioned. They DID show the diaphram tensioned! They showed a pre-tensioned diaphragm being secured by a retaining ring to the backing plate and a spacer. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#35
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 11:43 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 18:24, Paul Dorman wrote: On 12/29/2020 10:45 AM, John Williamson wrote: I do not say that high quality capsules are not available elsewhere, but, while there is undoubtedly an element of snobbery, if there are measurable differences in either quality or consistency between brands, then there is, by definition, a "secret ingredient". Â*Â*Â* I don't believe they are noticeable by maybe 97% of people, which means those differences don't matter. If they exist, are measurable and we as professionals want to do the best for our clients, they do matter, even is only 1% of people can notice them. But have you any research to back up your belief? Again, there are plenty of mic shootouts on YouTube. Most people can't tell the difference. Maybe the differences don't really exist! Â*Â*Â*Â* Very similar to what Steinway did in the piano world! As Steinway hold 139 patents in the field of piano making, they have many "secret ingredients". Â*Â*Â* Not really.Â* Piano technology is well known. There are no secrets. As it's all mechanical, it can easily be reverse engineered and the patents evaded, but it's not so easy to reverse engineer the precise tension in a microphone diaphragm. Bull-S***. You only need a torque wrench, and any assembler could do it. Â*Â*Â* And I like Yamahas better! That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data. Not just me. Plenty of world-class pianists prefer Yamaha. |
#36
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 1:13 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 29/12/2020 20:10, Paul Dorman wrote: On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: 2. How the diaphragm is tensioned. Â*Â*Â* They DID show the diaphram tensioned! They showed a pre-tensioned diaphragm being securedÂ* by a retaining ring to the backing plate and a spacer. That didn't look like anything special. The gold-sputtered mylar just has to be flat. Watch this Soyuz video around the 1:50 mark: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...d-part-2-gsps6 The mylar is put into the tensioning ring, and tensioned by the technician by hand. He doesn't measure the tension with any device! Also, the technician securing the diaphragm to the backing plate, does NOT appear to use a torque-wrench! I'm not claiming the technicians don't need skill to do this work, but it's clear there aren't any secrets in capsule building. I would say reverse-engineering is the bane of all Mic-Snobs! |
#37
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. No, you're at least two orders of magnitude off. However, that's how the Chinese guys do it. There are two things they will not show you: 1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm. The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is cut with. Umm... no. It's flat. Not mils flat, not microns flat. It's hundreds of angstroms flat. It's flat enough that you put the plate on it and you don't see any Newton's rings. It is cut, yes, but then it's lapped and then sometimes a third process is used to make it still flatter. More than that, it's absolutely parallel to the diaphragm. This turns out to be hard to do because it relies on more than just the stator being flat. If you don't get these right, your null in figure-8 mode turns to crap because you can't balance the two halves of the capsule properly. Capsule construction is not rocket science. Most of it isn't. I can make a serviceable K87-style capsule with a decent null, after a good bit of practice. Making a KM84 capsule is a lot harder. But you look at the more modern pop-together designs and it's impossible to do any of those by hand. I suggest you try it. I thought it would be a lot easier than it is. Start with an M7 because it's definitely the easiest one to tension on a trampoline and you can do it mostly with jeweler's tools. You'll need to make custom jigs to drill the backplate but Neumann did something very smart to make it easy to lap it on a hand machine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#38
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
Paul Dorman wrote:
https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...d-part-2-gsps6 The mylar is put into the tensioning ring, and tensioned by the technician by hand. He doesn't measure the tension with any device! Also, the technician securing the diaphragm to the backing plate, does NOT appear to use a torque-wrench! I'm not claiming the technicians don't need skill to do this work, but it's clear there aren't any secrets in capsule building. This is the trampoline method I described. There are a couple steps left out of that video but it's basically all that goes on. Modern manufacturers do not use this method any longer, but it is possible to get consistent capsules made this way if you have enough skill. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#39
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 30/12/2020 9:13 am, Paul Dorman wrote:
Â*Â*Â* And I like Yamahas better! That is your personal preference, and one opinion is not data. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Not just me.Â* Plenty of world-class pianists prefer Yamaha. And some world class rock singers prefer SM58s .... geoff |
#40
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Dachman Audio U87 Clone Kit
On 12/29/2020 4:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Paul Dorman wrote: On 12/29/2020 11:35 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: And I don't see anything too special here, really. Assuming they use torque wrenches for the ring that mounts the plastic membrane, it looks like any assembler could do it. No, you're at least two orders of magnitude off. However, that's how the Chinese guys do it. There are two things they will not show you: 1. How the backplate is made optically flat and parallel to the diaphragm. The flatness of the backplate will depend on the lathe that it is cut with. Umm... no. It's flat. Not mils flat, not microns flat. It's hundreds of angstroms flat. It's flat enough that you put the plate on it and you don't see any Newton's rings. It is cut, yes, but then it's lapped and then sometimes a third process is used to make it still flatter. It's not hard to make a surface very flat. You'll have to Bull-S*** better than that! More than that, it's absolutely parallel to the diaphragm. This turns out to be hard to do because it relies on more than just the stator being flat. If you don't get these right, your null in figure-8 mode turns to crap because you can't balance the two halves of the capsule properly. Capsule construction is not rocket science. Most of it isn't. I can make a serviceable K87-style capsule with a decent null, after a good bit of practice. Making a KM84 capsule is a lot harder. But you look at the more modern pop-together designs and it's impossible to do any of those by hand. I suggest you try it. I thought it would be a lot easier than it is. Start with an M7 because it's definitely the easiest one to tension on a trampoline and you can do it mostly with jeweler's tools. You'll need to make custom jigs to drill the backplate but Neumann did something very smart to make it easy to lap it on a hand machine. --scott Comments from Richard Wielgosz: "If you're buying good parts like a Peluso capsule and transformer, the parts come out to about $575. It's not magic, the rest of the components are just common electronics parts. Caps, resistors, etc.... Neumann builds lovely mic bodies machined to serious standards, so using a less expensive body saves money here. The commonly used body is about $150 of the aforementioned price. Is it as nice as the Neumann? No. Does it need to be? No. The 150 one I've seen is plenty substantial. The rest is just how good the clone of the actual circuit is. And the circuit boards being used here are EXACT clones of a particular vintage U87 circuit. I think he cloned a circuit from a 1970s U87. So German capsules are between $600 and $800. Is the Peluso as good as the Neumann? Well, a friend of mine who is a well respected tech in the audio industry (he is known by everyone) uses Peluso capsules to replace capsules in any German mics he repairs unless otherwise instructed by the client. The Peluso U87 capsule is about $266. It is as good as the Neumann? My friend thinks so. But objectively is it? Maybe, maybe not, but if it's 97% there NO ONE is going to notice the odd 3%. So yes, if you use good components, these are faithful reproductions of a U87. They sound amazing. This IS NOT a clone of the modern U87ai, which has a different amplifier circuit and puts out about 8 dB more gain. So it is a little quieter, but the circuit is a clone of the real U87 I work with in one of the studios where I work, and give me that circuit all day long. Here's why it's possible to build a high quality clone for less than $1000 and certainly WAY less than what Neumann charges. You see, NEUMANN ALREADY DID THE ENGINEERING ON THE MIC 50 YEARS AGO. They were developing a solid state version of their U67 tube mic. Since phantom power was lower voltage and lower current than the PSU's available for tube mics, they had to develop a new capsule with dual isolated backplates, and a new amplifier circuit. THEY ALREADY DID THE MATH. Now, copying what they did is easy, and dozens of suppliers have very high quality replicas of their capsules, and this circuit is an EXACT replica of the amplifier circuit. The sound in mics like these mostly comes from 3 places. In order of importance it is probably the capsule, the circuit, and the grill/capsule basket. The capsules are high quality replicas, the circuit is exact, and the grill/basket varies depending on whose mic bodies you use. As I said, there is no magic here. IT'S JUST COMPONENTS THAT CAN BE, AND HAVE BEEN COPIED." |
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