I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

-- Jason

Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

This audiophile says Denons have better base and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.

I'm not an audiophile, per se, but from what I've read, heard and
experienced, George is spot on about Denons producing a better bass sound
and Yamaha being the better sound processor. At that price range, you
should go for the Yamaha because it sounds like you'd probably have
lower-end speakers that won't handle bass too well anyhow, so might as well
go for the better overall sound.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

This audiophile says Denons have better base and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.

"crazysaybi" wrote in message
...
I'm not an audiophile, per se, but from what I've read, heard and
experienced, George is spot on about Denons producing a better bass sound
and Yamaha being the better sound processor. At that price range, you
should go for the Yamaha because it sounds like you'd probably have
lower-end speakers that won't handle bass too well anyhow, so might as
well
go for the better overall sound.


If Denons produce a better bass sound, and Yamaha have a better surround
processor, are there any of the same comparisions that can be made with the
low end Onkyo and Harmon Kardon receivers? Since the other 2 mentioned here
have areas that they are better at, I was just wondering if these 2 brands
have a "trademark" area.

Thanks for your help,
Matt

Matt said:

If Denons produce a better bass sound, and Yamaha have a better surround
processor, are there any of the same comparisions that can be made with the
low end Onkyo and Harmon Kardon receivers? Since the other 2 mentioned here
have areas that they are better at, I was just wondering if these 2 brands
have a "trademark" area.

My comment about the bass response and surround processing was a
subjective opinion, not a well-known fact. Same for the other guy
who agreed with me. Personally, I'd favor the Denon on just those
two characteristics, but there are probably other factors you value.

That said, my experience with inexpensive HK receivers is they sound
"soft", i.e. much less chance of a glassy or tinkly sound in high
frequencies. Also, I've found that deep bass that sounds jarring on
some systems is also a little softer with an HK. However..... it's
been at least 2 years since I spent any time with one.

No opinion about Onkyos.

P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.

P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.

One of the nice things about having an odd name is that it reveals how
profoundly un-clever people are in coming up with abusive variations.

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.

In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what I'm
talking about.

The fact is, Yamaha products rarely received favorable reviews in the audiophile
press. If you don't like that, tough, but that's the way it is.

Some years ago I reviewed the Yamaha DSP-1 (an ambience synthesizer) for
Stereophile. I "assumed" no one would be foolish enough to run the front
channels of their system through such a product, regardless of the manufacturer.
Unfortunately, I neglected to drive this point home and received a number of
brickbats from readers complaining about how the DSP-1 degraded the sound of
their system.

I remember a Yamaha surround processor whose rear channels sounded as if someone
had thrown a blanket over the speakers.

If I wanted a "modest" product from a Japanese manufacturer, I wouldn't waste my
time listening to Yamaha when there's Denon and Onkyo, two companies that _do_
get consistently good reviews in the audiophile press. In fact, The Abso!ute
Sound recently remarked that a fairly expensive ($4K) Denon processor was
sonically superior to a number of more-expensive components from high-end
audiophile companies.

There is one other factor, of course... If this customer is so worried about the
sound quality of a stinking receiver (I spent more than three times that for my
phono pickup, and that was at accommodation price), why doesn't he borrow the
units and listen to them, hmmm? That's how you learn. That's how you make the
decisions that are right for _you_.

This audiophile says Denons have better base...

Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


This audiophile says Denons have better base...

Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?

Regrettably, that's the extent of Middius' understanding of audio.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:28:25 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
.. .


This audiophile says Denons have better base...

Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?

Regrettably, that's the extent of Middius' understanding of audio.

Welcome back, Arnold. Just goes to show that the vacation didn't do
anything for your outlook.

dave weil said:

Welcome back, Arnold. Just goes to show that the vacation didn't do
anything for your outlook.

Ask Mr. **** if he's received the court papers yet. Of course, it's
a well established pattern for him to be extra-nasty after a
"vacation".

Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

This audiophile says Denons have better bass and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?

2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output

3) Does the Denon remote not have TV Input button? No VCR record
button? Do the number keys have no use in VCR mode (i.e. selecting
channels).

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

I have a Yamaha 5550, and love it to bits. It's my first system, and I was
working to a budget (no sub) but it's great for the money.

Having quickly looked at the Denon specs (and obviously exhibting bias
here), if it bothers you, neither amp has true 6.1 outputs, but while the
Denon doesn't appear to have any 6.1 capability, the 5550 can handle 6.1
inputs by converting them to 5.1 and using a 'virtual' 6th speaker (which
basically means output from the two rear surrounds). It's not ideal, but it
does work surprisingly well.

2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output

My DVD player only had coaxial output, and after being initially concerned,
I found this isn't something to worry about at all. Yes it has coaxial
input, but not for the default DVD channel. I think the default coaxial
input is CD. However, it's *very* easy to reconfigure the input labels in
the menu system so that the DVD signal is read from the coaxial input. The
manual tells you how to do it.

The remote is good, though how compatible you can make it with your other
equipment will depend upon the make of equipment. It works brilliantly with
my Sony DVD, but not at all with my, ahem, Schneider TV.

Matrix 6.1, changing inputs, and remote configuration are all in the manual.

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?

It translates into no difference.


Espen B

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?

Not at all.


2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.

Why worry about having two optical players?

Your DVD player can probably play CD's too so it's not a problem. I have
a Yamaha receiver with 3 optical and one coax input.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?


Not at all.



2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.


Why worry about having two optical players?

I auditioned Denon, Yamaha, Sony and Marantz before I decided on the
Yamaha receiver for my home surround system. It sounded as good as units
costing 4 times as much. It also has pre amp outs for all channels so I
can bypass the Yamaha power amp. It has a very comprehensive feature set
AND you can disable the DSP processing. Feature for feature I think that
a $400-500 Yamaha is the way to go. Go to a Hi Fi store and audition
them through the same set of speakers.

Andrew M. wrote:

Your DVD player can probably play CD's too so it's not a problem. I have
a Yamaha receiver with 3 optical and one coax input.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?



Not at all.



2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.



Why worry about having two optical players?

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

William Sommerwerck said:

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.

But we're supposed to the tell the guy what his preference _should_ be.


George M. Middius wrote...

William Sommerwerck said:

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
George M. Middius wrote...
William Sommerwerck said:




Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.

But we're supposed to the tell the guy what his preference _should_ be.

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions, not
what his preference should be.

That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions,
not what his preference should be.

No, he's asking us to tell him what to buy. He's looking to us as "experts" to
give him the absolute truth so he can buy the "right" product.

Why?

--


There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Why?

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.

In alt.home-theater.misc William Sommerwerck wrote:
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Why?

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines,


Wow, talk about praising with faint damns.

Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants. Since he specifically mentioned
that he's interested in Pro Logic II, one thing to check into is
the configurability of the Pro Logic II mode. It's not price-correlated.
I have a Yammy 5540 and a Harmon Kardon AVR520; the latter cost
several hundred more than the former, and has more features and power, but
happens to be *less* configurable in DPL II made than the Yammy. The Yammies
allow you to adjust 'panorama' and a few other
user-configurable features of DPL II , whereas the H-K has
a 'fixed' DPL II config. Don't know about the Denon.




--
-S.

Steven Sullivan said:

Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants.

Believe it or not, even $300 receivers can be distinguished
sonically. Is sound quality a "feature"?


Since he specifically mentioned
that he's interested in Pro Logic II, one thing to check into is
the configurability of the Pro Logic II mode.

Cue Krooger to natter on snottily about digital media.

Reasonable. I just hate when people don't qualify there remarks.

Clay

--


There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Why?

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever
gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and
Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I
reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.

Uh huh... Check out this positive Yamaha RX-Z1 review

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...haRXZ1-p1.html

AH is one of the more popular [sans e-commerce] home theater review
websites. While it's not a magazine, according to Alexa.com it gets more
traffic than Sterophile.com and it doesn't have a magazine to market itself.

Your 25 year old pre-DVD experience notwithstanding, I have never heard of
Yamaha having a poor reputation, and we talk every week with reps from
Denon, Onkyo, Integra Research, Tannoy, Sherbourn and Marantz to name a
few...

A quick glance at any of the online audiophile forums will also confirm
this. No one dogs Yamaha except the elitists who listen to tube amps and buy
$5000 speaker wire so their 30 year-old LPs sound "fruity".

- Clint DeBoer
CD Media Website Design & Marketing
www.cdmedia.com

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Why?

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever
gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and
Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I
reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha
products have ever gotten favorable reviews in the American
audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and Onkyo products
commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround
products I reviewed for Stereophile were Yamaha.

Most audiophile rags will publish a great review of any product for which
the manufacturer has taken out a 4-color, full page ad.

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:05:41 -0400, "Robert L. Bass"
wrote:

Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha
products have ever gotten favorable reviews in the American
audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and Onkyo products
commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround
products I reviewed for Stereophile were Yamaha.

Most audiophile rags will publish a great review of any product for which
the manufacturer has taken out a 4-color, full page ad.

Did Jesus whisper this in your ear?

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Rubbish.
If you want "opinion", listen to this poster. If you want helpful advice,
listen to everyone else.

Don't even THINK about buying anything
Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Rubbish.
If you want "opinion", listen to this poster.
If you want helpful advice, listen to everyone else.

Hmm. I only offer opinions. For the most part they're educated opinions
but they are still opinions. That said, in my opinion the gentleman is
wrong. I've owned and installed Denon and Yamaha equipment and I find
Yamaha to be superior. My Yamaha RXV3000 is, for the money, among the best
around.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================

No offense, but blanket statements like that are just plain bad advice.

I understand you may have had some bad listening experiences with Yamaha 25
years ago, but the company has changed its product line just a little bit
since then. I'm a fan of free speech, and you can continue saying whatever
you like. But to write off an entire company is something that everyone here
should take with a grain of salt - a very small grain.

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching, it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.

I can also say the same for the Denon 5803.

As for your price point. Give them both a listen if you can, and see if you
like to listen to DSP when you watch movies. If you do, then the Yamaha will
have an edge. If you tastes are for mostly music, the Denon may sound better
to you.

- Clint DeBoer
CD Media Website Design & Marketing
www.cdmedia.com

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

"hawke" wrote in message
...

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a
certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching,
it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.

The Z9 is FINALLY going to be a worthy contender since they now have adopted
THX.


Espen B

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:39:44 +0200, "Espen Braathen"
wrote:


"hawke" wrote in message
m...

I have found the Yamaha line to be exceptional once you get above a
certain
price point. Their RX-V3000, 3300, V1, and Z1 receivers offer excceptional
quality. The new Z9 set to be released any day now offers high-performance
burr-brown 24-bit DACs for all 11 channels. While it lacks DVI switching,
it
all but eclipses separates in its price class in terms of quality and
feature set.

The Z9 is FINALLY going to be a worthy contender since they now have adopted
THX.

THX is no guarantee of worthiness, but is often a guarantee of a
licensing fee to increase the cost of a piece of equipment.

the Z9 is certainly a nice looking unit, and would be equally nice
without the THX stamp on the front

Grant Kinsley MD


Espen B

I´m amazed that this thread has 230 messages or more!

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

An audiophile would spend the $400 on a better stereo amp and actually get
decent tone.

Sugarite said:

An audiophile would spend the $400 on a better stereo amp and actually get
decent tone.

I think the guy wants a surround amp. But look, here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

and another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

and some lower-priced options:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973


There are also pre/pros available ebay, although not many with DPL2.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 974

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 974

Okay everyone, I thought I might put an end to this "heated" debate by
saying that I bought the Denon AVR-1603 yesterday. My choice was
relatively simple; unfortunately I wasn't able to sample both at the
same time, because they were being sold by separate dealers. But the
dealer selling the Denon was able to give me $100 trade-in for my
Pioneer dolby digital (non pro-logic II, non DTS), so I got the Denon
for $400 CAN. I got the dealer to showcase the receiver with the same
Paradigm Titan fronts that I currently own, and a CC-170 centre which
I also eventually bought! Unfortunately the Yamaha dealer didn't have
Paradigm speakers and their store and wouldn't offer me a tradein, so
I never even got to test the unit out. In the end I think I got a
steal because the 1603 was already marked down significantly because
they were the last two units in the store. They said once they were
gone, they'd get teh 1604s in which would sell back at regular price
of around $650.

So far I'm quite happy with the Denon. Finally listening to the DTS
surround tracks on my DVDs makes a world of a difference.
Unfortunately the numbers on the remote don't work in VCR mode, which
is a shame because I use my VCR like a cable box to extend the limited
channel range on my old TV. Oh well, I guess that means I'll have to
upgrade my TV soon!

Thanks for all the "opinions" strewn about in this thread. They
were.... insightful. ;-)

-- Jason

"Jason Wong" wrote in message
om...
Okay everyone, I thought I might put an end to this "heated" debate by
saying that I bought the Denon AVR-1603 yesterday. My choice was
relatively simple; unfortunately I wasn't able to sample both at the
same time, because they were being sold by separate dealers. But the
dealer selling the Denon was able to give me $100 trade-in for my
Pioneer dolby digital (non pro-logic II, non DTS), so I got the Denon
for $400 CAN. I got the dealer to showcase the receiver with the same
Paradigm Titan fronts that I currently own, and a CC-170 centre which
I also eventually bought! Unfortunately the Yamaha dealer didn't have
Paradigm speakers and their store and wouldn't offer me a tradein, so
I never even got to test the unit out. In the end I think I got a
steal because the 1603 was already marked down significantly because
they were the last two units in the store. They said once they were
gone, they'd get teh 1604s in which would sell back at regular price
of around $650.

So far I'm quite happy with the Denon. Finally listening to the DTS
surround tracks on my DVDs makes a world of a difference.
Unfortunately the numbers on the remote don't work in VCR mode, which
is a shame because I use my VCR like a cable box to extend the limited
channel range on my old TV. Oh well, I guess that means I'll have to
upgrade my TV soon!

Thanks for all the "opinions" strewn about in this thread. They
were.... insightful. ;-)


But useless in making your decision



-- Jason