I've been playing and digitizing my vinyl records from 20 to 30 years ago
and have found it surprisingly hard to get reasonably good sound quality. I
don't necessarily mean audiophile quality -- just freedom from heavy
crackling and obvious distortion. Particularly troublesome is that quite a
few records that distort on the loud high notes as if they had been played
with a bad stylus (but they haven't). Considerable experimentation with
tracking pressure doesn't cure this, although it seems to diminish at higher
pressure (like 3 to 4 grams).

Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the crackle
a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Any advice? Apparently, records that were clean when put away in their
original sleeves and jackets 25 years ago aren't clean now!

mc wrote:
Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the crackle
a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Are you overdriving your electronics?

"Joe Kesselman" wrote in message
...
mc wrote:
Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the
crackle a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Are you overdriving your electronics?

That's worth checking. I very much doubt it, but I'll check. I actually
added some attenuation to the phono input of one of the amplifiers to ensure
against this. I have oscilloscopes, etc., and can check.

In article ,
mc wrote:

I've been playing and digitizing my vinyl records from 20 to 30 years ago
and have found it surprisingly hard to get reasonably good sound quality. I
don't necessarily mean audiophile quality -- just freedom from heavy
crackling and obvious distortion. Particularly troublesome is that quite a
few records that distort on the loud high notes as if they had been played
with a bad stylus (but they haven't). Considerable experimentation with
tracking pressure doesn't cure this, although it seems to diminish at higher
pressure (like 3 to 4 grams).

Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the crackle
a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Any advice? Apparently, records that were clean when put away in their
original sleeves and jackets 25 years ago aren't clean now!

I would strongly encourage you to check your stylus for wear, check
the tonearm/cartridge system for proper tracking alignment (use a
tonearm protractor), and check the tonearm for proper anti-skate force
adjustment and for friction-free motion in both horizontal and
vertical directions. It sounds as if you may have mechanical problems
of some sort.

It's possible that your cartridge is failing due to old age. I've
read that some cartridges are subject to age-related deterioration of
the elastomers which support the stylus and cantilever - the
rubber-like elastomers become stiffer with age, and the cartridge can
no longer track high-excursion passages properly. The only good cure
for this seems to be to replace the stylus/cantilever assembly (if
it's meant to be field-replaceable) or have the whole cartridge
repaired or replaced.

When I digitize an LP, I clean it first using a Disk Doctor II
(low-end Nitty Gritty) wet-wash-and-vacuum system, using a homebrew
cleaning solution similar to the original Nitty Gritty liquid (mostly
distilled water, a small amount of isopropanol, and a very small
amount of a low-residue surfactant). If the records are really dirty,
I pre-wash with a stronger detergent solution, wipe it off, then
wet-wash and vacuum with the low-residue liquid. This combination
seems to get the crud off quite nicely, and if the vinyl is in good
condition it'll often be effectively crackle-free.

It's possible that your records are suffering from mold or mildew on
the groove surface. If they were stored in uncontrolled conditions,
and if the humidity in the storage area was high or variable, you
could have gunk growing on 'em. This could cause cracking, and
perhaps even permanent damage to the surface.

Records which have been played in a smoke-filled environment... well,
these may never clean up properly. Tobacco-smoke tar (and residues
from other sorts of smoking materials) can be extremely difficult to
remove from the groove surface. I learned the hard way never to loan
records to friends who smoke :-(

Playback of even clean records can be tricky in conditions of low
humidity, due to problems with static-induced crackle. Possible
solutions for this include increasing the humidity of the room air
(use an evaporator, not a mister!), brushing just before playing with
a conductive-fiber record brush, or using a Staticmaster
(alpha-particle emitter which ionizes the air and drains away the
static).

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

I would strongly encourage you to check your stylus for wear, check
the tonearm/cartridge system for proper tracking alignment (use a
tonearm protractor), and check the tonearm for proper anti-skate force
adjustment and for friction-free motion in both horizontal and
vertical directions. It sounds as if you may have mechanical problems
of some sort.

Yes... I have 2 turntables, one old (1974) and one moderately old (1990) but
low-end (P-mount, no adjustments) and the problem appears on both. A newer,
much better turntable is coming within a few days, with a new cartridge, and
I'm hoping the problem diminishes.

When I digitize an LP, I clean it first using a Disk Doctor II
(low-end Nitty Gritty) wet-wash-and-vacuum system, using a homebrew
cleaning solution similar to the original Nitty Gritty liquid (mostly
distilled water, a small amount of isopropanol, and a very small
amount of a low-residue surfactant).

OK, I can make the liquid, at least. I'll look at the Disk Doctor II.

It's possible that your records are suffering from mold or mildew on
the groove surface. If they were stored in uncontrolled conditions,
and if the humidity in the storage area was high or variable, you
could have gunk growing on 'em. This could cause cracking, and
perhaps even permanent damage to the surface.

Not likely; they were in an air-conditioned house the whole time.

Records which have been played in a smoke-filled environment... well,
these may never clean up properly. Tobacco-smoke tar (and residues
from other sorts of smoking materials) can be extremely difficult to
remove from the groove surface. I learned the hard way never to loan
records to friends who smoke :-(

Again, not a problem. Smoke repels *me* quite effectively.

Playback of even clean records can be tricky in conditions of low
humidity, due to problems with static-induced crackle.

Now *that* is a factor. It is cold here and the indoor humidity is low.

Possible
solutions for this include increasing the humidity of the room air
(use an evaporator, not a mister!), brushing just before playing with
a conductive-fiber record brush, or using a Staticmaster
(alpha-particle emitter which ionizes the air and drains away the
static).

I'll look into that. Thanks.

Dave Platt AE6EO

VY 73
N4TMI

"mc" wrote in message
...
I've been playing and digitizing my vinyl records from 20 to 30 years ago
and have found it surprisingly hard to get reasonably good sound quality.
I don't necessarily mean audiophile quality -- just freedom from heavy
crackling and obvious distortion. Particularly troublesome is that quite
a few records that distort on the loud high notes as if they had been
played with a bad stylus (but they haven't). Considerable experimentation
with tracking pressure doesn't cure this, although it seems to diminish at
higher pressure (like 3 to 4 grams).

Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the
crackle a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Any advice? Apparently, records that were clean when put away in their
original sleeves and jackets 25 years ago aren't clean now!


Do you know the proper tracking pressure for your cartridge? If increasing
tracking force lowers the distortion, you may have had the force too low.
Lower than normal pressure can cause distortion and actually ruin the record
because the needle lifts slightly off the groove wall and slams back down in
to the following rise damaging the groove wall.
John

Do you know the proper tracking pressure for your cartridge? If increasing
tracking force lowers the distortion, you may have had the force too low.
Lower than normal pressure can cause distortion and actually ruin the
record because the needle lifts slightly off the groove wall and slams
back down in to the following rise damaging the groove wall.

Thought of that, but actually, I have to use the specified pressure or
somewhat more. Specified pressures are 1 gram for one of the cartridges and
3 to 5 grams for the other. Otherwise that is exactly what I thought the
problem was. I actually built and calibrated a small balance for measuring
this, checking it by using it to weigh small nuts and washers which I could
also weigh on a laboratory balance.

mc wrote:

I've been playing and digitizing my vinyl records
from 20 to 30 years ago and have found it surprisingly
hard to get reasonably good sound quality.

That was always the challenge. Playing a record took time to learn for
most of us, it certainly did for me.

I don't necessarily mean audiophile quality -- just freedom
from heavy crackling and obvious distortion. Particularly
troublesome is that quite a few records that distort on the
loud high notes as if they had been played with a bad stylus
(but they haven't).

Are the records clean?

What cartridge do you use, and how old is it?

How do you know that the cartridge is correctly aligned in the tonearm?
- link to a cartridge alignment protractor was recently posted in this
newsgroup.

Considerable experimentation with tracking pressure
doesn't cure this, although it seems to diminish at higher
pressure (like 3 to 4 grams).

Yes, yes, yes, but what is the specified tracking force for the
cartridge in question?

Cleaning the record (with a good soak in water) seems to reduce the crackle
a lot. I don't quite know what to do about the distortion.

Wet playback of records is not wise.

Any advice? Apparently, records that were clean when put away in their
original sleeves and jackets 25 years ago aren't clean now!

Same cartridge, exactly the same cartridge? - if so go get an Ortofon
X15 MC, it is a high output moving coil with a benign behaviour on a
real world record collection and it is very tolerant in terms of
tonearm. It is local to where I live ... other participants here
probably suggest something that is local to where they live, make your
pick.

Oh, and if the sleeves were not inserted correctly in the outer jacket,
then records will get dusty over time. Fungus is also a possibility,
there seems to be a fungus for everything, so there is probably one that
lives happily on remnants of old record cosmetics. Such may also have
deteriorated to a goo that needs to be washed off with a suitable
method. I have written about that topic on so many occasions that I will
refer you to googling for it.

There is also a FAQ for the rec.audio.* newstree, it is not that long
ago someone posted it.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

mc wrote:

Do you know the proper tracking pressure for your cartridge?
If increasing tracking force lowers the distortion, you may
have had the force too low.

Could be, but required tracking force setting will depend on actual
tonearm as well as on resulting cartridge resonance.

Lower than normal pressure can cause distortion and actually
ruin the record because the needle lifts slightly off the
groove wall and slams back down in to the following rise
damaging the groove wall.

Yes. It is probably a good moment to remind of the fact that the vinyl
gets heated quite much by the needle tip on contact, that leads to the
vinyl becoming flexible and thus able to return to the original groove
wall shape after the influence of the playback.

Multiple repeated playbacks within short time causes more mis-shaping of
the groove wall than what is recoverable, so while a record may last for
very many repeated plays if only played at most once daily it may get
damaged by a much smaller number of plays in one day.

The problem with wet playback is that it prevents the heatup, and thus
is much more likely to cause the cartridge to work as a chipping tool if
the groove is not perfectly tracked. In the real world it hardly ever
is, simply because the "cuttable" envelope is so much larger than the
"playbable" envelope, as beautifully documented by Shure.

Thought of that, but actually, I have to use the specified
pressure or somewhat more. Specified pressures are 1 gram
for one of the cartridges

As shown by Poul Ladegaard such a cartridge is likely to have quite
large variations of tracking force due to the tone arm resonance except
in the lightest of tonearms. The specification to me indicates a very
old cartridge, because the race for highest compliance and lowest
tracking force stopped with Poul Ladegaards investigation of what really
happened in playback.

That said, it is not uncommon to find that recommended tracking force
needs to be exceeded somewhat to ensure that there is also enough
tracking force on the downhill slopes right after the top of the
mountains. Most people would not worry about 20 percent more, but one
should worry if more than that is needed. It is wise to also look at the
catridge and visually assert whether the amount of flexing is
reasonable. My expectation it that the designer intended the needle-arm
to be in the center of the front hole in the cartridge block during
actual playback.

and 3 to 5 grams for the other.

Depending on lots of things such a cartridge force spec raises the
question of whether it is a disco-type cartridge suitable for cue-back
or an audio cartridge suitable for playback.

Otherwise that is exactly what I thought the problem was.

Back when I played a lot of records I replaced carttridge every two
years, usually on the indication that sound got "loose" and suspecting
that the suspension was getting tired. Some rubber types are likely to
change their machanical properties in say 5 years.

I actually built and calibrated a small balance for measuring
this, checking it by using it to weigh small nuts and washers
which I could also weigh on a laboratory balance.

You have not told us anything, but what problems you have. My
understanding of your problem is that you are trying to use a 25 year
old cartridge and wonder why it doesn't perform as it did back then.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

You have not told us anything, but what problems you have. My
understanding of your problem is that you are trying to use a 25 year
old cartridge and wonder why it doesn't perform as it did back then.

Actually, no, the problems also occur with a cartridge that is about 3 years
old. But a new turntable and cartridge are coming very soon and I'll post
an update.

I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that happen?

In article ,
mc wrote:

I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that happen?

Yes, indeed! The stampers used to press LPs do (and did) wear out
over time... wear is roughly proportional to the number of copies
pressed, I believe. Stampers need to be replaced, periodically, in
order to maintain proper record quality.

My experience back in the late 1970s and early 1980s (based on LPs I
was buying then) was that a lot of the American record labels had
given up caring about pressing quality. They seemed to be running
their presses too fast (too short a fill/cool cycle), which I
understand can cause problems with partial fill of the grooves and can
cause the grooves to distort somewhat if the newly-pressed LP is
released from the stamper too quickly or at too high a temperature. I
bought several albums which had clearly been made from worn stampers -
they were supposed to be replacements for my years-old play-worn
copies of the albums but in some cases sounded *worse* right out of
the jacket than my old copies did!

Also, the quality of the vinyl used by many American labels had
deteriorated. it got a lot worse during the OPEC oil embargo, when
vinyl prices soared and a lot of "re-grind" was melted back into the
record-pressing vinyl stock to stretch out the supply and keep the
cost down. I ended up with one copy of a Mike Oldfield LP which
sounded like sandpaper, and actually had one or two bits of paper
(presumably the label of a ground-up album) sticking up out of the
hardened surface of the LP! Although that was probably the worst time
period for vinyl quality, I don't think that the quality ever really
recovered.

Things got to the point that I'd often have to return one or two
copies of a brand-new LP to the store as defective, before I got one
which was decently quiet and defect-free. For years, I preferred to
buy "parallel import" LPs (e.g. British, German, or Japanese
pressings) - they were 50%-100% more expensive than the US pressings,
but usually sounded quite a bit better (cleaner and quieter). The US
record companies persuaded the courts that such imports were a
violation of their exclusive US copyrights, Customs started cracking
down on parallel imports, and I gave up buying LPs in disgust/protest.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...

I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that
happen?

Yes, indeed! The stampers used to press LPs do (and did) wear out
over time... wear is roughly proportional to the number of copies
pressed, I believe. Stampers need to be replaced, periodically, in
order to maintain proper record quality.

My experience back in the late 1970s and early 1980s (based on LPs I
was buying then) was that a lot of the American record labels had
given up caring about pressing quality. They seemed to be running
their presses too fast (too short a fill/cool cycle), which I
understand can cause problems with partial fill of the grooves and can
cause the grooves to distort somewhat if the newly-pressed LP is
released from the stamper too quickly or at too high a temperature. I
bought several albums which had clearly been made from worn stampers -
they were supposed to be replacements for my years-old play-worn
copies of the albums but in some cases sounded *worse* right out of
the jacket than my old copies did!

I think that's what happened. The album is "Christmas at Clare," with John
Rutter and the choir of Clare College, Cambridge, issued 1979. It's of
interest to me because my friends were in the choir at the time, although
they (or rather their successors) have made much better-sounding CDs since.

It simply never sounded right. Right out of the box, as I recall, it
sounded as if it suffered poor tracking or had been played with a bad
stylus. It still does; the main problem is distortion in the loud high
notes.

It has narrow grooves, with about 30 minutes of music on each side, divided
up into maybe 11 songs, so besides 30 minutes of audio there are about 10
inter-song gaps.

My other records are very crackly, but I think the problem is just static
electricity, because Discwasher clears it right up. So does wet playing,
but as someone pointed out, there's ground for concern that wet playing
increases wear by keeping the vinyl too cool, so I'm reluctant to adopt this
technique.

The turntable is a Technics belt-drive model with P-mount cartridge. The
cartridge is an Audio-Technica AT92ECD with an almost brand new stylus
(which looks fine under a microscope). The tracking pressure is measured at
1.5 grams.

I'm alarmed to hear someone earlier say that playing records is an art.
Like playing a violin? If playing records is an art, I'm glad to move to
CDs, which you just pop into the machine... Unless of course what he meant
was that getting good sound from worn or peculiar records is an art. That I
agree with!

I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that
happen?

Happy news. The record that's giving me trouble ("Carols from Clare") was
reissued on CD under a different title ("The Holly and the Ivy"). In the
process of Googling it, I came across a library catalogue that told me this.
Sure enough, the CD is readily available and I snapped up a used one for $8.

"mc" wrote...
I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that
happen?

Some of them weren't even cut properly. I had a favorite
release from Neil Diamond with which I regularly stumped
the Shure deomonstration sales reps. There was nothing they
could do to track a particular spot on the disk.

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"mc" wrote...
I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that
happen?

Some of them weren't even cut properly. I had a favorite
release from Neil Diamond with which I regularly stumped
the Shure deomonstration sales reps. There was nothing they
could do to track a particular spot on the disk.

OK, I'm convinced that there was a production problem with this disc,
because as far as I recall, it has never sounded decent, and I've always
kept my stylus, etc., in reasonably good condition. It has unusually narrow
grooves -- 30 minutes of music plus 10 between-song gaps on each side. The
good news is, as I said in another message, I've found the CD edition of it,
which has a different title.

Thanks to all for their advice.

"mc" wrote in message
...

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"mc" wrote...
I'm becoming convinced that one of the records simply wasn't pressed
properly; as I recall, it never sounded right. Do things like that
happen?

Some of them weren't even cut properly. I had a favorite
release from Neil Diamond with which I regularly stumped
the Shure deomonstration sales reps. There was nothing they
could do to track a particular spot on the disk.

OK, I'm convinced that there was a production problem with this disc,
because as far as I recall, it has never sounded decent, and I've always
kept my stylus, etc., in reasonably good condition. It has unusually
narrow grooves -- 30 minutes of music plus 10 between-song gaps on each
side. The good news is, as I said in another message, I've found the CD
edition of it, which has a different title.

In fact, looking at this:
http://www.recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm
I see that with this record ("Christmas at Clare," Decca Argo, 1979) they
were really sailing close to the wind:

(1) The Clare College Chapel is a very treble-y environment -- when you're
in there, you hear *lots* of highs and very little bass. The choir's style
is adapted to this. LP recording is not.

(2) Getting 30 minutes of music plus 10 inter-song gaps on one side of an LP
is more than the experts say is advisable (very narrow grooves).

So... it just didn't work... but the CD version seems to be selling
successfully and people say it sounds good. I'll have it in a few days.

mc wrote:
When I digitize an LP, I clean it first using a Disk Doctor II
(low-end Nitty Gritty) wet-wash-and-vacuum system, using a homebrew
cleaning solution similar to the original Nitty Gritty liquid (mostly
distilled water, a small amount of isopropanol, and a very small
amount of a low-residue surfactant).

OK, I can make the liquid, at least. I'll look at the Disk Doctor II.

Should be fine on LPs... but do NOT use alcohol-based cleansers on older
disks, especially 78's. It can damage some of the earlier materials.

Bags Unlimited, which sells archival materials of various kinds, sells
two different record cleaning solutions -- one for vinyl, another for
older recordings. If in doubt, the latter is probably safer. They also
stock two different versions of the Disk Doctor, only one of which is
recommended for 78's. They aren't cheap -- not bad as studio equipment,
a bit high for someone who's just trying to protect a personal collection.

Should be fine on LPs... but do NOT use alcohol-based cleansers on older
disks, especially 78's. It can damage some of the earlier materials.

Understood.

Bags Unlimited, which sells archival materials of various kinds, sells two
different record cleaning solutions -- one for vinyl, another for older
recordings. If in doubt, the latter is probably safer. They also stock two
different versions of the Disk Doctor, only one of which is recommended
for 78's. They aren't cheap -- not bad as studio equipment, a bit high for
someone who's just trying to protect a personal collection.

Thanks. Is Discwasher anti-static liquid available in bulk? Or is there a
good make-it-yourself formula that has the anti-static effect? My first
thought would be to try 1 drop of fabric softener in a liter of distilled
water (perhaps with alcohol and a wetting agent), but I don't know if it
would dry clean.

Peter Larsen wrote:

Oh, and if the sleeves were not inserted correctly in the outer jacket,
then records will get dusty over time. Fungus is also a possibility,
there seems to be a fungus for everything, so there is probably one that
lives happily on remnants of old record cosmetics. Such may also have
deteriorated to a goo that needs to be washed off with a suitable
method. I have written about that topic on so many occasions that I will
refer you to googling for it.

Not to mention that some of those old records crackled when new...right
out of the sleeve.....

jak

There is also a FAQ for the rec.audio.* newstree, it is not that long
ago someone posted it.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen