"Powell" wrote in message
...
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
If you're dumb enough to get into this kind of debate,
it helps if you actually understand how amps
work.....................

Quack, quack, quack...

He's a duck. Explains a lot about his inability to learn.

Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

Quack, quack, quack...

If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims
like a duck, it's Powell!

Actually, Powell-spoor is only the incessant quacking. One response
for all situations that leave the poor thing tongue-tied.

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Did you check out the Behringer I posted a URL for a few days ago?

Maybe twice the power per channel for about 2/3 the price per
channel, as I recall.

Although it seems promising I didn't take time to check out the
Behringer.

Since Powell challenged with QSC, Hafler, and Crown I thought
those would be good places to start.

When you're dealing with Powell, a good place to start is the door, since he
has a long, well-known track record of not responding to reason or guidance
from people who are more experienced than he is.

"R. D. Davis" wrote in message

In article ,
"Rusty Boudreaux" scribbles:
I only speak for myself. Although, if tube amps were in the
mainstream we'd see them at retailers other than the odd high-end
shop.

If good amplifiers, period, were in the mainstream, we'd see more
solid state amps like Crowns and McIntoshes, as well as some nice tube
amps, sold by more retailers. Unfortunately, cheap junk is what
popular with the so-called mainstream.

In audio the mainstream is the Pioneers, the Sonys, etc. Their amps are as a
rule sonically transparent, even with difficult loads, as long as clipping
is avoided. More than you can say for the typical boutique vacuum tube amp
we see being hyped these days - example the Carys.

BTW, how do you explain there being enough demand for the reproduction
MC2000, 50th anniversary, amp for McIntosh to have designed and
introduced the MC2102? Yes, consumer demand resulted in this.

Sentimentality, bragging rights, and people with more money than brains
and/or charity.

No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

McIntosh isn't mainstream. Last I heard McIntosh was a pet image-builder
owned by a Japanese conglomerate.

No tube discussion in design related electronic magazines

That depends upon which magazines one reads.

No tube discussion in IEEE journals or conferences

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tube.html

This is just a tutorial review of well-known technology, and an isolated
occurrence.

IEEE Spectrum Cover story: "The Cool Sound of Tubes: One of the last
remaining tube domains is in music applications, but there the devices
flourish and even innovate", by Eric Barbour, August, 1998

A fluff piece by a recent (laid off or retired?) employee of a vendor of
tubes, namely Svetlana.

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

R. D. Davis wrote:

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and some
other companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of years. All ot these companies are quite well
established and have been in business for qutie some time.

They are all boutique companies with tiny production runs and outlandish
prices. Some are probably teetering on bankruptcy, and/or will disappear
when the founder, chief engineer and janitor retires or goes bankrupt. Some
are hobbies sponsored by serious work in other areas of technology.

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message
...

Note the title's emphasis on music,
not audio.



Yes, I noticed.




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"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.



Sharp, Sanyo and Technics are mainstraim.
They put out thousands of amps for under a $100.
That is the cost of a good set of ooutput tubes.
'Mainstraim' and 'good' are not sysnonymous.
Mainstream is usually crap.




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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

R. D. Davis wrote:

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and some
other companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of years. All ot these companies are quite well
established and have been in business for qutie some time.

They are all boutique companies with tiny production runs and outlandish
prices. Some are probably teetering on bankruptcy, and/or will disappear
when the founder, chief engineer and janitor retires or goes bankrupt.
Some
are hobbies sponsored by serious work in other areas of technology.


IDIOT!

Boutiques companies making small production runs of high qaulity
products, with the hands on individual attention of the owner/designer.

And you think that is a putdown!!!




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"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.

Sharp, Sanyo and Technics are mainstraim.
They put out thousands of amps for under a $100.

What is wrong with that. Where is it written in stone that every amp for
under $100 is incompetent?

That is the cost of a good set of ooutput tubes.

I've never ever seen "..a set of ooutput tubes".

'Mainstraim' and 'good' are not sysnonymous.

Nothing is sysnonymous, according to my dictionary.

Mainstream is usually crap.

Where is it written in stone that if it's popular, it's gotta be crap?

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

R. D. Davis wrote:

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and some
other companies whose products have been purchased by audio
hobbyists for a number of years. All ot these companies are quite
well established and have been in business for qutie some time.

They are all boutique companies with tiny production runs and
outlandish prices. Some are probably teetering on bankruptcy, and/or
will disappear when the founder, chief engineer and janitor retires
or goes bankrupt.

Some
are hobbies sponsored by serious work in other areas of technology.

IDIOT!

You always do seem to have this kind of negative reaction to factual posts,
sockpuppet. It should be a wake-up call, but obviously you're not conscious
enough to answer it in a useful way.

Boutiques companies making small production runs of high qaulity
products, with the hands on individual attention of the
owner/designer.

Just because its a short production run doesn't mean that its necessarily
any better than mainstream stuff. Some of these owner/designers are fairly
inexpert. I still remember one owner/designer who turned out to be a
teenager. His company folded when his equipment burned a few customer's
houses down. Does the name Rapaport or something like it come to mind?
Probably not.

And you think that is a putdown!!!

I know that because of the volumes involved, there's usually a lot more
engineering and product testing time and money in higher-volume products.

Sockpuppet Yustabe said to the Big ****:

Boutiques companies making small production runs of high qaulity
products, with the hands on individual attention of the owner/designer.

And you think that is a putdown!!!

Before we had mass production, assembly lines, multinational
corporations, etc., every manufacturer was a "boutique company".
Krooger keeps hoping the future will ride in like a knight in shining
armor and save him from the hell of the present.

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL,
Cary, Jolida and some other companies whose
products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of years. All ot these companies are
quite well established and have been in business
for qutie some time.

The Stereophile’s Buyers Guide index lists 119
power amp manufactures. 29% are tube
design. Some produce both types.

"Arny Krueger" wrote

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL,
Cary, Jolida and some other companies whose
products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of years. All ot these companies are
quite well established and have been in business
for qutie some time.

They are all boutique companies with tiny production
runs and outlandish prices.

It always comes down to the money you don't have
and your resentment of people who do. Why is that?
Is it because they are generally better educated and
more successfully? Obviously they could care less
about your financial limitations... or does it go
deeper than that, Arny?

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

But like
Arny you attempted to twisted your findings in an
attempt to coverup the embarrassment, mr.

Um, I'm not embarrassed.

Shouldn't you be?

Hehehe...

Just to reiterate: "There are areas where vacuum
tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv
transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to
mind. Audio amps isn't one of them."

"Just to reiterate:"... "Please list makes and models
of tube pre/power amps you have personally
measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10
years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last
20 years?" After all the distortions the answer remains
ZERO empirically experiences. It is always easy to
putdown what you don’t know.

"Powell" wrote in message

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

But like
Arny you attempted to twisted your findings in an
attempt to coverup the embarrassment, mr.

Um, I'm not embarrassed.

Shouldn't you be?

Hehehe...

Just to reiterate: "There are areas where vacuum
tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv
transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to
mind. Audio amps isn't one of them."

"Just to reiterate:"... "Please list makes and models
of tube pre/power amps you have personally
measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10
years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last
20 years?" After all the distortions the answer remains
ZERO empirically experiences. It is always easy to
putdown what you don't know.

Look at it this way Powell. In my book, sighted listening evaluations
comparing good power amps are meaningless, and comparisons of good power
amps and bad power amps are a waste of time.

That puts you at zero empirical experiences, right?

Of course Powell, you lack the introspection and personal honesty to
actually give a straight answer to this question...

Rusty Boudreaux wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.










If you define "mainstream" as consisting only of the brands sold by large
chains like Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., of course they are not mainstream.
OTOH, if you were to conduct a survey of what most audio hobbyists would call
a "high-end audio store" similar to the ones that, for example, advertise in
Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and in various internet-based magazines (or forums
such as Audio Asylum), then they are part of the audiophile retail
",mainstream". They probably are as "mainstream" as certain speaker
technologies, such as electrostatics and/or planar magnetics, or even more so.
Most audiophiles would probably consider Magneplanars, Martin Logans or Quads
part of the audiophile mainstream, just as many would consider the amplifier
brands I mentiond as part of their mainstream as well.



Bruce J. Richman

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

Rusty Boudreaux wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.

If you define "mainstream" as consisting only of the brands sold by
large chains like Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., of course they are
not mainstream.

IME, you can expand the circle to include the majority of high end audio
stores.

OTOH, if you were to conduct a survey of what most
audio hobbyists would call a "high-end audio store" similar to the
ones that, for example, advertise in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and
in various internet-based magazines (or forums such as Audio Asylum),
then they are part of the audiophile retail ",mainstream".

Since only a tiny fraction of high end audio stores advertise in national
ragazines, you've just confirmed my claim.

They probably are as "mainstream" as certain speaker technologies, such
as
electrostatics and/or planar magnetics, or even more so.

Similar in that a great many high end audio stores don't dabble in those,
either, particularly if you consider only full-range 'stats, ribbons, and
planars. More knowledgeable people know that even Circuit City and best Buy
have sold speakers that incorporated planar drivers. They weren't what you'd
call full-range planar speakers. Heck, even Singh's $25 tweeter marvels
incorporated planar drivers. So, you've got to be a little careful with that
planar speaker qualifier.

Most audiophiles would probably consider Magneplanars, Martin Logans or
Quads part of the audiophile mainstream, just as many would consider
the amplifier brands I mentioned as part of their mainstream as well.

Note that Richman pretends to speak for "most audiophiles". It must be that
mind-reading delusion of his that is acting up again.

"Rusty Boudreaux" said:

There you have it. The reference tube amp fails to equal the
SS
amp on any given parameter. Further, the reference tube amp
is
trounced by the cheap SS amp by a wide margin on most
parameters.

Yeah, but it has a thicker front panel! So there!

Hey, if you're a chubby-panel-chaser go for it!

Oh God no, the tube amps I build are just pieces of metal containing
the necessary components inside and out.
But thick front panels are cool :-)

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Arny Krueger once again engages in deceptive posting and fraudulent claims:

"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

Rusty Boudreaux wrote:


"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.

If you define "mainstream" as consisting only of the brands sold by
large chains like Circuit City, Best Buy, etc., of course they are
not mainstream.

IME, you can expand the circle to include the majority of high end audio
stores.


A misleading and false claim by Krueger, given his documented past history of
trashing these establishments, equating their products with "boutique" brands,
and repeatedly suggesting that above certain price points, especially for
amplifiers and CD players, no qualitative gains are to be made. Note, in
addition, that Krueger, who apparently has NOW decided for the first time to
include high-end audio stores in his definition of "mainstream", has repeatedly
argued for the benefits of such non-mainstream brands as QSC, Behringer,
Alesis, etc. Therefore, his claim above is obviously designed to simply give
him some "debating trade" crapola frrom which to launch yet another unprovoked
personal attack, which he does below in this very post.



OTOH, if you were to conduct a survey of what most
audio hobbyists would call a "high-end audio store" similar to the
ones that, for example, advertise in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and
in various internet-based magazines (or forums such as Audio Asylum),
then they are part of the audiophile retail ",mainstream".

Since only a tiny fraction of high end audio stores advertise in national
ragazines, you've just confirmed my claim.


A blatant lie from Krueger. And contradictory to his claim above that he has
now "decided" to expand the mainstream to include high-end audio stores. It
never ceases to amaze me how easily Krueger can insult the intelligence of
RAO's readers by trying to con them into believing that he has suddently, for
purposes of character defamation nnd personal atacks only, has suddenly, for
the moment, decided to agree with one of his many targeted enemies.

Claiming that stores such as the ones that advertise in Stereophile or the
Absolute Sound are representative of high-end audiophile establishments does
not at all suggest or imply that only these stores are part of the mainstream.
So Krueger, as is usually the case, is simply trying to draw inferences solely
devoid of logical reasoning. I could just as easily have said that a
prospective "high end audio customer" could find stores in his area by looking
under "stereo" in the Yellow Pages, or going to any number of websites that
many dealers have established. Note that the use of the term "high end" has
nothing to do with price, obviously, since many dealers carry brands like
Rotel, NAD, etc. which are not particularly expensive yet offer a lot of value
for the dollar IMHO.



They probably are as "mainstream" as certain speaker technologies, such
as
electrostatics and/or planar magnetics, or even more so.

Similar in that a great many high end audio stores don't dabble in those,
either, particularly if you consider only full-range 'stats, ribbons, and
planars.

Again, a statement that while true, is misleading and simply reflects Krueger's
ignorance - or deliberate attempt to deceive the RAO readership. Krueger has
deliberately generated a vague statement in which he does not define
"full-range'" and ignores the fact that at least one major electrostatics
manufacturer is known primarily for manufacturing hybrid speakers (Martin
Logan). And although I never mentioned ribbons, it is similarly true that
ribbons are often incorporated as part of a hybrid design. Companies like
Magneplanar, Martin Logan, and Quad have fairly widespread dealer ntetworks, so
their name is hardly foreign or considered exotic by most audiophiles.
Note also that perhaps deliberately, perhaps through ignorance, Krueger has
confounded the common use of the term "planar" - which I did jnot use in my
post to which he responded (I specifically said planar magnetic - a much more
restrictive term) - with terms such as ribbon and electrostatic. As is fairly
well known by most RAO readers, electrostatics (e.g. Quads, Martin Logan,
SoundLabs) and ribbon speakers generally all are referred to as planar
loudspeakers (in contrast to those using cones).


More knowledgeable people know that even Circuit City and best Buy
have sold speakers that incorporated planar drivers. They weren't what you'd
call full-range planar speakers. Heck, even Singh's $25 tweeter marvels
incorporated planar drivers. So, you've got to be a little careful with that
planar speaker qualifier.


Since compulsive liar Krueger has no empicirial basis to comment on my
knowledge re. the practrces of dealers such as Circuit City or Best Buy, his
false claim above amounts to nothing more than his usual arrogant, uninformed,
and unprovoked personal attack. But what else is new?

For the record, I'm well aware that planar magnetics are not the sole province
of Magnepan or its products. Eminent Technology, for example, has manufactured
small planar speakers for use with PCs (and if memory serves, so hase Monsoon).
And of course, these would not be expected to be sold in high end audio
stores. Similarly, Carver at one time manufactured rather large planar/hybrid
speakers that were sold, at least in my area, in large chains like Circut City.



Most audiophiles would probably consider Magneplanars, Martin Logans or
Quads part of the audiophile mainstream, just as many would consider
the amplifier brands I mentioned as part of their mainstream as well.

Note that Richman pretends to speak for "most audiophiles". It must be that
mind-reading delusion of his that is acting up again.




Once again, compulsive liar and fraudulent poster Krueger attempts to draw
conclusionis unwarranted by my use of the term "most audiophiles". Obviously -
to all except Krueger, whoee blind hatred and compulsive need to engage in
unprovoked personal attacks rules his RAOI behavior, my statement re.
audiophiles is an opinion I get to have - nothing more, and nothing less.
Therefore, it is quite clear that Krueger's false claim that I am pretending to
speak for most audiophiles is simply further evidence of his parnoid delusional
system making its predictable almost daily appearance on RAO. As usual, his
credibility is negligible.




Bruce J. Richman

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message

R. D. Davis wrote:

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and some
other companies whose products have been purchased by audio
hobbyists for a number of years. All ot these companies are quite
well established and have been in business for qutie some time.

They are all boutique companies with tiny production runs and
outlandish prices. Some are probably teetering on bankruptcy, and/or
will disappear when the founder, chief engineer and janitor retires
or goes bankrupt.

Some
are hobbies sponsored by serious work in other areas of technology.

IDIOT!

You always do seem to have this kind of negative reaction to factual
posts,
sockpuppet. It should be a wake-up call, but obviously you're not
conscious
enough to answer it in a useful way.

Boutiques companies making small production runs of high qaulity
products, with the hands on individual attention of the
owner/designer.

Just because its a short production run doesn't mean that its necessarily
any better than mainstream stuff. Some of these owner/designers are fairly
inexpert. I still remember one owner/designer who turned out to be a
teenager. His company folded when his equipment burned a few customer's
houses down. Does the name Rapaport or something like it come to mind?
Probably not.

And you think that is a putdown!!!

I know that because of the volumes involved, there's usually a lot more
engineering and product testing time and money in higher-volume products.


Arny prefers to live in a cookie cutter high volume production home,
rather than in a custom home produced by a 'boutique' builder.




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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message
...
"Bruce J. Richman" wrote in message
...
No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

As does Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VTL, Cary, Jolida and
some other
companies whose products have been purchased by audio hobbyists
for a number of
years. All ot these companies are quite well established and
have been in
business for qutie some time.

They are not mainstream.

Sharp, Sanyo and Technics are mainstraim.
They put out thousands of amps for under a $100.

What is wrong with that. Where is it written in stone that every amp for
under $100 is incompetent?


Let's try barely listenable.
The fact that they make noise is evidence of their 'competency'
That's the point Arny, some peoiple want 'more' than competancy.







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"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Sockpuppet Yustabe said to the Big ****:

Boutiques companies making small production runs of high qaulity
products, with the hands on individual attention of the owner/designer.

And you think that is a putdown!!!

Before we had mass production, assembly lines, multinational
corporations, etc., every manufacturer was a "boutique company".
Krooger keeps hoping the future will ride in like a knight in shining
armor and save him from the hell of the present.


You would think that the Kroo**** would have a different opinion,
considering that he himself runs a 'boutique' consultancy.




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"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message


Arny prefers to live in a cookie cutter high volume production home,
rather than in a custom home produced by a 'boutique' builder.

What a hoot!

My house is in fact the only known reproduction of the "All-Electric Dream
House of 1933" built at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair. The original was
torn down at the end of the fair. Therefore my house is totally unique. My
house was also the 1933 Detroit Builder's Home Show Idea House, and was won
in a contest based on guessing the number of nails in a transparent plastic
house. In 1933, the house was valued at $10,000.

In short, my house is not a high volume production house, by any stretch of
the imagination.

This brings into question Marc Phillips' claim that he drove by my house. If
he actually saw it, its various unique features would be immediately
obvious, even to a low-brow like him.

Life is sweet when you are arguing with a bunch of really dumb guys

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message


Arny prefers to live in a cookie cutter high volume production home,
rather than in a custom home produced by a 'boutique' builder.

What a hoot!

My house is in fact the only known reproduction of the "All-Electric Dream
House of 1933" built at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair. The original was
torn down at the end of the fair. Therefore my house is totally unique. My
house was also the 1933 Detroit Builder's Home Show Idea House, and was
won
in a contest based on guessing the number of nails in a transparent
plastic
house. In 1933, the house was valued at $10,000.

In short, my house is not a high volume production house, by any stretch
of
the imagination.


Thanks for making my point, moron. There 'IS' enhanced quality
in boutique, small production run products. Even 'you' don't
wish to live in a cookie cutter 'mainstream' dwelling. Although it is
obvious that a house or other dwelling is a necessity for living, houses
in the middle and upper end of the range of value sell as amenity items.
Prices of such houses are driven by the quality of life that can be derived
from living in a nice house. So it is for audio enthusaiasts. Having a setup
that reproduces music in ways that the user finds enjoyable is a
quality of life enhancement. To such individuals, a music system
needs to be more than meely 'competent' After all, a Levitt home
is competent, but rather small, simple, and without many amenities.




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"Powell" wrote in message
...
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote
Just to reiterate: "There are areas where vacuum
tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv
transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to
mind. Audio amps isn't one of them."

"Just to reiterate:"... "Please list makes and models
of tube pre/power amps you have personally
measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10
years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last
20 years?" After all the distortions the answer remains
ZERO empirically experiences. It is always easy to
putdown what you don't know.

I see no point. Regardless of what I say about my experiences
with auditioning, hearing, designing, analyzing, reverse
engineering, measuring, repairing, rebuilding, consulting or any
other such personal or professional endeavor you will find some
straw man argument. You questioned my experience and I informed
you I have amplifier designs with total sales of just a tick
under 3 million units. You've questioned my net worth which by
the preceding sentence indicates that isn't an issue even if it
was relevant in the first place.

The bottom line is you presented your best example (a $30,000
tube amp) and it didn't hold up technically to some of the
cheapest solid state products on the market. We even chose SS
amps from the "crappy" companies you suggested and they still
trashed your tube reference.

Your arguments have been torn down. Shut up or present a
legitimate case. We're all tired of your pointless quacking.

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" lied pathetically in message


Arny prefers to live in a cookie cutter high volume production home,
rather than in a custom home produced by a 'boutique' builder.

What a hoot!

My house is in fact the only known reproduction of the "All-Electric
Dream House of 1933" built at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair. The
original was torn down at the end of the fair. Therefore my house is
totally unique. My house was also the 1933 Detroit Builder's Home
Show Idea House, and was won
in a contest based on guessing the number of nails in a transparent
plastic
house. In 1933, the house was valued at $10,000.

In short, my house is not a high volume production house, by any stretch
of
the imagination.

Thanks for making my point, moron.

Nice attempt to recover from being proven to be an idiotic liar once again,
sockpuppet.

There 'IS' enhanced quality
in boutique, small production run products.

No, the house itself is a POS. Lots of structural problems. It's shortly
going to throw me into debt big time, correcting it.

Even 'you' don't
wish to live in a cookie cutter 'mainstream' dwelling.

Been there done that and it didn't bother me one bit.

BTW, if you want to get other people's reactions to living in a cookie
cutter 'mainstream' dwelling, you might want to ask your friend sockpuppet
wheel. LOL!

Although it is
obvious that a house or other dwelling is a necessity for living,
houses in the middle and upper end of the range of value sell as
amenity items.

Which has what to do with sound quality?

Prices of such houses are driven by the quality of
life that can be derived from living in a nice house.

In sockpuppet wheel's case, it appears that he's trying to mitigate the
purported horror of living in a cookie cutter 'mainstream' dwelling has
driven him to vinylism and tubism.

So it is for
audio enthusaiasts. Having a setup that reproduces music in ways that
the user finds enjoyable is a quality of life enhancement.

Works for me, even though I don't live in a cookie cutter 'mainstream'
dwelling.

To such individuals, a music system needs to be more than meely
'competent'
After all, a Levitt home is competent, but rather small, simple, and
without many amenities.

Would this be yet another autobiographical comment, sockpuppet?

"Powell" wrote in message
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at
the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs
and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps
isn't one of them.

Really, how so? Please site empirical examples
of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer
needs?

I never once used the word fail.

So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"?

I've enjoyed reading this thread. There is however one important
aspect that you all miss. Tube amps sometimes have a certain cosiness
in the way that the tubes glow. Especially if you turn the lights
down, you can almost see and hear the electrons jumping off the warm
thread. And they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow, for sure
you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...

Isn't that part of the experience?

Svante said:

I've enjoyed reading this thread. There is however one important
aspect that you all miss. Tube amps sometimes have a certain cosiness
in the way that the tubes glow. Especially if you turn the lights
down, you can almost see and hear the electrons jumping off the warm
thread. And they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow, for sure
you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...

Isn't that part of the experience?

I just sensed a great disturbance in the Hive.......

On 7 Jan 2004 13:29:25 -0800, (Svante)
wrote:

"Powell" wrote in message
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at
the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs
and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps
isn't one of them.

Really, how so? Please site empirical examples
of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer
needs?

I never once used the word fail.

So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"?

I've enjoyed reading this thread. There is however one important
aspect that you all miss. Tube amps sometimes have a certain cosiness
in the way that the tubes glow. Especially if you turn the lights
down, you can almost see and hear the electrons jumping off the warm
thread. And they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow, for sure
you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...


Don't get too excited and go jumping around naked in the snow and
beating yourself with birch branches before jumping into a red hot
sauna now, like we saw the nice Mr Palin do on TV.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...132036-3888465

Isn't that part of the experience?

Svante a écrit :

"Powell" wrote in message

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote


There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at
the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs
and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps
isn't one of them.


Really, how so? Please site empirical examples
of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer
needs?

I never once used the word fail.


So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"?


I've enjoyed reading this thread. There is however one important
aspect that you all miss. Tube amps sometimes have a certain cosiness
in the way that the tubes glow. Especially if you turn the lights
down, you can almost see and hear the electrons jumping off the warm
thread. And they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow, for sure
you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...

Isn't that part of the experience?

Timothy Leary disciple ? ;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

There 'IS' enhanced quality
in boutique, small production run products.

No, the house itself is a POS. Lots of structural problems. It's shortly
going to throw me into debt big time, correcting it.


It's time to sell your sound cards and settle with Wheeler!


To such individuals, a music system needs to be more than meely
'competent'
After all, a Levitt home is competent, but rather small, simple, and
without many amenities.

Would this be yet another autobiographical comment, sockpuppet?


I live in mass produced housing, but nothing quite that simple or small.
The value of my home is $230,000. It is a large
three level town house containing 2,400 square feet.
Its what I can afford on $78,000 per year. Sure, I would
prefer to live in a $800,000 custom home.




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Svante" wrote in message
om...
I've enjoyed reading this thread. There is however one
important
aspect that you all miss. Tube amps sometimes have a certain
cosiness
in the way that the tubes glow. Especially if you turn the
lights
down, you can almost see and hear the electrons jumping off the
warm
thread. And they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow,
for sure
you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...

Isn't that part of the experience?

Sure it is.

Earlier in the thread I commented I like the look of glowing
tubes...but not their technical shortcomings.

True to form Powell accused me of being "unsophisticated, just
easily amused or financially challenged". What a stand up guy.

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message


True to form Powell accused me of being "unsophisticated, just
easily amused or financially challenged". What a stand up guy.

Powell appears to have resumed doing what he does most of the time - he runs
and hides.

(R. D. Davis) wrote in news:vvkcsnlia6ui20
@corp.supernews.com:

In article ,
"Rusty Boudreaux" scribbles:
I only speak for myself. Although, if tube amps were in the
mainstream we'd see them at retailers other than the odd high-end
shop.

If good amplifiers, period, were in the mainstream, we'd see more
solid state amps like Crowns and McIntoshes, as well as some nice tube
amps, sold by more retailers. Unfortunately, cheap junk is what
popular with the so-called mainstream.

BTW, how do you explain there being enough demand for the reproduction
MC2000, 50th anniversary, amp for McIntosh to have designed and
introduced the MC2102? Yes, consumer demand resulted in this.

No mainstream amplifier company uses tubes

McIntosh uses tubes.

No tube discussion in design related electronic magazines

That depends upon which magazines one reads.

No tube discussion in IEEE journals or conferences

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tube.html

IEEE Spectrum Cover story: "The Cool Sound of Tubes: One of the last
remaining tube domains is in music applications, but there the devices
flourish and even innovate", by Eric Barbour, August, 1998


Actually McIntosh just unveiled a brand new product. Here are the
details:

"Product Name: MA2275
Exhibitor: McIntosh Laboratory Inc.
Product Contact: Ron Cornelius
Contact E-mail:
On-Site Contact: Sally Goff
Product Category: High-End Audio
Product Description: Tube Integrated Amplifier with 6 Program Source
Inputs, Tape Recorder Loop, Switched Data Output Ports, Electromagnetic
Input Switching and Front Panel Headphone Jack, the McIntosh Patented
Unity Coupled Output Circuit and the famous "blue eyes" of McIntosh, the
Illuminated Output Wattmeters."

A google search for MA2275 will yield pictures.


r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

Just to reiterate: "There are areas where vacuum
tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv
transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to
mind. Audio amps isn't one of them."

"Just to reiterate:"... "Please list makes and models
of tube pre/power amps you have personally
measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10
years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last
20 years?" After all the distortions the answer remains
ZERO empirically experiences. It is always easy to
putdown what you don't know.

I see no point.

Not having any practical hand-on experiences with tube
amps would demonstrate your total lack of practical
knowledge on the subject. The audiophile hobby is
empirically based.

Regardless of what I say about my experiences with
auditioning, hearing, designing, analyzing, reverse
engineering, measuring, repairing, rebuilding, consulting
or any other such personal or professional endeavor you
will find some straw man argument.

Arny makes the same association. Because he repairs
computers that makes him an expert on audio equipment.
I’m not impressed with your self-importance (narcissistic
viewpoint).

You questioned my experience and I informed
you I have amplifier designs with total sales of just a tick
under 3 million units.

"I have amplifier designs"... Hehehe, HAHAHA!

So if a search of patents was made your name would
be found regarding amplifier design, right... wrong?
You’ve done nothing which was not been overseen by
a supervisor, mr. Self-importance. You do even have
an advanced college degree in EE?

You've questioned my net worth which by the preceding
sentence indicates that isn't an issue even if it was
relevant in the first place.

“net worth”... is a business term which you would have
little understanding of. I referred to you as “Broke-Ass®”...
a lack of disposable income as the basis of your lack of
practical tube amp experiences. Auditioning audio
equipment in your home cost nothing more than having
a credit card limit to cover the loaner. What’s your
financial excuse for not doing so... bad credit?

The bottom line is you presented your best example
(a $30,000 tube amp) and it didn't hold up technically to
some of the cheapest solid state products on the market.

It always comes down to the money you don't have and
your resentment of people who do. Why is that? Is it
because they are generally better educated and more
successfully? Obviously they could care less about your
financial limitations... or does it go deeper than that,
Rusty?

Your arguments have been torn down.

I must have missed that post .

Shut up or present a legitimate case. We're all tired
of your pointless quacking.

"We're all"... Translation: Arny and Rusty, two peas in a pod.

"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote

Especially if you turn the lights down, you can almost see
and hear the electrons jumping off the warm thread. And
they MUST be warmer than those cold electrons of SS
amplifiers. If you listen carefully, while watching the glow,
for sure you can hear the warmth of those electrons. Mmm...

Isn't that part of the experience?

Sure it is.

Hehehe... "see and hear the electrons jumping off the
warm thread." Really, how so... Svante comment was
making a point with satire?

Earlier in the thread I commented I like the look of glowing
tubes...but not their technical shortcomings.

You failed to demonstrate any audible "technical
shortcoming" in the ARC example.

True to form Powell accused me of being "unsophisticated,
just easily amused or financially challenged".

Yup, I've got you number... amps = amps - tube amps .

In rec.audio.tech Powell wrote:


The audiophile hobby is empirically based.

Often combined with the rejection of simple logic.

said:

The audiophile hobby is empirically based.

Often combined with the rejection of simple logic.

But far less frequently with the abjuration of all pleasure in music.

In rec.audio.tech George M. Middius wrote:


said:

The audiophile hobby is empirically based.

Often combined with the rejection of simple logic.

But far less frequently with the abjuration of all pleasure in music.


All pleasure in music? All kinds of music? Every listener?

Really now...